WAS JOHN HARVEY KELLOGG A PANTHEIST?

[ClubV12]

"Are we willing to acknowledge the possibility that part of the omega of apostasy would involve the apostate leaders to be more than ready to forge "testimonies" to bring certain men under their control?

sky"

Actually, I already acknowledged that in a previous post! That some of the "brethren" may have delighted in Kelloggs downfall and did what they could to twist the truth and expedite his fall. But that doesn't change for a moment Ellen Whites position of the teachings of Kellogg being "dangerous".

[skyblue888]

Okay, let us say these statements about Dr. Kellogg are truly from the Lord. Now let us study strictly from the Testimonies what is said about nature and nature's God so that we will see the difference between what is pantheism and what is not pantheism.

I am willing to do this and only study what the Tesimonies teach regarding this.

Are you willing to do this?

sky

[Gordon1]

Meaning Ellen White is wrong Gordon?

No, Ellen White was not wrong, nor did she change her doctrine.

I've not read that she or Jones claimed to be experts on 1888.

It's a holy subject which most SDAs of the time misunderstood. And they in turn laid down most of the history which is read today.

[skyblue888]

"If any men thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know it." 1 Cor.8:2."

Yes, yes Sky, never the less, I stand on my statement of being somewhat of an expert on the subject of 1888. I don't consider that boasting, I consider it a fact. Especially if you apply it to the typical SDA's I've conversed with on the subject!

I have studied the 1888 message for more than 30 years and I will not, and never will, consider myself an expert on it even if the Lord has opened my eyes to see some very interesting things about it.

sky

[John317]

Are we willing to acknowledge the possibility that part of the omega of apostasy would involve the apostate leaders to be more than ready to forge "testimonies" to bring certain men under their control?

In other words, you're asking if we're willing to jettison Ellen White's counsels regarding The Living Temple and Dr. Kellogg's beliefs and teachings.

That would be doing exactly what Eve did: discard God's direct instructions and investigate what God has told us to leave alone. All based on a "possibility" or a "suggestion" that Ellen White did not write those counsels.

[skyblue888]

"The only key to the mysteries that surround us is to acknowledge in them all the presence and power of God." D.A.606.

"The divine Spirit which the Lord promised to send is the presence and power of God." E.G. White, Signs of the Times, Nov.23,1891.

These two statements clearly teach that God is present and working in all creation through the divine Spirit, "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." Education, 14.

Do we believe this?

sky

I believe it!

Club.

Okay we both believe that the divine Spirit is the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all, moving in all things according to God's will.

That is what I am after, nothing else. In other words, the power that works all through nature and that sustains all things is not a mere impersonal force but the personal presence of God through the Holy Spirit, the immediate Agency of God.

sky

[John317]

Now let us study strictly from the Testimonies what is said about nature and nature's God so that we will see the difference between what is pantheism and what is not pantheism.

I am willing to do this and only study what the Tesimonies teach regarding this.

Are you willing to do this?

Sure. I wouldn't study what Kellogg taught. But I would study what Ellen White wrote on the topic.

[John317]

I think it's best to read her in context and use her language. One thing Ellen White is not saying is that God lives in every man or that God is in the trees or in the water we drink. She categorically denies that she teaches this.

[John317]

The things of nature are the Lord's silent ministers, given to us to teach us spiritual truths. They speak to us of the love of God and declare the wisdom of the great Master Artist. {AH 146.3}

I love the beautiful flowers. They are memories of Eden, pointing to the blessed country into which, if faithful, we shall soon enter. The Lord is leading my mind to the health-giving properties of the flowers and trees. {AH 147.1}

[ClubV12]

Tough crowd here tonight... "humble" experts abound! :)

[skyblue888]

John you believe that the Spirit is God in the highest sense, do you not?

"Where shall I go from Your Spirit? Where shall I flee from Your presence?" Ps.139:7.

"The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4); yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present." Education, 132.

The Spirit is God in the highest sense. Wherever the Spirit is, there is God. She says that the divine Spirit is the presence and power of God and that He is everywhere present working in and through all, moving in all things according to His will.

The Spirit who is also God is not the flower but He is moving in the flower, working in the flower. The Spirit is the power that causes the seed to spring into life and to develop and bear fruit. The Spirit is the power that turns the bud to flower and the flower into fruit. So the Spirit is the power that upholds all nature and He is also working in man causing the heart to beat and breath to follow breath. Every pulsation of the heart is an evidence of the care of Him in whom we live and move and have our being. Every nerve and muscle in the living organism is kept in order and activity by the Spirit, the power of an ever-present God.

sky

[John317]

Many are the ways in which God is seeking to make himself known to us and to bring us into communion with him. Nature speaks to our senses without ceasing. The open heart will be impressed with the love and glory of God as revealed through the works of his hands. The listening ear can hear and understand the communications of God through the things of nature. The green fields, the lofty trees, the buds and flowers, the passing cloud, the falling rain, the babbling brook, the glories of the heavens, speak to our hearts, and invite us to become acquainted with him who made them all. {CE 54.1}

Our Saviour bound up his precious lessons with the things of nature. The trees, the birds, the flowers of the valley, the hills, the lakes, and the beautiful heavens, as well as the incidents and surroundings of daily life, were all linked with the words of truth, that his lessons might thus be often recalled to mind, even amid the busy cares of man's life of toil. {CE 54.2}

God would have his children appreciate his works, and delight in the simple, quiet beauty with which he has adorned our earthly home. He is a lover of the beautiful, and above all that is outwardly attractive he loves beauty of character; he would have us cultivate purity and simplicity, the quiet graces of the flowers. {CE 54.3}

If we will but listen, God's created works will teach us precious lessons of obedience and trust. From the stars that in their trackless course through space, follow from age to age their appointed path, down to the minutest atom, the things of nature obey the Creator's will. And God cares for everything and sustains everything that he has created. He who upholds the unnumbered worlds throughout

