A Revived Roman Empire?

[Truth Files]

The prophetic scriptures are very explicit regarding the Islamic nations [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 36:1-5; 38:5-6; Obadiah 1:1-21; Micah 5:5-6; Zechariah 12:2-3; that surround Israel at the time of the end and it is this culture and setting that will produce Satan's beast in the little horn .... all of the related prophetic visions make this distinction, and none of them point to a western backdrop for the same

The entire theme of the Middle Eastern culture and kingdoms that have ruled there since the flood present the correct view .... it is human theology and the insertion of speculative ideas that become flawed and off course

The example of a revived Roman Empire is one of the biggest .... Rome is not even in the scope of the prophetic scriptures .... and none can prove that it is

Neither is the name of the Roman Empire or any actions taken by the same in the scope as are all of the others explicitally and specifically named in scripture .... all of this fabrication is bogus and not a part of the prophecies of the Bible prophets ..... not one of them has this view

Neither does the Lord have it .... all of His projection recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is for the time of the end of this present age ..... this 70th week decreed for Israel has not come yet .... and 70 A.D. is not described in it, or in any of the writings of His prophets

The kingdoms of the Middle East in the scope are all named in the visions: Babylon, Media/Persia, Syrio/Babylonia .... lion, bear, leopard .... [Daniel 7:3-6; Revelation 13:1-4

Rome was none of these during its existence and neither were the subsequent and following Middle Eastern rules of the Arabian, Mongol, Parthian, Ottoman, and British .... none of these are seen and described in the scope of the prophetic visions

There is a breach in all of the prophetic visions between the end of the 69th week decreed for Israel [about 33 A.D.] .... and the beginning of the 70th week still pending [the visions are silent regarding this time lapse]

The Lord's nation of Israel rejected Him as their Messiah and King and He has delayed His second advent because of it

This setting is going to change and a believing remnant part of Israel will turn to Him during the coming 70th week [Jeremiah 30; 31; Daniel 9:24-27; Micah 5:5-6; Joel 2; 3; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24:15-16; Romans 11:25-36; Revelation 12:6; 12:14-17]

Those who ignore these facts are teaching an extra-biblical idea that was born out of the reformation period with the objective to make the Bible prophecies fit the immediate conditions of those who dreamed it up ..... the reformers' understanding of Bible prophecy in their day was not sufficient and the list of them and their subsequent followings is a long one

They spent far to much time using the prophetic scriptures to support their own ambitions and not enough time in study with the Lord's guidance for correct rendering

They attempted to brand the popes and the RCC as the European setting and as the continuation of the rule of political Rome which would produce the coming empire of the "anti-christ"

This church and its teachings are very apostate for sure, but the organization is not recorded in the scope of the prophetic visions .... however, it is among those of professing christianity who have strayed, and a significant part of the Lord's negative evaluations contained within His message given in Revelation 2 and 3

Just because Rome was the next intruder into the Middle East after the fall of Syrio/Babylonia [a very Middle Eastern culture, and not western Grecian, or Roman] does not give the liberty to insert the empire into the scope of the prophetic visions .... there were several subsequent replacement rules in the Middle East after Rome, none of which are contained in the scope of the prophetic visions

This scope of the visions of the prophets simply does not allow for Rome's insertion [the visions are silent between the end of the 69th week decreed for Israel ..... and the beginning of the 70th week still pending]

As long as those who push the "Rome" concept continue with this extra-biblical fabrication, neither they or their followers will ever understand and render and interpret the prophecies with accuracy

A number of them will not move from their standing because they have convinced their memberships and want to retain them, written books, posted on public Internet forums, and have painted themselves into a corner with little or no possibility of escape

Pride often stands in their way and they simply will not return to the drawing board to evaluate their own misdirected off course teachings .... this does not bode well for their witnessing to a lost world

The Lord's prophetic Word is set and completed without flaw .... and all of it can be understood, past fulfilled, and future ..... otherwise there would be no purpose in providing those that belong to Him with information that is confusing and beyond one's understanding

