A Revived Roman Empire?

[Dr. Rich]

That prophecy was for plan A IF Israel/Jews had gotten rid of sin as Dan. 9:24 states. Peroblem is, that prophecy was time sensitive and since we are on plan B, that prophecy will NEVER happen! Simple? UBETCHA!

[Lysimachus]

jasd,

So I see you are a dispensationalist as well. Wow. It is like a plague in this forum, lol.

[Lysimachus]

What does "COI" stand for?

[John317]

Ellen White made the antichrist out to be a single man.

The original Antichrist is Satan, but there are many people through whom Satan works, and these are all antichrists. Among these antichrists is the man of sin, the pope, that is, the papal system. {ST, March 12, 1894 par. 3}

(You will notice below that when Ellen White refers to Satan, she capitalizes the word, "Antichrist.")

Ellen White uses the words "the antichrist" only once, as follows:

Quote:

The schism, with all the strife and corruption which it caused, prepared the way for the Reformation, by enabling the people to see what the papacy really was. In a tract which he published, “On the Schism of the Popes,” Wycliffe called upon the people to consider whether these two priests were not speaking the truth in condemning each other as the antichrist. “The fiend,” said he, “no longer reigns in one but in two priests, that men may the more easily, in Christ's name, overcome them both.” {GC88 86.3}

If interested, the following paragraphs give us a good, representative view of the variety of ways in which Ellen White used the term, "antichrist":

Quote:

Antichrist, meaning all who exalt themselves against the will and work of God, will at the appointed time feel the wrath of Him who gave Himself that they might not perish but have eternal life. All who persevere in obedience, all who will not sell their souls for money or for the favor of men, God will register in the book of life.-- Manuscript 9, 1900. {3SM 402.1}

In the counsels of the synagogue of Satan it was determined to obliterate the sign of allegiance to God in the world. Antichrist, the man of sin, exalted himself as supreme in the earth, and through him Satan has worked in a masterly way to create rebellion against the law of God and against the memorial of his created works. Is this not sin and iniquity? What greater contempt could be cast upon the Lord God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, than is cast upon him by ignoring the Sabbath, which he instituted, sanctified, and blessed, that it might ever be a memorial of his power as Creator? How dare men change and profane the day which God has sanctified? How dare the Christian world accept the spurious sabbath, the child of the Papacy? The Christian world has nourished and cherished the spurious sabbath, as though it had a divine origin, when the fact is that it originated with the father of lies, and was introduced to the world by his human agent, the man of sin. The false sabbath has been upheld through superhuman agency in order that God might be dishonored. It is a sign of Satan's supremacy in the earth, for men are worshiping the God of this world. {ST, March 12, 1894 par. 3}

The man of sin who exalted himself above God, and thought to change times and laws, brought about the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week. In doing this he made a breach in the law of God. Just prior to the great day of God, a message is sent forth to warn the people to come back to their allegiance to the law of God which antichrist has broken down. Attention must be called to the breach in the law by precept and example. I was shown that the third angel proclaiming the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, represents the people who receive this message and raise the voice of warning to the world, to keep the commandments of God and his law as the apple of the eye, and that in response to this warning many would embrace the Sabbath of the Lord.” {LS80 236, 238}

The class which denies the Father and the Son is rapidly increasing in the world, and the name given to this class by the Bible is antichrist. There are many who have their names upon the church records, who claims to possess superior piety, and yet should Christ appear among them, they would rebuke the Son of God. There are men who profess to be ministers of the Gospel who are teaching heresy, and deceiving many, and leading thousands in the way of apostasy. {ST, July 4, 1895 par. 4}

Men are taking sides, according to their choice. Those that are feeding on the word of God will show this by their practise; they are on the Lord's side, seeking by precept and example to reform the world. All that have refused to be taught of God, hold the traditions of men. They at last pass over on the side of the enemy, against God, and are written, "antichrist." The people of God, who understand our position in this world's history, are, with ears open and hearts softened and subdued, pressing together in unity -- one with Jesus Christ. Those who will not practise the lessons of Christ, but keep themselves in hand to mold themselves, find in antichrist the center of their union. While the two parties stand in collision, the Lord will appear, and shine before his ancients gloriously. He will set up a kingdom that shall stand forever. {SpTA09 55, 56}

Those who in this great crisis allow themselves to be more on the side of the world than of God, will eventually place themselves wholly on the side of the world. Those who become confused in their understanding of the Word, who fail to see the meaning of antichrist, will surely place themselves on the side of antichrist. There is no time for us to assimilate with the world. Daniel is standing in his lot and in his place. The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood; they interpret each other. They give to the world truths which everyone should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days, they will explain themselves. {PH139 11,12}

The religion of Jesus is endangered. It is being mingled with worldliness. Worldly policy is taking the place of the true piety and wisdom that comes from above, and God will remove His prospering hand from the conference. Shall the Ark of the Covenant be removed from this people? Shall idols be smuggled in? Shall false principles and false precepts be brought into the sanctuary? Shall antichrist be respected? Shall the true doctrines and principles given us by God, which have made us what we are, be ignored? Shall God's instrumentality, the publishing house, become a mere political, worldly institution? This is directly where the enemy, through blinded, unconsecrated men, is leading us. {21MR 448.3}

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20. The people of God are directed to the Scriptures as their safeguard against the influence of false teachers and the delusive power of spirits of darkness. Satan employs every possible device to prevent men from obtaining a knowledge of the Bible; for its plain utterances reveal his deceptions. At every revival of God's work the prince of evil is aroused to more intense activity; he is now putting forth his utmost efforts for a final struggle against Christ and His followers. The last great delusion is soon to open before us. Antichrist is to perform his marvelous works in our sight. So closely will the counterfeit resemble the true that it will be impossible to distinguish between them except by the Holy Scriptures. By their testimony every statement and every miracle must be tested.

