skyblue888 Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 Don't laugh too hard club. This was already covered in other threads. Here we go again. miz3 is right about this. There was a power struggle going on. "The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear." T..361. "Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God." T.M.366. It is my belief, after studying the bulk of the Testimonies regarding those crucial years, that the accusations about Kellogg being a pantheist were a smoke screen to hide the real issues at stake. When they saw that they were not able to bring this man under their control, like A.T. Jones, they resorted to fraud and guile even if it meant falsifying testimonies or fabricating testimonies. W.C. White had become amenable to these men and he did their biddings and I believe he misled Mrs. White and the Lord allowed this to take place just as He allowed many things to take place with the unbelieving Jews. We are repeating their history to the very letter. Remember that these men of the G.C. had chosen darkness rather than light. They did not know what spirit they were of and they were always turning things upside down just to get their way or to keep their place. They had put God aside and accepted the devisings of men. See T.M.481. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted July 11, 2011 Moderators Posted July 11, 2011 Not wanting to go of in another direction Club, but what is this Omega heresy? Have not heard anything about this! If you want you can start another thread dealing with this. I think I might have an idea the more I think about it. There are two excellent books on this subject: OMEGA, by Lewis R. Walton OMEGA II: God's Church At the Brink, By Lewis R. Walton They are very well documented and are must reads for any SDA who wants to understand the Omega that Ellen White warns us about. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 On the other hand, Sky... The testimony in THIS case, as it concerns Kellogg, Ellen Whites counsel is straight up and clear. Which is I why I found myself with a "chuckle". OK, probably not the best reaction, but it was my immediate reaction to a comment. The issue appears, to me, to be without controversy. Straight up, the Lords messenger said his teaching was truth mixed with error and dangerous. I see only two choices in the matter, accept it or reject it. It's not like she was middle of the road or maybe kind of sort of leaning toward one position or the other, not really sure. She was mistaken, or not. As it concerns the "brethren", I would not be surprised that had other motives and relished the idea of putting the man down for what ever reason. They may well have treated him unfairly, thats between them and God. It doesn't change Ellen Whites testimony or the teachings of Kellogg. In following that counsel I believe John is right on target, don't even post anything from the book, it's not worth reading or studying or quoting. Because it's "dangerous" in it's teaching. A lot of truth mixed with error has ALWAYS, through out history, been the best way to "lie" ever invented. Politicians make it a life work.
skyblue888 Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 The omega of apostasy began in 1888 when the righteousness by faith message was resisted. The reception of that message would have led to re-organize, to begin at the foundation--faith in the merits of Christ--and to build upon a different principle--the principle of self-government in Christ by the Holy Spirit-- and the Lord could have finished the work and cut it short in righteousness. But "The self-confident managment of men resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481. These words mean something. This order of things has been allowed to continue for more than a century. What has happened to primitive faith and godliness? Gone. So we should not be surprised at the apostasies that have taken place ever since. The pillars of our faith were compromised and even repudiated in the 1950s just so this denomination would be reckoned as a Christian denomination by the leaders of these churches which constitute Babylon. The foundation and central pillar of our movement was compromised. Our leaders told them that we too believed and taught that the atonement was finished and completed at the cross. When they asked them about our sanctuary doctrine they were told that Jesus, in the sanctuary above, was merely applying the benefits of that finished atonement to those who believed in Him. If needs be, I will re-post what Mrs. White has said about the leaders of the G.C., how the Lord had urged them to extend the hand of fellowship to Dr. Kellogg and they refused. These statements, those who blindly support the present order of things, would never quote. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted July 11, 2011 Moderators Posted July 11, 2011 ... Because it's "dangerous" in it's teaching. A lot of truth mixed with error has ALWAYS, through out history, been the best way to "lie" ever invented. It wouldn't be dangerous if it wasn't subtle and crafty and if it were clear-cut. Ellen White says that it is so subtle that it appears to many, especially those who come under its spell, that it is the same as Ellen White's own writings, but she herself denied this categorically. Who are we going to believe? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 No need to re-post anything on 1888 for me, I've become rather expert on the subject as it has been a close study of mine for sometime. I'm now contemplating how the "Alpha" heresy from Kellogg ties in with the "Omega" heresy some say exists today. All that AND it's relationship to 1888. I'm fairly certain, Sky, our views will not entirely be in harmony on the subject of 1888, by the way. As you know, I am and remain a die hard supporter of the organized and legal official church. I don't believe it will fall, in 1888 or in the future, all though it may appear to. What IS the "church" in this case? That could be debated, but in my view, it is precisely the organized, legally sanctioned, official SDA church the world recognizes today.
