A Revived Roman Empire?

[John317]

The little horn of Daniel's visions is not a Pope of the RCC

But you are right that it is not "a pope of the RCC."

It is the papal system, not one particular individual pope.

This can fairly easily be proved from the Bible, which gives at least 11 identifying characteristics that descibe no power on earth except the papacy. If you can point to anyone else that fulfills those identifying marks, let me know.

[Truth Files]

Ther is no system described, but an individual in this case:

The Assyrian, a Middle Eastern king of the north of Israel, who will be Satan's beast [Abaddon-Apollyon] in the human little horn described in Daniel 7

This entity will be of the workings of Satan and he will confederate a union of Middle Eastern followers .... a divided kingdom with 10 other kings that will be united by the religious cult of Islam described in Revelation 13

[cheddar]

Quote:

Ellen White made the antichrist out to be a single man.

She said that Satan would come and impersonate Jesus Christ in the last days.

Why do historicists ignore this vision? I think it's right on and it identifies the little horn/king of the north/beast from the earth perfectly.

This is blatantly untrue. EGWhite did not make the antichrist out to be a single man. She taught that the antichrist was the office of the Pope of Rome. In the Great Controversy pp624-625 she mentioned that satan who is not a man will personate christ. This is not the same as the little horn who is the papacy.

EGWhite was an Historicist.

The little horn power of Dan. 7 and 8 is the same power as the king of the north in Dan. 11. How do we know this? Both powers are involved in removing the daily and placing the abomination of desolation. The king of the north has all the characteristics of a single individual not a nation or papal power.

The daily and abomination of desolation are separated by 1290 days and happen during the time of the end. This completely rules out the use of the DFAY principle because no individual can live to be 1290 years old. Jesus also says that the abomination of desolation happens in the temple just prior to the time of trouble which throws an even bigger monkey wrench in the whole historical/papal scenario.

This question has been asked time and time again on this forum and no historical expert as even ventured an answer. Let’s just say for the sake of argument that the little horn is Rome (which it is not). How will the papacy ever tell the Muslim world what to do? Let alone control all the other varied peoples, languages and religions of the world.

[Truth Files]

The RCC is definitely a form of apostate religion, but it is not mentioned specifically in the prophetic visions at the time of the end of this present age .... not there

The "church" of various denominational persuasions lies in the breach of time lapse on the earth in which the prophetic visions are silent

[Lysimachus]

Preterism is one of the most insidious dogmas which began with two notable professing church interpreters of the RCC .... Augustine and Oriegen .... which is still a foundational teaching of the RCC today

These developed the historical/allegorical method of interpretation of the prophetic scriptures

.... many other proprietary religious movements have adopted a substantial portion of the same baggage and yet they violently oppose one another

This methodology gives allowance for all sorts of aberrant teaching by insertion of proprietary self serving ambitions

Here is how it works:

The users develop a proprietary theology first and then proceed to scripture pick the Bible for support of their follies ..... and anything that does not fit is relegated to historical allegory and swept under the rug

A very convenient way to distort truth with deception and error

The general path followed is to remove the Lord's intents with His nation of Israel and then to replace with "kingdom now" theology .... with this kingdom being for the members of the following

For example: the preterist will say that the Lord's kingdom is already on the earth and has been for the last 2000 years and it is their own particular movement in the drivers seat

That these will bring in the kingdom .... and then the Lord will come after in some obscure way .... that there is no judgment coming by the Lord's direct intervention .... and that there is no intent upon His part to come and rule the earth personally from Jerusalem for 1000 years just after

That all or most of the O.T. prophecies have been fulfilled in the past [preter] with most culminating in 70 A.D.

And that Satan is already imprisoned in the abyss so that he can not deceive the nations and has been for 2000 years

These ideas are the doctrines of demons and many have been and are being deceived by those who teach such things [Matthew 24:4-5]

They are the scoffers of the last days described in 2Peter 3 and this satanically driven perversion of the Lord's Word is growing exponentially today

If your movement or church organization has any of the components of the design of the historical/allegorical method of interpretation as part of the leading .... you have better investigate what you are following

Historicist undersandings have nothing to do with Augustine, or Origen.

