A Revived Roman Empire?

[John317]

This thread points out the need for the ONE person Jesus prophesied about in Matt. 17:11 and 24:45. There is only ONE truth and that truth is absolute.

Rev. 1:1 and Dan. 12:10 shows that only the 144,000 living bondservants will understand end time prophecy correctly. Why? Because it has nothing to do with people who are now dead.

I agree that there is only ONE truth and that Truth is absolute. That Truth is Christ and the written word of God.

However, we won't know for sure who is right about these prophecies until just before Christ returns. We will know by the time the 7 Last Plagues begin to fall.

You claim that only the 144,000 bondservants who are sealed with the Seal of God will understand end-time prophecies correctly. Well, I agree that they will no doubt understand a lot more than any of us understand at this point.

But you say that those end-time prophecies don't have to do with people who are now dead.

Are you claiming that if a person died yesterday, he couldn't have understood any of the end-time prophecies? If you or I were to die tomorrow, would it mean these prophecies had nothing to do with us?

I believe the end-time prophecies were unsealed a long time ago-- about 1798-- and that they have to do with everyone living from the time of the end (1798) to the time when Christ returns. God wants everyone to study and understand the prophecies. There is truly no partiality with God (Romans 2: 11).

[John317]

... Jesus gave John the prophecy in Revelation, AND THAT WAS IT! There is no Scriptural evidence that Jesus was going to give or did give prophecy to anyone after that.

Some verses in Revelation prove you wrong:

1) Rev. 11:3-- And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

NOTE: Obviously the two witnesses in the above verse are prophets.

2) REv. 12:17--- And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

3) Rev. 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Who are the brethren who have the testimony of Jesus?

4) Rev. 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

The Bible's answer is that the brethren who have the testimony of Jesus are the prophets. Indeed, Rev. 19:10 defines the testimony of Jesus as "the Spirit of prophecy."

What is "the Spirit of prophecy"? It is the Holy Spirit, who inspires the prophets.

[Truth Files]

John317 asks about the 2300 evenings and mornings:

"Please show how this is true based on clear Bible evidence.

>An evening and a morning is a 24 hour [sacrificial] day .... 2300 evenings and mornings are 1150 days [not years] [Daniel 8:14; 8:26]

Do you believe the 1150 days were fufilled in the past?"

>No .... this time lapse is part of the second 1260 days of the future 70th week .... the first 110 days will involve the setting up of the abomination of desolation on the temple mount and the balance will finish the 70th week to include the cleansing of the same [Daniel 12:11; Matthew 24:15-16]

The Lord Himself will come and route the little horn's followers who will be occupying Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount [Jeremiah 30:8; Daniel 9:26-27 [the people of the prince that shall come - the desolators]; 11:45; Joel 2:20; Revelation 11:2; 13:1-5] and destroy them in the next 30 days culminating at the battle of Armageddon [isaiah 63:1-4; Ezekiel 39; Daniel 12:11; Joel 3:9-17; Micah 5:5-6; Zechariah 14:3; Revelation 16:1-16; 19:11-21]

>The little horn of Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince]; 11:36-45; 12:7 is the king of the north possessed by Satan's beast of Revelation [Revelation 9:1; 9:11; 11:7; 17:8-14]

Daniel's visions give an accurate account of the career of Antiochus IV [Daniel 11:21-35] .... the next king of the north, the "Assyrian" [Micah 5:5-6] is the one that some call the "anti-christ" .... Satan's beast in the little horn [Daniel 11:36-45; 12:7]

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

It is impossible to find – in either Holy Writ or in historical fact – an order or commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until such time as it was given unto Nehemiah to ‘build’ Jerusalem, the decree of Ezra 6 notwithstanding – which addressed only the rebuilding and/or the refurbishment of the Temple.

Therefore, 457 BC is a premature and wrested reckoning – or outright falsity.

>>At the time of the decree of 457 BC the Temple had already been completed. We see in the decree (Ezra 7:12-26) that money for furnishings and decorations were to be supplied, a Priesthood re-established, and most importantly magistrates and judges were to be appointed. This latter indicates that the decree also granted national authority to Israel to rule themselves.<<

I believe that I addressed that in my above quote: “...the decree of Ezra 6 (the building of the Temple) notwithstanding – which addressed only the rebuilding and/or the refurbishment of the Temple (Ezra 7).

Per your statement following:

>>...a Priesthood re-established, and most importantly magistrates and judges were to be appointed. This latter indicates that the decree also granted national authority to Israel to rule themselves.<<

This does not, in the least – address the requirements of prophetic fulfillment as delineated in Daniel 9:25 - identifying the beginning terminus as “the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem...” It cannot be ignored by those seeking to interpret Daniel – that the three ‘commandments’ (those of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes) used by expositors – addressed only the House of Gd/Temple.

It was the beginning of the restoration of the CITY itself that set the prophetic clock ticking...

