Who is Gog?

[John317]

John317,

EGW did and said exactly as I stated to you .... and I do not have to prove anything

If you are not aware of this [i think you are], and or you choose to ignore it, so be it

You cannot come on the Forum and spread lies. If you cannot show proof of what you claim about Ellen White, your posts about it may be deleted because they are merely falsely and maliciously attacking a dead person who obviously cannot defend herself. I am giving you a chance to show that you are right. Can you do it? It should not be hard to do if you have the evidence.

If you can prove what you say, that is fine-- but don't think that you can come on the Forum and say anything you feel like without being held to account.

[John317]

This thread is about Ezekiel's view of Gog .... and no one has given the SDA rendering of this significant passage of scripture

I wonder why?

Why don't you give yours?

It will be given but only after you deal with the post I just wrote.

SDAs don't necessarily have an "official" view or interpretation about "Gog." However, I will answer your questions as soon as I can. But that is on condition you answer my posts about your allegations concerning Ellen White.

And please don't forget post #461866, which was in response to something you said about the IJ.

[Truth Files]

"It will be given but only after you deal with the post I just wrote"

If you insist John317 .... I have read much of White's GC

.... and I can post her very words related to what I have stated at this point about her and her associate's attempts to cover Miller's failed predictions .... and much more ... I could post things like the following all day long

.... but I am not sure that this would be fitting for the forum .... what do you think?

These things have been evaluated by many today .... including myself

So tell me about this John317 .... and which side of the door are you on? ..... are you one without a mediator?

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil.

— The Great Controversy, chapter 24

Then you tell me about Gog ... OK?

[Dr. Shane]

EGW did and said exactly as I stated to you .... and I do not have to prove anything

You have to prove it if you are to have any credibility on this board.

[Lysimachus]

Since you brought up the subject of salvation and eternal security Truth Files, I invite you to read this massive thread I created on Once Saved Always Saved:

Once Saved Always Saved - Can a believer who is saved choose to be lost?

You are free to post your thoughts in that thread. That forum is owned by the same owner that owns this forum. It may be that my article may constitute the largest compilation of readable texts in defense that one can lose their salvation on the net.

Also, do not pretend that our doctrine on salvation is exclusive to Adventism. Numerous non-SDA's believe just like SDA's on this matter. So when you pick on Adventists for not believing in Eternal Security or "OSAS", then make this out to look like an "Adventist" thing, you are using the wrong hook to hang your doubt on about Adventism. It's a "strawman" argument.

[Truth Files]

OSAS is not the issue at hand .... I want John 317 to discuss White's GC, chapter 24

.... and then to get back to the subject of this post

He feels that he needs proof of EGW's false prophecies, contradictions, and false teaching .... and if need be, I might consider posting her own writings and published statements for demonstration

I already know that one who has escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ can willfully walk away [2Peter 2:1-22]

..... and I only need this one verse to convince me

[ClubV12]

...what a waste of band width this is.

Man you just keep posting thread after thread dealing with the same issues. This is becoming little more than SPAM. Please, go back to your web site and post more stuff over there, not here,,, my head hurts. :)

[Lysimachus]

OSAS is not the issue at hand .... I want John 317 to discuss White's GC, chapter 24

.... and then to get back to the subject of this post

He feels that he needs proof of EGW's false prophecies, contradictions, and false teaching .... and if need be, I might consider posting her own writings and published statements for demonstration

I already know that one who has escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ can willfully walk away [2Peter 2:1-22]

..... and I only need this one verse to convince me

It may sound arrogant, but I can safely predict you're already going to lose on this one. I've read most of the charges against her, but in my sincere desire to know the truth, I found sound solid and satisfactory answers and explanations for everyone of these charges. Charges that were false. There are numerous websites that completely make minced meat out of the critics against Ellen White, and to this day, these sound refutations have gone ignored.