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immensity, at the same time cares for the wants of the little brown sparrow that sings its humble song without a fear. When men go forth to their daily toil, as when they engage in prayer; when they lie down at night, and when they rise in the morning; when the rich man feasts in his palace, or when the poor man gathers his children about the scanty board, each is tenderly watched by the heavenly Father. No tears are shed that God does not notice. There is no smile that he does not mark. {CE 54.4}

If we would but fully believe this, all undue anxieties would be dismissed. Our lives would not be filled with disappointment as now; for everything, whether great or small, would be left in the hands of God, who is not perplexed by the multiplicity of cares, or overwhelmed by their weight. We would then enjoy a rest of soul to which many have long been strangers. {CE 55.1}

As your senses delight in the attractive loveliness of the earth, think of the world that is to come, that shall never know the blight of sin and death; where the face of nature will no more wear the shadow of the curse. Let your imagination picture the home of the saved, and remember that it will be more glorious than your brightest imagination can portray. In the varied gifts of God in nature we see but the faintest gleaming of his glory. It is written, "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." [1 Corinthians 2:9.] {CE 55.2}

[John317]

In the study of the sciences also, we are to obtain a knowledge of the Creator. All true science is but an interpretation of the handwriting of God in the material world. Science brings from her research only fresh evidences of the wisdom and power of God. Rightly understood, both the book of nature and the written word make us acquainted with God by teaching us something of the wise and beneficent laws through which he works. {CE 66.2}

The student should be led to see God in all the works of creation. Teachers should copy the example of the Great Teacher, who from the familiar scenes of nature drew illustrations that simplified his teachings, and impressed them more deeply upon

67

the minds of his hearers. The birds caroling in the leafy branches, the flowers of the valley, the lofty trees, the fruitful lands, the springing grain, the barren soil, the setting sun, gilding the heavens with its golden beams,--all served as means of instruction. He connected the visible works of the Creator with the words of life which he spoke, that whenever these objects should be presented to the eyes of his hearers, their thoughts might revert to the lessons of truth he had linked with them. {CE 66.3}

The impress of Deity, manifest in the pages of revelation, is seen upon the lofty mountains, the fruitful valleys, the broad, deep ocean. The things of nature speak to man of his Creator's love. He has linked us to himself by unnumbered tokens in heaven and in earth. This world is not all sorrow and misery. "God is love," [1 John 4:8.] is written upon every opening bud, upon the petals of every flower, and upon every spire of grass. Though the curse of sin has caused the earth to bring forth thorns and thistles, there are flowers upon the thistles, and the thorns are hidden by roses. All things in nature testify to the tender, fatherly care of our God, and to his desire to make his children happy. His prohibitions and injunctions are not intended merely to display his authority, but in all that he does, he has the well-being of his children in view. He does not require them to give up anything that it would be for their best interest to retain. {CE 67.1}

[John317]

The plan of salvation had its place in the counsels of the Infinite from all eternity. The gospel is the revelation of God's love to men, and means everything that is essential to the happiness and well-being of humanity. The work of God in the earth is of immeasurable importance, and it is Satan's special object to crowd it out of sight and mind, that he may make his specious devices effectual in the destruction of those for whom Christ died. It is his purpose to cause the discoveries of men to be exalted above the wisdom of God. When the mind is engrossed with the conceptions and theories of men to the exclusion of the wisdom of God, it is stamped with idolatry. Science, falsely so-called, has been exalted above God, nature above its Maker, and how can God look upon such wisdom? {CE 83, 84}

There should be a settled belief in the divine authority of God's holy word. The Bible is not to be tested by men's ideas of science. Human knowledge is an unreliable guide. Skeptics who read the Bible for the sake of caviling, may, through an imperfect comprehension of either science or revelation, claim

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to find contradictions between them; but rightly understood, they are in perfect harmony. Moses wrote under the guidance of the Spirit of God; and a correct theory of geology will never claim discoveries that cannot be reconciled with his statements. All truth, whether in nature or in revelation, is consistent with itself in all its manifestations. {CE 193.3}

In the word of God many queries are raised that the most profound scholars can never answer. Attention is called to these subjects to show us how much there is, even among the common things of every-day life, that finite minds, with all their boasted wisdom, can never fully understand. {CE 194.1}

Yet men of science think that they can comprehend the wisdom of God, that which he has done or can do. The idea largely prevails that he is restricted by his own laws. Men either deny or ignore his existence, or think to explain everything, even the operation of his Spirit upon the human heart; and they no longer reverence his name, or fear his power. They do not believe in the supernatural, not understanding God's laws, or his infinite power to work his will through them. As commonly used, the term "laws of nature" comprises what men have been able to discover with regard to the laws that govern the physical world; but how limited is their knowledge, and how vast the field in which the Creator can work in harmony with his own laws, and yet wholly beyond the comprehension of finite beings! {CE 194.2}

Many teach that matter possesses vital power,-- that certain properties are imparted to matter, and it is then left to act through its own inherent energy; and that the operations of nature are conducted in harmony with fixed laws, with which God himself cannot interfere. This is false science, and is not sustained by the word of God. Nature is the servant of her Creator. God does not annul his laws, or work contrary to them; but he is continually using them as

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his instruments. Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Christ says, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." [John 5:17.] {CE 194.3}