Historicism dates back to the early church fathers who applied the day-year principle to the 70 weeks, and believed that the Roman Empire was the restraining power holding back the Antichrist. Later the Reformers, well after the darkness under Augustine, were able to look back in retrospect and see who that Antichrist power was that arose out of Rome---and hence were able to put together well-defined principle that the Reformers took a hold of and applied it to the 42 months as 1260 years. Augustine did not recognize the day-for-year principle for the 1260 years, and he did not understand that the Beast as the Papacy. He believed in a fictitious Antichrist like you. He died prior to the rooted establishment and persecuting power of the Papacy. The Reformers applied the very same power which Augustine considered "the City of God", and applied it to the Antichrist Beast Power.

Now if you ask me, that is a major difference.

Augustine’s Historicist perceptions were very weak, simply for the fact that he lived prior to 538 A.D., the starting point for the 1260 years of Papal ecclesiastical supremacy, and was not able to witness the fulfillment of Antichrist in its exercising state. The many other vast heresies he propounded are of far more concern than his limited perceptions of “historicism”. His founding of Amillennialism completely disqualifies him as a sufficient founder of Historicism. Dispensationalists seem to forget that there were two extremes that developed over the course of the anti and post-Nicene era. One was that of Chiliasm [extreme pre-millennialism] and the other Amillenialism [a spiritualized version of the millennium]. What most people do not realize, however, is that Augustine himself had previously been a Chiliast, but turned against chiliasm because of the “carnal” positions of some of its adherents! (See: Augustine, The City of God, book 20, chap 6, in NPNF, 1st series, vol. 2, p. 425). Most of the concepts of Chiliasm with the Anti-Nicene fathers were derived from the fantastical and extravagant descriptions of the millennium extracted from Pseudepigraphal writings! Not the Holy Scriptures. This extreme form of pre-millennialism (which was literalism to the nth degree) is what inspired Augustine to shift the pendulum in the opposite direction—thus swinging from one extreme to another.

It is impossible to attribute the principles that gave root to Historicism as originating from Augustine. The Historicist day-year principle of interpretation actually stretches way back in time to the days of Ezekiel and Daniel, and even found quite extensively in early Jewish literature stretching back to the 2nd century A.D. Early church expositors applied the day-year principle to the 70 weeks, recognizing it as a period of 490 years. Tichonius built upon this method and recognized that this same principle is applicable to other time periods given in the prophetic pages as well—such as the 3 ½ days of Revelation 11. Augustine built upon Tichonius’ method and took it to the extreme—spiritualizing scripture far more than Tichonius. Therefore, we can safely say that Historicism is NOT derived solely from the post-Nicene fathers, nor is it derived from Catholicism at all. It is built upon a balanced perspective of BOTH the ante-Nicene fathers as well as some of the Post-Nicene Fathers, and polished extensively by the reformers. It was God’s way of guiding men to a proper understanding of the prophecies as the great prophetic scroll of time unfolded. This is in perfect harmony with Jesus’ guiding principle in John 13:19; 14:29 and 16:4, that when the events foretold come to pass, we then might believe. While the larger portion of Rome’s belief structure was derived primarily from the Post-Nicene Fathers, Historicism is rooted in the Historicist interpretations of the ante-Nicene and earliest church fathers regarding the medal statue of Daniel 2, the four beasts of Daniel 7, and the seventy weeks of Daniel 9. These prophecies that pointed to the successive empires beginning with Babylon to Rome were built on a Historicist model, and we believe this model will continue all the way up until the consummation of our Lord without any gaps. We do not subscribe to the ludicrousness of sawing off the Little Horn from the fourth Beast in Daniel 7 and projecting it exclusively to the end of time. We begin this power as materializing as the “mystery of lawlessness” already brewing in the time of Paul (2 Thess 2:7), and this Little Horn power remains on this earth all the way up to finally be destroyed at the Second Coming (2 Thess 2:8) after it revives a second time from its mortal wound. This historical, continuous methodology, has withstood the test of time. As mystical as Tichonius was, God used some of the spiritual extremes of these men to later prepare the reformers in accurately identifying the Papacy as the very Antichrist and whore of Babylon. It took about seven centuries after Tichonius for the Historical Emphasis, or School of Interpretation, found entrance again into the ranks of the Roman Church. A great many writers came under the influence of Tichonius’ Seven Rules of interpretation, which influenced Augustine’s doctrine of the Christian Age millennium and dominated medieval interpretation. But beginning around 1100, there was a reawakening to historical realities, and this brought a reversal of this theory. At the same time, we cannot fail to remember the extreme literalism exercised by a great number of ante-Nicene Fathers. While they viewed the prophetic scroll of history up to their time in a historicist fashion, they naturally conceived futuristic elements concerning a literal 3 ½ year Great Tribulation, a future, diabolical one-man evil Antichrist possessing all the power of the Devil, and gave exaggerated and fantastical descriptions to the nature of the millennium. As we have noted, many of these views were influenced by their familiarity with similar concepts described in the extra-Biblical, Pseudepigraphal writings, and connected with the Beliar myth (a mythical anti-Messiah possessing all the power of the devil, and could move mountains). Yet reason demands that they placed these events in the future, for the Roman Pontiffs and the 1260 year persecution was yet future from their time. However, they were simply incapable of witnessing the nature of its progression, and as we well know, this privilege for discovering this light was granted to the Reformers and other wilderness sects such as the Waldenses. Therefore, we can safely say that Historicism is not to be blamed as rooted in Romanism. Its sound methodology was crystallized over a gradual development of time, and therefore, we can confidently establish that both the ante-Nicene and post-Nicene fathers played a role in shaping its formidability as the sound and Biblical guiding principle of interpreting prophetic time.