If you observe them discussing Biblical exegesis among their own camp you will find them wretching over things like where to place the battle of Armageddon in the prophetic schedule in an attempt to prove out their flawed overview .... Armageddon is the final conclusive battle of the coming tribulation period of the Lord's wrath and judgment of 2550 days [Daniel 9, 12] and the scriptures are very clear regarding this truth [Ezekiel 39; Revelation 19:11-21]

They will do almost anything in an attempt to force fit their obscured renditions like inserting the battle of Armageddon before the 70th week decreed, or in the middle of it .... on and on they go with no satisfactory mutually held conclusions

The number one rule for rendering the prophetic scriptures is to refrain from drawing conclusions prematurely ..... one must build upon a solid foundation of the study and not to go beyond by adding unsupported ideas without completed evaluations .... only then should one move forward with additional discoveries from the scriptures that fit, not by adding extra-biblical speculations

So the reformers of today [those who base their views on the reformation movements of the past related to Bible prophecy] who carry the false idea of a revived European Rome in place of a continued Middle Eastern setting from antiquity to the time of the end, need to either adjust their thinking by revisiting the prophetic scriptures and get it right, or get out of the business of teaching it wrong

The preterist, post-tribulation view, and even some of the most visible of the pre-tribulation views have missed the correct prophetic picture presented in scripture

Those who do this have broken just about every scriptural precept with regard to the prophetic scriptures from speculated and flawed date setting to the view of an anti-christ Pope and a revived Roman Empire from Europe

Not only that, but many are also prime "replacement" theology carriers who replace national Israel's position in the prophetic scriptures and appropriate the same for themselves .... and any O.T. prophecies which refute replacement theology hands down are either relegated to allegory or swept under the rug

Bible prophecy is the Lord's grand revelation which authenticates His eternal power and presence, and must never be abused by interpretive manipulation for self gain .... all who do this will pay the price [Revelation 22:18-19]

Bible prophecy is not for those who abuse it and certainly not for amateurs who dabble in it .... this is why there is argumentation, division, and objective self-religious propriety among professing christianity today .... and this pathetic condition returns nothing but foolishness and negative witness to an unbelieving world

[cheddar]

So what rule of prophetic interpretation says that we can remove the 70th week from the 70 week prophecy?

You insert 2000 years between the 69th and 70th week - that sounds like a man-made rule to me.

The 70 weeks are either all in the past or all in the future you can't have it both ways.

[Truth Files]

I believe that all of the 70th week decreed for Israel is still pending

The last 2000 years running are at the Lord's option .... He will bring the 70th week when His is ready [Romans 11:25-36; 2Peter 3:9]

The covenant confirmed in Daniel 9 is the covenant that the Lord has with His nation of Israel [not His church composed of both Jew and gentile on matters of salvation and not national identity] presented in the context of the chapter [Jeremiah 31:31-37]

Only the Lord can confirm this covenant by executing the coming 70th week .... thereby reaching the 6 objectives for a believing remnant of Israel who will turn to Him during His coming hour [time] of trial [Revelation 3:10] ..... He is going to pressure Israel for turning to Him [Jeremiah 30; Daniel 12]

Visionary prophecy must be read carefully and in this case one needs to see that there are two princes involved in Daniel 9:26-27 .... the Lord .... and the other prince .... satan's beast of Revelation 13:1 and 17:8.

It is the Lord who was "cut off" at the end of the 69th week .... it is the other prince and His followers who will come and desecrate at the middle of the 70th week decreed [Daniel 9:26]

The vision then repeats this same contrast between the two princes

Daniel

9:27 And he [the Lord] shall confirm the covenant with many [the believing remnant of Israel] for one week: [note the : divider in the KJV]

.... and in the midst of the week he [the other prince] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

The Lord ["He"] will confirm the covenant .... the other prince cannot do this and would not because of the 6 objectives that will be met for Daniel's people, the believing remnant part of national Israel [Daniel 9:24; Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11:25-36]

