Moderators John317 Posted July 19, 2011 Moderators Posted July 19, 2011 I hope EVERYONE'S belief is based on their own personal Bible study, and not taking the word of anyone as truth that is not Jesus Christ, without verification. You and me included. Right? Sure, but I don't believe it's right to limit it to the words of Jesus Christ as recorded in the books of Matthew and John. There are, for instance, the words of Jesus that He inpired the prophet Isaiah to write and the apostle John to write in the Apocalypse. Those are as truly the words of Christ as are the words in the Gospel of John. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Truth Files Posted July 19, 2011 Author Posted July 19, 2011 "Frankly, I suspect that Islam will destroy Rome and the seat of the Papal System, shortly" >No question about this .... Satan's beast in the Islamic little horn will seek to destroy all that will not worship him as a god [Revelation 13] >Those of the Roman "church" will be prime targets for His wrath .... and so will Israel and the other nations of the gentiles [Daniel 8:23-25; 11:41; 11:44; 12:7; Revelation 17:16-18] It is the Lord who will drive this satanic onslaught [1Thessalonians 2:2-12; Revelation 12;12; 17:16-18] to punish the unbelieving inhabitants of the earth .... then He will turn on Satan's beast and followers and destroy them at Armageddon [Revelation 16:1-16; 19:11-21] Quote Stephen - Author - Truth Files
Lysimachus Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 "Frankly, I suspect that Islam will destroy Rome and the seat of the Papal System, shortly" >No question about this .... Satan's beast in the Islamic little horn will seek to destroy all that will not worship him as a god [Revelation 13] >Those of the Roman "church" will be prime targets for His wrath .... and so will Israel and the other nations of the gentiles [Daniel 8:23-25; 11:41; 11:44; 12:7; Revelation 17:16-18] It is the Lord who will drive this satanic onslaught [1Thessalonians 2:2-12; Revelation 12;12; 17:16-18] to punish the unbelieving inhabitants of the earth .... then He will turn on Satan's beast and followers and destroy them at Armageddon [Revelation 16:1-16; 19:11-21] If anything, Daniel 11 suggests that the Christian forces, headed by Papal authorization, will be the ones to destroy Islam or severely cripple it. The Papacy would be the king of the north, and Islam the king of the south. Pastor Tim Roosenberg builds a strong case for this interpretation here in his video presentations. God is using Islam only to hold the Antichrist/Beast power in check, but they will never overcome and destroy the Papal System. Never. And those kings that destroy the Papal Power is after probation closes, and after they realized they have been duped...after it is too late. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
jasd Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 Quote: Originally Posted By: jasd Frankly, I suspect that Islam will destroy Rome and the seat of the Papal System, shortly. >>Never happen. The seat of the papal system will be destroyed all right but not by a human hand but by God's. That's according to Bible prophecy. The Bible predicts that the Papacy will continue to get stronger until it is utterly destroyed in seven last plagues and at the second coming of Christ. The Bible also predicts that the USA will help the Papal system become stronger. SDAs (specifically Ellen G. White) said this clear back in the 1800s on the basis of Bible prophecy, and now we see it happening. It began happening in the 1980s. It will keep happening.<< Well, as long as we’re going to be dogmatic about it – let me remind – that much of the above was developed from the book of Daniel far and away before man ever began to “run to and fro” and hooks it into aspects of Revelation, which clearly sets the ‘times’ of its interpretation in the yet, future. Rev 4:1 ...Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Supposedly, Gd not only inspired men to write – but to do so with, at least, some semblance of order – else all is hodge-podge. Fact is, we haven’t the foggiest where the date-certain was/is to where St John was taken – in his “hereafter” experience. The first event thereafter Revelation 4:1 that is earth-related occurs in the 6th chapter, verse 2 – with the unsealing of the scroll revealing the “White horse and rider”. One assumes chronology... Given, that there is no certainty re the 4 horsemen – the next occurring earth-event is unveiled with the 6th seal, 12th verse, same chapter. Aside from delineating the catastrophic happenings (by their nature and on the face of it – they are yet future) – there is an item of interest: “...and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.” This puts the kibosh upon those who treat the placement of Jesus Christ’s foot upon the Mount of Olives eastward of the Old City Jerusalem as a literal event. Inasmuch as “every mountain is moved out of its place” the interpretation of the prophecy has to be drawn from figurative facts – and that is that Gd represents peoples as ‘Mountains’ – and that the COI has repeatedly been signified in Writ as the Olive tree. Ipso facto, Jesus Christ returns first to His peoples – His dispensationally national peoples - the COI. Holy Writ begins in Genesis with the COI and it ends in Revelation with the COI. Beginning and ending... Quote
Lysimachus Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 I asked once before, but I don't think anyone answered me. What does COI stand for? Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
jasd Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 >>What does COI stand for?<< It is an 'initialism' of Children Of Israel. Quote