The Levites, in their hymn recorded by Nehemiah, sung, "Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things therein, . . . and thou preservest them all." [Nehemiah 9:6.] As regards this world, God's work of creation is completed. For "the works were finished from the foundation of the world." [Hebrews 4:3.] But his energy is still exerted in upholding the objects of his creation. It is not because the mechanism that has once been set in motion continues to act by its own inherent energy, that the pulse beats, and breath follows breath; but every breath, every pulsation of the heart is an evidence of the all-pervading care of Him in whom "we live, and move, and have our being." [Acts 17:28.] It is not because of inherent power that year by year the earth produces her bounties, and continues her motion around the sun. The hand of God guides the planets, and keeps them in position in their orderly march through the heavens. He "bringeth out their host by number; he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth." [isaiah 40:26.] It is through his power that vegetation flourishes, that the leaves appear, and the flowers bloom. He "maketh grass to grow upon the mountains," and by him the valleys are made fruitful. All the beasts of the field seek their meat from God, [Psalm 147:8; 104:20, 21.] and every living creature, from the smallest insect up to man, is daily dependent upon his providential care. In the beautiful words of the psalmist, "These wait all upon thee. . . . That thou givest them they

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gather; thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good." [Psalm 104:27, 28.] His word controls the elements, he covers the heavens with clouds, and prepares rain for the earth. "He giveth snow like wool; he scattereth the hoarfrost like ashes." "When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures." [Psalm 147:16; Jeremiah 10:13.] {CE 195.1}

God is the foundation of everything. All true science is in harmony with his works; all true education leads to obedience to his government. Science opens new wonders to our view; she soars high, and explores new depths; but she brings nothing from her research that conflicts with divine revelation. Ignorance may seek to support false views of God by appeals to science; but the book of nature and the written word shed light upon each other. We are thus led to adore the Creator, and to have an intelligent trust in his word. {CE 196.1}

No finite mind can fully comprehend the existence, the power, the wisdom, or the works of the Infinite One. Says the sacred writer: "Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea." [Job 11:7-9.] The mightiest intellects of earth cannot comprehend God. Men may be ever searching, ever learning, and still there is an infinity beyond. {CE 196.2}

Yet the works of creation testify of God's power and greatness. "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork." [Psalm 19:1.] Those who take the written word as their counselor, will find in science an aid to understand God.

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{CE 196.3}

"The invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead." [Romans 1:20.]--"Patriarchs and Prophets," pp. 111-116.

[miz3]

miz3 says,

"Unless there is more evidence that clearly shows the wrong done by JH Kellogg..."

I actually had to laugh out loud at that. How much clearer could the prophet be on this subject?

Ellen White is not proof of Kelloggs sin and what that sin is!

You need to better than that!

[miz3]

Quote:

The heavens declare the glory of God;

the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

2 Day after day they pour forth speech;

night after night they display knowledge.

3 There is no speech or language

where their voice is not heard.[a]

4 Their voice goes out into all the earth,

their words to the ends of the world."

Psalm 19:1-4.

Whose voice is in the heavens?

Whose voice is in the skies?

Whose voice in verse two is speaking the speech?

Verse three and verse four whose voice is speaking?

Is it not God's Voice? Are they not God's Words?

If you say that it is not God (Deism)in these creations then what power is making them speak and what power is making them display?

[miz3]

He said that God is in the trees, in food, in water, in boots, etc. He said when we taste food, we are tasting God; and when we smell a flower, we are smelling God. He meant this in the literal sense. All this is false.

OK John317 where in the "Living Temple" (give pages) does Kellogg say these things?

Surely you can give me the pages where Kellogg made his offending remarks.

[ClubV12]

Ellen Whites testimony concerning Kelloggs position is quite clear miz3.

The only question that remains, as it concerns the Lords messenger on this topic, is whether you believe it or not. Obviously, miz3, you reject her inspired opinion on this matter. So noted...

By the way, Sky says,

"Club, I find that sometimes those who say they believe the Testimonies mean that they accept the testimonies that agree with their ideas."

I find the same thing Sky. I accept the Testimonies, all of them, I don't pick and choose that which feels comfortable or only that with which I agree. I don't use "that was her opinion" as an excuse to avoid seeing the truth.

[miz3]

Ellen Whites testimony concerning Kelloggs position is quite clear miz3.

Ellen White was not correct on everything she wrote.

I think sky has brought up some things that cast doubt as to whether all the "testimonies" actually came from Ellen White. Especially where it concerns JH Kellogg.

I don't know if sky wishes to elaborate more on this. It is his call.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

He said that God is in the trees, in food, in water, in boots, etc. He said when we taste food, we are tasting God; and when we smell a flower, we are smelling God. He meant this in the literal sense. All this is false.

OK John317 where in the "Living Temple" (give pages) does Kellogg say these things?

Surely you can give me the pages where Kellogg made his offending remarks.

If you feel that you don't trust Ellen White and you must read Living Temple for yourself to make sure she is not lying to you, go ahead. I won't do your research for you.

Of course the letters and testimonies on this subject are by Ellen White, but if you want to believe they aren't, that is what you are going to believe. There's not a shred of evidence that she didn't write them except for some people's conjecture.

Are you telling me you've been SDA for years and don't know about this?

You might get the books I've already referred to, Omega and Omega II by Lewis R. Walton.

[John317]

Some of the letters and testimonies from Ellen G. White to her friend, Dr. John H. Kellogg:

Let me tell you, Dr. Kellogg, it is not safe for us to employ as instructors in our institutions those who are not believers in the present truth. They advance ideas and theories that take hold of the mind with a bewitching power which absorbs the thoughts, making a world of an atom, and an atom of a world. . . .

-305- {11MR 304.3}

Dr. Kellogg, I entreat you to come close to Jesus. You need Him every moment. I can say no more now, for this letter must go into the mail. But if the Lord gives me strength, I will write further upon this subject. Your own letter has called this out. I have not had a line from Dr. Waggoner or A. T. Jones since I came to Australia. {11MR 305.1}

Please accept these hastily written lines from one who has the deepest interest in your prosperity.--Letter 18, 1892, pp. 2-10. (To J. H. Kellogg, April 5, 1892.) {11MR 305.2}

Counsel to Look to Christ for Wisdom--Warn every student against placing dependence on you, for you are not beyond temptation. Even now, though doing the very work the Lord designs to have done, you are embracing too much. The light of Christian example and Christian instruction may be turned in wrong channels, and the work God would have done may become too scattered, thus bringing confusion and discouragement upon the workers. {11MR 305.3}

The Lord alone must be your counselor. Remember that Satan has come down with great power to work with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they yield to his plans. You are not above temptation. You are not to feel confidence in your own wisdom. Your only dependence must be in God. Lean hard on Jesus Christ. You have worked hard to bring about good results. Do not now make any mistakes and spoil your work. You must never, never seek to lift one pin, remove one landmark of truth, that the Lord has given to His people as truth.--Letter 126, 1898, p. 4. (To J. H. Kellogg, Dec. 18, 1898.)

