skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 The only statements I question are those that concern A.T. Jones and Dr. kellogg knowing how the apostate leaders despised those men seeing that they could not bring them under their control. (T.M.361,366) This infuriated them and they were willing to go to whatever lengths to get rid of them. These men worked in union with W.C. White who had become amenable to them and the truth is that the Lord gave them the desire of their hearts just as He gave Ancient Israel what they craved. A.G. Daniells and W.C. White will have a lot to answer for. I feel sorry for Mrs. White who had to live in the midst of it all. Unless one reads "An Appeal" by A.T. Jones, (from What Seventh-day Adventists believe forum, page 2) he will never get the right idea as to what she was put through and what the Lord allowed and therefore will not be in a position to discern what really happened to A.T. Jones and to Dr. Kellogg as to the relation between nature and nature's God. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Sky, your position on this reminds me of your position that God does not personally take any action to discipline mankind. He simply leaves them to the devices of Satan who actually does the dirty work. It's a very subtle thing but I've come to believe that theology denies the power of an active God, ready and willing to take personal action. It sounds nice, that God is above such things, but I think it's misleading. Very subtle and a difficult subject to deal with. I personally DO believe God takes an active roll in some of the destruction we see in the bible, and in other cases allows satan to have his way as well. Like the final destruction of the wicked when they attack the New Jerusalem, for instance, that is God taking an active roll. Personally dealing with the end result and destruction of the wicked. God is love, but make no mistake, He is not to be taken lightly because of that. He is also to be feared, respected. He will, can and does take decisive action to correct a problem when the need arises. I'm not sure what the end result is of a theology that suggests God does not take any personal action, that He simply "waits, watches and lets other's do His work." But somehow, it leaves me with the feeling that it denies the power of God. I see the same possibility with Kelloggs teaching, it's very subtle and difficult to refute. I accept by faith the end result that Ellen White says it will lead to, a full denial of God. I don't pretend to know exactly how that would work, but I believe it best not to touch the unclean thing.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Club, to acknowledge the continual working of God in nature by the Holy Spirit does not lead way from God but to God! I suggest you prayerfully read page 14 of the book Education until the truth is impressed upon your soul. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 ....As to whether anyone on her staff, or in her own family, or connected in any way with her specific work that is a different matter. I can see where such persons would easily line up with the "Brethren" in their bid for money and power. Some may have been involved to advance their own power and agendas, while their may have been others who thought honestly by siding with the "Brethren" that they were supporting God and as such further the "Work" that would bring Jesus back here! This is all based on conjecture and has no factual foundation. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Sky says, "Club, to acknowledge the continual working of God in nature by the Holy Spirit does not lead way from God but to God!" Is this the end result of studying Kelloggs book? NO!!!! Not according to the prophet. I suggest you read again what she has to say about Kellogg until the truth is impressed upon your soul! Sky says, "Club, if you wish to discuss the principles of God's dealing with men, we can do it in another thread." I understand your position on that, there is no need for further discourse with myself on it. Here or in some other thread. Short version: I think your theology on that is wrong, having given it some thought, over time.
miz3 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 Of course Ellen White was not above or equal to the Bible in authority. No one is suggesting otherwise. But the reason was not that she was "constantly expressing her own opinions." What she said about Dr. Kellogg was due to visions and dreams that God gave her. She wasn't merely expressing her own personal opinions. This is made obvious by a close reading of the communications between Mrs. White and Dr. Kellogg. The reason Ellen White was not above or equal to the Bible is that the canon was already closed, and all prophets coming after the closure of the canon must be judged by the canon. All prophets are judged by the previous true prophets of God. This is the same with Ellen White. So the Bible is the measuring-stick of all doctrine and faith. I did quote Scripture! In fact the Scripture I quoted stated that God does indeed live and dwell in His Creation. Thus, my Scripture trumps your assertions of what Ellen White is saying. This is according to your standard stated above!
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Sky says, "Club, to acknowledge the continual working of God in nature by the Holy Spirit does not lead way from God but to God!" Is this the end result of studying Kelloggs book? NO!!!! Not according to the prophet. I suggest you read again what she has to say about Kellogg until the truth is impressed upon your soul! _____________ What is important is the truth. Do you believe that God by the Spirit is working in and through all, moving in all things according to His will or not? That is the question. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Sky says,"Club, to acknowledge the continual working of God in nature by the Holy Spirit does not lead way from God but to God!" Is this the end result of studying Kelloggs book? NO!!!! Not according to the prophet. I suggest you read again what she has to say about Kellogg until the truth is impressed upon your soul! Sky says, "Club, if you wish to discuss the principles of God's dealing with men, we can do it in another thread." I understand your position on that, there is no need for further discourse with myself on it. Here or in some other thread. Short version: I think your theology on that is wrong, having given it some thought, over time. I believe what I read. "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown... The Spirit of God persistently rejected is at last withdrawn from the sinner and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and emnity of Satan." G.C.36. These are the first principles which teach us how to read the language of God in the Bible when it comes to the work of punishing and destroying. These principles are true at all time for God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Actually that is NOT the question. The question is: Who believes Ellen White is inspired on her counsel concerning Kellogg and who doesn't believe it?