Truth Files Posted July 20, 2011 Author Posted July 20, 2011 "The Bible predicts that the Papacy will continue to get stronger until it is utterly destroyed in seven last plagues and at the second coming of Christ. The Bible also predicts that the USA will help the Papal system become stronger. SDAs (specifically Ellen G. White) said this clear back in the 1800s on the basis of Bible prophecy, and now we see it happening. It began happening in the 1980s. It will keep happening." Do you get out much? Here are just a few scriptures that simply do not jive with your story [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; 39; Daniel 8:9; 11:36-45; 12:7; Micah 5; Joel 2:20] Not a picture of the Pope and his palace guards The RCC in Europe is dwindling and the churches are empty It is the Muslims who are encroaching there today and else where There are 1.2 billion of the adherents of Islam .... surpassing the membership of the RCC We are not living in the days of the crusades and the inquisition long past Reformation theology is bankrupt today with no relevance to the coming time of the end of this present age as described in the visions of the Bible prophets Those who cling to the foundational interpretations of the reformers [like EGW and the SDA, and others] cannot render the prophetic scriptures with any degree of accuracy Quote Stephen - Author - Truth Files
Dr. Rich Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 TF, reading what you wrote about the bible predicting something shows me that you have no real clue to the singular and absolute truth of this matter. God did NOT, and will not, pridict anything! God KNOWS what is going to happen and what He said is a prophecy. There is a big difference between prophecy and predicting! Sure, you are allowed to say that YOU THINK what you wrote is true, but it isn't! It's clear that Rome is gone forever and will NEVER be a threat again as we see in Dan. 7:11. Catholics are absolutly no threat to anyone as they are NOT, and WILL not ever be a political power no matter how one slices and dices it. Quote
Lysimachus Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 TF, reading what you wrote about the bible predicting something shows me that you have no real clue to the singular and absolute truth of this matter. God did NOT, and will not, pridict anything! God KNOWS what is going to happen and what He said is a prophecy. There is a big difference between prophecy and predicting! Sure, you are allowed to say that YOU THINK what you wrote is true, but it isn't! It's clear that Rome is gone forever and will NEVER be a threat again as we see in Dan. 7:11. Catholics are absolutly no threat to anyone as they are NOT, and WILL not ever be a political power no matter how one slices and dices it. The Catholic Papacy on the outside will not look like it has power, but they will be the ones behind the scenes, and the ones in power (European Union, United Nations, USA, etc.) will be actually the "henchmen" for the Papal System, in disguise. This is why nobody will realize that the Papacy is the ones behind the scenes calling the shots. Things are moving brothers and sisters. Oh it's happening! The Jaws of Rome are closing in tighter and tighter, and everything Adventism has been predicting is coming to pass. Take a look! http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/home/article/74.html The European Sunday Alliance movement just launched June 20th! These are "SMALL" beginning baby steps toward what Adventists have predicting concerning national Sunday legislation and a Sunday vs. Sabbath controversy. Check out this video that goes along with it: http://youtu.be/AMczlVv41es PS: John317, and all moderators, it's time you allow embedding videos in here. Every other forum I'm in has it enabled. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
cheddar Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Thank God at least one person knows that the word prophecy means to foretell the future and not the past. Lysimackus keeps bringing out these same old tired historical interpretations! The historical approach to prophecy is on life support, it's time to pull the plug. The king of the south has sons and daughters and he sits down with the king of the north at the same table - these are things that people would do not nations or kingdoms. How do 2 kingdoms sit down at the same table and speak lies to each other? It's impossible. Let alone the fact that all this happens at the 'time of the end'. Miz asked a good question Lysimackus, when does the 'time of the end' begin? The middle ages, 1844, when? Just remember that it happens just prior to the 'time of trouble' which is still future unless you throw that in the past as well. Quote
Lysimachus Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Let alone the fact that all this happens at the 'time of the end'. Miz asked a good question Lysimackus, when does the 'time of the end' begin? The middle ages, 1844, when? Just remember that it happens just prior to the 'time of trouble' which is still future unless you throw that in the past as well. We aren't going to pull the plug cheddar. If anything, the historic interpretations are being vindicated within the last decade more than ever before. The arguments have been refined, fine tuned, and sharpened significantly, and the Futurist interpretations are up for grabs and desperately trying to save their theology built upon sand. D.S. Farris and Mike Warren have risen up like a crow out of dry ashes with their site: www.HearingTheTruth.org The "Prophetic Toolchest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion" book along with their radio shows DEMOLISH the Futurist interpretations so well, it's not even funny. Your problem is that you are not looking at time in God's perspective. Even if we begin the "time of the end" in 1798, that's still about 5,800 years out of 6,000. If you travel for 6,000 miles, and you only have 200 miles to go, wouldn't you say you're "just before the end"? I would say so. Barely ANY time has transpired since 1844 when comparing with the time that has elapsed over the course of human history. God is a big God, and his prophecies are covering the entire span of human history. And this is congruous with the nature of God. The historicist hermeneutic of prophetic interpretation is founded on the principles of Revelation 1:4, 8, 19; 22:16 which state.... "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne." (1:4) "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME, the