skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Next one: "The Lord is in the wind. You see the Lord is in all these things in nature." (GC Bulletin, March 8, 1897, page 290) I know exactly what people think when they read something like this. Did he really say that the Lord was in the wind!!! And right away we think of pantheism but pantheism is not that. Here what Pantheism is: God is the wind! But to say that God by His Spirit is in the wind is not pantheism but the truth, and, of course, His throne is in Heaven. By His Spirit, and the Spirit is God, God is in the wind, moving in the wind. Inspiration tells us that there is in nature the continual working of God. We have just read from the words of inspiration that "those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything. (8 T 325) "Those who have a true knowledge of God will not become so infatuated with the laws of matter or the operations of nature as to overlook or refuse to acknowledge the continual working of God in nature." 1 S.M.293. It is by the Spirit, and the Spirit is God in the highest sense, that God is perpetually at work in nature. If this is not what Kellogg is saying and he is saying something else, then what is it? Notice these words: "The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things." Education, 101. The Presence that pervades all created things!!! Pantheism is the teaching that all created things are God. But the truth is that God, who created all things, is present in all things by His Spirit. By the Spirit God is "moving in all things according to His will." M.H.416. The Spirit, who is God in the highest sense, is "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Next one: "Take the sunflower, for example. It looks straight at the sun.... It is God in the sunflower that makes it do this... There is an Intelligence that is present in the plant, in all vegetation... Notice that he did not say that the sunflower is God but that God is working in the sunflower, that there is an intelligent presence in the plant, in all vegetation, "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." Education,14. And that is the truth. "Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Ministry of Healing, p.416. And it is by the Spirit, "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all," that God makes the sunflower looks straight at the sun. So then, "The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things." Education,101. It is an intelligent presence and it can only be the presence of God through the Spirit. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Next one: Kellogg said: "Wherever God's life is, God himself is. You can not separate God and his life. That is the reason why God is everywhere." (GC Bulletin, 1901, pages 492-495) Kellogg also speaks on page 495 of the "divine presence" in the cell. John317 ________________________ Why not? "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." M.H.397. "All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are recipients of the life of the Son of God." 1 S.M.301. He did not say that the things of nature were God but that God was, by His Spirit, present in all the things of nature. God is, by the Spirit, present in every cell, directing each cell so that they may do the work they have been assigned. This does not happen by itself. It is not a mere impersonal essence or power that is at work in the human organism or any organism for that matter. We have just read that "the entire being is under the supervision of God." 1 S.M.294. If the entire being is under the supervsion of God, then every cell in our bodies is under the supervision of God. This is accomplished through the Spirit of God, His immediate Agency. Notice these amazing words: "It is not because the mechanism once set in motion continues to act by its own inherent energy, that the pulse beats, and breath follows breath. Every breath, every pulsation of the heart, is an evidence of the care of Him in whom we live and move and have our being. From the smallest insect to man, every living creature is daily dependent upon His providence." Education,131. Thus we read, "Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything." Testimonies, Vol.8, 325. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 How about that ClubV12. Ellen White and JH Kellogg side by side and not a scintilla's worth of difference between them. Does this make Ellen White a "pantheist" as JH Kellogg is being accused of? Your turn to spit my friend!