-306- {11MR 305.4}

J. H. Kellogg Warned He Is In Danger--Brother John Kellogg, my mother-heart goes out toward you with weeping, for by symbols I am warned that you are in danger. Satan is making masterly efforts to cause your feet to slide, but God's eye is upon you. Fight these last battles manfully. Stand equipped with the whole armor of righteousness. By faith I lay you in earnest prayer at the feet of Jesus. You are safe only in that position. Never for a moment suppose that you are in no danger.--Letter 132, 1898, pp. 4,5. (To J. H. Kellogg, Dec. 29, 1898.) {11MR 306.1}

Greatness Dependent on Humility--You need never try to shape your religious experience in order that you may be a great man before the world. Your greatness depends upon your humility. . . . {11MR 306.2}

Put on Christ. In the closet, communing with Him who seeth in secret, lay hold by faith on His might. Put away your self-confidence. Make peace with Him and you shall in your simplicity make peace with Him. . . . {11MR 306.3}

Walk humbly with God. Bear in humility all the honor God has seen fit to give you. Do not exalt yourself and demerit your brethren as you have done, for then you show distinctly that the Spirit of the Lord is departing from you, and that you will be left to your own wisdom.--Letter 40, 1899, pp. 4,5,11. (To J. H. Kellogg, copied Feb. 23, 1899.) {11MR 306.4}

J. H. Kellogg's Way and Spirit Not Approved by God--All I have to say now is that your way and spirit toward your brethren is not approved by God. He calls for unity. Variance and dissension are not created by the Lord. The Lord has given light to men that it may be a help to them and all connected with them. If the same spirit is manifested to justify and condemn

-307-

that has been cherished in the past, settle it in your mind that Jesus Christ is not glorified. The softening, subduing influence of the Spirit of God is greatly needed. Nothing can dishonor God more than the independent self-sufficiency that marks the defections of your brethren and fails to see your own dangers and defects. I am afraid for you. I am afraid for my brethren in responsible positions.--Letter 55, 1899, p. 1. (To J. H. Kellogg, March 24, 1899.) {11MR 306.5}

J. H. Kellogg Urged to Remain Loyal--If my words have wounded and bruised your soul, I am sorry, for I am wounded and bruised also. Our work, a strange work, a great work, given us by God, links us heart and soul together. You dare not throw off your armor. You must wear it till the end. When the Lord releases you, then it will be time for you to lay your armor at His feet. You have enlisted to the very close of the battle, and you would not disgrace yourself and dishonor God by deserting from the army. May the Lord open to you many matters which He has opened to me. Satan is watching his opportunity to dishonor the cause of God. I have been shown your peril and your guardian angel preserving you again and again from yourself, keeping you from making shipwreck of faith. Lift up the standard, lift it up, and be not fainthearted or discouraged. . . . {11MR 307.1}

The Lord loves you, the Lord upholds you. In God you can triumph. I have appreciated the confidence you have ever maintained in my humble self, as the Lord's servant, who speaks and works His will. You have ever shown me respect. In return you have my sincere appreciation of the same.--Letter 73, 1899, pp. 5,6,8. (To J. H. Kellogg, April 17, 1899.)

-308- {11MR 307.2}

Warnings of Dangers Have Not Been Overstated--I am writing much and the Lord gives me strength and grace. He has assured me that when at any time I have written to you in plainness, it has been to save you from making mistakes, and to place you under the leading of the Holy Spirit. Here I must leave the matter. Nothing has been overstated in regard to the dangers which threaten you.--Letter 129, 1899, p. 2. (To J. H. Kellogg, August 29, 1899.) {11MR 308.1}

EGW Concerned for JHK-I love you and I pray for you, and I believe the Lord hears my prayers for you as verily as if they came from your own mother's heart. Hide yourself in Christ.--Letter 129a, 1899. (To J. H. Kellogg, Aug. 29, 1899.) {11MR 308.2}

Why EGW Wrote Kellogg So Often-Why is it that I have written to you so often? Because there is none other whom you consider of sufficient authority to heed. . . . {11MR 308.3}

May the dear Jesus reveal Himself to you as He has done to me, is my prayer. He is the One "altogether lovely," and "the chiefest among ten thousand." Believe, only believe. Commit the keeping of your soul unto Him as unto a faithful Creator. Jesus will forgive you, and make your character like His own pure character, if you will open the door of your heart and let Him in. He wants to give you His peace, His joy, His comfort. If you will let Him do this, He will cause you to triumph gloriously.--Letter 135, 1899, pp. 1, 9. (To J. H. Kellogg, Aug. 29, 1899.)