>>Ezra finishes with praise to God for having Artaxerxes do all these things:<<

Indeed, yet we find that some 12 years later Nehemiah is bemoaning that the “place (the City Jersualem) of my fathers’ sepulchres [lieth] waste...” (Neh 2:3) Whereupon, Nehemiah, in response to the king’s “For what dost thou make request?” answered: “...thou wouldest send me to unto Judah , unto the city of my fathers’ sepulchres, that I may build it."

>>Blessed be the LORD, the God of our fathers, who put such a thing as this into the heart of the king, to beautify the house of the LORD that is in Jerusalem, Ezra 7:27.

This does not speak of the building of the Temple but of 'beautifying' it.<<

Answered above...

>>457 BC IS the correct starting date for the 70 weeks prophecy in Dan. 24.<<

There is absolutely no mention of restoring the CITY, but deals rather – with only the refurbishment of the Temple – and certain extraneous matters...

>>It is in the middle of the final week of this time period (the Wednesday year of 30 AD) that Jesus was crucified at Passover, just as the prophecy in Daniel foretold.<<

That is back-engineering numbers without regard for the integrity of text.

>>The 490 years ended in 33 AD<<

Doesn’t the .Org teach that the 490 years ended with the stoning of Steven?

>>...without Israel ever coming back to God,<<

Israel was in its dispersion. Don’t you mean Judah/Jews?—such as it was....

>>...and therefore God took the Kingdom away from them to much later give it to another people who would bear the fruit of the Kingdom (Matt. 21:43).<<

Indeed, and who were those people?

>>When God removed Israel as His Kingdom<<

I think you intend here – the Southern Kingdom, yes?—as Israel proper was in the midst of its seven-times curse as indicated in Leviticus 26 – which ended in the latter half of this past 18th century...

Ezekiel prophesied that the Southern Kingdom/Judah was to be joined to Ephraim – together forming one stick.

>>He also sealed up any prophecies of the end time for Israel that had not yet been fulfilled,<<

Ahhh, but almost the entirety of Writ is fulfilled in Ephraim/Israel together with the sceptre/Throne and law of Judah.

>>...because now that Israel was no longer His Kingdom they would NEVER be fulfilled, which is why they were sealed.<<

Gd is still with the COI – meeting the unconditional promises given to the sons and daughters of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

[jasd]

Dan 9:7 ...and unto all Israel, [that are] near, and [that are] far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

Hmm, all Israel? Not just Judah [southern Kingdom]? Seems tah be so, yes? no?

Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

ALL Israel, again? “therefore” ... “because we”? Whas wid dat? ALL Israel? not just Judah [southern Kingdom]?

Dan 9:20 And whiles I [was] speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

“my people Israel”?

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

“upon thy people”? That’s ALL Israel, yes?

Okay, granted, ...the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem were to be accomplished in the desolations of Jerusalem – in the particular; that said, they are only parcel that of the larger subject, which prefaced and elicited the response of “the man Gabriel”, that subject being:

ALL Israel.

The subject of Daniel’s prayer was Israel, ALL Israel – with Judah [southern Kingdom] being but parcel – that.

Should the above obtain..., I ask, “Where in present dogma is ALL Israel in view? Where, between the years 457 BC and AD 34 was ALL Israel, near and far off, in view?”

I purport that, of necessity, a Gap exists – until such time as both the Northern Kingdom and the desolated Southern Kingdom, are together in view

and share fulfillment of the Seventy-week prophecy.

[Truth Files]

"I purport that, of necessity, a Gap exists – until such time as both the Northern Kingdom and the desolated Southern Kingdom, are together in view and share fulfillment of the Seventy-week prophecy."

>No doubt .... all of the prophetic scriptures reveal this .... all of them .... event the Lord's discourse in Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21 .... He is projecting long and the focus is upon a remnant part of national Israel .... the generation that will experience all of what He describes

>He speaks as a Prophet extending the same setting revealed by His prophets before

And He does it again:

Revelation

1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen [John's experience with the Lord at His first advent], and the things which are [the period of the gathering of His church still in process today], and the things which shall be hereafter;[the 70th week decreed for Israel .... and beyond]

[John317]

>An evening and a morning is a 24 hour [sacrificial] day .... 2300 evenings and mornings are 1150 days [not years] [Daniel 8:14; 8:26]

I have heard of this before, of course, but what Scriptural basis is there for associating the "evening-mornings" with the sacrifices? The only other place in the Bible where it says "evening and morning" is in the chapters dealing with the creation, where it refers to 24 hour days. Gen. 1: 5ff.

Isn't it true that the reason some people halve the 2300 is that they are attempting to harmonize it with the "time, times, and half a time" of Daniel 7: 25, a period which is 1260 days long?

The Hebrew is definitely "2300 evenings and mornings," so why not leave it at that? There is no internal or contextual reason for saying it is actually only 1150 days.

Also, would you agree that the context of Daniel 8: 14 is divine judgment?