I doubt giving you such resources will ever make you change your mind, and probably will go ignored without ever being thoroughly read, but I'm going to give you the links nonetheless:

http://www.ellenwhiteanswers.org/

Jud Lake's new book: "Ellen White Under Fire"

http://www.adventistbookcenter.com/Detail.tpl?sku=0816324085

A Response to the Video: Seventh-day Adventism, the Spirit Behind the Church (You can also purchase the hard-copy of the book for $10, even though the full book is online for free in this link below)

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/response-to-video-table-of-contents.htm

http://www.ellenwhite.info/

http://www.ellen-white.com (this website is currently being revamped, but stay tuned when it is back up, as the data will be dynamite)

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/issues.asp

http://www.ellenwhitedefend.com/Defense/Defending.htm

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt41.html#Truth%20Still%20Makes%20One%20Free

http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/egw.html

http://www.adventist-defense-league.blogspot.com/

And there are several more which I cannot remember off the top of my head.

I know you are not naturally inclined to take out the time to dig through these volumes and volumes of material, but nonetheless, at least I did my part by placing them at your fingertips. So you will never be able to say "I wasn't shown the other side!"

Blessings,

~Lysimachus

[miz3]

I see extreme divergence from very significant biblical truths being practiced by the SDA .... taking the teaching of EGW and considering it above the scriptures, and then scripture picking and force fitting selected scriptures out of context into the fabric of her established dogmas speaks of a controlled cult like religion

And the SDA is not alone in this prescription for creating a proprietary religion that boasts of the one and only organization that has a monopoly on truth .... many have come to do the same and the list is long

It is clear that I have issues with Truth Files, however what is said in the above quote is the all too often perception of SDA by those outside. Truth Files is also correct that SDA indeed by their practice and history have indeed shown the correctness of his words.

SDA face more and more challenging crises ahead because they are NOT LISTENING TO GOD WHEN HE SPEAKS!

Like the Jews of old the darker things get for them the more they think they are OBEYING GOD! When the Truth is they are drifting further and further away from God just as the Jewish Nation did long ago!

[Lysimachus]

It is clear that I have issues with Truth Files, however what is said in the above quote is the all too often perception of SDA by those outside. Truth Files is also correct that SDA indeed by their practice and history have indeed shown the correctness of his words.

SDA face more and more challenging crises ahead because they are NOT LISTENING TO GOD WHEN HE SPEAKS!

Like the Jews of old the darker things get for them the more they think they are OBEYING GOD! When the Truth is they are drifting further and further away from God just as the Jewish Nation did long ago!

There is much truth in what you are saying here miz3. Adventism as an organized body is indeed greatly drifting more and more away from God. This would be in their lifestyle, and their worldy compromises. But many times you seem to attribute this "drifting away" as something to do with their doctrines of the 2300 days, 70 weeks, the sanctuary message, and their upholding of Ellen White. But these are not the issues that are causing to drift.

If anything, it is losing SIGHT of these things that is causing them to drift!

Last year I attended a liberal SDA Church in California that never uses Ellen White. All they do is talk about "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Love Love Love", but never do they deal with any of the pillar doctrines of our faith. The pastor gets up in front and starts walking around without a pulpit like some evangelical preacher. The music had the young people swaying their arms, and the band had drums, and virtually ALL the women were filled with jewelry and makeup.

Look at the result of not ever using Ellen White. I was totally turned off by that Church. I thought I was sitting in a Pentecostal, tongues-preaching Church. A Church that has drifted away from preaching the pillar doctrines of our faith, and refuses to quote from Ellen White.

And it is happening to our Churches everywhere. Wherever Ellen White is less used, the Churches become WORSE.

That's just the bottom line. I've witnessed it enough to testify.

[Lysimachus]

Notice miz3. You say that we are drifting away from God because we are relying too much on Ellen White. Notice how she says the opposite of her writings:

Quote:

I am filled with sadness when I think of our condition as a people. The Lord has not closed heaven to us, but our own course of continual backsliding has separated us from God. Pride, covetousness, and love of the world have lived in the heart without fear of banishment or condemnation. Grievous and presumptuous sins have dwelt among us. And yet the general opinion is that the church is flourishing and that peace and spiritual prosperity are in all her borders.