Those who endeavor to obey all the commandments of God will be opposed and derided. They can stand only in God. (DD 36)

Fallen angels upon earth form confederations with evil men. In this age antichrist will appear as the true Christ, and then the law of God will be fully made void in the nations of our world. Rebellion against God's holy law will be fully ripe. But the true leader of all this rebellion is Satan, clothed as an angel of light. Men will be deceived and will exalt him to the place of God, and deify him.--Review and Herald, Sept. 12, 1893. {Ev 365, 366}

Continued

[John317]

Continued

Ellen White's use of "antichrist."

Quote:

Those who keep God's commandments, those who live not by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, compose the church of the living God. Those who choose to follow antichrist are subjects of the great apostate. Ranged under the banner of Satan, they break God's law and lead others to break it. They endeavor so to frame the laws of nations that men shall show their loyalty to earthly governments by trampling upon the laws of God's kingdom. {7BC 949.9}

Satan is diverting minds with unimportant questions, in order that they shall not with clear and distinct vision see matters of vast importance. The enemy is planning to ensnare the world. {7BC 949.10}

The so-called Christian world is to be the theater of great and decisive actions. Men in authority will enact laws controlling the conscience, after the example of the papacy. Babylon will make all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Every nation will be involved. . . [Revelation 18:3-7 quoted] (MS 24, 1891). {7BC 949.11}

All Heaven on Christ's Side.--The determination of Antichrist to carry out the rebellion he began in heaven will continue to work in the children of disobedience. Their envy and hatred against those who obey the fourth commandment will wax more and more bitter. But the people of God are not to hide their banner. They are not to ignore the commandments of God, and in order to have an easy time, go with the multitude to do evil. . . . {7BC 949.12}

The greater man's influence for good, under the control of the Spirit of God, the more determined will be the enemy to indulge his envy and jealousy toward him by religious persecution. But all heaven is on the side of Christ, not of Antichrist. Those who love God and are willing to be partakers with Christ in His sufferings, God will honor. Antichrist, meaning all who exalt themselves against the will and work of God, will at the appointed time feel the wrath of Him who gave Himself that they might not perish but have eternal life. All who persevere in obedience, all who will not sell their souls for money or for the favor of men, God will register in the book of life (MS 9, 1900). {7BC 950.1}

(Colossians 2:8; 1 Timothy 6:20.) Human Reason vs. God's Wisdom.--Many exalt human reason, idolize human wisdom, and set the opinions of men above the revealed wisdom of God. This affords opportunity for the working of Satan, and the spirit of Antichrist is far more widespread than any of us imagine. . . . {7BC 950.2}

The maxims of the world, that know not God, have been worked into the theories of the church. In the eyes of men, vain philosophy and science, falsely so-called, are of more value than the Word of God. The sentiment prevails to a large extent that the divine Mediator is not essential to the salvation of man. A variety of theories advanced by the so-called worldly-wise men for man's elevation, are believed and trusted in more than is the truth of God, as taught by Christ and His apostles. {7BC 950.3}

The lying spirit that enticed Eve in Eden, finds acceptance with the majority of earth's inhabitants today. Even the Christian world refuses to be converted by the Spirit of God, but listens to the prince of darkness, as he comes to them in the garb of an angel of light. The spirit of Antichrist is prevailing in the world to a far greater extent than it has ever prevailed before. {7BC 950.4}

God has shown me that these men are Hazaels to prove a scourge to our people. They are wise above what is written. This unbelief of the very truths of God's word because human judgment cannot comprehend the mysteries of His work is found in every district, in all ranks of society. It is taught in most of our schools and comes into the lessons of the nurseries. Thousands who profess to be Christians give heed to lying spirits. Everywhere the spirit of darkness in the garb of religion will confront you. {5T 79.3}

If all that appears to be divine life were such in reality; if all who profess to present the truth to the world were preaching for the truth and not against it, and if they were men of God guided by His Spirit,--then might we see something cheering amid the prevailing moral darkness. But the spirit of antichrist is prevailing to such an extent as never before. Well may we exclaim: "Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men." I know that many think far too favorably of the present time. These ease-loving souls will be engulfed in the general ruin. Yet we do not despair. We have been inclined to think that where there are no faithful ministers there can be no true Christians, but this is not the case. God has promised that where the shepherds are not true He will take charge of the flock Himself. God has never made the flock wholly dependent upon human instrumentalities. But the days of purification of the church are hastening on apace. God will have a people pure and true. In the mighty sifting soon to take place we shall be better able to measure the strength of Israel. The signs reveal that the time is near when the Lord will manifest that His fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor. {5T 79.4}

The days are fast approaching when there will be great perplexity and confusion. Satan, clothed in angel robes, will deceive, if possible, the very elect. There will be gods many and lords many. Every wind of doctrine will be blowing. Those who have rendered supreme homage to "science falsely so called" will not be the leaders then. Those who have trusted to intellect, genius, or talent will not then stand at the head of rank and file. They did not keep pace with the light. Those who have proved themselves unfaithful will not then be entrusted with the flock. In the last solemn work few great men will be engaged. They are self-sufficient, independent of God, and He cannot use them. The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the day time we look toward heaven but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster. {5T 80.1}

The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness. {5T 81.1}

When trees without fruit are cut down as cumberers of the ground, when multitudes of false brethren are distinguished from the true, then the hidden ones will be revealed to view, and with hosannas range under the banner of Christ. Those who have been timid and self-distrustful will declare themselves openly for Christ and His truth. The most weak and hesitating in the church will be as David--willing to do and dare. The deeper the night for God's people, the more brilliant the stars. Satan will sorely harass the faithful; but, in the name of Jesus, they will come off more than conquerors. Then will the church of Christ appear "fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." {5T 79-82}