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Next one: Kellogg said, "God is actually within us, a real, living, ever present power.." (LT, page 53) John317 _________________________ Why not? He is not saying that we are God but that God, by His Spirit, is actually working in and through all, believers and unbelievers. "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. Speaking of man's organism, we have just read that "The entire being is under the supervision of God." 1 S.M.294. "One God and Father who is above all, and through all, and in all." Eph.4:6. Not only in man but in all created things. "Do I not fill heaven and earth?' says the Lord." Jer.23:24. In the beginning God filled all things, absolutely filled all things. After the fall God still filled all things but not absolutely as in the beginning. So it is written, "He that descended is the same who ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things." Eph.4:10. So Christ descended and ascended up far above all heavens that He might fill all things as in the beginning. So we may be filled with all the fullness of God. (Eph.3:19). He does not yet fill all things in nature as in the beginning but He will when He makes all things new. But in the meantime those who believe may be filled with all the fullness of God. "The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues to work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every never and muscle in the living organism is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God." Ministry of Healing, 417. The Holy Spirit is the power of an ever-present God because it is by His Spirit that He is everywhere present, "moving in all things according to His will." "The only key to the mysteries that surround us is to acknowledge in them all the presence and power of God." Desire of Ages, 606. "The divine Spirit... is the presence and power of God." Signs of the Times, Nov.23, 1891. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Ellen White pointed out that MUCH of what Kellogg had to say was in fact truth. Closely emulating or agreeing with her position, mixed with dangerous error. Herein lies the problem with Kelloggs views, having a form or Godliness but denying the power thereof. Thus, the deception is a powerful one. There is no doubt page after page and quote after quote could be posted from Kelloggs book that IS "truth". But the end result presents a concept of the character of God that is entirely misleading. It is notable the both Sky and Miz3 have bought into this lie hook, line and sinker as a result of rejecting Ellen Whites counsel on the matter. When folks take it upon themselves to discredit the Lords clear counsel they allow themselves to come under delusion. Sky, I am blown away you cannot accept Ellen Whites counsel on this, believing she was deceived by the brethren into writing her own opinion. In Testimonies Vol 1 she actually address' this very issue, how some in her day claimed her writings were heavily influenced by those around her. As a result that they were her own incorrect opinion. She was as shocked by this accusation as I am by your position. As it concerns miz3, I am not at all surprised, his position has always been clear in that he rejects a large portion of her writings as false. Where do you draw the line with this idea? How then is one able to determine what is and what isn't inspired with her writings? You cannot, it is the worst possible attack on the prophet, spreading confusion and causing believers to reject Ellen White entirely. THIS is the fruit of Kelloggs book, the damage he caused a 100 years ago continues today!!! Thats amazing...
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Next one: Kellogg said: "God is not behind nature nor above nature; he is in nature..." (LT, page 40) I think it is understandable as to why the doctor would say something like this. Most people have no problem believing that God created all things. To them God is behind nature and above nature but He is not in nature. Even Seventh-day Adventists are the last ones to understand that God is not only behind and above all things but that He, by His Spirit, is also moving in all things according to His will. We should be the first ones to acknowledge this since it has been revealed to us. Yet we are the tail when it comes to recognizing this and that would be because of the apostasies and the controversies that took place, the power struggle that took place between prominent men. According to the interview between him and two members of the G.C., kellogg was willing to do anything to solve whatever the problem was but the apostate leaders of the G.C. were determined: Kellogg must go just as A.T. Jones had to go if they were to keep their place. Just as the men who composed the Sanhedrin were determined: Jesus had to go. It is an important part of our mission to teach this to all nations. Mrs. White said that it was the true knowledge of God. See Education, p.14. This light is to illuminate the whole world. In the book Education Mrs. White has a chapter titled "GOD IN NATURE" but how many adventists understand what she is saying in the first pages of that chapter as well as in the first chapter of that book? Not even one in one thousand does! She says, "Not by its own inherent energy does the earth produce its bounties, and year by year continue its motion around the sun. An unseen hand guides the planets in their circuit of the heavens. A mysterious life pervades all nature--a life that sustains the unnumbered worlds throughout immensity, that lives in the insect atom which floats in the summer breeze, that wings the flight of the swallow and feeds the young ravens which cry, that brings the bud to blossom and the flower to fruit. The same power that upholds nature is working also in man." Education,100. Now we are