The church has turned back from following Christ her Leader and is steadily retreating toward Egypt. Yet few are alarmed or astonished at their want of spiritual power. Doubt, and even disbelief of the testimonies of the Spirit of God, is leavening our churches everywhere. Satan would have it thus. Ministers who preach self instead of Christ would have it thus.The testimonies are unread and unappreciated. God has spoken to you. Light has been shining from His word and from the testimonies, and both have been slighted and disregarded. The result is apparent in the lack of purity and devotion and earnest faith among us. {5T 217}

[John317]

...

.... and I can post her very words related to what I have stated at this point about her and her associate's attempts to cover Miller's failed predictions .... and much more ... I could post things like the following all day long

.... but I am not sure that this would be fitting for the forum .... what do you think?

Yes, it would certainly be fitting to post any of Ellen White writings on this Forum. There are no writings of hers that would be unfitting. Everything she wrote-- including personal letters and diaries-- is open for the world to read and study. I don't think there's a single person who ever lived whose writings are so available to anyone. Her entire life is literally an open book. You could find out where she was and even what she was doing on practically any day of her adult life, and often that includes knowing what she ate and where she slept and where her husband was.

I'll give you an example.

Last year I wanted to know when Ellen White had a private meeting with my grandfather, who training to be an SDA minister at Heildsburg College in Northern California. I knew that he talked with her there at the college before she went over to Australia. So I went to the White Estate and I found out that she was at the college for a few days only a short time before she boarded the boat to Australia. I was even able to read the Sabbath sermon that she gave that week-end, a sermon I know my grandfather heard her deliver.

Ellen White wrote more words than any other woman alive, all by hand, and almost all of them were lifiting up Christ and strengthening people's trust in the Bible as God's word.

[John317]

...So tell me about this John317 .... and which side of the door are you on? ..... are you one without a mediator?

No, I'm not. Thank God we all have a mediator still.

Quote:

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil.

— The Great Controversy, chapter 24

Please let me remind you of what we said to each other:

Originally Posted By: Truth Files

Sorry, I don't buy EGW's ruse .... she made it up so that she could say that Miller's date for the second coming was in fact correct

.... no visible return to the earth, but another thing which she billed as the investigative judgment, which she alone claimed to discover

She even predicted when this investigation would be finished, the door would then be closed to any possible further saving of humans, and that the Lord would then return ..... and she limited the time frame to say that she expected Him before her own death

There is no scriptural basis for her ruse ....

Originally Posted By: John3:17

If you can prove from Ellen White's writings what you state above, I will agree with you and throw Ellen White in the trash.

So, now you have to prove from her writings that

1) She alone claimed to discover the Investigative Judgment;

2) She predicted (on the basis of a vision she claimed to have had) that no more human beings on earth would have a possibility of being saved.

If you can show these two things from her own writings, you will have proved to me that Ellen White was a fraud. Can you do it?

But if you fail to be able to show clear support from her writings for your accusations, will you agree that you should know her ministry and writings better-- and have your facts straight-- before you make such charges?

Your question about page 24 of The Great Controversy doesn't give evidence that Ellen White alone claimed to discover the Investigative Judgment.

I could easily answer your question-- and I will--- but isn't this additional question ignoring the accusation you made about Ellen White?

[John317]

...He feels that he needs proof of EGW's false prophecies, contradictions, and false teaching .... and if need be, I might consider posting her own writings and published statements for demonstration

Here are the only two questions you are being asked:

1) Did Ellen White alone claim to discover the Investigative Judgment?

2) Did Ellen White predict (on the basis of a vision she claimed to have had) that no more human beings on earth would have a possibility of being saved?

[John317]

...

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil.

— The Great Controversy, chapter 24

I'm sure you agree that Christ will not forever be our mediator. Soon Christ will put off His High Priestly garments and put on His kingly robes and will come as king and judge. Rev. 14: 14-16 and Rev. 19: 11-21 describes that time.