[Lysimachus]

I have run into a number of Futurists who accuse Historicists of essentially believing in Preterism. They argue that both Historicism and Preterism essentially operate on the same principles, and only differing in time periods. But I hope to show this to be categorically untrue. Historicism is JUST as much or more opposed to Preterism and its principles as is Futurism. Both Futurism and Preterism deny the day-for-year principle as defined for us in Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34, along with a host of other day-for-year parallels found in scripture. Both principles place the Antichrist outside of the Dark Ages, either into the distant past during the time of Antiochus Epiphanies IV or Nero, or exclusively into the future during a 7 year tribulation. In fact, I believe Preterism actually has more in common with Futurism than does Historicism. Futurism, like Preterism, in most cases identifies the Little Horn of Daniel 8 as Antiochus Epiphanies IV, but they say that the Little Horn of the Beast in Daniel 7 is different from the Little Horn in Daniel 8, and they push Daniel 7’s Little Horn as the future Antichrist. Like in Daniel 7, Historicism applies the Little Horn of Daniel 8 also to Rome, except in chapter 8 it encompasses both Pagan and Papal, whereas in chapter 7 it is only dealing with its Papal phase. In addition, Preterism, like Futurism, takes the 1260 days or 3 ½ years of tribulation and makes them literal days rather than symbolic days which stand for years according to Historicists.

I also believe that Futurists constantly confuse "Futurism" with a "Future Application". They wrongly conclude that we Historicists place no prophecies into the future, and assert that, like Preterists, we place the Antichrist and great tribulation in the past like the Preterists, except we apply them during the dark ages. But there is a big difference that they are missing. Futurism has to do with the fact that the Antichrist is placed EXCLUSIVELY (take note, "exclusively") beyond the year 1798. The Early Church Fathers, such as Ireneaus and Hyppolytus held "futuristic elements" no doubt. But these "futuristic elements" were not enough to make them "Futurists", because they lived prior to the rooted establishment of the arm of the Papacy, primarily 538 (the precise date is insignificant however). What makes one a Futurist, is that they bypass 1000+ years of history, and insert a "gap", by making the Antichrist exclusively one single man. Also keep in mind that men like Ireneaus and Hyppolytus believed the world would end around 500 A.D. which would have understandably eclipsed their ability to comprehend a future 1260 year Antichrist reign from their time. The fact that we are living some 1500 years beyond that date establishes their limited perceptions of prophecy to be “outdated”. It would seem that Futurists should know this, but they ignore it.

Futurists do not need to get us wrong, for we do believe in a Future Tribulation, and we do believe in a future Antichrist manifestation. While some Historicists may disagree, I personally believe there is a small possibility for there to be a literal Future 1260, 1290, and 1335 days based on Daniel 12. But this is only a “secondary” application, neither is it a dogmatic one of mine. I’m a historicist to the core, but even if there was a future application to this prophecy, this does not make me a "Futurist", rather, this would simply add the next scenario in the grand prophetic puzzle, because when you evaluate Historicism, Historicism is very flexible, and it allows future applications! We also mustn’t forget that Matthew 24 has about three applications regarding the great tribulation. The first application has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by Titus and the Christians who were to flea to Pela. The secondary application points to the 1260 years of Papal persecution during the Dark Ages. And the third application points to the very end of the world. If Matthew 24 can have more than one application, could it be that perhaps Daniel 12 might also?