Then the other prince ["he"] will cause the sacrifice oblation to cease. [israelite worship at the base of the western wall of the temple mount ... the most holy place for Israel today] [Jeremiah 30:5-7; Daniel 8:9-12; Zechariah 14:1-5; Matthew 24:15-16]

This other prince is Satan's beast in the little horn [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 11:36-45; 12:7; 2Thessalonians 2:2-12; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-14]

This king of the northern Middle East and his followers will invade, occupy and rule over Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount for 42 months before the Lord will pour out His wrath upon the desolaters [Jeremiah 30:1-7; Ezekiel 38:11-16; Daniel 11:41; Micah 5:5; Zechariah 14:1-5; Revelation 11:2; 12:3-17; 13:5]

None of the events of the time frame of the 70th week of 2,520 days has transpired yet and is still pending at this time [Romans 11:25-26]

In fact, there is a breach in the time lapse that can be found in all of the prophetic visions related to the time of the end of this present age.

Events on the earth between the end of the 69th week [about 33 A.D.] and the beginning of the 70th [still future] are not recorded in the scope of visionary prophecy ... many significant things have come and gone over the last 2,000 years and they are simply not there

For example: Daniel's visions track the geopolitical phases of the Middle East through the end of the rule of Antiochus IV [11:21-35] .... and then the rest of the unfulfilled portion jumps directly to the time of the end [Daniel 11:36-45; 12:1-12]

A remnant part of Israel has returned to the land today and surrounded by the nation's ancient enemies just as the prophetic scriptures tell .... to experience the coming 70th week decreed .... watch the Middle East

The Lord is setting up for His soon coming visitation and these things could begin before this day is over

He will come suddenly and with no warning .....so one must be ready just as He has said [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19]

[jasd]

>>So what rule of prophetic interpretation says that we can remove the 70th week from the 70 week prophecy?<<

The rule of necessity. ;-) The prophecy will not breakdown any other way than to utilize a ‘parenthesis’. Anyway, Jesus Christ acknowledged the rule and focused the attention of latter-day expositors of Writ upon it – by applying to it in the book of Luke:

Lu 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Lu 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Lu 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Jesus Christ acknowledged the gap/parenthesis, which existed in the prophecy of Isaiah – by separating the prophecy at the point I illustrated below...

Is 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

(parenthesis)

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; [...]

Besides, Daniel had prayed for all his people – Israel – which would have been all of the tribes inclusively. The Northern Kingdom with its attendant tribes – circa AD 34 – had long been, for the most part, lost to history – being in the midst of their seven times curse of 2,520 years... (worth noting is that with the exception of a few cities – those of the Southern Kingdom were also carried away with the Northern Kingdom in the multiple incursions of the land by Assyria)

The fulfillment of the 70-weeks prophecy has to have all Israel in view at some point – not simply the Jews of old Canaanland.

[jasd]

>>[israelite worship at the base of the western wall of the temple mount ... the most holy place for Israel today]<<

It may interest some that the 'wailing wall' in the Old City Jerusalem is actually Herod's wall and lined the way from the Temple to his living quarters... (Nat'l Geographic)

[cheddar]

The fulfillment of the 70-weeks prophecy has to have all Israel in view at some point – not simply the Jews of old Canaanland.

So who are the twelve tribes of the 144,000 – literal Jews or Christians?

The apostle Paul who was a literal Jew (a pharisee from the tribe of Benjamin) said he is not a Jew who is one outwardly. The children of the promise are counted for the seed of Abraham. He closed his letter to the Galatians referring to those who walk in Christ Jesus as the true Israel of God. Even James spoke of Christians as belonging to the twelve tribes of Israel. Faith is thicker than blood.

The New Jerusalem has twelve gates, each with a name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Anyone entering the city has to go thru one of those gates, so Christians have to belong to the twelve tribes in some way.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: jasd

The fulfillment of the 70-weeks prophecy has to have all Israel in view at some point – not simply the Jews of old Canaanland.

So who are the twelve tribes of the 144,000 – literal Jews or Christians?