[Lysimachus]

Re the terminus that begins the 70-times prophecy – as set forth in

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Note, especially – the condition that triggers the prophecy:

from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem

It is impossible to find – in either Holy Writ or in historical fact – an order or commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until such time as it was given unto Nehemiah to ‘build’ Jerusalem, the decree of Ezra 6 notwithstanding – which addressed only the rebuilding and/or the refurbishment of the Temple.

Therefore, 457 BC is a premature and wrested reckoning – or outright falsity.

It was not until 445 BC that the ‘commandment’ to restore the city proper was issued; hence, the prophecy begins in 445 BC (Persia had just lost a major naval engagement with Greece and was forced to abandon their ports in the Mediterranean – necessitating the refurbishment of Jerusalem to serve as a forward post for the Empire) – ending with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ – and leaving a final week which will find its fulfillment when both the Northern and the Southern Kingdoms will be in view – together, per the prayer of Daniel.

One stick – Judah and Ephraim.

It is impossible to find any portion of Writ to sustain or validate a forwarding of 457 BC as reflecting prophecy – never mind the fact that the 457 BC dogma was first asserted far and away before the ‘end of time’ (Dan 12:4) –

“many shall run to and fro, and knowledge will be increased” – when thence the book of Daniel would be unsealed for exposition.

It's time that you read my posts beginning here jasd.

[Lysimachus]

And by the Way the 2300 evenings and mornings are 1150 24 hour days ..... not 2300 years [Daniel 8:14; 8:26]

Futurists, like Preterists apply the time period of 2300 evenings and mornings in Daniel 8:14 to literal days, or “1150 evening and morning sacrifices” (which ever feels more convenient—as long as it undermines Historicism). A pity to think that both Preterists and Futurists alike adopt this detrimental interpretation of Daniel 8 which originated from the pagan philosopher, Porphyry of Tyre (A.D. 234—c. .305), whose foremost aim was to terminate the advancement of Christianity. In order to try and prove that Daniel was not a prophet, it was Porphyry, according to Jerome and Bishop Thomas Newman, who originated the view that Antiochus was the Little Horn of Daniel 8. Through his pagan attack, He proposed that Daniel was merely a historian, and that he wrote the book of Daniel after the events of Antiochus. Both Futurists and Preterists also deny that the 2300 day period covers more than just the desecrating power of the Little Horn. A close analysis of the Hebrew in Daniel 8 reveals that the 2300 day period encompasses not just the desecrating power of the Little Horn, but also the Ram (Persia), the Goat (Greece), the 4 notable horns (four divisions of Alexander’s empire), AND the Little Horn! With this in mind, it matters not how one wishes to try and make Antiochus fit the Little Horn. The 2300 day period [known as the “mareh”] encompasses the TOTALITY of the vision [chazon] in Daniel 8. This automatically forces the 2300 days to be years, and these 2300 years end in the year 1844.

Also keep in mind that the 70 Jewish scribes who translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek, making the Septuagint, unanimously qualified the “evening-mornings” by using the Greek word “days”—--the term “evening-mornings” was used by Daniel because he was using artistic “sanctuary language” concerning the lamps that burned “always”, or “daily” in the sanctuary (See for example: Exodus 27:20, 21; Leviticus 24:2,3). The Hebrew word for “evening” is EREB, and for “morning”, BOQER. In other words “ereb-boqer”. Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31, all testify that an “evening” (ereb) and a “morning” (boqer) = a day. Dispensationalists have tried to cut this argument down by saying that “evening-morning” represents “evening and morning sacrifices or burnt offerings”, and therefore, since there was a sacrifice or burnt offering in the evening and in the morning, that means we must cut the 2300 in half to 1150 days. Then they try to fit 1150 days into Antiochus IV Epiphanies’ desecration of the Jewish temple. The problem is, according to Maccabees, Antiochus desecrated the temple for exactly 3 years to the day, or 1095 days. Therefore, Antiochus (along with a HOST of other reasons) does not fulfill this prophecy. It’s 55 days off. And finally, ALL temple sacrifices and burnt offerings were NEVER offered from “evening and morning”, but rather “MORNING AND EVENING” (see 1 Chron 16:40; 2 Chron 2:4; 13:11; 31:3; 2 Kings 16:15; and Ezra 3:3) In that order! The fact that Daniel used “evenings and mornings” in Daniel 8:14 is significant, and lends credence to the fact that Daniel meant full days, as a day is from evening to morning, not morning to evening according to Genesis 1. And since 2300 literal days = 6.4 years, and Antiochus only desecrated the temple for 3 years, we have no choice but to apply the 2300 evening-mornings to years, and since the “70 weeks” of Daniel 9:24 are “cut off” from the 2300 years of 8:14, that means the 2300 years end in 1844 if we begin in 457 B.C. I've worked with the math hundreds of times, and it is VERY precise! Not to mention that in Daniel 8, the context demands that the 2300 year period stretch to the “time of the end” [8:17,19]

[John317]

Great information. Hope people read it.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Truth Files

And by the Way the 2300 evenings and mornings are 1150 24 hour days ..... not 2300 years [Daniel 8:14; 8:26]