This statement in GC, then, concerns the end of human probation, a short period of time prior to the second coming of Christ.

Rev. 22: 11 refers to that time:

22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

All people alive at that time will be either sealed with the seal of God or they will have the mark of the beast. In other words, they will have made up their mind about God-- either having accepted Him and rejected Him. We are all deciding today and every day of our lives which side we will be on when that time comes.

Look at these passages of Scripture:

Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev. 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [i will write upon him] my new name.

Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Eccl. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and [my] fatlings [are] killed, and all things [are] ready: come unto the marriage.

22:5 But they made light of [it], and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated [them] spitefully, and slew [them].

22:7 But when the king heard [thereof], he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1:11 For so [thus] an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

[miz3]

There is much truth in what you are saying here miz3. Adventism as an organized body is indeed greatly drifting more and more away from God. This would be in their lifestyle, and their worldy compromises. But many times you seem to attribute this "drifting away" as something to do with their doctrines of the 2300 days, 70 weeks, the sanctuary message, and their upholding of Ellen White. But these are not the issues that are causing to drift.

If anything, it is losing SIGHT of these things that is causing them to drift!

Last year I attended a liberal SDA Church in California that never uses Ellen White. All they do is talk about "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Love Love Love", but never do they deal with any of the pillar doctrines of our faith. The pastor gets up in front and starts walking around without a pulpit like some evangelical preacher. The music had the young people swaying their arms, and the band had drums, and virtually ALL the women were filled with jewelry and makeup.

Look at the result of not ever using Ellen White. I was totally turned off by that Church. I thought I was sitting in a Pentecostal, tongues-preaching Church. A Church that has drifted away from preaching the pillar doctrines of our faith, and refuses to quote from Ellen White.

And it is happening to our Churches everywhere. Wherever Ellen White is less used, the Churches become WORSE.

That's just the bottom line. I've witnessed it enough to testify.

Well I guess we can agree on one thing! Our view of "liberal" SDA Churches.

However, I would respectfully disagree as to the cause!

1. Such liberals have seen in the past tight legalistic behaviors and damnation of those who so much as smidgin crossed the line set by the "brethren".

2. The historical "deification" by the "brethren" of Ellen White and then the damaging publications concerning the duplicity of Ellen White. In my day we were taught that Ellen White was "perfect" and it left the distinct impression that she could do no wrong!

We can sit here today and deny such things but they really did exist and they really were perceived by those in the pews. When such unrealistic attributes are attributed to any human being the reaction by the "liberal" types is predictable.

I know this because I have SDA family who has experienced this very culture!

So once we found out Ellen White was NOT PERFECT AS A HUMAN BEING, could then not her writings have mistakes in them as well. It is a natural response. This is why today the SOP is so much under attack.

We the SDA Church created that mess. No one else! The damage has been done and the Church will never, ever recover the true purpose God had in mind for Ellen White. She is not to fault, the Church, the "brethren" they are to fault.

Thus, when her defenders staunchly defend her "inerrency" they are seen as unreasonable fanatics who are control freaks. Unfortunately these defenders in some cases actually are control freaks and power hungry! The damage just gets worse and worse!

3. I also believe the reason for such splits in the SDA Church is the intransigent nature of the "brethren" in regard to Truth (Biblical Truth). The "brethren" have for so long tried to maintain a stability and a unity within SDAism that any words even slightly off the "company line" is met with severe punishment!

Such happenings began around the beginning of the 20th Century. I know of people who were fired from SDA Work because they wore "wedding rings" and would not take them off. I know pew sitters who were "disfellowshiped" for wearing the "wedding band". Then all of a sudden in the 1980's SDA workers were sent a letter from the GC saying that all of a sudden it was not a sin to "wear the wedding band". Yet before it was a "Cardinal Sin" and the bodies of those who did not comply litter the historical landscape.