to compare this statement with statement in order to arrive at the truth. "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." M.H.397. Here is how inspiration defines the knowledge of God, even the true knowledge of God: the highest education: "In a knowledge of God, all true knowledge and development have their source. Wherever we turn, in the physical, the mental, or the spiritual realm; in whatever we behold, apart from the blight of sin, this knowledge is revealed. Whatever line of investigation we pursue, with a sincere purpose to arrive at truth, we are brought in touch with the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all. The mind of man is brought into communion with the mind of God, the finite with the Infinite. The effect of such coummunion on body and mind and soul is beyond estimate." This is the true knowledge of God. Again, What is the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all? It is the mind of God! The mind of the Infinite One! And that, of course, is the Holy Spirit. "'Acquaint now yourself with God,' is His message to mankind." Education, p.14. sky When one takes the bulk of what Kellogg wrote, it seems clear that what he meant to say in the opening statement of this post is that God is not only behind or above nature but He also, by His Spirit, pervades all created things. Otherwise, he would be contradicting himself if he meant to say that God is only to be found in nature. In that case, he would be teaching something, yes, akin to pantheism. "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Next one: Kellogg said: "There is present in the tree a power which creates and maintains it, a tree-maker in the tree, a flower-maker in the flower." (LT, page 29) John317 ______________________ And that power is Christ through the Spirit. "Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Ministry of Healing, p.416. Thus we are "brought in touch with the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." Educ.14. "To those who thus acquaint themselves with Christ the earth will never be a lonely and desolate place. It will be their Father's house filled with the presence of Him who once dwelt among men." Education, p.120. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 Thank you John317 for citing the "offending pages". I have read those pages my self in the Living Temple so I have seen them in their context. Whether as stand alone or in context I found NOTHING in any of all those statements that was "pantheistic" or "tended toward pantheism". In fact I found that JH Kellogg's views are for the most part true! These concepts are indeed supported by the Bible. In fact they are in perfect line with what Ellen White herself stated about "nature" and "nature's God"! The "pantheism" rap in whatever form it may take is clearly false! Kellogg said, "God is actually within us, a real, living, ever present power.." (LT, page 53) "God dwells in man." (LT, page 36) This isn't true. God doesn't actually dwell within mankind. The Holy Spirit comes to live in believers, but God doesn't dwell within all men. On the other hand, Ellen White wrote: "The spiritualistic theories concerning God make His grace of no effect. If God is an essence pervading all nature, then He dwells in all men; and in order to attain holiness, man has only to develop the power within him. These theories, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They do away with the necessity for the atonement and make man his own savior. These theories regarding God make His word of no effect, and those who accept them are in great danger of being led finally to look upon the whole Bible as a fiction." Ministry of Healing, pages 428, 429. NOTE: In the above, Ellen White denies that God dwells in all men. John 14:23-- Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Through the Holy Spirit, Christ and the Father come to the believer and make Their home with him, but God is not dwelling in all men irresepctive of their relationship to Christ. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Next one: Kellogg taught that when we eat and drink, we receive God. This began to be taught at the Battle Creek Sanitarium and College. (GC Bulletin, 1899, page 58 ff) John317 _____________ John, this is a deep spiritual truth that not even one in one thousand understands. "He who eats Me, even he shall live by me." John 6:57. These words are true both of our physical and spiritual natures. Mrs. White quotes the words of Jesus, "Unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood you have no life in you," and then says: "This is true of our physical nature... Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food but he is nourished by the flesh and blood of Christ." Desire of Ages, 660. A few sentences down she writes, "The light shining from that Communion service in the upper chamber makes sacred the provisions for our daily life. The family table becomes as the table of the Lord, and every meal a sacrament." Idem, 660. Simply because, "It is His life that we receive in the sunshine, in the pure, sweet air, and in the food which builds up our bodies and sustains our strength. It is by His life that we exist, hour by hour, moment by moment. Except as perverted by sin, all His gifts tend to life, to health and joy." Education, p.197. And then, on the same page of Desire of Ages, she writes, "And how much more are Christ's words true of our spiritual nature. He declares, 'Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal life.' It is by receiving the life for us poured out on Calvary's cross, that we can live the life of holiness. And this life we receive by receiving His word, by doing those things which He has commanded. Thus we become one with Him." Idem, 660. For "In every command and in every promise of the word of God is the power, the very life of God by which the command may be fulfilled and the promise realized." C.O.L.39; Educ.124. "God's holy, educating Spirit, is in His word." C.O.L.132. So what Dr. Kellogg said is not so farfetched after all. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Through the Holy Spirit, Christ and the Father come to the believer and make Their home with him, but God is not dwelling in all men irresepctive of their relationship to Christ. John317 ______________ John, this has always been your "straw man" when discussing this topic. True, God and Christ by the Holy Spirit do not "dwell" in all man by faith but by the Spirit they are moving in all men, working in and through all. They are moving in all things. (M.H.416) That is what I am saying, not what you are saying. Speaking of the human organism, she says, "The entire being is under the supervision of God." Only by the Spirit is this made possible. "In God we live and move and have our being." This is not saying that God and man are one spiritually without the exercise of faith in Christ and His merits but that without God there is no life for "He is the life of everything that lives." Educ.197. He is physical life to everything that lives. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 "The spiritualistic theories concerning God make His grace of no effect. If God is an essence pervading all nature, then He dwells in all men; and in order to attain holiness, man has only to develop the power within him. These theories, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They do away with the necessity for the atonement and make man his own savior. These theories regarding God make His word of no effect, and those who accept them are in great danger of being led finally to look upon the whole Bible as a fiction." Ministry of Healing, pages 428, 429. John317 _________________________ We have discussed this time and time again and you still don't get it John. If someone teaches that nature is God then man is God too and therefore God dwells in all man but notice how such a teaching would mean that God is reduced to a mere impersonal "essence" pervading all things. This is pantheism. But the truth is that "The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pevades all created things." Education, 101. See the difference now? Only the Holy Spirit can help us see the difference. It is a very sutble one. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 Ellen White pointed out that MUCH of what Kellogg had to say was in fact truth. Closely emulating or agreeing with her position, mixed with dangerous error. Herein lies the problem with Kelloggs views, having a form or Godliness but denying the power thereof. Thus, the deception is a powerful one. There is no doubt page after page and quote after quote could be posted from Kelloggs book that IS "truth". But the end result presents a concept of the character of God that is entirely misleading. Please then be very specific just exactly what is the difference between Ellen White and what she states and JH Kellogg and what he states. You assert that there is a difference, so tell me exactly what is this difference. You state Kellogg has a "form of Godliness but deny the power thereof". Tell me exactly and factually how that is! Tell me exactly and factually just what is this dangerous error that JH Kellogg espouses! Just exactly and factually what is Kellogg's "concept of the character of God that is ENTIRELY MISLEADING"! Can you or can you not answer these charges against Kellogg that you have made?
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 "Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God Himself is actually and truly present." (LT, page 28) And you are saying that this is pantheism? Why? Ministry of Healing, p.397, says: "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." "The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4); yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. He has an intimate knowledge of and a personal interest in all the works of His hand." Education, 132. Therefore, "Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything." Testimonies, Vol.8,325. On the one hand, Kellogg says that "God Himself is actually and truly present" in nature. On the other, Ellen White says that life is the manifestation of God Himself, who is the source of all life. Notice how Ellen White says we can see God's "presence in everything": Those who judge of God from His handiwork, and not from the suppositions of great men, see His presence in everything. They behold His smile in the glad sunshine, and His love and care for man in the rich fields of autumn. Even the adornments of the earth, the grass of living green, the lovely flowers of every hue, the lofty and varied trees of the forest, the dancing brook, the noble river, the placid lake, testify to the tender, fatherly care of God and to His desire to make His children happy. {8T 325.4} Notice that Kellogg says "God Himself is actually and truly present" in nature, The 1828 Webster's Dictionary's definition of "actually" is: ACTUALLY, adv. In fact; really; in truth. Ellen White, on the other hand, says that "life is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." Those are two entirely different kinds of statements. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Thank you John317 for citing the "offending pages". I have read those pages my self in the Living Temple so I have seen them in their context. Whether as stand alone or in context I found NOTHING in any of all those statements that was "pantheistic" or "tended toward pantheism". In fact I found that JH Kellogg's views are for the most part true! These concepts are indeed supported by the Bible. In fact they are in perfect line with what Ellen White herself stated about "nature" and "nature's God"! The "pantheism" rap in whatever form it may take is clearly false! Given this truth, it seems to me that what "sky" has stated about "conspiracy" within the Brethren is very powerfully true. It was a money and power grab! As to whether Ellen White is a witting or unwitting co-conspirator is not as clear. I tend to doubt that Ellen White, herself, would have any involvement in such a heinous plan! That of course is my personal opinion. As to whether anyone on her staff, or in her own family, or connected in any way with her specific work that is a different matter. I can see where such persons would easily line up with the "Brethren" in their bid for money and power. Some may have been involved to advance their own power and agendas, while their may have been others who thought honestly by siding with the "Brethren" that they were supporting God and as such further the "Work" that would bring Jesus back here! The "Bottom Line" is the "Brethren" never did get their grubby little hands on JH Kellogg's assets and they did not end his power. I find this whole sordid mess a great embarrassment to the SDA Church and a lost opportunity to have an increased influence in the world for good. All that because a few "men" were greedy like Judas Iscariot. This is a horrid wound the Church still has not recovered from. God cannot be pleased! Could the "fires" have indeed been God's Hand? Yes! In destroying these great entities God was showing His displeasure at the SDA Church and it's greedy "Brethren". Thus, God assured that the "Brethren" would not get their grubby and greedy hands on those assets. SDA try and cover this up by stating it was about "dispersion". That is laughable because the "work" was indeed growing outside Battle Creek. Besides the movement that followed these tragedies did not solve the problem of dispersion because the "tendency to gather in conclaves" continued unabated even after the moves. The conclaves just happened in a different geographical location. They continue to this day. Many of you out there in "webland" are part of these large conclaves of SDA! So the dispersion theory is false! Debunked big time! hmmmm I believe you hit the nail right on the head. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 "Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God Himself is actually and truly present." (LT, page 28) And you are saying that this is pantheism? Why? Ministry of Healing, p.397, says: "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." "The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4); yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. He has an intimate knowledge of and a personal interest in all the works of His hand." Education, 132. Therefore, "Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything." Testimonies, Vol.8,325. On the one hand, Kellogg says that "God Himself is actually and truly present" in nature. On the other, Ellen White says that life is the manifestation of God Himself, who is the source of all life. Notice how Ellen White says we can see God's "presence in everything": Those who judge of God from His handiwork, and not from the suppositions of great men, see His presence in everything. They behold His smile in the glad sunshine, and His love and care for man in the rich fields of autumn. Even the adornments of the earth, the grass of living green, the lovely flowers of every hue, the lofty and varied trees of the forest, the dancing brook, the noble river, the placid lake, testify to the tender, fatherly care of God and to His desire to make His children happy. {8T 325.4} Notice that Kellogg says "God Himself is actually and truly present" in nature, The 1828 Webster's Dictionary's definition of "actually" is: ACTUALLY, adv. In fact; really; in truth. Ellen White, on the other hand, says that "life is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." Those are two entirely different kinds of statements. John, you have been very adamant on this forum that the Holy Spirit is God in the highest sense, have you not? If by the Spirit God is present everywhere, what is the problem then with saying that God is present in everything if the Spirit is God and it is by the Spirit that God is present everywhere or in everything. When Mrs. White speaks of "The Presence that pervades all created things" is she not speaking of the actual presence of God in nature by the Holy Spirit? You do not believe this and therefore you have no choice but to teach that the power pervading all created things is a mere impersonal essence and therefore that would be teaching something akin to pantheism! sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Following Ellen Whites counsel on this matter I have NO intention of reading, studying or posting quotes on Kelloggs book or theology. The matter is settled, the Lords messenger has been clear on the position we should take. YOU reject that counsel. Which, seriously, leaves me wondering. How does anyone decide which parts of the Testimonies are inspired and which parts are merely parroted opinions of someone else who influenced her writing? It must be terribly confusing trying to walk THAT mine field. I'm disappointed Sky, in this revelation of your theology. It calls into question everything you have ever posted on any subject. Like Kelloggs theology, I think it might be best for some of us to just ignore it all together. I will leave this matter to John to attempt to resolve, I think he has done an excellent job to date. The BIG thing I have learned from this thread is how careful one has to be when it comes to accepting whatever the latest "popular" position is that comes around. No matter WHO presents it! Sky says, "I have read those pages my self in the Living Temple so I have seen them in their context." Perhaps herein lays the problem Sky, you actually read the book! Not good...