Futurists, like Preterists apply the time period of 2300 evenings and mornings in Daniel 8:14 to literal days, or “1150 evening and morning sacrifices” (which ever feels more convenient—as long as it undermines Historicism). A pity to think that both Preterists and Futurists alike adopt this detrimental interpretation of Daniel 8 which originated from the pagan philosopher, Porphyry of Tyre (A.D. 234—c. .305), whose foremost aim was to terminate the advancement of Christianity. In order to try and prove that Daniel was not a prophet, it was Porphyry, according to Jerome and Bishop Thomas Newman, who originated the view that Antiochus was the Little Horn of Daniel 8. Through his pagan attack, He proposed that Daniel was merely a historian, and that he wrote the book of Daniel after the events of Antiochus. Both Futurists and Preterists also deny that the 2300 day period covers more than just the desecrating power of the Little Horn. A close analysis of the Hebrew in Daniel 8 reveals that the 2300 day period encompasses not just the desecrating power of the Little Horn, but also the Ram (Persia), the Goat (Greece), the 4 notable horns (four divisions of Alexander’s empire), AND the Little Horn! With this in mind, it matters not how one wishes to try and make Antiochus fit the Little Horn. The 2300 day period [known as the “mareh”] encompasses the TOTALITY of the vision [chazon] in Daniel 8. This automatically forces the 2300 days to be years, and these 2300 years end in the year 1844.

Also keep in mind that the 70 Jewish scribes who translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek, making the Septuagint, unanimously qualified the “evening-mornings” by using the Greek word “days”—--the term “evening-mornings” was used by Daniel because he was using artistic “sanctuary language” concerning the lamps that burned “always”, or “daily” in the sanctuary (See for example: Exodus 27:20, 21; Leviticus 24:2,3). The Hebrew word for “evening” is EREB, and for “morning”, BOQER. In other words “ereb-boqer”. Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31, all testify that an “evening” (ereb) and a “morning” (boqer) = a day. Dispensationalists have tried to cut this argument down by saying that “evening-morning” represents “evening and morning sacrifices or burnt offerings”, and therefore, since there was a sacrifice or burnt offering in the evening and in the morning, that means we must cut the 2300 in half to 1150 days. Then they try to fit 1150 days into Antiochus IV Epiphanies’ desecration of the Jewish temple. The problem is, according to Maccabees, Antiochus desecrated the temple for exactly 3 years to the day, or 1095 days. Therefore, Antiochus (along with a HOST of other reasons) does not fulfill this prophecy. It’s 55 days off. And finally, ALL temple sacrifices and burnt offerings were NEVER offered from “evening and morning”, but rather “MORNING AND EVENING” (see 1 Chron 16:40; 2 Chron 2:4; 13:11; 31:3; 2 Kings 16:15; and Ezra 3:3) In that order! The fact that Daniel used “evenings and mornings” in Daniel 8:14 is significant, and lends credence to the fact that Daniel meant full days, as a day is from evening to morning, not morning to evening according to Genesis 1. And since 2300 literal days = 6.4 years, and Antiochus only desecrated the temple for 3 years, we have no choice but to apply the 2300 evening-mornings to years, and since the “70 weeks” of Daniel 9:24 are “cut off” from the 2300 years of 8:14, that means the 2300 years end in 1844 if we begin in 457 B.C. I've worked with the math hundreds of times, and it is VERY precise! Not to mention that in Daniel 8, the context demands that the 2300 year period stretch to the “time of the end” [8:17,19]

Well done, Lysimachus. I couldn't have said it better myself. I mean that. The way you put this together in such a concise manner is something I could not do.

This has been my understanding (more or less) for 15 plus years, after much study and use of a calculator. I do not understand to pressure that causes people to want to make something so complex when it is relatively simple.

One point for you to think about: Is it possible that the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy is also part of a larger time period that could be calculated to find the beginning and ending point of the Restoration calendar (commonly termed the Jubilee calendar)? My belief from studying Lev. 25 indicates that the limit of forgiveness of God is 70 times (ex. 70 times 7). If this number were used in conjunction with the full jubilee cycle of 49 years that could give us the full time period for the functioning of the Restoration or day/year (or Jubilee) calendar. Then all we would have to do is calculate the beginning point, which would be the start of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, which would give us the ending point when restoration was 'supposed' to take place-and would have had Jesus not called for a delay.

Biblical historians have calculated the Exodus from Egypt as happening around 1450 BCE. If we calculate the full function of the Restoration calendar as being 70 X 49 year cycle we would get 3,430 day years. Then we can go backwards from a known Jubilee year, such as the end of the 490 (70 x7) prophecy that occurred in 33 CE and we can find the jubilee or restoration year that would be nearest to 1450 BCE. That would be 1437 BCE; this would be when God made Israel the Kingdom of the Heavens at Sinai. Then add 3,430 to that (counting no zero year at the turn) and we come to the year 1994 CE. This would be the end of the Restoration calendar, when the delay began, and when the day/year usage also ended. This would mean that any prophecy of the end that was not fulfilled before the end of the calendar would be fulfilled in literal time after the end of the calendar.