It should be noted that Futurism exclusively forces the bulk of the prophecies in Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11, 12 and Revelation 11, 12, 13, and 17 into the future. Historicism evenly spreads them out in a "continuous fashion", taking into account the "PAST", the "PRESENT", AND the "FUTURE".

So yes, there will be a future application....this has to do with the healing of the wound of the beast. This is the "second manifestation" of the Papacy. Paul makes it very clear that the "mystery of lawlessness" (2 Thess 2:7) was already at work in Paul's day, and finally he concludes in verse 8 that the "Lawless one would be destroyed by the brightness of His coming" (Verse 8 ). This emphatically suggests that the Antichrist Power began in Paul's day, and will continue till the very end of time. The Papacy meets this fulfillment to an exact T.

A twist to this whole thing is that many Historicists do believe there will be a “single Antichrist-individual” just before Jesus comes. But this does not eclipse the plain Biblical fact that the previous succession of line of Popes did not fill the seat of Antichrist. The Biblical evidence is quite convincing that Lucifer will impersonate Christ and deceive millions of people after he musters his crowning act of deception after deceiving the masses as the coming Christ of the dawning of the new age. He may even seat himself into the Vatican, and the papacy will crown him Pope. So there is a “dualistic” application. While the Antichrist “system” is fulfilled in the Papacy, this Antichrist system will manifest itself with a single man…that being Lucifer who will take the Seat of St. Peter himself, impersonating an Angel of Light (or a Messenger of Light as the Christ, but the false one at that. This is after the wound that was received in 1798 is fully healed!

This is clearly NOT Futurism. If you think about it, these future applications do not in any way destroy the sound principles of Historicism for which ALL our Protestant Reformers subscribed to. These future events are simply a future application, or to put it in other words: Historicism finally reaches its “climax” on its future side.

In concluding, I wish to emphasize that Historicist is nearly a dead and forgotten breed among the modern evangelical world. This hermeneutic of prophetic interpretation is founded on the principles of Revelation 1:4, 8, 19; 22:16 which state....

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne." (1:4)

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME, the Almighty." (1:8 )

"Write the things which thou HAST SEEN, and the THINGS WHICH ARE, and the THINGS WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER." (1:19)

In essence, I fully believe that the Historicist hermeneutic is congruous with the nature of God. The application takes serious note to the "Past", "Present", and "Future" applications of Bible prophecy, by avoiding the pitfall of stuffing too much to the future, or too much to the past--but rather gives careful attention to the "continuous" fulfillment of Bible prophecy throughout human history. I believe that Historicism is not only well-backed by scripture, but is also supported by volumes of exegetical Historicist works from some of the greatest Bible minds of the past which have been largely forgotten by the popular evangelical world of today, especially beginning around 1850 and on.

[Truth Files]

SDA teaches partial preterism and incorporates historical allegory in the process of interpreting Bible prophecy which allows for the insertion of the organization and their view into the prophetic visions by replacement theology .... this combination of methodologies has created the falsehood of SDA's rendering of the prophetic scriptures

[Lysimachus]

SDA teaches partial preterism and incorporates historical allegory in the process of interpreting Bible prophecy which allows for the insertion of the organization and their view into the prophetic visions by replacement theology .... this combination of methodologies has created the falsehood of SDA's rendering of the prophetic scriptures

You can repeat this foolishness day and night, week to week, month to month, year to year, like a noisy parrot that can't get enough theological crackers, but it isn't going to make this lie any closer to the truth.

Partial Preterism teaches that the Second Coming of Christ took place in A.D. 70. That bulk of Revelation was fulfilled up to the time of Nero. That very little was to be fulfilled after that, and that the Papacy has no application to prophecy.

SDA's teach that the Antichrist and the Second Coming are all yet future, and no application to the time of Nero. SDA's believe that the Antichrist WAS (during the 1260 years), IS (during it's wounded state), and WILL BE (during it's second, revived manifestation--in the future).

Partial Preterism and SDA Historicism are as different from one another as midnight is from the noon-day sun.

Bottom line.

[jasd]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: jasd

...Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.<<

Ive bolded the only relevant phrases, as this prophecys beginning terminus is of utmost importance.