-309- {11MR 308.4}

EGW Concerned for JHK--Your last letter expresses the thought that I have lost confidence in you. I do not know just how to reply to this statement. I am certainly deeply concerned for you, and it is most difficult to say anything because you do not take the matter as you should. I know that the Lord is your true friend, and He has presented your case before me as not directing the work correctly. . . . {11MR 309.1}

You need to be counseled and to receive this counsel as a blessing, not as a curse. You are wearing out your power. I need you to encourage and to help me in bearing the straightforward testimony that God has given me. The discouragement which you think I have brought upon you is not to be charged to me, for I have given you the Source of my message.--Letter 77, 1900, pp. 1,6. (To J. H. Kellogg, Dec., 1899.) {11MR 309.2}

JHK Reproved--You were entirely out of place in making such sweeping censures of your brethren. The Lord did not give to you the work of laying a reproach upon them. Your actions in this respect pleased the evil angels, but the angels of God veiled their faces. Such manifestations are not prompted by the spirit of God, but by another spirit. Your sarcasms, your witticisms, your play on words, which seemed so clever to some present, were an offense to God. You spoke sharp words to Christ in the person of His servants, who were appointed to do a special work for the Master. Sometimes they worked under great disadvantages. This was calculated to discourage them and to weaken their hands. Your inclination to chastise the ministers as you have done, and to break out upon them with a tirade of abuse, bears the rebuke of God. Unless you repent and make a thorough change, you will do more and more of this work. . . .

-310- {11MR 309.3}

Oh, John, John, what are you doing, and what do you mean? The work that is coming from your hands is not pure and sanctified. The work that should be done is not done. The Lord does not endorse the work that you are doing. . . . {11MR 310.1}

Dr. Kellogg, as you have dealt with others, so God will deal with you unless you repent and change your course of action. He cannot serve with injustice. There is not a vestige of justice in the position you so firmly maintained. Your wit and sarcasm were inspired by a spirit from beneath. Where you should have shown benevolence, kindness, love, and tenderness, as a representative man, you manifested traits exactly the opposite of these. I cannot find words to describe the way in which God regards such a course. --Letter 177, 1900, pp. 1,2,6,7. (To J. H. Kellogg, Jan. 21, 1900.) {11MR 310.2}

JHK Warned Concerning Operation of Medical Work--I have had matter written for some time, but have not sent you all you should have. I have been in such dread to have the words I should speak come in to contradict your course of action that I have kept still, but since I have been having representations of the vast field, God's vineyard, it has been distinctly presented before me that you have been bringing in principles that will not be sustained or favored by the Lord. The case of Nebuchadnezzar was presented before me. I must now say I have the matter before me in distinct lines. {11MR 310.3}

My brother, I am instructed to say to you that if you carry on the sanitarium and medical-missionary work as you are now doing, you will bring in a state of things that will be according to the wisdom of human minds, but not as God requires His work to be carried on.

Continued

[John317]

Continued

-311- {11MR 310.4}

Brother John, I tell you, your eternal interest depends upon a change in your heart in order that your head may work and plan so that all others may have a chance to accomplish the work, not after your devising, but after the wisdom given them individually of God.--Letter 188, 1901, pp. 1, 4. (To J. H. Kellogg, December 30, 1901.) {11MR 311.1}

Ellen White Will Not Cease to Warn J. H. Kellogg--So long as the Lord presents before me your case and your dangers, I shall not cease to warn you. If you will not take heed, if you refuse to change, I must then present the instruction given to me to those in responsible positions, that the people of God may not be leavened by the influence of your erroneous position. {11MR 311.2}

Dr. Kellogg, no one can appreciate more fully than myself the honor that God has bestowed on you in connecting you with His work as His chosen physician. I have a knowledge of you as a boy, and the Lord instructed me in regard to the dangers that threatened you, even in your childhood years, because of hereditary and cultivated tendencies. {11MR 311.3}

One evening my husband and I talked about your case for a long time, and then joined in prayer for you. In the night season light was given that we were to make a way for you and two of your companions. We decided to invest three thousand dollars in this--a thousand dollars for each of you. Light was given me that my husband and I were to act the part of a father and mother to you. . . . {11MR 311.4}

You need to be converted, to be born again, before you can cooperate with the Lord Jesus. . . .

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You may close your eyes and ears to the messages that God sends, but after all, you do believe them. And you may depend on this: A mother could not hold more firmly to a child that she dearly loves than I shall hold to you. I expect to see you engaged in the work that God has given you, and I pray for you constantly, in private prayer and at family worship. Sometimes I am awakened in the night, and rising, I walk the room, praying, "O Lord, hold Dr. Kellogg fast. Do not let him go. Keep him steadfast. Anoint his eyes with the heavenly eyesalve, that he may see all things clearly." --Letter 174, 1902, pp. 2, 6, 9. (To J. H. Kellogg, Nov. 11, 1902.) {11MR 312.1}

EGW's Concern for and Appeal to JHK--My brother, I have the deepest interest in you, knowing the value of the human soul, and I entreat you to turn to the Lord with full purpose of heart. In the night season I am pleading with you to heed the Scripture, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5). I am waiting and longing to hear from you in regard to your individual experience. . . . {11MR 312.2}

I beseech you to make an unreserved surrender to God, and to make it now, just now. When you make this surrender you will have an experience entirely different from the experience that you have had for many years. Then you will be able to say with the apostle Paul, "I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ" (Ephesians 3:8). "I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Romans 7:22). {11MR 312.3}

Every privilege is opened before you. Christ presents His loveliness of character for you to copy. When you make Him your example, your pride

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and self-assurance will be removed. You are becoming weak in spiritual power, through cherishing an unforgiving spirit and indulging wrathful feelings that place you under the control of Satan. These things are bearing sorry testimony against you. When you are converted, your masterly spirit, which leads you to judge and condemn and censure, will be changed.--Letter 65, 1903, pp. 1, 2, 5, 6. (To J. H. Kellogg, April 19, 1903.) {11MR 312.4}

EGW Prays That God Will Let JHK See Where He Stands--Last night, after going to rest, I wrestled in earnest prayer for you until eleven o'clock. Then I slept until three. I then rose and dressed, and continued my prayer that God would draw back the curtain and let you see where you stand. I have felt that it was of little use for me to write more to you, for the many letters that I have written do not seem to have that [effect] which I so much hoped they would accomplish. And yet my burden does not leave me, because you cannot see yourself as God sees you. {11MR 313.1}