Yes "jewelry" was a set in stone doctrine! It was considered sin to wear the "wedding band".

This sudden change by the "brethren" in regard for the wedding band brings into question, "what else have SDA been hiding that is really not a sin". Our "liberal" brothers and sisters had a field day!

Turns out that some European wives working at the GC were allowed to keep there "wedding bands" because in Europe unlike North American SDA were allowed to keep their "wedding bands".

The NA woman saw the duplicity of this and questioned the GC. Having no good answers the GC (GC woman can be a powerful lobby especially where their husbands are concerned) caved.

The Jewelry Issue was considered a long standing Doctrine of the SDA Church in North America almost since its inception as a Church. In fact it was taught that this issue had Biblical and SOP support. Ellen White was constantly quoted concerning this issue.

So you see the SDA Church is in crisis because of the Spiritual Condition and the Doctrines that have been forced down people's throats. It is indeed a crisis of the Church's own making.

4. This is one of the reasons I post the way I do! I believe SDA ought to be sure of their ground so that SDA do not suffer as we have suffered in the past. A past which has most assuredly split the SDA Church into many splinters.

SDA have for so long taken for granted that the established Doctrines, Ellen White, the cultural mores, etc of the Church have been well established only to find out later that such Doctrines, Ellen White, our history, our cultural etc. is riveted with huge enormous holes.

Thus, if we doggedly and stubbornly cling to our past inordinately as we have done we are doomed.

In my opinion we need an honest house cleaning in all the areas I have described. We need to challenge all our own assumptions and not be sloppy and think, like with the jewelery doctrine, that we can merrily go on our way and God will bless in spite of our warts. God will not!

This SDA Church is being punished by God because it has not been faithful to Him!

My personal opinion is that this apostasy began around the turn of the twentieth century!

In my opinion it is not being more forceful in regard to "conservative SDAism" that will cure our ills but it is necessary to have a top to bottom overhaul. That does not mean that "everything goes automatically in the garbage bin"!

NO! NO! NO!

It means we once again gathering together and studying the Bible and the Bible only to see what exactly the Truth is! No agendas, no politics, but rather clean honest hearts praying for wisdom from God who is not pleased with the way we do our business. That means confessing our individual sins (mostly in private) but also confessing our corporate sins as well (publicly together).

A sort of "upper room experience".

Such an undertaking would have to be scrupulously honest and transparent! No game playing, no politics, no hidden agenda, no power stacking, etc.

The question is, is the SDA Church up for this challenge.

I am trying to do my part here on this forum.

All can see the opposition, game playing etc. that takes place against me on this website because people have cherished views which they will not relent. They hate to have their cherished Doctrines challenged. Yet this is the only way we can cleanse ourselves. Unfortunately, this is the environment we must deal with here on this website and in the SDA Church, as well as the sinful World!

GOD HELP US!

[John317]

Those EGW quotes are definitely worth posting again. We need to get those thoughts burned into our consciousness until we won't ever forget them.

[John317]

Ezekiel

38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him

The Lord addresses "gog" in Ezekiel 38 and 39 with respect to Israel's return to the land of Israel at the end of this present age

The vision begins by addressing satan and his early involvement with the post flood inhabitants of the land area of Magog, son of Japheth, and his brothers [Genesis 10:1-2]

Careful study of Ezekiel's vision and other related scriptures are necessary in order to identify gog [satan] and his involvement with humanity over a very broad time frame

This includes his connection to both the spirit world, human kings, and the human organizations contained within the dominions of the human kings and their kingdoms

There are some identifiers and other links to be considered which will lead to the realization that gog is not human

This entity has angelic characteristics which can be determined by studying the identifiers and the links given in scripture

Gog is identified by other biblical prophets as being connected with different human rulers, in different geographical areas, at different times, over periods which exceed the limitations of human life span [Ezekiel 38:17]

The Lord's angelic creatures do not age and are the same today as they were at their creation in the beginning

This angelic trait allows for perpetual involvement over vast time periods [Job 38:4-7; Ezekiel 28:11-19; Revelation 20:1-3]