We are living in the time of the end. Thrones and churches have united to oppose God's purposes. The association of man with man, which God designed should be a means of strengthening goodness and happiness, is used as a means of strengthening evil and of developing tendencies to rebellion. Men have assumed despotic power, and human laws have been put in the place of the law of God. {RH, December 15, 1904 par. 1}

It is the reign of Antichrist. God's law is set aside. The Scriptures are exchanged for the traditions of men. Satan has become the ruler of the world; and in his hands temptation has become a science. He rules over a vast, well-organized empire. Sin has stimulated his followers into fearful activity. Men have combined to perpetuate evil. The sale of intoxicating liquor, destructive alike to soul and body, is legalized by Christian governments. {RH, December 15, 1904 par. 2}

Influences are to be set in motion that will proclaim to the world the first, second, and third angels' messages. The world is to be warned, and I beseech those who know the truth to do all in their power to sound the message, "Prepare to meet thy God." {RH, December 15, 1904 par. 3}

[Lysimachus]

“There is a sound rule of prophetic interpretation...” and “For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little” (Is 28:10) to the texts of Revelation 12 –

I am forced to conclude that that woman represents none other than national Israel. For, to whom else was given the signifiers of the sun, the moon, and the stars – but, according to the Patriarch Jacob/Israel,

The Woman does not respresent Israel, or God's Church. It represents "God's people". All those who will be saved.

The woman in Revelation 12:1-5 represents Old Testament Israel.

The woman in Revelation 12:6, 13-17 represents the New Testament Church.

This has always been the official position of the Adventist Church, and it is right on target.

It appears that you are truly not familiar with Adventist theology, or you would have recognized that the woman represents both at different time periods.

Just like Israel was the "Church in the wilderness", so the Woman represents Israel when she gives birth to the man-child, and then she and her remnant represent the Church after the man-child is born.

I will be praying for you jasb, because your theology is deadly. A sinful theology.

Why? Because you will not see the importance of God's Church having the Testimony of Jesus Christ, nor the need of keeping God's Ten Commandments.

Neither will you see that the Beast power and Harlot Woman is realized in the Papal System.

Those who do not see this, WILL be deceived. Wake up before it's too late. And quit deceiving yourselves.

[John317]

Here are 87 identifying marks of the beast of Revelation 13 and the little horn of Daniel 7 & 8:

Who is the beast?

Those who receive the mark of the beast will be subject to the wrath of God. Yet those who refuse to receive the mark of the beast will receive the wrath of the beast. Thus it is most important to identify the beast of Revelation 13.

The Protestant reformers, including Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Wesley, and many others, recognized that the beast power was mentioned under various synonyms in Scripture. It was the little horn of Daniel 7, the man of sin, the son of perdition who introduces the mystery of iniquity in 2 Thessalonians 2, the antichrist of 1 John 2 and 4 and 2 John, Babylon of Revelation 14, 16, 17, 18, and the whore and scarlet beast of Revelation 17. (See Part 6.)

The Scripture provides us with so many identifying features of the beast power that there is left to us no possible doubt whatsoever. Remembering the synonymous terms used for the beast as listed above, we find the following identifying factors of the beast.

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things (Daniel 7:7,8).

1. Arose from the fourth beast (the Roman Empire) of Daniel 7:7,8.

2. Displaced 3 of the 10 kingdoms into which the Roman Empire disintegrated — Daniel 7:8, 24.

3. Possessed human qualities — Daniel 7:8.

4. Spoke great words — Daniel 7:8.

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me: but I kept the matter in my heart (Daniel 7:25-28).

5. Made war against God’s saints and prevailed against them — Daniel 7:19-21, 25.

6. That war ceased when the saints possessed the kingdom of God — Daniel 7:22.

7. Is a kingdom — Daniel 7:24.

8. Will be different from the other 10 kingdoms — Daniel 7:24.

9. Shall speak great things against the Most High — Daniel 7:25.

10. Shall change times and laws — Daniel 7:25.

11. Shall possess authority for "time, times, and the dividing of times" — Daniel 7:25.

12. Its dominion shall be taken away in the judgment — Daniel 7:26.

13. It will be utterly destroyed — Daniel 7:26.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.…For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:3,4,7-11).

14. This power will prevail because of a falling away from the truth — 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

15. Opposes God — 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

16. Exalts itself above God — 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

17. Opposes true worship — 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

18. Sits in the temple of God — 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

19. Accepts the mystery of iniquity — 2 Thessalonians 2:7.

20. Will be destroyed at Christ’s coming — 2 Thessalonians 2:8.

21. Will do the works of Satan — 2 Thessalonians 2:9.

22. Will use signs and lying wonders — 2 Thessalonians 2:9.

23. Will do unrighteously — 2 Thessalonians 2: 10.

24. Will accept strong delusions — 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.…Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: But he that acknowledges the Son hath the Father also (1 John 2: 18, 22, 23).

25. Is a liar — 1 John 2:22.

26. Denies the Father and the Son — 1 John 2:22.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come: and even now already is it in the world (1 John 4:2,3).

27. Denies Christ came in the flesh (fallen nature) — 1 John 4:3,4.

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist (2 John 7).

28. Deceives — 2 John 7.

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:1-8).

29. This power rises out of a symbolic sea — Revelation 13:1.

30. Has 7 heads, 10 horns, and 10 crowns — Revelation 13:1.

31. Its name is blasphemy — Revelation 13:1.

32. Has the characteristics of a leopard (Greece — see Daniel 7); a bear (Medo-Persia); and a lion (Babylon) — Revelation 13:2.