The words, "Thou hast left thy first love," describe your condition. God calls upon you to repent, else He will come to you quickly, and will remove the candlestick out of its place. You need the ministry of the great Physician to cure you of the disease which, unless cured, will result in spiritual blindness. Let the Spirit of God come in and take possession of your heart, purifying the soul-temple. God wants you to let your heart break before Him. He wants you to confess and forsake your besetting sins. --Letter 180, 1903, pp. 2, 3. (To J. H. Kellogg, May 5, 1903). {11MR 313.2}

JHK Reproved for Confederating with Worldlings--Is it possible that you do not realize that Satan is playing the game of life for your soul? You

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are certainly in danger. You have not walked perfectly before the Lord. You have been ambitious, and have opened before worldlings that which you should not have opened to them. You have made with them a confederacy wholly displeasing to the Lord.--Letter 52, 1903, p. 1. (To J. H. Kellogg, April 5, 1903.) {11MR 313.3}

Unscriptural Theories in "The Living Temple"--If ever there was a time when the writings of every author needed to be criticized, it is now. God's Word is to be our study book. In this Word we do not find such representations of God as are presented in the Living Temple. Had Christ thought it essential for such theories to be given to human beings, He would have included them in His teachings. {11MR 314.1}

To me it seems passing strange that some who have been long in the work of God cannot discern the character of the teaching in Living Temple in regard to God. All through the book are passages of Scripture. These Scriptures are brought in in such a way that error is made to appear as truth. Erroneous theories are presented in so pleasing a way that unless care is taken, many will be misled. . . . {11MR 314.2}

I am called upon by God to stand in defense of the truth that has been given us as we have followed the leading of Him who is the way, the truth, and the life.--Letter 232, 1903, pp. 1, 14, 16. (To J. H. Kellogg, Oct. 16, 1903, marked "not sent.") {11MR 314.3}

"The Living Temple" Not Inspired by God--The book Living Temple is not to be patched up, a few changes made in it, and then advertised and praised as a valuable production. It would be better to present the physiological

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parts in another book under another title. When you wrote that book you were not under the inspiration of God. There was by your side the one who inspired Adam to look at God in a false light. Your whole heart needs to be changed, thoroughly and entirely cleansed. . . . {11MR 314.4}

My brother, I must tell you that you have little realization of whither your feet have been tending. The facts have been opened to me. You have been binding yourself up with those who belong to the army of the great apostate. Your mind has been as dark as Egypt. If you will fall on the Rock and be broken, Christ will accept you. . . . {11MR 315.1}

I write to you as I would to a son. Break away from the enemy--the accuser of the brethren. Say to him, "Get thee behind me, Satan. I have committed a grievous sin in heeding your suggestions. I will no longer listen to them." I beg of you, for your soul's sake, to resist the tempter, that he may flee from you. Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. You will lose heaven unless you fall on the Rock and are broken.--Letter 253, 1903, pp. 1, 12-14. (To J. H. Kellogg, Nov. 20, 1903.) {11MR 315.2}

Fables Similar to Heresies in the Early Days of the Message Present in "The Living Temple"--The difficulties that have arisen have been very hard to meet, and they are far from being settled yet. One, and another, and still another are presented to me as having been led to accept the pleasing fables that mean the sanctification of sin. The Living Temple contains the alpha of a train of heresies. These heresies are similar to those that I met in my first labors in connection with the cause in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, then in Boston, Roxbury, Portsmouth, New Bedford, and other parts of Massachusetts. Through them the evil one worked upon the minds of men and women. . . .

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I bore them a message similar to the message I have been bearing for the last two months. I was instructed that the ideas they had accepted were but the alpha of a great deception. I had to meet similar delusions in Portsmouth and in Boston.--Letter 265, 1903, pp. 1,2. (To J. H. Kellogg, Nov. 26, 1903.) {11MR 316.1}

There Is Yet Hope--I am now bidden to say to you, "You may now come to the Saviour. Your opportunity is here. At the General Conference [session] held in Battle Creek in 1901, the Lord, in the testimonies borne in the Tabernacle, pointed out the way that you were to follow, but you did not choose to follow. At one time, after the [General] Conference [session] held at South Lancaster [1899], you broke down and you did see yourself, but in none too strong a light. Had you then kept the repentance that needeth not to be repented of, you would have boldly taken your stand under the banner of Jesus Christ. But it is not natural for you to yield, and you cherished a stubborn determination to carry out your own will and way. You would not yield to the Holy Spirit's guidance. You kept yourself under your own control, devising first one plan and then another plan, and working against the Lord's plans. . . . {11MR 316.2}

If you could leave your work in the charge of some other physician and go away from Battle Creek for some months, with someone who understands your danger, you might break the spell. But this seems to be an impossibility. You do not realize the danger of your condition. . . . {11MR 316.3}

I am moved by the Spirit of God to tell you to break with Satan's agencies. Come to Jesus. Make things right, even though this takes an effort that would seem to dissolve human nature. Take yourself in hand and go

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straight to Jesus, your invisible Mediator. Go in spite of the opposition of the flesh. Resist every inclination to draw back. Make the break. Die to self. Then you will be able to say, "I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto Thy testimonies" (Psalm 119:59).--Letter 269, 1904, pp. 1,3,5. (To J. H. Kellogg, May 22, 1904.) {11MR 316.4}

Deceptive Power Working on J. H. Kellogg's Mind for Years --Christ says to you, "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me" (Isaiah 27:5). I plead with you to respond to this invitation. You do not understand yourself, because for years a deceptive power has been working upon your mind. . . . {11MR 317.1}

I am at times in an agony of distress for your soul. . . . {11MR 317.2}

The Lord does not acknowledge as pleasing to Him the course that you have pursued at our general meetings. You may think that you have clothed yourself with the garments of righteousness, but should you come thus clothed to the marriage supper of the Lamb, it would be seen that you have on the dress of a civilian. {11MR 317.3}