He notes that gog is a subject of many of the prophets, yet he is referred to as "gog" in only one other place in scripture .... in the 20th chapter of the book of Revelation

This must mean that he is identified by different profiles and agencies in the visions of the other prophets [Ezekiel 38:17]

All other references refer to him or his agents by some other name or title. For example, Daniel sees the "prince that is to come" [Abaddon-Apollyon] in the little horn [a human king]

Both of these entities will be empowered and directed by satan [Daniel 7:7; 8:9-12; 8:25-25; 11:36-45; 12:7; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 17:8]

Gog is described as the chief angelic prince, in this case, of Mesheck and Tubal [the early post flood settlements of Magog's brothers]

The term "prince" is generally applied to an angelic ruler in prophetic scripture who rules over, influences, and operates through human kings [horns] [Ezekiel 38:2]

The term "chief prince" indicates that gog is the ruler or leader of others of the same kind

The Hebrew word "rosh" used for "chief" is not in reference to "Russia" as some teach, but should be translated as "chief" or "head" prince. [Revelation 12:3-4; 12:9]

The title of "prince" is revealed to Daniel in describing angelic activity related to the archangel Michael's battle against the opposing forces of the princes of Persia and of Grecia [Daniel 10:13-20]

The title of prince is used by the Lord when addressing the human king of Tyre

The message goes beyond the king to another entity [satan] who apparently has interaction and control over the king [Ezekiel 28:11-19]

Isaiah contains references addressed to the prince of Babylon and to Lucifer

These are descriptions of satan's existence as an angelic being and his connection and influence with humanity [isaiah 14:12-17]

_

I am in basic agreement with the above, although I don't believe Gog is a name for Satan. I believe Gog is a name the prophet made up in order to represent the future enemy of God's people. It most likely stands for the wicked people who are united against God's people at the end of the world. Your idea that it is Satan is very interesting and is certainly worth studying.

I'll be back in the morning (Tuesday) to write more about this.

By the way, here is Ellen White's only use of the name "Gog"--

Quote:

And I saw, that as Christ is the vine, and his children the branches: so Satan is the "root", and his children are the "branches;" and at the final destruction of "Gog and Magog," the whole wicked host will be burnt up, "root and branch," and cease to exist. Then will appear the new heaven and the new earth. Then will the saints "build houses," and "plant vineyards." I saw, that all the righteous dead were raised by the voice of the Son of God, at the first resurrection; and all that were raised at the second resurrection, were burnt up, and ceased to exist. {WLF 12.1}

[John317]

2. The historical "deification" by the "brethren" of Ellen White and then the damaging publications concerning the duplicity of Ellen White. In my day we were taught that Ellen White was "perfect" and it left the distinct impression that she could do no wrong!

What's important to realize is that your experience and view of Ellen White and of the so-called "duplicity" of Ellen White is not the view and experience of most SDAs.

I grew up in the SDA church, and I was never taught that Ellen White was "perfect" and not in need of God's grace and forgiveness.

Were mistakes made by some people in their communciation about Ellen White? Certainly. People make mistakes. But you shouldn't blame Ellen White or other SDAs who never had anything to do with such wrong views, and that is what it seems to me you are doing.

You come off as an angry person who is out to punish other SDAs for your bitterness or anger. All that does is place you in the position of helping the Accuser of the Brethren.

Ask yourself if you are really helping people to draw closer to Christ and prepare for the return of Christ for His church. Are you doing these things yourself? Are you helping people to have a greater understanding and appreciation of the Testimonies of the Spirit of God? Or are you helping to tear them down?

Everything else is really secondary.

[John317]

....All can see the opposition, game playing etc. that takes place against me on this website because people have cherished views which they will not relent. They hate to have their cherished Doctrines challenged. Yet this is the only way we can cleanse ourselves. Unfortunately, this is the environment we must deal with here on this website and in the SDA Church, as well as the sinful World!