33. The dragon (Satan; see Revelation 12:9) gives him power and authority — Revelation 13:2.

34. One of his heads received a deadly wound — Revelation 13:3.

35. The deadly wound was healed — Revelation 13:3.

36. All the world would wonder after the beast — Revelation 13:3.

37. The power leads out in worship of the dragon (Satan; Revelation 12:9; 20:2) — Revelation 13:4.

38. Satan gave him power — Revelation 13:4.

39. The beast itself was worshipped — Revelation 13:4.

40. Other nations were not able to make war with him — Revelation 13:4.

41. He spoke great things and blasphemies — Revelation 13:5.

42. He continues 42 months — Revelation 13:5.

43. Blasphemed the heavenly tabernacle — Revelation 13:6.

44. Blasphemed them that dwell in heaven — Revelation 13:6.

45. Made war with the saints and overcame them — Revelation 13:7.

46. Possessed power over all the world — Revelation 13:7.

47. Will attract almost universal worship — Revelation 13:8.

48. Only the most dedicated of Christians will resist his power and authority — Revelation 13:8.

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth, by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six (Revelation 13:11-18).

49. A second power arises exercising all the power of the beast — Revelation 13:11, 12.

50. The beast with the lamb-like horns will force all to worship the first beast — Revelation 13:12.

51. This second beast does great wonders — Revelation 13:13, 14.

52. The second beast deceives — Revelation 13:14.

53. The second beast makes an image to the first beast — Revelation 13:14.

54. The second beast enforces an universal death decree upon all, on behalf of the first beast — Revelation 13:15.

55. The second beast enforces the mark of the first beast — Revelation 13:17.

56. The second beast implements an economic boycott upon all who reject the mark of the beast — Revelation 13:17.

57. The number of the first beast is 666 — Revelation 13:18.

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:8-12).

58. The beast (Babylon) is fallen because she has made all nations drink of the wine of her fornication — Revelation 14:8.

59. There is fearful retribution for any who receive the mark of the beast — Revelation 14:9-11.

60. The saints who reject the mark of the beast will be those who keep the commandments of God and have Christ’s faith — Revelation 14:12.

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints (Revelation 15: 2,3).

61. The redeemed will have overcome the beast’s mark — Revelation 15:2,3.

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.…And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto them the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath (Revelation 16:2,3, 19).

62. Those with the mark of the beast receive the seven last plagues — Revelation 16:1,2.

63. It receives the wrath of God — Revelation 16:19.

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:1-18).

64. It will be judged — Revelation 17:1.

65. It commits spiritual fornication with national leaders and merchants — Revelation 17:2.

66. It is full of spiritual fornication (see Jeremiah 3:1-6) — Revelation 17:4.

67. The whore is Babylon —Revelation 17:5.

68. It murders saints — Revelation 17:6.

69. It shall be sent to perdition — Revelation 17:8.

70. It sits upon 7 mountains as does the city of Rome — Revelation 17:9.

Continued

[John317]

Continued

Eighty-Seven Identifying Marks of the beast of Rev. 13 and the Little Horn of Daniel 7 & 8:

71. It is one of the seven powers that have opposed God’s truth, and returns to associate with the seventh, it being also the eighth — Revelation 17:10,11.

72. These 10 horns, which represent Europe (see Daniel 7:24), shall become united in purpose in order to provide power and authority to the beast — Revelation 17: 12, 13.

73. The 10 horns and the beast make war with God and His people — Revelation 17:14.

74. Eventually the 10 horns will hate the beast and attack it — Revelation 17:15-17.

75. The woman represents a great city which reigns over the world’s leaders — Revelation 17:18.

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plague. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, oils, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, and saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth (Revelation 18: 2-24).

76. Babylon is vile — Revelation 18:2,3.

77. God urgently calls all men to come out of her faith — Revelation 18:4,5.

78. There will be a terrible retribution for Babylon — Revelation 18:4,5.

79. She has prostituted herself with leaders of nations and merchants and will receive the plagues — Revelation 18:8-24.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone (Revelation 19:20).

80. The beast is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone — Revelation 19:20.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

81. Those who reject the work of the beast will reign with God for 1000 years — Revelation 20:4.

The Bible exhibits more than 80 identifying marks of the beast power of Revelation 13. No other symbol is so specifically and irrefutably identified in Scripture. A minority of these identifying features are future, but the great majority are historical facts and thus can be documented. One power, and one only, fulfills all the criteria which have been historically completed — the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestant reformers were absolutely correct in their identification of the beast of Revelation 13 as the antichrist power and their identification of that power as the Papacy.

Martin Luther declared,

We are of the conviction that the Papacy is the seat of the real antichrist (quoted in LeRoy Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol.2, p. 256).

John Calvin declared,

I deny him to be the vicar of Christ .... He is antichrist — I deny him to be head of the church (John Calvin Tracts, Vol. 1, pp. 219,220).

John Knox stated,

That tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church, the very antichrist and son of perdition of whom Paul speaks (The Zurich Letter, p.199).

John Wesley concluded that

Roman Papacy he [the antichrist] is, in an emphatical sense, the man of sin (John Wesley, Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, p.110).

These, and other reformers, did not come to this conclusion because of a desire to vilify the Roman Catholic Church. They were not simply taking a cheap shot at that church. Their writings reveal that they had carefully studied the evidence of Scripture and were forced by weight of that evidence to conclude that only the Roman Catholic Church fitted the criteria. Protestants of the present day who still recognize this fact are frequently accused of paranoia, papalphobia, by fellow Protestants who have taken no pains to study Scripture in relation to the matter and are caught up in the evil spirit of ecumenism.

The majority of Protestants who intelligently identify the beast of Revelation 13 as the Papacy have a deep love for the souls of their Roman Catholic friends. They recognize that many Roman Catholics are sincere in their convictions, but deceived. Recognizing Christ’s plaintive plea,

Come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (Revelation 18:4, emphasis added),

we must clearly make the identification. It is painful to so identify such a popular religion, but no true Christian can refrain from presenting such an urgent, loving call, from God. It is no display of love for Roman Catholics to conceal that which Scripture reveals.