Almighty." (1:8 ) "Write the things which thou HAST SEEN, and the THINGS WHICH ARE, and the THINGS WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER." (1:19) In essence, I fully believe that the Historicist hermeneutic is congruous with the nature of God. The application takes serious note to the "Past", "Present", AND "Future" applications of Bible prophecy, by avoiding the pitfall of stuffing too much to the future, or too much to the past--but rather gives careful attention to the "continuous" fulfillment of Bible prophecy throughout human history. I believe that Historicism is not only well-backed by scripture, but is also supported by volumes of exegetical Historicist works from some of the greatest Bible minds of the past which have been largely forgotten by the popular evangelical world of today, especially beginning around 1850 and on. Seriously, what kind of DYNAMITE has to go off before you guys can see these things? Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Lysimachus Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Thank God at least one person knows that the word prophecy means to foretell the future and not the past. Lysimackus keeps bringing out these same old tired historical interpretations! The historical approach to prophecy is on life support, it's time to pull the plug. The king of the south has sons and daughters and he sits down with the king of the north at the same table - these are things that people would do not nations or kingdoms. How do 2 kingdoms sit down at the same table and speak lies to each other? It's impossible. Please do quote the verses you are referring to so I can analyze them. Once again, you are probably relying on Old Testament types that will never take place. When you rely on these detailed Old Testament descriptions, you reveal that you do not understand the difference between prophetic Conditional Types that point forward to Unconditional Antitypes. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
cheddar Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 If the historical approach to prophecy provided answers to Dan. and Rev. I would be all for it but instead of providing answers it only generates even more questions! The last days will involve all people and all religions - How will the papacy control the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and all the others. I spent two years in Iraq when I was in the military and I got to know muslim people from first hand knowledge. Sad to say but they hate Americans and still hate the Jews and I'm pretty sure they could care less about what the Pope says. How's the papacy going to tell the muslim world what to do? Quote
cheddar Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 When you rely on these detailed Old Testament descriptions, you reveal that you do not understand the difference between prophetic Conditional Types that point forward to Unconditional Antitypes. The historical approach does not provide answers to Dan. chapter 11, so you have to invent something that will. Quote
Lysimachus Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lysimachus When you rely on these detailed Old Testament descriptions, you reveal that you do not understand the difference between prophetic Conditional Types that point forward to Unconditional Antitypes. The historical approach does not provide answers to Dan. chapter 11, so you have to invent something that will. But your approach to your problem with Daniel 11 is uncalled for. Example: If you give an exclusive futuristic application to Daniel 11, now you have problems with Daniel 7 which calls for a historicist approach--especially knowing full well that the 4th beast is the Roman Empire, and in order to make the Little Horn future, you have to saw off the Little Horn from the beast and insert a 1500+ year gap between the horn and the beast. So basically, the right approach would be "I do not fully understand Daniel 11, but one day we will", and let the other chapters that are simpler to understand show you that they must be interpreted in a historicist fashion. Don't get me wrong, there are future applications. But do not confuse "future applications" with "futurism". One can find many future events yet to come, but that doesn't mean it isn't historicism. Historicism is flexible, and since the history of this world isn't over, naturally, a number of future events must transpire before the historicist picture can finally be over. And that's at the consummation of all things. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Dr. Rich Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Thank God at least one person knows that the word prophecy means to foretell the future and not the past. Lysimackus keeps bringing out these same old tired historical interpretations! The historical approach to prophecy is on life support, it's time to pull the plug. The king of the south has sons and daughters and he sits down with the king of the north at the same table - these are things that people would do not nations or kingdoms. How do 2 kingdoms sit down at the same table and speak lies to each other? It's impossible. Let alone the fact that all this happens at the 'time of the end'. Miz asked a good question Lysimackus, when does the 'time of the end' begin? The middle ages, 1844, when? Just remember that it happens just prior to the 'time of trouble' which is still future unless you throw that in the past as well. Thanks Cheddar for helping Lysimackus with this issue! Quote