The problem is that you apparently see yourself in the position of a "cleanser." But isn't that the role of the Holy Spirit?

It's good to be challenged in terms of one's beliefs and convictions, but you do this "challenging" in a way that makes you look as if you aren't doing it from the viewpoint of a strong Christian who loves people and wants to see Christ's truth triumph. Instead, you do it as if you hate the SDA church, the doctrines, and the leaders.

Can't you see it has nothing to do with "hating to have their cherished Doctrines challenged"? It has to do with the fact that you give the impression that you have a hatred of the doctrines and of anyone who believes in them. At the same time you appear not to have a complete grasp of either the doctrines or of SDA history.

An idea: can you figure out a way to get people to enjoy having their favorite doctrines challenged? Believe it or not, it isn't that hard. Most people don't want to believe in false teachings so if it is done right, they will welcome a way of seeing if their beliefs are true or not. It is all in the way you approach it.

Put yourself in their shoes. Would you like to have your ideas and beliefs challenged by someone who makes it obvious he doesn't like you and has no respect for your views? How do you respond to such a person? On other hand, how do you respond to people who challenge you in a way that shows you they care about you and are interested in your thoughts?

[Truth Files]

[Words here edited by the moderator.]

So tell me about Ezekiel 38; 39 and how this vision fits with SDA theology ... one with your knowledge and experience should be able to do this

For example; is the vision to be taken literally, is it of events of the past or future, is it still valid in your opinion since you believe that the Lord is finished with Israel as a nation, and who are the subjects of the vision in your opinion?

[miz3]

What's important realize is that your experience and view of Ellen White and of the so-called "duplicity" of Ellen White is not the view and experience of most SDAs.

I grew up in the SDA church, and I was never taught that Ellen White was "perfect" and not in need of God's grace and forgiveness.

Were mistakes made by some people in their communciation about Ellen White? Certainly. People make mistakes. But you shouldn't blame Ellen White or other SDAs who never had anything to do with such wrong views, and that is what it seems to me you are doing.

You come off as an angry person who is out to punish other SDAs for your bitterness or anger. All that does is place you in the position of helping the Accuser of the Brethren.

Ask yourself if you are really helping people to draw closer to Christ and prepare for the return of Christ for His church. Are you doing these things yourself? Are you helping people to have a greater understanding and appreciation of the Testimonies of the Spirit of God? Or are you helping to tear them down?

That may have been your experience! However where you are wrong is in the "experience of most SDAs". That is simply not the fact! If that were the fact then we would not see the large number of Independent ministries, the wide ranging views of Doctrine, the "worldliness" that is self-evident in the Church, the views of the Church among the SDA Youth, the exodus of young people from the Church, on and on we could go!

Each day more and more young see the duplicity of the Church and have less and less confidence. As do many adults in the Church and outside the Church!

The "youth" hear what the "brethren" are saying, but they see that their deeds are far from the words. Our schools are badly mismanaged and that is why they are dying and some are closing their doors even as we speak!

They are not closing their doors because of some "mark of the beast" persecution and the "image to the beast" making laws impossible for us to follow.

NO! They are closing their doors because of the Church's duplicity and the Church's mismanagement by the "brethren". The Church is destroying itself.

If what you say is true, then there would be no reason for this website!

Your attempts to make this "personal" about me is not an argument in favor a your views. Nor is it an argument against my views. This discussion is not about me. This particular strain of this thread is about the General Condition of the SDA Church. A condition which you do not want to face fully! John317 it is very evident that you are deathly afraid that your view of what the SDA Church "should" be is slipping away and you long for the days when the "brethren" had lock cinch on the Church!

You are entitled to your views but I can guarantee the SDA Church will never, ever be like it was before! It is already too late for that. The SDA Church is in "Crisis" because of her past sins. You do not even acknowledge those sins and when you do acknowledge some thing you claim it was only a small indiscretion and not a major item. As long as we do not face the Truth about ourselves we are doomed to get deeper and deeper in the mire. That will only make things worse!