Tell me how Nehemiah 1 and 2 cannot correlate with Daniel 8:25, which deals entirely with materially reconstructive matters; yet, you've managed to take the entirety of the first three decrees that dealt ONLY with the House of Gd/Temple together with a few extraneous matters and translate them as fulfilling

to restore and to build Jerusalem and the street shall be built again, and the wall of Daniel 9:25!

Daniel addressed the matter of the CITY and not the matter of the House of Gd/Temple. Apples and oranges.

>>A third decree, one made by King Artaxerxes, authorized Ezra to install both city and regional officers and made the city of Jerusalem the administrative center for the whole province (Ezra 7: 11-26).<<

Well and good; however, how does that square with the necessity of the rebuilding of the CITY Jerusalem of Daniel 8:25.

>>Daniel 9: 25 speaks of "streets... and the wall" (NKJV). The first word, rehob, means "an open place" or "a plaza." This place was usually located inside the city gate, where court cases were decided. In a more general way,<<

Indeed, as the “gate” wherein Mordecai sat – where issues of govt were addressed. However, Nehemiah explicitly noted that the condition of the gates were – nonexistent – indicating that whatever governing that had been going on – was in a locale other than at the gates – or, as you would have it – streets.

>>In the light of its Akkadian cognates, the second noun, harus, means "town moat." It describes the "trench cut into the rock onthe exterior walls of the city in order to make the wall a more difficult obstacle for those who would attempt to attack from the outside."<<

That is, admittedly, interesting; however, one cannot find any evidence in Writ that Jerusalem ever had a trench, a moat, or a ditch (other than the one for the pool of Jerusalem). Archaeology hasn’t helped either. We must remember that Jerusalem never had a lot of water... One wonders,

in light of Nehemiah’s request for timber/beams for the wall of the city (Neh 2:8), which he found “broken down” (Neh 2:13)

(Ezra rejoiced that the Lord gave them a wall...; however, its antecedent seems to be the “house of our Gd”)

>>NOTE: the margin of the NKJV has "open square" for its translation of rehob; and "moat" for its translation of harus.

If the two words were meant to complement each other (merism), then the meaning intended here is that the city will be completely restored-- both the internal layout of the city and its external defenses. "Jerusalem would be built again 'inside and out.'"<<

Indeed, should the walls have been repaired – it follows that its gates would also have been repaired. And, if – as you suggest – that the “streets” of Daniel 9:25 were the open spaces in the gates where govt conducted its affairs – well then, voilà... repair the walls and the gates, following, are rebuilt.

>>An alternative proposal is that the word rehob means "city square" while harus describes the city's public place where decisions were made.<<

And, as well, alternatively – “harus” may best indicate ‘sharp-pointed’. The kind of ‘sharp-pointedness’ which best defines charagma – from whence we translate “mark” – as in Mark of the Beast.

[jasd]

I’ve forgotten which post suggested that the letters supplied to Nehemiah by the king – authorizing his rebuilding of the CITY Jerusalem – were in fact – not a “commandment” as delineated in Daniel 9:25

I’ve set forth (following) the meaning of “commandment” (Dan 9:25).

Commandment (#1697; dabar)

1) speech, word, speaking, thing

a) speech

saying, utterance

c) word, words

d) business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)

In other words, “a growl, or a hiss”..., sufficed.

[Lysimachus]

Concerning your last 2 posts jasd, please tell me what you are trying to prove, what you are trying to disprove, and what you are defending. Then I'll know what I'm reading.

Also, why are you responding to yourself?

[jasd]

>>...and show the fulfillment in history.<<

School of Preterism?

Why does it have to be history?

[John317]

This question has been asked time and time again on this forum and no historical expert as even ventured an answer. Let&#146;s just say for the sake of argument that the little horn is Rome (which it is not). How will the papacy ever tell the Muslim world what to do? Let alone control all the other varied peoples, languages and religions of the world.

Never saw the question or I would have answered it before.

For one thing, just because we don't know exactly how something is going to happen doesn't mean it won't happen or that the Bible doesn't say it will happen.

People also didn't know exactly how the Creator God was going to become a man, but it happened.

But here's a big hint: All through history the Papacy has never had its own military. The Papacy has always used the militaries of other governments to do his biddings, and that is doubtless what he will do again.