This could greatly simplify the understanding of some of the more ambiguous numbers in prophecy, such as but not limited to the 1335 day (Dan. 12;12), 1260 days, 1290 days, 3 1/2 years (literal), 3 1/2 days (two witnesses Rev. 11) 5 months of Satan's rule, etc.

Give it some thought and let me know how you think about it.

[Lysimachus]

Well done, Lysimachus. I couldn't have said it better myself. I mean that. The way you put this together in such a concise manner is something I could not do.

This has been my understanding (more or less) for 15 plus years, after much study and use of a calculator. I do not understand to pressure that causes people to want to make something so complex when it is relatively simple.

One point for you to think about: Is it possible that the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy is also part of a larger time period that could be calculated to find the beginning and ending point of the Restoration calendar (commonly termed the Jubilee calendar)? My belief from studying Lev. 25 indicates that the limit of forgiveness of God is 70 times (ex. 70 times 7). If this number were used in conjunction with the full jubilee cycle of 49 years that could give us the full time period for the functioning of the Restoration or day/year (or Jubilee) calendar. Then all we would have to do is calculate the beginning point, which would be the start of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, which would give us the ending point when restoration was 'supposed' to take place-and would have had Jesus not called for a delay.

Biblical historians have calculated the Exodus from Egypt as happening around 1450 BCE. If we calculate the full function of the Restoration calendar as being 70 X 49 year cycle we would get 3,430 day years. Then we can go backwards from a known Jubilee year, such as the end of the 490 (70 x7) prophecy that occurred in 33 CE and we can find the jubilee or restoration year that would be nearest to 1450 BCE. That would be 1437 BCE; this would be when God made Israel the Kingdom of the Heavens at Sinai. Then add 3,430 to that (counting no zero year at the turn) and we come to the year 1994 CE. This would be the end of the Restoration calendar, when the delay began, and when the day/year usage also ended. This would mean that any prophecy of the end that was not fulfilled before the end of the calendar would be fulfilled in literal time after the end of the calendar.

This could greatly simplify the understanding of some of the more ambiguous numbers in prophecy, such as but not limited to the 1335 day (Dan. 12;12), 1260 days, 1290 days, 3 1/2 years (literal), 3 1/2 days (two witnesses Rev. 11) 5 months of Satan's rule, etc.

Give it some thought and let me know how you think about it.

Thank you Musicman1228, I appreciate your kind words. The glory goes only to God as I have asked Him to help me in my studies. And there is always room for improvement.

Concerning your post above, I will do just as you suggested and give it some thought.

For now, I must retire and get some rest, then I can think clearer when reading your post. Be in touch soon! =]

Lysimachus

[miz3]

This has been my understanding (more or less) for 15 plus years, after much study and use of a calculator. I do not understand to pressure that causes people to want to make something so complex when it is relatively simple.

Too complex and contorted!

Based on false premise that year/day is valid. Year/day does not exist in the Bible as a PRINCIPLE!

It only exists in two very narrow local issues!

[Lysimachus]

Too complex and contorted!

Based on false premise that year/day is valid. Year/day does not exist in the Bible as a PRINCIPLE!

It only exists in two very narrow local issues!

By you rejecting the day-for-year principle, you are limiting God in His divine foreknowledge of prophetic history. Basically, when you reject the day-year principle, you are declaring that God can only deal with extremely short time spans in history. It makes God out to look like a very weak God.

The Year/Day Principle does exist in the Bible as a principle. Period. You may disagree, but it doesn't change the irrefutable facts that sustain this inspired principle of prophetic interpretation. Without it, you are bound to come to false conclusions on Bible prophecy. And when you come to false conclusions on Bible prophecy, you end up teaching "false prophecies". That makes you a false prophet.

And the False Prophet, which is a symbol of fallen Protestantism that preaches false prophecies, is going to burn up in the lake of fire.

[Lysimachus]

Sky,

There are many very significant scriptures like the following that simply do not agree with your idea

Replacement theology is not supported by the prophetic word .... the theme of a separate national ethnic Israel is carried throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation

....the Lord's church is a different matter entirely and should never be mixed with national Israel .... He is not finished with His nation .... He is an Israelite by His humanity and still the Messiah and King of Israel

His rejection by the nation is going to change during the coming 70th week decreed and many of the nation are going to turn to Him and believe

Jeremiah

31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

[John317]

Well done, Lysimachus. I couldn't have said it better myself. I mean that. The way you put this together in such a concise manner is something I could not do.

This has been my understanding (more or less) for 15 plus years, after much study and use of a calculator. I do not understand to pressure that causes people to want to make something so complex when it is relatively simple.

We agree here, MM. Lysimachus put up an excellent post.

[jasd]

>>It's time that you read my posts beginning here jasd.<<

Will do; however, ...in short order, as I’m s’posing that “here” will take concentration..., which is in rather rare supply with me. In the meantime,

does “here” deal with my above post which asserts that the entirety, together, of the COI needs to be in view at the fulfillment of the 70-weeks prophecy?—which nowhere between the dates 457 BC and AD 34 finds them in the ‘altogether’ – in view.