The Roman Catholic Church is the result of the paganization of Christianity which progressed rapidly from the fourth century. The focal point of the entry of paganism into the Christian Church was the "conversion" of the Roman Emperor Constantine in 321 A.D. Hordes of European pagans entered the fold, encouraged by the conversion of their emperor. But in most cases there was no heart conversion, no new birth experience. They desired to continue to practice their pagan worship within Christianity. Thus they introduced their day of worship, Sunday, sanitizing it as a memorial of Christ’s resurrection. They introduced their idol worship, covering its pagan nature by providing Christian names for the idols, such as Mary, the apostles and Christ Himself. They introduced the pagan practice of sprinkling water on the head of the newborn in order to remove evil from them and designated this pagan practice, Christian baptism. Also, the relating of one’s sins to the priests entered the Christian faith. The Bible concept of Christ as our only Mediator was lost.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5).

The idea that the soul is immortal, borrowed from paganism, and defying the plain word of Scripture, was introduced. God alone has immortality.

Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen (1 Timothy 6: 15,16),

This led to the belief that virtuous men and women go to heaven when they die and the evil go to ever-burning torment. Christ plainly taught that we are united with Him, if faithful, not at death, but when He comes again.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also (John 14:1-3).

He also states clearly that the punishment of the wicked is eternal destruction.

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

The Bible knows nothing of the pagan concept of purgatory. Neither does the Bible provide salvation on the basis of monetary gifts.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10).

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Nor does Scripture give the right to any human to destroy God’s law. Any Roman Catholic can examine the Ten Commandments in a Catholic version of Scripture, such as the Douay or the Jerusalem Bibles, and read the true Ten Commandments. But in their catechisms they are taught to entirely discard the second commandment, to eliminate most of the fourth commandment and to divide the tenth commandment in two in order to preserve the number of ten commandments. The reason that the pope’s Apostolic Letter, Dies Domini, repeatedly refers to the Sabbath commandment as the third commandment rather than the fourth is because Catholicism has cast out the second commandment which states

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord the God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments (Exodus 20:4-6).

There is sound evidence to charge the Roman Catholic Church with the introduction of idolatry into the faith. Some claim that their veneration of idols is not evidence of idol worship. If this claim is valid, why then did the Roman Catholic Church think it necessary to expunge the second commandment from the Decalogue?

Further, the Roman Catholic Church has altered the Sabbath commandment in their catechisms with the words, "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy." The full fourth commandment is,

Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it (Exodus 20: 8-11).

Here again is compelling evidence that the Roman Catholic Church full well knows that Sunday worship does not extend back to apostolic times, otherwise it would have been the apostles who would have initiated such an alteration. The apostles spoke often of keeping the commandments, but made no effort to alter them. A few examples include the words of Paul.

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God (1 Corinthians 7:19),

John stated,

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keep not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3,4).

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us (1 John 3:24).

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous (1 John 5:2,3)

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it ( 2 John 6).

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17)

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12).

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city (Revelation 22:14).

Combining the concepts of the immortality of the soul, christening to remove original sin and eternal punishment in hell, the early Roman Catholic Church taught that all innocent but unbaptized children who died were doomed to eternal torment. Later, the concept was softened by consigning such unfortunate children to a mythical entity called limbo, simply because of the neglect of their parents to have their heads sprinkled with water. It is little wonder that the French fled from such an arbitrary and vengeful "god" and rather embraced the prostituted goddess of mercy at the time of the French Revolution.

It must not be forgotten that one of the identifying features of the little horn of Daniel 7 is that this power would "think to change times and laws" (Daniel 7:15). Certainly the Papacy has emphatically fulfilled that criterion without the least question, as it has eliminated the second commandment from God’s sacred law removed much of the fourth commandment which deals with God, holy times, and divided the tenth commandment.

We will see that in other ways the Papacy, and the Papacy alone, fulfills the 81 criteria of the beast power of Revelation 13.

Source: http://www.sundaylaw.net/opening/87marks.htm

Check out: http://www.sundaylaw.net/books/other/standish/antichrist/aihtoc.htm

Contains much more biblical and historical proof that the above is true.

[John317]

Ellen White made the antichrist out to be a single man.

She said that Satan would come and impersonate Jesus Christ in the last days.

Why do historicists ignore this vision? I think it's right on and it identifies the little horn/king of the north/beast from the earth perfectly.

I don't believe historicists do ignore Ellen White's vision.

Her vision doesn't identify the little horn/king of north/beast-from-the-earth as Satan himself.

Satan is Antichrist who works through the various powers of the earth, including the man of sin, the papacy, and the earth-beast, the United States of America.

Ellen White teaches this plainly in the book, Great Controversy, pp. 440-443.

This does not at all contradict the visions she had of Satan impersonating Christ.

[John317]

That prophecy was for plan A IF Israel/Jews had gotten rid of sin as Dan. 9:24 states. Peroblem is, that prophecy was time sensitive and since we are on plan B, that prophecy will NEVER happen! Simple? UBETCHA!

Dr. Rich, I do agree with you that some prophecies will never be fulfilled literally but they will be spiritually fulfilled in the church.

But it was not a matter of the Jews getting rid of sin, or ceasing altogether to commit any sin at all. That is not the significance of Daniel 9: 24.

Originally Posted By: Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

It means that God was giving the Jews 490 years to bring an end to the sinful state of their society, and to construct a righteous society. In other words, God was giving them a probationary period during which they were to fulfill the plans of God as revealed through the Hebrew prophets.

Notice that to "finish the transgression [rebellion]" and to "make an end of sins," are both basically the same thing.

So are the next four conditions:

make reconciliation for iniquity

bring in everlasting righteousness

seal up the vision and prophecy

anoint the most Holy (the heavenly sanctuary)

[Musicman1228]

Lysimachus,

I believe the Woman of Rev. 12 represents the Woman that gives birth to the people of God, not the people themselves.