Lysimachus Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Thanks Cheddar for helping Lysimackus with this issue! I was helped? News to me! And my screen name is "Lysimachus", not "LysimacKus". Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Truth Files Posted July 20, 2011 Author Posted July 20, 2011 Preterism is one of the most insidious dogmas which began with two notable professing church interpreters of the RCC .... Augustine and Oriegen .... which is still a foundational teaching of the RCC today These developed the historical/allegorical method of interpretation of the prophetic scriptures .... many other proprietary religious movements have adopted a substantial portion of the same baggage and yet they violently oppose one another This methodology gives allowance for all sorts of aberrant teaching by insertion of proprietary self serving ambitions Here is how it works: The users develop a proprietary theology first and then proceed to scripture pick the Bible for support of their follies ..... and anything that does not fit is relegated to historical allegory and swept under the rug A very convenient way to distort truth with deception and error The general path followed is to remove the Lord's intents with His nation of Israel and then to replace with "kingdom now" theology .... with this kingdom being for the members of the following For example: the preterist will say that the Lord's kingdom is already on the earth and has been for the last 2000 years and it is their own particular movement in the drivers seat That these will bring in the kingdom .... and then the Lord will come after in some obscure way .... that there is no judgment coming by the Lord's direct intervention .... and that there is no intent upon His part to come and rule the earth personally from Jerusalem for 1000 years just after That all or most of the O.T. prophecies have been fulfilled in the past [preter] with most culminating in 70 A.D. And that Satan is already imprisoned in the abyss so that he can not deceive the nations and has been for 2000 years These ideas are the doctrines of demons and many have been and are being deceived by those who teach such things [Matthew 24:4-5] They are the scoffers of the last days described in 2Peter 3 and this satanically driven perversion of the Lord's Word is growing exponentially today If your movement or church organization has any of the components of the design of the historical/allegorical method of interpretation as part of the leading .... you have better investigate what you are following Quote Stephen - Author - Truth Files
cheddar Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich Thanks Cheddar for helping Lysimackus with this issue! I was helped? News to me! And my screen name is "Lysimachus", not "LysimacKus". Lysimachus Macedonian King of Thrace Lysimachus (c. 361-281 B.C.) was a member of Alexander's Companion cavalry who particularly distinguished himself in India. Following Alexander's death he became governor of Thrace. After Perdiccas had rejected the hand of Antipater's daughter Nicaea, Lysimachus married her and in 315 he joined the coalition of Ptolemy, Seleucus, and Cassander against Antigonus. For many years he was obliged to occupy himself in pacifying his territory in Thrace against the rebellious Thracian tribes and the coastal Greek cities, and consolidating his authority. But in 301 he launched a perfectly timed surprise invasion of Asia Minor, and in the following year effected a junction of his forces with Seleucus to defeat and kill Antigonus at Ipsus. Lysimachus was the principal beneficiary of the partition of Antigonus' territories which followed the battle. His newly acquired dominions stretched from north to south of Asia Minor, shut out Seleucus from the western seaboard and thus sowed the seeds of future conflict. In the last years of his reign Lysimachus' autocratic and extortionate methods of government became intensely unpopular, and when Seleucus invaded his territory in 282, he met little resistance. Lysimachus made a stand at Corupedium near Magnesia in Asia Minor and was killed in the battle. Even your name is historical! That is dedication. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 I hope EVERYONE'S belief is based on their own personal Bible study, and not taking the word of anyone as truth that is not Jesus Christ, without verification. You and me included. Right? Sure, but I don't believe it's right to limit it to the words of Jesus Christ as recorded in the books of Matthew and John. There are, for instance, the words of Jesus that He inpired the prophet Isaiah to write and the apostle John to write in the Apocalypse. Those are as truly the words of Christ as are the words in the Gospel of John. Yes, I fully agree. That is why I use the same Scripture that Jesus used when He was here on earth, namely the Law and the Prophets, AKA The OT. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 20, 2011 Moderators Posted July 20, 2011 OK, now if only we can begin to have agreement on at least some of the things in the books of Paul et al. I imagine you recognize some truths in his letters and in the book of Acts and Luke and Mark, right? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Aussiemike Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Quote: Ellen White made the antichrist out to be a single man. She said that Satan would come and impersonate Jesus Christ in the last days. Why do historicists ignore this vision? I think it's right on and it identifies the little horn/king of the north/beast from the earth perfectly. This is blatantly untrue. EGWhite did not make the antichrist out to be a single man. She taught that the antichrist was the office of the Pope of Rome. In the Great Controversy pp624-625 she mentioned that satan who is not a man will personate christ. This is not the same as the little horn who is the papacy. EGWhite was an Historicist. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 20, 2011 Moderators Posted July 20, 2011 I agree. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Truth Files Posted July 20, 2011 Author Posted July 20, 2011 The little horn of Daniel's visions is not a Pope of the RCC [Daniel 8:9 .... 11:36-45] [Micah 5:5-6] [Revelation 9:11; 11:2; 11:7; 13:1-4] Quote Stephen - Author - Truth Files
Moderators John317 Posted July 20, 2011 Moderators Posted July 20, 2011 OK, give us a Bible study on the identity of the little horn power of Daniel 7 and 8. Show the Bible's characteristics of this power and show the fulfillment in history. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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