The Lord Jesus was much displeased with your course of action at the General Conference [session] held in Oakland [1903]. At one time it was presented to me that evil angels clothed with beautiful garments were escorting you from place to place, and inspiring you to speak words of boasting which were offensive to God. Heavenly messengers were viewing all that took place. They heard the words and witnessed the acts that were of a nature to bring glory to men rather than to God. {11MR 317.4}

At this time you were not led by the Spirit of God. Your threats that you would bring the law to bear upon those who oppressed your track showed

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that you were in the same condition as those to whom the Laodicean message is addressed. {11MR 317.5}

Should I be removed by death, I leave in writing this testimony that you are not yourself. You are not particular to teach the truth, and unless you are converted you will lead the people of God in strange paths. . . . {11MR 318.1}

I, too, must speak the truth, even though it cut men to the quick. The Lord has a controversy with those who make of no effect the testimonies of His Spirit. He is dishonored by those who reject the light given concerning The Living Temple, telling you that you have been misjudged. The warnings given regarding this book should be received, believed, and acted upon.--Letter 257, 1904, pp. 1-4. (To J. H. Kellogg, July 27, 1904.) {11MR 318.2}

Not One Word to Destroy Hope--This morning I received a letter from you. I would encourage you in the efforts that you are making to press into the light. We pray for you, that you will work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure. I would not say one word to destroy hope. I know that the enemy will work diligently to dishearten right effort.--Letter 361, 1904, p. 1. (To J. H. Kellogg, August 25, 1904.) {11MR 318.3}

Do Not Discuss God's Personality--Never allow yourself to be drawn into discussion regarding the personality of God. On this subject, silence is eloquence. . . . {11MR 318.4}

Here are words given me to repeat to you: "Many prayers have been offered up for you by those who would rejoice to see you converted in mind, in thought, in writing."--Letter 283, 1904, pp. 4-6. (To J. H. Kellogg, Sept. 10, 1904.)

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Hope for Unity, If----If your faith in the Word of God is strengthened; if you will fully accept the truths that have called us out of the world and made us a people denominated by the Lord as His peculiar treasure; if you will unite with your brethren in standing by the old landmarks, then there will be unity. But you remain in unbelief, unsettled as to the true foundation of faith; there can be no hope of any more unity in the future than there has been in the past. {11MR 319.1}

I am instructed to say that you need to be re-taught the first principles of present truth. You have not believed the messages that God has given for this time because they do not favor your sentiments. Think you that while you remain in doubt and unbelief you can be fully united with those who have stood for the truth as it is in Jesus and who have accepted the light that God has given to us as a people? {11MR 319.2}

Ask yourself candidly whether you are sound in the faith. Do all in your power to come into unity with God and with your brethren. As a people we cannot receive the full measure of the blessing of God while some who occupy leading positions are continuously working against the truth that for years we have held sacred, and obedient to the faith that has brought us what success we have had.--Letter 23, 1904, pp. 1,2. (To J. H. Kellogg, Dec. 1904, copied Jan. 16, 1905.) {11MR 319.3}

Deceptive Influence Cultivated by JHK--I have a great burden of soul for you, Dr. Kellogg. If I could see you in the road that leads onward and upward, I should be more than thankful. Were you a child, I would say that you had been spoiled through flattery, vain conceit, and self-exaltation. That which makes your case so sorrowful, so hopeless, is that you are not a

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man of truth. You frame for the occasion any sentiments that may come into your mind. You twist words; you misinterpret; and you make assurances that are false. You have cultivated this deceptive influence until you have become an unreliable man. With what grief and sadness the Lord has looked upon you! . . . {11MR 319.4}

I have a word for you from the Lord. Take your stand for the right and cease to suppose that you are safe where you are now standing. You need to undergo a transformation that will give you an experience that is the opposite of the experience you now have. . . . {11MR 320.1}

The Lord will not much longer allow Dr. Kellogg to pursue the course of deception that he has pursued for years. He will take his case in hand. He has borne long with him, but the medical-missionary work, so long controlled by him, shall not always bear the marks of his defection. God would have made Dr. Kellogg a man after His own mind, but he refused to place himself under God's control. His crooked ways and deceptive works are a great dishonor to the truth. {11MR 320.2}

I have seen that Satan's power over him has not been broken. Those who choose to sustain the man who so greatly dishonors God and has stood directly in the way of His work, will themselves become so deceived that their work will not be accepted by God. I have felt reluctant to say these things, but I know the Lord would not have souls endangered any longer by Dr. Kellogg. Tares have been sown in the minds of God's people, and as a result of this some have given up the truth, some have become infidels. The misrepresentations that Dr. Kellogg has made of the work God has given me to do, have made them infidels.--Letter 116, 1905, pp. 1,3,10. (To J. H. Kellogg, April 22, 1905.)

White Estate Washington, D. C. December 10, 1981 {11MR 320.3}

[miz3]

Quote:

J. H. Kellogg Warned He Is In Danger--Brother John Kellogg, my mother-heart goes out toward you with weeping, for by symbols I am warned that you are in danger. Satan is making masterly efforts to cause your feet to slide, but God's eye is upon you. Fight these last battles manfully. Stand equipped with the whole armor of righteousness. By faith I lay you in earnest prayer at the feet of Jesus. You are safe only in that position. Never for a moment suppose that you are in no danger.--Letter 132, 1898, pp. 4,5. (To J. H. Kellogg, Dec. 29, 1898.) {11MR 306.1}

Quote:

Greatness Dependent on Humility--You need never try to shape your religious experience in order that you may be a great man before the world. Your greatness depends upon your humility. . . . {11MR 306.2}

Put on Christ. In the closet, communing with Him who seeth in secret, lay hold by faith on His might. Put away your self-confidence. Make peace with Him and you shall in your simplicity make peace with Him. . . . {11MR 306.3}

Walk humbly with God. Bear in humility all the honor God has seen fit to give you. Do not exalt yourself and demerit your brethren as you have done, for then you show distinctly that the Spirit of the Lord is departing from you, and that you will be left to your own wisdom.--Letter 40, 1899, pp. 4,5,11. (To J. H. Kellogg, copied Feb. 23, 1899.) {11MR 306.4}

J. H. Kellogg's Way and Spirit Not Approved by God--All I have to say now is that your way and spirit toward your brethren is not approved by God. He calls for unity. Variance and dissension are not created by the Lord. The Lord has given light to men that it may be a help to them and all connected with them. If the same spirit is manifested to justify and condemn.