Note that this Woman gives birth to Jesus Christ, and the people or the church did not give birth to Jesus.

Also note in Rev. 12:17 that this same Woman gives birth to the remnant, the rest of HER offspring, identified as 'those that keep the Commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This Woman then is the Holy Spirit.

Ref. Gen. 3:15, John 3:3,5 also.

[John317]

Lysimachus,

...This Woman then is the Holy Spirit.

Ref. Gen. 3:15, John 3:3,5 also.

I wonder if Lysimachus will agree with this on the basis of his own personal Bible study.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

...Does here deal with the fact that Nehemiah attests to the fact that the CITY Jerusalem lieth in waste& needing rebuilding (yet, still some 12 years after the preferred date of 457 BC) as fitting the requirements of Daniel 9:25? I ask, as you seem to subscribe to SDA orthodoxy...

>>Here's the text on which we must base the beginning of the "70 weeks":

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.<<

I’ve bolded the only relevant phrases, as this prophecy’s beginning terminus is of utmost importance.

Tell me how Nehemiah 1 and 2 cannot correlate with Daniel 8:25, which deals entirely with materially reconstructive matters; yet, you’ve managed to take the entirety of the first three decrees that dealt ONLY with the House of Gd/Temple – together with a few extraneous matters – and translate them as fulfilling

“to restore and to build Jerusalem” and “the street shall be built again, and the wall” of Daniel 9:25!

Daniel addressed the matter of the CITY – and not the matter of the House of Gd/Temple. Apples and oranges.

>>You are claiming that the correct date of the beginning of this period is 445 BC, the time when Nehemiah was allowed by King Artaxerxes to go to Jerusalem. See Nehemiah chapters 1 & 2.

But does this fuflill the specifications of the prophecy?<<

As much as we may ascertain from what was written, which is a whole lot more than anything proffered as deriving from the first three decrees.

>>First, notice that there is no "commandment" given in these chapters. We are told that Nehemiah was simply allowed personally to go to Jerusalem.<<

A simple glance, a growl, or a hiss from the king is a commandment. A shift and a sigh can be construed as such. Nehemiah 2:9 informs that he was given much more in the form of letters petitioned from the king, allowing him to rebuild the CITY.

>>Second, Nehemiah is concerned because "the wall of Jerusalem is also broken down, and its gates are burned with fire" (Neh. 1: 3). Nehemiah 7: 4 tells us that the houses hadn't yet been rebuilt. That is why Nehemiah tells the king that the city "lies waste" or "lies in ruins." (Neh 2: 3).<<

Indeed, with nar’ a mention of the House of Gd/Temple. Nehemiah was about rebuilding the CITY, which he specifically mentioned in Nehemiah 2:5, folowing:

Neh 2:5 ...thou wouldest send me to unto Judah , unto the city of my fathers’ sepulchres, that I may build it.

>>Third, notice that chapters 2 through 6 are all about the building of the walls of the city. They don't show that the city itself is not functioning as a city.<<

Daniel 9:25 does not make extraniety the litmus...

>>In fact, chapter 6: 5 tells us that the city had "nobles" and "rulers." Chapter 7 lists many tens of thousands of people, including "priets, the Levites, the gatekeeprs. the singers," and "all Israel." Ezra 7 to 8 shows that the city already had a functioning government with judges and the power to raise taxes.<<

...nor ‘function’, nor ‘functionaries’. Many thousands of Jews returned to the city under Darius’ decree. According to the arguments presented here and elsewhere – the reckoning of Daniel may as well begin from the time of Cyrus or of Darius... Rather, it seems, there is an arbitrary reverse engineering of numbers involved in a prophecy in a book which was sealed until recently.

I’m not saying that we are not given to understand anything at all from this book. What I am saying is – the fact that it was sealed by Gd – ought to give the expositor pause – rather than to hurry him or her as to establish ‘peculiarity’ in beliefs.

>>Therefore the date 445 BC does not fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 9: 25, because Nehemiah chaptes 1 to 6 merely tell us that Nehemiah got permission of the king to return in order to help complete what was commanded and begun in 457 BC,<<

A coupla things: Nehemiah also carried with him letters authorized by the king. That translates to commandment no matter how it is defined. And show me the text where a king either commanded or gave permission to build the CITY in 457 BC.

(matter of fact, extemporizing..., I seem to recall that the Jews incurred trouble previously – because of unauthorized building of other than the House of Gd/Temple)

>>...as narrated in Ezra 7. This command was to "build and restore" the city. It was clearly done in 457 BC, when the government of the city was restored as an independent entity at the command of King Artexerxes. See Ezra 7: 12-26 for a copy of the command to restore & build the city.<<

I have read Ezra 7 in my KJV repeatedly – and cannot find one mention of “building and restoring the city”. [/paraphrased]

Don’t tell me that it is found in one of those ‘copyrighted’ Bibles – I’d dismiss it.

>>It was clearly done in 457 BC, when the government of the city was restored as an independent entity at the command of King Artexerxes.<<

This fact is completely extraneous to Daniel 9:25 – and in no wise bears upon an understanding of the fulfillment of the 70-weeks prophecy. Their govt could as well have been set up at an oasis beneath palms... A govt or its function is not the issue of Daniel 9:25.

[jasd]

>>That prophecy was for plan A IF Israel/Jews had gotten rid of sin as Dan. 9:24 states. Peroblem is, that prophecy was time sensitive and since we are on plan B, that prophecy will NEVER happen! Simple? UBETCHA!<<

Sorry, I missed the conditional ‘if-and-but this or that’ in Daniel 9 – most specifically, I missed it in Daniel 9:24. As that is so, I am forced to surmise that

the prophecy obtained then, and obtains especially now.