Whether you or I like it the SDA Church is changing and will continue to evolve. It will never ever be the same Church it once was! Where we go in the future depends entirely on what we are willing to face in view of the crises that now currently attend us and the crises that will surely come. Mark my words!

[miz3]

The problem is that you apparently see yourself in the position of a "cleanser." But isn't that the role of the Holy Spirit?

It's good to be challenged in terms of one's beliefs and convictions, but you do this "challenging" in a way that makes you look as if you aren't doing it from the viewpoint of a strong Christian who loves people and wants to see Christ's truth triumph. Instead, you do it as if you hate the SDA church, the doctrines, and the leaders.

Can't you see it has nothing to do with "hating to have their cherished Doctrines challenged"? It has to do with the fact that you give the impression that you have a hatred of the doctrines and of anyone who believes in them. At the same time you appear not to have a complete grasp of either the doctrines or of SDA history.

An idea: can you figure out a way to get people to enjoy having their favorite doctrines challenged? Believe it or not, it isn't that hard. Most people don't want to believe in false teachings so if it is done right, they will welcome a way of seeing if their beliefs are true or not. It is all in the way you approach it.

Put yourself in their shoes. Would you like to have your ideas and beliefs challenged by someone who makes it obvious he doesn't like you and has no respect for your views? How do you respond to such a person? On other hand, how do you respond to people who challenge you in a way that shows you they care about you and are interested in your thoughts?

You keep wanting to make the issue about me. It is NOT about me, it is about the crisis in the SDA Church!

You also talk about "challenging with love". Have you read the Words of Jeremiah! Was Jeremiah "loved" because he challenged the "church" of his day!

John317, this comeback about "challenge me with love" is just a tactic to get the other person to "soften" the truthful point of their words. It is also a way to put the other person in a bad light. The fact is I have "challenged you with love! What is baffling is that I don't feel you love me back.

No offense intended but are you trying to put me in a bad light, John317? Why is this so personal with you? Why are you trying to goad me into being personal back?

Again, no offense meant but truly I feel very unloved by you John317. I don't feel welcome here! Am I not welcome here John317?

I care about you, John317!

I care about you enough to want you to know the Truth! Why do you resist the Truth, John317? Why are you protecting your "cherished" views and not willing to listen to the clear Words of Scripture?

Couldn't you discuss your personal feelings about me and my motives in a PM? Would that be more appropriate, John317?

[skyblue888]

Mrs. White said that the trials of the children of Israel and their attitude just before the first coming of Christ were presented before her again and again to illustrate the position of the people of God (adventists) in their experience before the second coming of Christ--how the enemy sought every occasion to take control of the minds of the Jews, and today he is seeking to blind the minds of God's servants that they may not be able to discern the precious truth! See 1 S.M.406.

That says an awful lot, does it not?

In other words, "The Lord has declared that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing work." 2 S.M.390.

So what miz3 is saying goes right along with these statements.

sky

It would be interesting to study what was the "attitude" of the Jews just before the first coming of Christ.

For one thing, at the time of Jesus' birth, Mrs. White was shown that the Jews, whom God had called to be the pillar and ground of the truth, had become the representatives of Satan! See D.A.36.

In the book Testimonies to Ministers, p.366, we read about how Satan's methods are practiced even among Seventh-day Adventists, who claim to have advanced truth.

[John317]

"Ellen White wrote more words than any other woman alive, all by hand, and almost all of them were lifiting up Christ and strengthening people's trust in the Bible as God's word"

.... and a very large portion of her writings which she claimed to be of her own were not .... this behavior is unacceptable for one who claims to be a conduit for the Lord

What percentage of the writings of Ellen White are "borrowed" from other people's writings?

Are you aware that the writers of the Gospels "borrowed" from each other?

Ellen White did not do anything in this way that was not accepted during her lifetime. This has been shown by an attorney who specializes in this area of the law.

However, none of this gives the answers that I asked you for in response to your allegations against Ellen White.