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 ....to acknowledge the continual working of God in nature by the Holy Spirit does not lead way from God but to God! I suggest you prayerfully read page 14 of the book Education until the truth is impressed upon your soul. Don't you see the difference between Ellen White's and the Bible's teachings, and the teachings of Dr. Kellogg? God continually working in nature is not the same as God actually, really, and truly being personally in the things of nature. Ellen White is saying that life is a manifestation of the power of God. Kellogg, on the other hand, is saying that God is actually and personally present in nature. Kellogg says that God dwells in all men. Ellen White says this is wrong. The Holy Spirit is not dwelling in all nature or in all men. Quote: We are living in an age of great light; but much that is called light is opening the way for the wisdom and arts of Satan. Many things will be presented that appear to be true, and yet they need to be carefully considered with much prayer; for they may be specious devices of the enemy. The path of error often appears to lie close to the path of truth. It is hardly distinguishable from the path that leads to holiness and heaven. But the mind enlightened by the Holy Spirit may discern that it is diverging from the right way. After a while the two are seen to be widely separated. {8T 290.5} John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Actually that is NOT the question. The question is: Who believes Ellen White is inspired on her counsel concerning Kellogg and who doesn't believe it? I believe what is inspired but there are some serious questions as to what the apostate leaders have done with the help of W.C. White to get rid of men like A.T. Jones and Dr. Kellogg whom they could not bring under their control. You and John317 claim to be on the side of truth and yet so far it is clear that you do not discern the difference between truth and error on this subject of GOD IN NATURE. Sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Ellen White is saying that life is a manifestation of the power of God... John317 Wrong, John, this is a misquote. She does not merely say that life is a manifestation of the power of God but "the manifestation of God Himself." M.H.397. And that is through the Spirit and the Spirit is God. sky "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself." M.H.397. "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 This is all based on conjecture and has no factual foundation. Did I say different? NO! NO! NO! I was merely stating that is entirely possible that...... I never stated that it was fact. Just that it was realistically possible!
Administrators Gail Posted July 13, 2011 Administrators Posted July 13, 2011 It just reminds me of the Catholic view of the Eucharist... I read Chiniquy's book, "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome" about the part where people were dropping Christ into the mud and the rats were eating Christ because of some happenings with the communion host. They believed that the host was the actual body of Christ. I just read and rejected a book that stated that since the Holy Spirit dwells inside of us all we would have to do to talk to God is to commune with the Spirit inside of us. That, too, sounds like what New Age tries to get us to do, reach inside of us for answers. Why not- if the Holy Spirit is dwelling there already? I don't like to dwell on the subject on the mystery of who God is too much, as I don't believe we can fully grasp it. But I'm wary of a fine line between God and Satan when it comes to powers, especially when it concerns powers in us or anything else. The Holy Spirit works mightily with power, seeds have life in them, the sun has energy, but are the actual power, literal life and energy God themselves? Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Administrators Gail Posted July 13, 2011 Administrators Posted July 13, 2011 Ellen White is saying that life is a manifestation of the power of God... John317 Wrong, John, this is a misquote. She does not merely say that life is a manifestation of the power of God but "the manifestation of God Himself." M.H.397. And that is through the Spirit and the Spirit is God. sky "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself." M.H.397. That is how I understood it- a manifestation. Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 I believe what is inspired but there are some serious questions as to what the apostate leaders have done with the help of W.C. White to get rid of men like A.T. Jones and Dr. Kellogg whom they could not bring under their control. OK, "serious questions." However, you and miz3 talk as if you know for a fact that Ellen White wrote letters and testimonies that weren't true or that someone wrote them in her name. This is a very serious charge and accusation, and such accusations should be supported by proof, not be based on mere conjecture and suppositions. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 Ellen White is saying that life is a manifestation of the power of God... John317 Wrong, John, this is a misquote. She does not merely say that life is a manifestation of the power of God but "the manifestation of God Himself." M.H.397. And that is through the Spirit and the Spirit is God. sky "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself." M.H.397. That is how I understood it- a manifestation. That is how you understood it, "a manifestation" but the Lord says, "the manifestation of God Himself." Who do we believe? ourselves or God? sky :) "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 I believe what is inspired but there are some serious questions as to what the apostate leaders have done with the help of W.C. White to get rid of men like A.T. Jones and Dr. Kellogg whom they could not bring under their control. OK, "serious questions." However, you and miz3 talk as if you know for a fact that Ellen White wrote letters and testimonies that weren't true or that someone wrote them in her name. This is a very serious charge and accusation, and such accusations should be supported by proof, not be based on mere conjecture and suppositions. The only proof we have is by comparing statement with statement. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 It just reminds me of the Catholic view of the Eucharist. Gail _________ Gail, what do you understand is the difference between the Catholic teaching on this and what Mrs. White taught in Desire of Ages, p.660? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 Ellen White is saying that life is a manifestation of the power of God... Originally Posted By: skyblue888 Wrong, John, this is a misquote. She does not merely say that life is a manifestation of the power of God but "the manifestation of God Himself." M.H.397. And that is through the Spirit and the Spirit is God. "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself." M.H.397. Originally Posted By: Gail That is how I understood it- a manifestation. Yes, me too. Let's look at the whole quote in context. It is saying something entirely different from what Kellogg taught. He taught that God Himself is actually and truly present in the things of nature, including all humans. Ellen White denied this. (MH 428) There's an important distinction between "life being the manifestation of God Himself" and "nature being the actual presence of God Himself." Quote: Let the youth be impressed with the thought that they are not their own. They belong to Christ. They are the purchase of His blood, the claim of His love. They live because He keeps them by His power. Their time, their strength, their capabilities are His, to be developed, to be trained, to be used for Him. {MH 396.5} Next to the angelic beings, the human family, formed in the image of God, are the noblest of His created works. God desires them to become all that He has made it possible for them to be, and to do their very best with the powers He has given them. {MH 397.1} Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life. Precious are its opportunities, and earnestly should they be improved. Once lost, they are gone forever. {MH 397.2} Before us God places eternity, with its solemn realities, and gives us a grasp on immortal, imperishable themes. He presents valuable, ennobling truth, that we may advance in a safe and sure path, in pursuit of an object worthy of the earnest engagement of all our capabilities. {MH 397.3} God looks into the tiny seed that He Himself has formed, and sees wrapped within it the beautiful flower, the shrub, or the lofty, wide-spreading tree. So does He see the possibilities in every human being. We are here for a purpose. God has given us His plan for our life, and He desires us to reach the highest standard of development. {MH 397.4} Also consider these very important statements from Ellen White: Quote: We are living in an age of great light; but much that is called light is opening the way for the wisdom and arts of Satan. Many things will be presented that appear to be true, and yet they need to be carefully considered with much prayer; for they may be specious devices of the enemy. The path of error often appears to lie close to the path of truth. It is hardly distinguishable from the path that leads to holiness and heaven. But the mind enlightened by the Holy Spirit may discern that it is diverging from the right way. After a while the two are seen to be widely separated. {8T 290.5} Pantheistic Theories Already there are coming in among our people spiritualistic teachings that will undermine the faith of those who give heed to them. The theory that God is an essence pervading all nature is one of Satan's most subtle devices. It misrepresents God and is a dishonor to His greatness and majesty. {8T 291.1} Pantheistic theories are not sustained by the word of God. The light of His truth shows that these theories are soul-destroying agencies. Darkness is their element, sensuality their sphere. They gratify the natural heart and give license to inclination. Separation from God is the result of accepting them. {8T 291.2} Our condition through sin has become preternatural, and the power that restores us must be supernatural, else it has no value. There is but one power that can break the hold of evil from the hearts of men, and that is the power of God in Jesus Christ. Only through the blood of the Crucified One is there cleansing from sin. His grace alone can enable us to resist and subdue the tendencies of our fallen nature. This power the spiritualistic theories concerning God make of no effect. If God is an essence pervading all nature, then He dwells in all men; and in order to attain holiness, man has only to develop the power that is within him. {8T 291.3} John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members phkrause Posted July 13, 2011 Members Posted July 13, 2011 Exactly. This is different from the way Kellogg expressed it. He is saying that God is REALLY, ACTUALLY, TRULY and IN FACT in the things of nature. There's a clear difference between this and what Ellen White is saying. I have to agree with that also Gail & John. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 The question is:Who believes Ellen White is inspired on her counsel concerning Kellogg and who doesn't believe it? I believe it. The evidence proves it. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Administrators Gail Posted July 13, 2011 Administrators Posted July 13, 2011 I'm also puzzled as to how EGW, having been shown the truth about the private lives of so many, could have been duped. This just doesn't add up. Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
miz3 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 Can God be separated from His Power as if His power is some sort of separate entity? If that is so then God's power is and has been "derived" from something else!
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