Sounds to me that it is not about pantheism at all. It appears to me that Ellen White is telling JH Kellogg that in order to have peace and harmony that Kellogg should give in to the "brethren".

So it was a power play after all!

The "brethren" were "using" Ellen White to pressure JH Kellogg!

That is very interesting!

[ClubV12]

Sky correct me if I have reached the wrong position on your thoughts of the brethren and Kellogg.

I THINK your earlier point about the brethren was the danger that some of them will use their "power base" to discredit sincere workers of God and effectively have them removed from a position of influence. Further, that such tactics may well be a major factor in the "Omega" apostasy? In part, I agree.

There will always been men who rejoice and take an active part in destroying another. In the case of Kellogg, they could easily justify their actions because of Ellen Whites position.

We must find the right balance in drawing closer together and supporting the brethren. This kind of support is a constant call from Ellen White and is paramount to the cause. She herself submitted to go to Australia, even though she did not have clear light on the subject. In spite of what "man" may do, even our highest leaders, God is still in control and has "drawn a line" they cannot pass should their hearts be bent on evil. This call for unity, above all else, is why I have such strong feelings as it regards support of the organized church and leadership. ONLY in matters of conscience would I reject the counsel of the brethren. If they chose to remove me from an office or even disfellowship me, I will still support them as Gods chosen leaders. I would still pay my tithe and offerings, to God, what man does with that money is out of my hands at that point.

In the coming Omega apostasy perhaps men of God, good men, WILL be removed, the influence shattered. In such a case, though sad, I will still support the church!

In the case of Kellogg, regardless of what the brethren thought or what action they took, this case is clear. It was God working through them, and Ellen White, to stop Kellogg and his dangerous teaching. He "crossed that line" and God removed him, not the brethren.

miz3 and other "false sympathizers" will have their hearts hardened, like Pharoah, as a result of these actions. But actually, nothing will have changed. If it were not a Kellogg issue, it would be something else, the end result would be the same. We are either drawing closer together and supporting one another (warts, injustice and all) or we are being drawn farther apart. Decisions will ultimately be made, the individuals choice will become clear in time. With Gods people, or, on the outside looking in, no half way.

Now we have some who support "most" of the church, most of it's leadership and most of Ellen White, but at some point, we will accept or reject all of the above.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

J. H. Kellogg Warned He Is In Danger--Brother John Kellogg, my mother-heart goes out toward you with weeping, for by symbols I am warned that you are in danger. Satan is making masterly efforts to cause your feet to slide, but God's eye is upon you. Fight these last battles manfully. Stand equipped with the whole armor of righteousness. By faith I lay you in earnest prayer at the feet of Jesus. You are safe only in that position. Never for a moment suppose that you are in no danger.--Letter 132, 1898, pp. 4,5. (To J. H. Kellogg, Dec. 29, 1898.) {11MR 306.1}

Quote:

Greatness Dependent on Humility--You need never try to shape your religious experience in order that you may be a great man before the world. Your greatness depends upon your humility. . . . {11MR 306.2}

Put on Christ. In the closet, communing with Him who seeth in secret, lay hold by faith on His might. Put away your self-confidence. Make peace with Him and you shall in your simplicity make peace with Him. . . . {11MR 306.3}

Walk humbly with God. Bear in humility all the honor God has seen fit to give you. Do not exalt yourself and demerit your brethren as you have done, for then you show distinctly that the Spirit of the Lord is departing from you, and that you will be left to your own wisdom.--Letter 40, 1899, pp. 4,5,11. (To J. H. Kellogg, copied Feb. 23, 1899.) {11MR 306.4}

J. H. Kellogg's Way and Spirit Not Approved by God--All I have to say now is that your way and spirit toward your brethren is not approved by God. He calls for unity. Variance and dissension are not created by the Lord. The Lord has given light to men that it may be a help to them and all connected with them. If the same spirit is manifested to justify and condemn.

_________

Sounds to me that it is not about pantheism at all. It appears to me that Ellen White is telling JH Kellogg that in order to have peace and harmony that Kellogg should give in to the "brethren".

So it was a power play after all!

The "brethren" were "using" Ellen White to pressure JH Kellogg!

That is very interesting!

miz3

_________________-

I agree. More like W.C. White and the apostate leaders of the G.C. were behind these so-called testimonies or were able to convince Mrs. White, through many lies about Kellogg, that he was a pantheist and a rebel. They had to get rid of that man just as they had to get rid of A.T. Jones, and they did.

I have read The Living Temple searching for pantheism in that book and I did not find anything that even resembles pantheistic theories.

Kellogg believed in a Creator and He believed in Jesus Christ as His personal Saviour and how by the Spirit they are working in and through all, moving in all things according to their will. No pantheist can adhere to such doctrines.

"All I have to say now is that your way and spirit toward your brethren is not approved by God. He calls for unity. Variance and dissension are not created by the Lord."

To me, these words could not have come from the Lord. How do I know that? Simply because Kellogg was the one who did everything he could possibly do to unite with the brethren. It was the "brethren" of the G.C. who refused to sit down with him. The Lord sent testimonies urging the "brethren" to go to Dr. Kellogg but they ignored these testimonies.

sky