ClubV12 Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 John says, "It wouldn't be dangerous if it wasn't subtle and crafty and if it were clear-cut." That reminds me of Desmond Ford!
skyblue888 Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 Both alpha and omega of apostasies undermine the pillars of our faith. No need to dig very deep to find out when this happened. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 No need to re-post anything on 1888 for me, I've become rather expert on the subject as it has been a close study of mine for sometime. I'm now contemplating how the "Alpha" heresy from Kellogg ties in with the "Omega" heresy some say exists today. All that AND it's relationship to 1888. I'm fairly certain, Sky, our views will not entirely be in harmony on the subject of 1888, by the way. As you know, I am and remain a die hard supporter of the organized and legal official church. I don't believe it will fall, in 1888 or in the future, all though it may appear to. What IS the "church" in this case? That could be debated, but in my view, it is precisely the organized, legally sanctioned, official SDA church the world recognizes today. Club, you said, "I am and remain a die hard supporter of the organized and legal officical church." "The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear." T..361. Do we really want to die for this high-handed power which is the present order of things? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted July 12, 2011 Moderators Posted July 12, 2011 Ellen White wrote the following to Dr. Kellogg: Deceptive Influence Cultivated by JHK--I have a great burden of soul for you, Dr. Kellogg. If I could see you in the road that leads onward and upward, I should be more than thankful. Were you a child, I would say that you had been spoiled through flattery, vain conceit, and self-exaltation. That which makes your case so sorrowful, so hopeless, is that you are not a man of truth. You frame for the occasion any sentiments that may come into your mind. You twist words; you misinterpret; and you make assurances that are false. You have cultivated this deceptive influence until you have become an unreliable man. With what grief and sadness the Lord has looked upon you! . . . {11MR 319.4} I have a word for you from the Lord. Take your stand for the right and cease to suppose that you are safe where you are now standing. You need to undergo a transformation that will give you an experience that is the opposite of the experience you now have. . . . {11MR 320.1} The Lord will not much longer allow Dr. Kellogg to pursue the course of deception that he has pursued for years. He will take his case in hand. He has borne long with him, but the medical-missionary work, so long controlled by him, shall not always bear the marks of his defection. God would have made Dr. Kellogg a man after His own mind, but he refused to place himself under God's control. His crooked ways and deceptive works are a great dishonor to the truth. {11MR 320.2} She also wrote: "Before the development of recent events, the course was that would be pursued by Dr. Kellogg and his associates was plainly outlined before me. He with others planned how thy might gain the sympathies of the people. They would seek to give the impression that they believed all points of our faith, and had confidence in the Testimonies. Thus many would be deceived, and would take their stand with those who had departed from the faith." (Ellen G. White letter 328, 1906) "When engaged in discussion over these theories, their advocates will take words spoken to oppose them, and will make them appear to mean the very opposite of that which the speaker intended them to mean." (Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 6, page 42) John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 No need to re-post anything on 1888 for me, I've become rather expert on the subject as it has been a close study of mine for sometime. Club ___________ So you have become an expert on 1888. "If any men thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know it." 1 Cor.8:2. When we think we know something, put that down. We don't know anything yet as we ought to know it. This passage of Scripture will always be true. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: pkrause Not wanting to go of in another direction Club, but what is this Omega heresy? Have not heard anything about this! If you want you can start another thread dealing with this. I think I might have an idea the more I think about it. There are two excellent books on this subject: OMEGA, by Lewis R. Walton OMEGA II: God's Church At the Brink, By Lewis R. Walton They are very well documented and are must reads for any SDA who wants to understand the Omega that Ellen White warns us about. I dont think so John. I have read his books and they are not accurate about Dr. Kellogg and he himself did not understand the difference between pantheistic teachings and what the Bible teaches as to what it means to know God, to know the relation between nature and nature's God. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted July 12, 2011 Moderators Posted July 12, 2011 I understand that Mr. Walton takes a different viewpoint than you do on this topic. He believes what Ellen White wrote about it and therefore believes, as I do, that Dr. Kellogg's book, The Living Temple, teaches dangerous error. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 "If any men thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know it." 1 Cor.8:2." Yes, yes Sky, never the less, I stand on my statement of being somewhat of an expert on the subject of 1888. I don't consider that boasting, I consider it a fact. Especially if you apply it to the typical SDA's I've conversed with on the subject! :)
Moderators John317 Posted July 12, 2011 Moderators Posted July 12, 2011 Both alpha and omega of apostasies undermine the pillars of our faith. No need to dig very deep to find out when this happened. sky What did Ellen White say was the "Alpha"? In the book Living Temple there is presented the alpha of deadly heresies. The omega will follow, and will be received by those who are not willing to heed the warning God has given. {1SM 200.1} John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Meaning Ellen White is wrong Gordon? If I had to make a choice, it's a no brainer. "I'll take Ellen White for a thousand,,, Alex." And the answer is, "Inspired".