[jasd]

>>So I see you are a dispensationalist as well. Wow. It is like a plague in this forum, lol.<<

Indeed. I read Writ as the HS inspired Holy men of Gd to write. I’m not invested in substantiating or otherwise apologizing for the beliefs of any particular .Org,

which has erred in rendering the saints of Gd – unto Caesar.

Gd has upon occasions too numerous to mention – stated flat-out that it is all about how Israel fits into Gd’s plans (beginning to end of the Good Book) – and tandem that – mankind. Of course, no need to mention that Jesus Christ is the apex of it all.

It seems that it is only the desire to prove peculiar that misleads certain of the Protesting .orgs to bruit a replacement theology.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

“There is a sound rule of prophetic interpretation...” and “For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little” (Is 28:10) to the texts of Revelation 12 –

I am forced to conclude that that woman represents none other than national Israel. For, to whom else was given the signifiers of the sun, the moon, and the stars – but, according to the Patriarch Jacob/Israel,

>>The Woman does not respresent Israel, or God's Church. It represents "God's people". All those who will be saved. [ed.jasd]<<

Dichotomy? I mean, consider the following:

>>The woman in Revelation 12:1-5 represents Old Testament Israel.

The woman in Revelation 12:6, 13-17 represents the New Testament Church. [ed.jasd]<<

>>This has always been the official position of the Adventist Church, and it is right on target.<<

You’re not saying that ‘dichotomy’ is the position of the “Adventist Church”, are you?

>>It appears that you are truly not familiar with Adventist theology, or you would have recognized that the woman represents both at different time periods.<<

No, I suppose not. I’d never imagined that “Adventist theology” had misconstrued ‘the woman’ of Revelation to that degree...

>>Just like Israel was the "Church in the wilderness", so the Woman represents Israel when she gives birth to the man-child, and then she and her remnant represent the Church after the man-child is born.<<

So, you’re suggesting what?—that the Woman’s manchild in Revelation 12 represents Jesus Christ? And the “Church in the wilderness” is gone into the pages of history?—to have been supplanted?

>>I will be praying for you jasb,<<

It is jasd. Thank-you, I appreciate any prayer offered on my behalf.

>>...because your theology is deadly. A sinful theology.<<

Strange..., that a theology that so closely correlates to Writ is thought deadly and sinful. I suppose that’s why I would not align with an organization that incorporates and renders Gd’s people an entity of the State.

>>Why? Because you will not see the importance of God's Church having the Testimony of Jesus Christ,<<

I truly do not see how you arrived at such a thought – just by reading my posts.

>>...nor the need of keeping God's Ten Commandments.<<

I suppose you refer to my Biblical position that adheres to Writ – when it informs that Gd removed the reckonings of the OT calendar for the profanation before the heathen of Gd’s Sabbaths by the COI – making it impossible for anyone to reconstruct.

Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Lam 2:6 ...the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion,

Two prophets wrote the above – one prophet to Israel and the other to Judah. On the face of it – Israel has lost the reckonings for the OT calendar – and the Jews, by admission, declare their calendar unBiblical; yet, Sabbatarians follow the Jewish calendar religiously...

>>Neither will you see that the Beast power and Harlot Woman is realized in the Papal System.<<

So many Beasts. What Beast power? Harlot Woman?—Gd said that of Aholah and also of Aholibah – harlot women. Papal System?—I agree that they’ve not lived-up to the standards of what one might consider Xtianity, but Aholibah buried her children alive in the foundations of their houses, burned them alive, and sacrificed them to demons; yet, Gd did not divorce her.

But along comes Lysimachus with condemnation sufficient to replace Gd’s prerogatives in judgement of the Papal System.

>>Those who do not see this, WILL be deceived. Wake up before it's too late. And quit deceiving yourselves.<<

Frankly, I suspect that Islam will destroy Rome and the seat of the Papal System, shortly.

Would you like prayers for pride and obstinacy?

(I linked to “here”. That’s good work – not that I agree with everything, but good work)

[John317]

...Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.<<

Ive bolded the only relevant phrases, as this prophecys beginning terminus is of utmost importance.

Tell me how Nehemiah 1 and 2 cannot correlate with Daniel 8:25, which deals entirely with materially reconstructive matters; yet, you've managed to take the entirety of the first three decrees that dealt ONLY with the House of Gd/Temple together with a few extraneous matters and translate them as fulfilling

to restore and to build Jerusalem and the street shall be built again, and the wall of Daniel 9:25!

Daniel addressed the matter of the CITY and not the matter of the House of Gd/Temple. Apples and oranges.

According to Ezra 1: 2-4, the decree that Cyrus the Great issued had to do with the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem. King Darius's decree, which followed, reinforced Cyrus's decree in response to the hostilities that the Judeans encountered during the work of restoration of the temple (Ezra 6: 3-12). A third decree, one made by King Artaxerxes, authorized Ezra to install both city and regional officers and made the city of Jerusalem the administrative center for the whole province (Ezra 7: 11-26).

Daniel 9: 25 speaks of "streets... and the wall" (NKJV). The first word, rehob, means "an open place" or "a plaza." This place was usually located inside the city gate, where court cases were decided. In a more general way, the word may be used of "city streets," referring to the places "that are the centers of lively economic and social activities in the city. To some extent, these 'streets' are the ancient Near Eastern equivalents of shopping malls in modern American culture." (See Daniel, C. L. Seow, 2003), page 149.

In the light of its Akkadian cognates, the second noun, harus, means "town moat." It describes the "trench cut into the rock onthe exterior walls of the city in order to make the wall a more difficult obstacle for those who would attempt to attack from the outside." (See A Handbook on the Book of Daniel, Peter-Contesse, Rene, and John Ellington, 1993), page 255.

NOTE: the margin of the NKJV has "open square" for its translation of rehob; and "moat" for its translation of harus.

If the two words were meant to complement each other (merism), then the meaning intended here is that the city will be completely restored-- both the internal layout of the city and its external defenses. "Jerusalem would be built again 'inside and out.'" (See Daniel: A Commentary, Redditt, Paul L., 1999), page 162.