The apostle Paul who was a literal Jew (a pharisee from the tribe of Benjamin) said he is not a Jew who is one outwardly. The children of the promise are counted for the seed of Abraham. He closed his letter to the Galatians referring to those who walk in Christ Jesus as the true Israel of God. Even James spoke of Christians as belonging to the twelve tribes of Israel. Faith is thicker than blood.

The New Jerusalem has twelve gates, each with a name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Anyone entering the city has to go thru one of those gates, so Christians have to belong to the twelve tribes in some way.

Well said. We can certainly say Amen to that.

sky

[Truth Files]

jasd has noted a very significant body of scripture related to the breach between the 69th and 70th weeks decreed for the Lord's nation of Israel in which the "acceptable year of the Lord" falls

And this time lapse, which is still running, is going to close suddenly [Romans 11:25-36] .... and the day of the Lord will begin ..... to pressure His nation of Israel for turning and to take vengeance upon an intransigent and unbelieving world [a period of 2550 days [the 70th week decreed for Israel plus 30 days]] .... the day of the Lord [2Peter 3:7-13]

.... and to then bring in His millennial kingdom upon the earth for 1000 years [He will restore the kingdom to Israel and rule Himself from Jerusalem [isaiah 11; 27;13; Micah 4:1-3; 5:5-6; Zechariah 14; Matthew 24:29-31; Acts 1:6; Revelation 20:1-4]

Satan will then be released to cause another human rebellion which will fail [Revelation 20:7-10]

And then the gathering and judgment of all of the spirits of the unbelieving human dead [tares] human dead from the beginning of human creation and their destruction in the Lord's lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15]

.... then eternity will begin with new heavens and earth restored to their original and perfect condition [Revelation 21]

And the 144,000 of the children of Israel are believing ethnic Israelites who will carry the gospel of the kingdom to Israel and the nations during the coming 70th week [Matthew 24:14; Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7]

[skyblue888]

And we thought we had heard it all.

Honestly.

One cannot use the geographical method of interpretation with the prophecies regarding last day events. The 70th week has already been fulfilled in the time allotted to the Jewish people which ended in A.D.34. The Jews ceased to be the professed people of God at that time when they stoned Stephen to death and never will be again except as individual Jews receive the Gospel of the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.

sky

[Truth Files]

Sky,

There are many very significant scriptures like the following that simply do not agree with your idea

Replacement theology is not supported by the prophetic word .... the theme of a separate national ethnic Israel is carried throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation

....the Lord's church is a different matter entirely and should never be mixed with national Israel .... He is not finished with His nation .... He is an Israelite by His humanity and still the Messiah and King of Israel

His rejection by the nation is going to change during the coming 70th week decreed and many of the nation are going to turn to Him and believe

Jeremiah

31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

[cheddar]

Sky,

There are many very significant scriptures like the following that simply do not agree with your idea

Replacement theology is not supported by the prophetic word .... the theme of a separate national ethnic Israel is carried throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation

....the Lord's church is a different matter entirely and should never be mixed with national Israel .... He is not finished with His nation .... He is an Israelite by His humanity and still the Messiah and King of Israel

His rejection by the nation is going to change during the coming 70th week decreed and many of the nation are going to turn to Him and believe

Jesus taught replacement theology - 'Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.' Matt 21:43

[skyblue888]

The 70th week was fulfilled between A.D.27 and A.D.34.

Christ was "cut off" or crucified in the middle of that week and in A.D.34 the Jews sealed their rejection of God's mercy.