Does “here” deal with the fact that Nehemiah attests to the fact that the CITY Jerusalem “lieth in waste” – needing rebuilding (yet, still some 12 years after the preferred date of 457 BC)– as fitting the requirements of Daniel 9:25? I ask, as you seem to subscribe to SDA orthodoxy...

Thanks, for your suggestion and I’ll link shortly – and, subsequently, proffer my comments.

[cheddar]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Too complex and contorted!

Based on false premise that year/day is valid. Year/day does not exist in the Bible as a PRINCIPLE!

It only exists in two very narrow local issues!

By you rejecting the day-for-year principle, you are limiting God in His divine foreknowledge of prophetic history. Basically, when you reject the day-year principle, you are declaring that God can only deal with extremely short time spans in history. It makes God out to look like a very weak God.

The Year/Day Principle does exist in the Bible as a principle. Period. You may disagree, but it doesn't change the irrefutable facts that sustain this inspired principle of prophetic interpretation. Without it, you are bound to come to false conclusions on Bible prophecy. And when you come to false conclusions on Bible prophecy, you end up teaching "false prophecies". That makes you a false prophet.

And the False Prophet, which is a symbol of fallen Protestantism that preaches false prophecies, is going to burn up in the lake of fire.

Maybe the time periods in Dan. and Rev. which are relatively short fit into the last days and show us when major events are going to happen.

The people who live during that time are not going to care what happened in the Jewish age or middle ages. Their lives are going to be in constant danger and they’re going to want to know what Dan. and Rev. have to say to them – if they know that certain events will last 1260 days or 70 weeks or 1290 days that will strengthen their faith so they can hang on and not give in.

Historicists have to do a lot of bible juggling in order to support their views on the trumpets, the abomination of desolation and the 1290 day time period is one that could never be day for a year unless the king of the North has Adam’s genes and can live past 1000 years.

[Lysimachus]

Maybe the time periods in Dan. and Rev. which are relatively short fit into the last days and show us when major events are going to happen.

The people who live during that time are not going to care what happened in the Jewish age or middle ages. Their lives are going to be in constant danger and they’re going to want to know what Dan. and Rev. have to say to them – if they know that certain events will last 1260 days or 70 weeks or 1290 days that will strengthen their faith so they can hang on and not give in.

Historicists have to do a lot of bible juggling in order to support their views on the trumpets, the abomination of desolation and the 1290 day time period is one that could never be day for a year unless the king of the North has Adam’s genes and can live past 1000 years.

The amount of juggling that Historicists must do is miniscule in comparison to what Futurists have to do. One example might be that Futurists are forced to make Beasts single men, even though Daniel 7 states unequivocally that beasts represent kingdoms, not single men. Then you have the Beast of Revelation 13 growing 10 horns out of it, but exercising the same persecuting characteristics of the Little Horn of Daniel 7, as well has ruling for the same time period.

In order to account for making the Little Horn a future antichrist man at the very end of the age, one is forced to saw off the Little Horn, and the other 10 horns, off the 4th Beast, and insert a 1500+ year gap between the horns and the Beast. Even Futurists know very well that the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 can represent non-other than the Pagan Roman Empire, so sawing off these horns and inserting a massive and erroneous gap between the horns and the beast is to stretch the limits of prophetic interpretation beyond credulity.

The abomination of desolation and the 7 trumpets are not fully understood issues, for which we are still debating. Many understand this abomination of desolation to be a recurring issue throughout the Babylonian empires. There are at least a total of 4 abominations of desolations, each expanding greater in global application. While Historicism may encounter its own difficulties, both Preterisits and Futurists are fighting among themselves labeling each other's interpretations completely off the wall.

Stephen Bohr has some really good presentations on the Abomination of Desolation and Matthew 24. I highly recommend them.I also have his study notes on Matthew 24. He is very logical and clear in his presentations.

[cheddar]

The amount of juggling that Historicists must do is miniscule in comparison to what Futurists have to do. One example might be that Futurists are forced to make Beasts single men, even though Daniel 7 states unequivocally that beasts represent kingdoms, not single men. Then you have the Beast of Revelation 13 growing 10 horns out of it, but exercising the same persecuting characteristics of the Little Horn of Daniel 7, as well has ruling for the same time period.

In order to account for making the Little Horn a future antichrist man at the very end of the age, one is forced to saw off the Little Horn, and the other 10 horns, off the 4th Beast, and insert a 1500+ year gap between the horns and the Beast. Even Futurists know very well that the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 can represent non-other than the Pagan Roman Empire, so sawing off these horns and inserting a massive and erroneous gap between the horns and the beast is to stretch the limits of prophetic interpretation beyond credulity.

The abomination of desolation and the 7 trumpets are not fully understood issues, for which we are still debating. Many understand this abomination of desolation to be a recurring issue throughout the Babylonian empires. There are at least a total of 4 abominations of desolations, each expanding greater in global application. While Historicism may encounter its own difficulties, both Preterisits and Futurists are fighting among themselves labeling each other's interpretations completely off the wall.