An alternative proposal is that the word rehob means "city square" while harus describes the city's public place where decisions were made. In that case, the latter term should be rendered "decision-making" (cf. "valley of decision" in Joel 3: 14). (See The Chronology of Daniel 9: 24-27, Brempong Owusu-Antwi, 1995), page 379.

[John317]

Frankly, I suspect that Islam will destroy Rome and the seat of the Papal System, shortly.

Never happen. The seat of the papal system will be destroyed all right but not by a human hand but by God's. That's according to Bible prophecy. The Bible predicts that the Papacy will continue to get stronger until it is utterly destroyed in seven last plagues and at the second coming of Christ. The Bible also predicts that the USA will help the Papal system become stronger. SDAs (specifically Ellen G. White) said this clear back in the 1800s on the basis of Bible prophecy, and now we see it happening. It began happening in the 1980s. It will keep happening.

[Truth Files]

"The woman in Revelation 12:6, 13-17 represents the New Testament Church"

>Revelation 12 is all about Israel, the Lord, and Satan

>There is no "church" in this passage of scripture .... the focus is upon national Israel ..... Zechariah 14:4-5 identifies Israel, not today's church ..... His church does not reside in Israel today and will not during the Lord's coming hour of trial and judgment upon the earth

>The church will not flee into the Jordanian wilderness to escape the beast and his followers

>The Lord's pre-tribulation church will be immortal and in heaven during His hour of trial upon the earth [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9] .... these will return to the earth with Him to contend at Armageddon [Revelation 19:11-21] .... and then will rule with Him over the earth during His millennial kingdom] Revelation 20:4 [those on thrones .... the symbol of His government]

>Revelation 12:6 and 12:13 do not describe the Lord's church, but the believing remnant part of Israel who will flee for the Lord's protection when Satan's beast in the little horn invades [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-24]

>And neither are those identified in 12:17 the "church" .... these are part of the believing remnant of Israel who will be living in the nations at the time .... when the beast cannot reach those who will flee Israel, he will then hunt those who reside in the nations [Luke 21:21]

>The other "woman" described in Revelation is the "great city part " of the nations [MBG] [Revelation 17 and 18]

>The same beast and his 10 other kings of the Middle East will hate this supressive economic and commercial trading giant of the west and destroy it in one day .... and the "great city" will never rise again [Revelation 17:16-18; 18:1-21]

>This destruction will be the first of the Lord's judgments upon the earth at the beginning of His coming hour of trial .... just after the sealing of the 144,000 [this must occur before the tribulation begins] of the children of Israel [Revelation 7:1-3; 8;6-12; 14:8; 17:16-18; 18;1-21]

>Then the Lord will reduce all of the other cities of the nations to rubble with the greatest worldwide earthquake known to humans during at the end of His hour of trial during the battle of Armageddon [Ezekiel 38:18-20; Revelation 16:18-20]

.... But just before this He will revisit the land mass where the "great city" stood and break it into 3rds [Revelation 16:19]

>Ancient Rome is not a part of this future event and is in the dust bin of history .... not the "great city" of the time of the end .... Rome's rule [both political and Papal] lies in the breach of the prophetic visions between the Lord's first and second advent [end of 69 week .... beginning of 70th]

.... Rome's rule is not recorded in the visions of the Bible prophets, and neither are the subsequent rules of the Arabian, Mongol, Parthian, Ottoman, British

>The Middle East is a divided block of Islamic states today and it these who will confederate with Satan's beast in the little horn at the end of this present age [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; Daniel 7:7-25; Revelation 13:1-4; 17:8-14]

[Lysimachus]

"The woman in Revelation 12:6, 13-17 represents the New Testament Church"

>Revelation 12 is all about Israel, the Lord, and Satan

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Lysimachus,

...This Woman then is the Holy Spirit.

Ref. Gen. 3:15, John 3:3,5 also.

I wonder if Lysimachus will agree with this on the basis of his own personal Bible study.

John,

I hope EVERYONE'S belief is based on their own personal Bible study, and not taking the word of anyone as truth that is not Jesus Christ, without verification. You and me included. Right?

[ClubV12]

That sounds good MM and there is some truth there, but it may be a bit misleading. We do need the counsel of the brethren and comparing scripture and interpretation with the brethren. I find it is very rare for one man to come to "truth" on any given subject or interpretation.

I've mentioned before and will again, the Eunech in the desert. Phillip went to him to counsel and consulate on understanding what he was reading. There was no single individual involved in establishing the early truths prior to the SDA church is another example.

We do need to understand for ourselves these issues, but "going it alone" is a dangerous path and not in accordance, as I see it, the way God would have us study. We build our understanding on the shoulders of those who have come before us as truth is progressive, but always harmonius.

We have several examples on this forum of men who boldly proclaim they and they alone have come to the truth. Essentially rejecting any one's counsel, just them and the word. I don't buy it, I think that is a delusion and the result is confusion.

[jasd]

There are times I think that some post those fantabulously lengthy posts - to discourage rebuttal - that they may stand

uncontested.

I mean, who's got the time!? To address all of those errors (yes, those volumes of errors) - requires time no one has.

Oy Vay!

[Lysimachus]

There are times I think that some post those fantabulously lengthy posts - to discourage rebuttal - that they may stand

uncontested.

I mean, who's got the time!? To address all of those errors (yes, those volumes of errors) - requires time no one has.

Oy Vay!

It helps when you can type 60-100 words per minute.

[jasd]

>>It helps when you can type 60-100 words per minute.<<

Well, that's it then. I can't even think more than 10 words a minute - with at least half being the chaff of advanced senility - that, with the constant mutter of

"Woe is me!"

Though, I'm quite deft with a corkscrew...

That's reason for a happy face