After 1844 there are no more messages to be given to God's people that will be based on time.

sky

[Truth Files]

Sky and Cheddar,

Here is just one message of unfulfilled prophecy from the Lord and His related scriptures for both of you .... I can post numerous others

None of the following events have taken place in the past ..... none of them

All still pending .... and these things will take place with no doubt

A regathered Israel and the nation's enemies round about is the focus .... not the Lord's church [Psalms 83; Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9:24-27; 11:41; 12:7; 12:1-13; Joel 2: 3; Micah 5:5-15; Zechariah 12:1-3; 13:8-9; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-36; Romans 11:25-36; Revelation 11: 2-14; 12:6; 12:14-17; 16:1-16; 19:11-21]

Your source of interpretation is obviously in error

The historical/allegorical method of interpretation of preterism, replacement theology, and kingdom now dominionism are all man-made follys .... not holy spirit revealed truth [2Peter 1:16-21]

Zechariah

14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

[ClubV12]

Stephen, the ideas you present here are nothing more than, as you put it, "man made folly" they are not "Holy Spirit derived truth".

Many biblical scholars of all different faiths recognize the 2,300 year prophecy as being a continual and FULFILLED timeline prophecy.

This version your teaching stands alone.

[Truth Files]

A few scriptures that refute the above ideas of a man

The Lord's prophetic word stands alone and is the only reliable source for truth

[Genesis 6; Psalms 2; Jeremiah 30; 31; Ezekiel 38; 39; Daniel 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 14; Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 21:35; 1Thessalonians 5:1-9; 2Thessalonians 2:2-12; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 6:12-17; 8; 9; 13; 14; 16; 19:11-21; 20:7-10; 20:11-15]

2Peter

3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

And by the Way the 2300 evenings and mornings are 1150 24 hour days ..... not 2300 years [Daniel 8:14; 8:26]

This time frame is part of the second 1260 days of the future 70th week decreed for national Israel

[ClubV12]

"The Lord's prophetic word stands alone and is the only reliable source for truth."

Anybody could say that and I'm sure we all agree, whats your point? MY point is how you interpret scripture, or prophecy. You see 1150 days. Most biblical scholars and myself see 2,300 days. As the bible says, a day for a year. An evening and a morning are a day. This is a well recognized application, I don't know where you come up with the 1150 number.

[cheddar]

I agree that many of the OT prophets prophesied about the last days - the real question then is who is the Israel or Jerusalem of the last days?

Quote:

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Here is a passage referencing the last days showing that false Jews will be made to worship Christians.

[Dr. Rich]

This thread points out the need for the ONE person Jesus prophesied about in Matt. 17:11 and 24:45. There is only ONE truth and that truth is absolute.

Rev. 1:1 and Dan. 12:10 shows that only the 144,000 living bondservants will understand end time prophecy correctly. Why? Because it has nothing to do with people who are now dead.

[Truth Files]

Club said:

"Anybody could say that and I'm sure we all agree, whats your point? MY point is how you interpret scripture, or prophecy. You see 1150 days. Most biblical scholars and myself see 2,300 days. As the bible says, a day for a year. An evening and a morning are a day. This is a well recognized application, I don't know where you come up with the 1150 number."

See my post "70 x 7"

The day for a year theory is not scriptural for many reasons

I will give you an example of a direct failure of this method of prophetic time value

William miller used it and his prediction for the second coming failed 3 times .... then EGW had to cover with a completely different idea that presents a non-scriptural second coming

Prophetic time value for a day is just that .... one 24 hour day and the prophetic year is equal to 360 days .... these absolutes can be proven bu historical records

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

The fulfillment of the 70-weeks prophecy has to have all Israel in view at some point – not simply the Jews of old Canaanland.

>>So who are the twelve tribes of the 144,000 – literal Jews or Christians?<<

“literal Jews”? In part only – depending upon your perspective – whether those would be of the tribe of Judah only or inclusively those also of Benjamin and of Levi, which comprised the Southern Kingdom of Judah. (some include Simeon and perhaps Reuben{?}, but by and large it is recognized that the Southern Kingdom comprised the three tribes I first noted)

A meaning of the term Gentiles is – 'those not of us', which would have properly referred to the tribes of the Northern Kingdom. (you’ll note that Jesus Christ’s declarative to His Disciples was to go first to the ‘put away’ of Israel...

Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (Acts 1:8 notwithstanding –jasd)

Matt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(they would have been the dispersed of the Northern Kingdom)

>>The apostle Paul who was a literal Jew (a pharisee from the tribe of Benjamin) said he is not a Jew who is one outwardly.<<

Not certain which direction you wish to take the above, but let me note:

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

The underlined in the above text is conditional – some translations render it “if he is only one outwardly”.