Administrators Gail Posted July 13, 2011 Administrators Posted July 13, 2011 Quote: Those who judge of God from His handiwork, and not from the suppositions of great men, see His presence in everything. They behold His smile in the glad sunshine, and His love and care for man in the rich fields of autumn. Even the adornments of the earth, the grass of living green, the lovely flowers of every hue, the lofty and varied trees of the forest, the dancing brook, the noble river, the placid lake, testify to the tender, fatherly care of God and to His desire to make His children happy. {8T 325.4} This is how I've always understood it, too. The other way sounds like New Age thinking. Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
miz3 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 This isn't true. God doesn't actually dwell within mankind. The Holy Spirit comes to live in believers, but God doesn't dwell within all men. I have seen John317 that you have asserted in heated debate on other threads that the Holy Spirit is indeed God just as the Father is God, just as Jesus Christ is God. Are you now rejecting what you have clearly said on these other threads? Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is NOT GOD? Living in something is the same thing as dwelling in something. For instance you live in your house, you also dwell in your house. The two things mean the same thing. So you are making a contradiction when you say the Holy Spirit comes to live in believers but does not dwell in believers. HMMM! "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me" Galatians 2:20. That is very specific in that Jesus Christ (God) "lives in me"! In me meaning dwelling in me! Being in the human entity! "For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom his whole family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith." Ephesians 3:14-17. Again, very explicit and specific that the "Spirit in your inner being" and "that Christ may DWELL in your heart. I believe it is clear John317 that the Bible teaches that God actually LIVES in us and that God actually DWELLS in us! Thus, your assertion of untruth is wrong!(see John317's words quoted above).
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Miz, what I understand John saying is that the Spirit cannot be in man, not even working in man, or moving in man, until faith in Christ is exercised. It is true that Christ dwells in the heart by faith and it is by the the Holy Spirit that He dwells in the heart of the believers but it is also true that by the Holy Spirit the entire being of man is under the supervision of God and this is true of all men. In fact it is true of all created beings. There is a difference and I am hoping and praying that this difference will be discerned. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Quote: Those who judge of God from His handiwork, and not from the suppositions of great men, see His presence in everything. They behold His smile in the glad sunshine, and His love and care for man in the rich fields of autumn. Even the adornments of the earth, the grass of living green, the lovely flowers of every hue, the lofty and varied trees of the forest, the dancing brook, the noble river, the placid lake, testify to the tender, fatherly care of God and to His desire to make His children happy. {8T 325.4} This is how I've always understood it, too. The other way sounds like New Age thinking. Gail, Do you with the eyes of your understanding see God's presence in everything? In other words do you with the eyes of your understanding see the invisible, "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all?" Do you with the eyes of your understanding see that "Nature in her works testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will?" Education,14; M.H.416. This Intelligence, this agency of a Being is none other then the Holy Spirit. Do you agree? sky :) "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Club, you say John has done a good job so far. It is one thing to be able to quote but to understand what is quoted is another. John has not yet acknowledged in nature the continual presence of God by the Holy Spirit. If he has, please show where. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 Ellen White by her own admission was not above or even equal to the Bible. She knew this to be true because she was constantly expressing her own opinions. Of course Ellen White was not above or equal to the Bible in authority. No one is suggesting otherwise. But the reason was not that she was "constantly expressing her own opinions." What she said about Dr. Kellogg was due to visions and dreams that God gave her. She wasn't merely expressing her own personal opinions. This is made obvious by a close reading of the communications between Mrs. White and Dr. Kellogg. The reason Ellen White was not above or equal to the Bible is that the canon was already closed, and all prophets coming after the closure of the canon must be judged by the canon. All prophets are judged by the previous true prophets of God. This is the same with Ellen White. So the Bible is the measuring-stick of all doctrine and faith. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 This isn't true. God doesn't actually dwell within mankind. The Holy Spirit comes to live in believers, but God doesn't dwell within all men. I have seen John317 that you have asserted in heated debate on other threads that the Holy Spirit is indeed God just as the Father is God, just as Jesus Christ is God. Are you now rejecting what you have clearly said on these other threads? Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is NOT GOD? No, of course I am NOT denying that the Holy Spirit is God. You evidently totally misunderstand what I am saying. But the Holy Spirit does not dwell within all human beings. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 Quote: Those who judge of God from His handiwork, and not from the suppositions of great men, see His presence in everything. They behold His smile in the glad sunshine, and His love and care for man in the rich fields of autumn. Even the adornments of the earth, the grass of living green, the lovely flowers of every hue, the lofty and varied trees of the forest, the dancing brook, the noble river, the placid lake, testify to the tender, fatherly care of God and to His desire to make His children happy. {8T 325.4} This is how I've always understood it, too. The other way sounds like New Age thinking. Exactly. This is different from the way Kellogg expressed it. He is saying that God is REALLY, ACTUALLY, TRULY and IN FACT in the things of nature. There's a clear difference between this and what Ellen White is saying. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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