Stephen Bohr has some really good presentations on the Abomination of Desolation and Matthew 24. I highly recommend them.I also have his study notes on Matthew 24. He is very logical and clear in his presentations.

Ellen White made the antichrist out to be a single man.

She said that Satan would come and impersonate Jesus Christ in the last days.

Why do historicists ignore this vision? I think it's right on and it identifies the little horn/king of the north/beast from the earth perfectly.

[Lysimachus]

Ellen White made the antichrist out to be a single man.

She said that Satan would come and impersonate Jesus Christ in the last days.

Why do historicists ignore this vision? I think it's right on and it identifies the little horn/king of the north/beast from the earth perfectly.

That is a future application. Not "futurism". Big difference. The "single man" is simply the head of the "system", but is still in succession of all the previous lines of popes.

The great Antichrist is simply the great Papal System, all-in-one, including the Pope, or whoever leads it out at the time. Remember, Babylon was a kingdom, headed by a single man, Nebuchadnezzar. Concerning the great metal statue, Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar: "Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom..." (Dan 2:38,39). Was Nebuchadnezzar the head of gold, or was Babylon? Obviously both, as verse 39 says after thee shall arise another kingdom. The 4 metals represent 4 kingdoms. The king is just the representative of the kingdom. The second manifestation of the Papal System (Catholic Church--same difference) will occur when the kingdoms of this earth once again give their power and authority to the beast. Whatever Pope is in power when this happens is of little consequence, although we may see Lucifer appear as an angel of light, and may very well take over the chair of St. Peter in the last days, performing great miracles. It is interesting to note that Malachi Martin, an ex-Jesuit, wrote concerning enactments of Lucifer's future coronation that occurred at St. Paul's Cathedral. As to exactly what manner the completion of the healing of the wound will all play out is yet to be seen. All we know is: The wound will be healed, one way or another.

So Ellen White's statement concerning Satan as a single-man is not Futurism. It is a future-application of the END-POINT of Historicism. In other words, that is the acme fulfillment of Historicism.

Remember, Futurism negates any antichrist application in the Dark Ages. It has been the same Antichrist since the days of Paul, and will finally meet its full end when Satan takes over.

[Lysimachus]

I'm also not against the possibility of a future literal application of the 1260, 1290, and 1335 of Daniel 12. There is merit I think to that interpretation, although I am not as dogmatic about it. But that isn't Futurism. That is simply the next page in Historicism's end-time pages. :)

[cheddar]

That is a future application. Not "futurism". Big difference. The "single man" is simply the head of the "system", but is still in succession of all the previous lines of popes.

The great Antichrist is simply the great Papal System, all-in-one, including the Pope, or whoever leads it out at the time. Remember, Babylon was a kingdom, headed by a single man, Nebuchadnezzar. Concerning the great metal statue, Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar: "Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom..." (Dan 2:38,39). Was Nebuchadnezzar the head of gold, or was Babylon? Obviously both, as verse 39 says after thee shall arise another kingdom. The 4 metals represent 4 kingdoms. The king is just the representative of the kingdom. The second manifestation of the Papal System (Catholic Church--same difference) will occur when the kingdoms of this earth once again give their power and authority to the beast. Whatever Pope is in power when this happens is of little consequence, although we may see Lucifer appear as an angel of light, and may very well take over the chair of St. Peter in the last days, performing great miracles. It is interesting to note that Malachi Martin, an ex-Jesuit, wrote concerning enactments of Lucifer's future coronation that occurred at St. Paul's Cathedral. As to exactly what manner the completion of the healing of the wound will all play out is yet to be seen. All we know is: The wound will be healed, one way or another.

So Ellen White's statement concerning Satan as a single-man is not Futurism. It is a future-application of the END-POINT of Historicism. In other words, that is the acme fulfillment of Historicism.

Remember, Futurism negates any antichrist application in the Dark Ages. It has been the same Antichrist since the days of Paul, and will finally meet its full end when Satan takes over.

I never claimed to be a ‘futurist’. I always get labeled as one because I think that Dan. and Rev. have their fulfillment in the last days. I don’t believe in the rapture or removing the 70th week or the 144k being literal Jews.

Nebuchadnezzar was identified as the head of the great image in Dan. 2, but Satan is identified as the ‘king of Babylon’ in Isa. 14. The bible is made up of types and antitypes. Many themes in the Old Testament find their antitype in the New Testament. Daniel said, thou art this head of gold to Nebuchadnezzar but Satan is the true head of gold and the rest of the image will be the kingdom he establishes in the last days.

Babylon was an actual ancient kingdom and it is also a last days kingdom in Rev. 17. Is it so hard to believe that Medo-Persia and Grecia could be last days kingdoms as well?

[jasd]

Quote:

[...]

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, [...] If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

>>This passage is actually overwhelming proof that Israel is realized in the Church.<<

Do you not think that the above statement takes “Replacement theology” beyond the pale?