>>The children of the promise are counted for the seed of Abraham.<<

I think that goes without saying...

>>He closed his letter to the Galatians referring to those who walk in Christ Jesus as the true Israel of God.<<

Indeed. Many from what later became France (Gaul) migrated and were known in Biblical times as Galatians. I believe they were among the dispersed of the Northern Kingdom. That said, Jesus Christ also said that His sheep hear His voice – and for the most part these last two millennia – they were Caucasians – true Israel.

>>Even James spoke of Christians as belonging to the twelve tribes of Israel.<<

That would be true - in general. Note my above use of “grafted”.

>>Faith is thicker than blood.<<

That’s a nice aphorism – playing nicely upon “...thicker than water”, eh?

>>The New Jerusalem has twelve gates, each with a name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.<<

Not entirely true – if I recall, Dan is not named there – and though Manasses is there named – his brother Ephraim is not. ??

>>Anyone entering the city has to go thru one of those gates, so Christians have to belong to the twelve tribes in some way.<<

How about this?—those tribes included Xtians – with the emphasis placed upon the natural dispensational birthright. In other words, Gd’s unconditional promises re the tribes – fulfilled...

[ClubV12]

"...then EGW had to cover with a completely different idea that presents a non-scriptural second coming."

I thought you said you knew a lot about Ellen White? Obviously not! EGW had nothing to do with establishing Millers dates. She LEARNED of the date FROM Miller.

What Hiram Edson did FIRST, before Ellen White, was establish WHAT the date meant! He then spoke to Ellen White on the subject.

Again, EGW NEVER set any dates.

[Truth Files]

Club,

I wasn't going to post this, but you have forced my hand .... I know exactly what EGW has done

EGW was a false prophet and she did predict many false datings, but her cover up with regard to William Miller was to say that Miller was in fact correct with his dating

She did this by inventing the investigative judgment ruse which has no scriptural support ..... and she also has added much speculation and contrived extra-Biblical ideas of her own

You are following a false prophet

[ClubV12]

Glad we cleared that up Stephen, it's nice to know exactly where people stand on the status of the prophet, the Lords messenger and her inspired writings to the people of God.

Forcing some ones hand is nothing more than bringing them to chose whom they will serve and giving a pointed direct testimony. I choose to follow the people for whom God places His supreme affection on, the Seventh-day Adventists. His church on earth.

And you chose to follow whom?

[Truth Files]

Not what I meant by forcing the hand in this case .... I typically do not dwell upon exposing the behavior of others, but to give light to the prophetic scriptures

But since you brought EGW to the discussion, I have responded

.... and neither do I think that the SDA is exclusively His "church" on the earth as you do

I choose to follow Jesus Christ and have no affiliation with any professing christian movement .... never have ..... never will

Ones's affilliation with the same will not save them .... only Jesus Christ can do this

Many hae been mislead to think that they must affiliate .... or they are lost .... this is not true

The SDA does this, the RCC does this .... and so do many others

I caution anyone about following the doctrines of those who have created proprietary standing by their teaching which can have an adverse effect upon their own salvation whether they realize it or not

[ClubV12]

Stephen says.

"Many have been mislead to think that they must affiliate..."

I have met few that believe that within the SDA church. It is commonly accepted that salvation is an individual matter and the church affiliation guarentees nothing in that regard. So WHY does God have a church? In the counsel of many we find truth and encourage one another along the way. Being part of a body of believers is Gods way of reaching man kind. All of heaven is organized and orderly, no one angel stands alone.

God does not work by one man alone, apart from the body of believers. When you stand alone, apart from the brethren, it is certain your theology will be confused. Thus confusion reigns in the theology you are presenting here, Stephen.

For those who have been given great light, and rejected it, the darkness will also be very great. As you have had knowledge of Sister White and rejected her counsel, you are in a very dark place.