Moderators John317 Posted July 12, 2011 Moderators Posted July 12, 2011 You guys are going to take a man's word over that of Ellen White?!! Better go back and reread the EGW warnings on post#459998. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 For the sake of the truth. Let us forget about Dr. Kellogg for a moment. What about these statements: "The only key to the mysteries that surround us is to acknowledge in them all the presence and power of God." D.A.606. "The divine Spirit which the Lord promised to send is the presence and power of God." E.G. White, Signs of the Times, Nov.23,1891. These two statements clearly teach that God is present and working in all creation through the divine Spirit, "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." Education, 14. Do we believe this? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Administrators Gail Posted July 12, 2011 Administrators Posted July 12, 2011 What did Ellen White say was the "Alpha"? In the book Living Temple there is presented the alpha of deadly heresies. The omega will follow, and will be received by those who are not willing to heed the warning God has given. {1SM 200.1} I was thinking of asking this way back... Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
skyblue888 Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Taking a man's word over that of Ellen White! John, you know that I believe in the testimonies, above any man's word. I believe the Testimonies that tell me that the leading men, unless kept by the Spirit of God, will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men and that fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and the advancement of the kingdom of God. I guess these words don't mean anything to you, or do they? What do you think is implied by "fraud and guile bearing the semblance of zeal for truth"? does not that imply forging testimonies if needs be in order to bring men under the control of men? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted July 12, 2011 Moderators Posted July 12, 2011 The problem is not with Ellen White or her statements; it's with Dr. Kellogg's, and particularly with what he wrote in the Living Temple. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 The "alpha of apostasy" was to undermine the pillars of our faith. Of course anyone who teaches that the universe is God or that God is the universe cannot believe in a personal God or that there is a sanctuary in Heaven where Christ is pleading the merits of His sacrifice in behalf of sinners. To teach that nature is God sweeps away the whole Christian economy. That's what pantheism does. But the question is, What did Dr. Kellogg teach? Did he teach that the universe is God or that God by His Spirit is everywhere present? There is a vast difference. Are we willing to acknowledge the possibility that part of the omega of apostasy would involve the apostate leaders to be more than ready to forge "testimonies" to bring certain men under their control? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Sky says, Quote: "The only key to the mysteries that surround us is to acknowledge in them all the presence and power of God." D.A.606. "The divine Spirit which the Lord promised to send is the presence and power of God." E.G. White, Signs of the Times, Nov.23,1891. These two statements clearly teach that God is present and working in all creation through the divine Spirit, "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." Education, 14. Do we believe this? I believe it! I don't see a conflict between those statements and her counsel on Kelloggs book. You could call that "faith", but I've read and studied Ellen White enough to where, for me, it's moves beyond faith. She is a prophetess, period, I've accepted that as "fact", irrevocable, not open to discussion, a piller of my personal faith. Do I think she was inspired? Certainly! Did she, at times offer her own opinion? I have yet to see a concrete example of something she said that spells that out. She offered her own opinion in the same way Paul offered his on marriage. When it comes to any given quote, often held up as it MUST be her "own opinion", it is NOT concrete. It is subject to interpretation. Did her views change over the years? Yup! But her views are always consistent. The weight of evidence is clearly in favor of Ellen White and ALL her writings that I've read or seen to date. Take her writings in context for time and place? Certainly, and when you understand the whole of the matter of which she is writing you will find principles that apply to OUR TIME in OUR CONTEXT. The same way you do when you read the bible! It's not about the Corinthian church, it's about the PRINCIPLES Paul lays down concerning that church that still apply today. Sky, I KNOW you fully accept Ellen White as inspired, I'm just making my position clear to anyone reading this thread.
skyblue888 Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Club, I find that sometimes those who say they believe the Testimonies mean that they accept the testimonies that agree with their ideas. Do you believe the statements I have quoted which clearly state that the divine Spirit is the presence and power of God, that in in all the mysteries that surround us we are to acknowledge this presence and power? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
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