The “church” existed as the Church in the Wilderness in the form of the COI (Acts 7:38). I can find no text wherein the Church in the Wilderness was destroyed so that another might replace it... I find instead –

That it entered a parenthetical state – until a period of 2,520 years had passed over it – according to the warnings of Gd, as delineated in Leviticus 26.

>>The New Covenant was ratified on the cross, and all gentiles who accept Christ are heirs of the covenant promise.<<

Indeed, and all Israelites are Gentiles – depending upon the perspective from whence they’re viewed. Moreover, all Gentiles not of the original national Israel are, per St Paul, grafted into National Israel/Church by way of an engraftation into the metaphoric/parabolic “Olive tree”.

>>If you are a "New Covenant" Christian, you are automtically part of the "House of Israel".<<

Indeed, national Israel; which, by default, is the “House of Israel”.

>>(compare Matthew 21:43 with 1 Peter 1:1, 2:9,10; Titus 2:14...<<

Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

As I’ve stated, there are Gentiles and there are Gentiles.

Matt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Unless the Apostles were in complete disobedience to the words of Jesus Christ – we must assume that they first ministered to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” – true, bloodline, national Israelites.

>>There is a sound rule of prophetic interpretation that Dispensationalists reject and ignore. This rule has to do with the fact that ALL the prophecies in the Old Testament given to literal national Israel were conditional.<<

Because I think it not robbery to number myself among those who believe in the unconditional promises re national Israel, I proffer just two texts affirming the unconditionality of certain of Gd’s promises...

2 Sam 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

2 Sam 7:24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel [to be] a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.

Forever is a long time – and unless my eyes have entirely failed me – I cannot find a conditional ‘if-and-or-but’ – preceding the above proffered texts. Therefore,

these texts represent but two of the many unconditional promises of Gd re national Israel.

>>...which represents God’s spiritual Israel, the seed of the woman.<<

Should the above be an allusion to the woman of Revelation 12 – and should I apply such as –

“There is a sound rule of prophetic interpretation...” and “For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little” (Is 28:10) to the texts of Revelation 12 –

I am forced to conclude that that woman represents none other than national Israel. For, to whom else was given the signifiers of the sun, the moon, and the stars – but, according to the Patriarch Jacob/Israel,

his posterity – the COI?

>>...the passage in Jeremiah 31:35-37 to mean that this promise applies to literal national Israel.<<

As it most clearly reads...

>>This was the SAME mistake of the Pharisees, and it was this false interpretation that aided them in their rejection of the Messiah.<<

The rulers of the Jews at the time of Jesus Christ were, in large part, nonIsraelites – with the Pharisees who had been educated in Alexandria, Egypt – overweening in their pride. They were overeducated in ‘systems’, which later lent itself to Gnosticism in early Xtianity. Anyway,

the Son of Gd had already been ‘slain from the foundation of the world’ and the events culminating in His rejection and crucifixion – were but a fulfillment of prophecy. How could it have been otherwise – without making Gd a liar? That said,

I agree, that just as you depict the Pharisees of that day – so it is today.

[John317]

...Does here deal with the fact that Nehemiah attests to the fact that the CITY Jerusalem lieth in waste& needing rebuilding (yet, still some 12 years after the preferred date of 457 BC) as fitting the requirements of Daniel 9:25? I ask, as you seem to subscribe to SDA orthodoxy...

Here's the text on which we must base the beginning of the "70 weeks":

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

You are claiming that the correct date of the beginning of this period is 445 BC, the time when Nehemiah was allowed by King Artaxerxes to go to Jerusalem. See Nehemiah chapters 1 & 2.

But does this fuflill the specifications of the prophecy?

First, notice that there is no "commandment" given in these chapters. We are told that Nehemiah was simply allowed personally to go to Jerusalem.

Second, Nehemiah is concerned because "the wall of Jerusalem is also broken down, and its gates are burned with fire" (Neh. 1: 3). Nehemiah 7: 4 tells us that the houses hadn't yet been rebuilt. That is why Nehemiah tells the king that the city "lies waste" or "lies in ruins." (Neh 2: 3).

Third, notice that chapters 2 through 6 are all about the building of the walls of the city. They don't show that the city itself is not functioning as a city. In fact, chapter 6: 5 tells us that the city had "nobles" and "rulers." Chapter 7 lists many tens of thousands of people, including "priets, the Levites, the gatekeeprs. the singers," and "all Israel." Ezra 7 to 8 shows that the city already had a functioning government with judges and the power to raise taxes.

Therefore the date 445 BC does not fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 9: 25, because Nehemiah chaptes 1 to 6 merely tell us that Nehemiah got permission of the king to return in order to help complete what was commanded and begun in 457 BC, as narrated in Ezra 7. This command was to "build and restore" the city. It was clearly done in 457 BC, when the government of the city was restored as an independent entity at the command of King Artexerxes. See Ezra 7: 12-26 for a copy of the command to restore & build the city.