As far as Muslims and people of other religions are concerned, the conditions of the world are obviously going to change drastically between now and then. You are basing your ideas on what the world is like at the present time, but the Bible describes a world unlike the one in which we live. So something will change to cause the end-time events to happen exactly as the Bible describes them. There will be terrible natural catastrophies, social problems we never anticipated, massive wars, perhaps nuclear accidents and detonations, the biggest energy crisis the world has ever known, many earthquakes, pollution of air and water, rampant lawlessness, national economic collapses, world-wide famines and pestilences, and possibly even a comet or two slamming into the earth or threatening to. The Bible's picture is of all these things happening at once, so that governments will be quite willing to do anything to save themselves and the world from total destruction.

Remember the prophecy shows that people will either wonder after the beast-power because they believe it in their heart or they do it out of expediency. They don't all have to be Catholic to obey the beast-power and receive the mark of the beast. All they have to do to receive the mark is to obey out of fear or for any other reason.

[John317]

As moderator:

JASD, you will get more readers who will understand your posts if you use the "quote" "quickquoke" buttons. Your posts are very confusing to most people.

[jasd]

>>Concerning your last 2 posts jasd, please tell me what you are trying to prove, what you are trying to disprove, and what you are defending.<<

I was responding to posts made by John317.

I am ‘apologizing’ for Writ as written and meant to be understood. I am showing that Daniel 9:24 depends upon the parameters set forth in Daniel 9:25 for its terminus a quo. Writ is not meant to be reverse-engineered as did those who disregarded Gd’s injunction to seal the book of Daniel until the time of the end – when knowledge shall be increased and men shall run to and fro.

It can hardly be said that the book of Daniel was unsealed before either the discovery of germ theory or when men still were born, lived, and died within a 20 mile radius.

Given the above, ipso facto, whatever was developed and bruited as doctrine before then cannot be entirely true or accurate. Mebbe, in part, but not in entirety.

I’m showing that the 457 BC date taken to begin counting the 70-weeks prophecy – is inaccurate, as the date does not meet the requirements set down in Daniel 9:25. Moreover,

prefacing the argument – there is a restrictive condition even larger – and that is, the entirety of Israel (all the tribes and not just the Jews of the Southern Kingdom) must be in view at some time during the fulfillment of the prophecy – per

Dan 9:7 ...and unto all Israel, [that are] near, and [that are] far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

Hmm, all Israel? Not just Judah [southern Kingdom]? Seems tah be so, yes? no?

Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

ALL Israel, again? “therefore” ... “because we”? Whas wid dat? ALL Israel? not just Judah [southern Kingdom]?

Dan 9:20 And while I [was] speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

“my people Israel”?

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

“upon thy people”? That’s ALL Israel, yes?

ALL Israel,

The subject of Daniel’s prayer was Israel, ALL Israel – with Judah [southern Kingdom] being but parcel – that.

Should the above obtain..., I ask, “Where in present dogma is ALL Israel in view? Where, between the years 457 BC and AD 34 was ALL Israel, near and far off, in view?”

Given the above, one is compelled to use the date of Nehemiah 2 to begin counting the years; encounter the year ending with the fulfillment of the threescore and two weeks when Messiah is cut off; and... whooooops! lacunae, parenthesis, gap – until ALL Israel is in view together – that the final week of prophecy may be fulfilled.

Jesus Christ provided the precedent for utilizing a gap in prophecy (Lu 4:17-21)

>>Then I'll know what I'm reading. <<

Then you’ll see that I post adversarially, for the most part.

>>Also, why are you responding to yourself?<<

There was no one particularly to whom the post was addressed – so I addressed it to myself (lest someone take offense ;-)

[Lysimachus]

JASD,

I will deal with your arguments against the 457 B.C. date at a later time, but for now I will just say that from your post, you seem to be ignoring just about everything I have posted in the 70 x 7 thread. I have already shown how mathmatics force a 457 starting date, even if the verses in question do not seem to support it (which they do support it though).

[Lysimachus]

You are also ignoring the works of Bob Pickle. You're inducing your own preconceived notions of how you read those texts, when the math does not agree with you.

[jasd]

>>JASD, you will get more readers who will understand your posts if you use...<<

John317, I’ve never been concerned with the number(s) of those who read my posts. I still hesitate that mebbe – some are better off not reading my posts, as I try to make them informative – for the most part, and realize that many prefer to keep their own viewpoint(s) unassailed. I try to post for those who are more clinical in their thought processes and – leave the rest to Gd – that He might cover the senses of those who cannot digest what I post.

>>the "quote" "quickquoke" buttons. Your posts are very confusing to most people.<<

What’s the “quickquoke” button? Anyway, perhaps it is time I change my format. Never let it be said that old geezers cannot change.

So, never having ever looked for a “quickquoke” button before – where is it and how is it used?

[John317]

...What's the quickquoke button? Anyway, perhaps it is time I change my format. Never let it be said that old geezers cannot change.

So, never having ever looked for a quickquoke button before where is it and how is it used?

Do you see below, the following:

Edit-- Reply --Quote--- Quick Reply-- Quick Quote-- Notify-- Email Post

Click on the "Quick Quote," write something and then click on "Submit." See what you get.

[jasd]

>>...you seem to be ignoring just about everything I have posted in the 70 x 7 thread.<<

Probably true. Living out here on my few acres (as EGW advises) in the country – I have only dial-up service. Tried to get DSL and ended up without telephone service for about 7 months. Screw-up in the main banks (which they insisted was impossible). Dial-up sloooowwwwwww. So, I don’t read everything.

And..., some of those posts are sooooo loooonng!

>>I have already shown how mathmatics force a 457 starting date,<<

I have a Bible with onionskin pages. Mathematics can be made to yield the number of pages – the thickness of my onionskin pages – it would take to reach the moon, the sun, or somewhere between the moon and NYC...

>>...even if the verses in question do not seem to support it (which they do support it though).<<

We cannot have a more sure guide than the direction the HS and text leads.

[jasd]

One little click for jasd, one giant click for mankind.

You know, I've never looked beyond edit and reply. I seemed to accept that "I'd do it my way..."

editing --

clicked Quickquote -- wrote a masterpiece and clicked --Submit

and yous gets what yous gets...

Aw well, I'll try tomorrow. Going to watch Leslie Howard in "The Scarlet Pimpernel" - call it a day.

[John317]

OK. Just experiment some time with those things, you might be glad you did.

Don't you like the way the other posts look when they have the quote boxes?

[John317]

....

did Quickquote -- submit

and yous gets what yous gets...

But remember you can edit and make the quotes as short or long as you want. You can quote only a few words like I did above that I am focussing on or you can quote a whole post.

It helps readers to know immediately what you're replying to.

[Lysimachus]

>>...you seem to be ignoring just about everything I have posted in the 70 x 7 thread.<<

Probably true. Living out here on my few acres (as EGW advises) in the country – I have only dial-up service.

[phkrause]

Never saw the question or I would have answered it before.

For one thing, just because we don't know exactly how something is going to happen doesn't mean it won't happen or that the Bible doesn't say it will happen.

People also didn't know exactly how the Creator God was going to become a man, but it happened.

But here's a big hint: All through history the Papacy has never had its own military. The Papacy has always used the militaries of other governments to do his biddings, and that is doubtless what he will do again.

As far as Muslims and people of other religions are concerned, the conditions of the world are obviously going to change drastically between now and then. You are basing your ideas on what the world is like at the present time, but the Bible describes a world unlike the one in which we live. So something will change to cause the end-time events to happen exactly as the Bible describes them. There will be terrible natural catastrophies, social problems we never anticipated, massive wars, perhaps nuclear accidents and detonations, the biggest energy crisis the world has ever known, many earthquakes, pollution of air and water, rampant lawlessness, national economic collapses, world-wide famines and pestilences, and possibly even a comet or two slamming into the earth or threatening to. The Bible's picture is of all these things happening at once, so that governments will be quite willing to do anything to save themselves and the world from total destruction.

Remember the prophecy shows that people will either wonder after the beast-power because they believe it in their heart or they do it out of expediency. They don't all have to be Catholic to obey the beast-power and receive the mark of the beast. All they have to do to receive the mark is to obey out of fear or for any other reason.

Excellent points John. The world is already different than it was 30/40 years ago. Back than I don't believe many would've said that we'd have all this financial problems that so many countries are in. You can easily see that as one country fails others fail also, just like a domino effect. I believe this will happen with most if not all religions, slowly but surely they will disappear and come together for the sake of oneness and that will leave the true believers in God on the outside. Its easy to see these things falling together. Its just a matter of how long or quick it will be. And I believe the Bible says the last events will come really quickly.