Who is Gog?

[John317]

It won't work here. If this continues, and no proof of the truth of the allegations is provided, all of this posters posts on the topic will be deleted. This is not a place where people can come and freely post whatever they like about the church and about Ellen White and expect not to be held accountable. If they can prove what they say, that is one thing; but it is totally different to post unsubstantiated accusations against whole groups of people and against those who are sleeping in Jesus. There are enough of such places on the Internet already.

[miz3]

John317,

I know you are going to be angry with me for saying this but:

PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS SAYING AND POSTING UNSUBSTANTIATED THINGS ON THIS WEBSITE!

If someone makes "unsubstantiated" claims then we can call it that. However, shouldn't we have the right to make silly assertions if we want?

If we call them on it then others can judge for themselves whether it is true or not!

[John317]

That is a little bit like a person's who's been pulled over by the cops complaining that millions of people speed.

Should a cop allow everyone to speed since he can't give a ticket to every speeder?

I can't possibly hold everyone on the Forum to account for violating the rules, but that doesn't mean I should just forget the rules.

[miz3]

John317,

OK! Your the boss here!

I think letting people freely spout reveals the Truth to those who are really seeking it. That is my opinion. Your view is what counts, I guess.

[John317]

John317,

I know you are going to be angry with me for saying this...

Naw, I don't get angry that easily. I promised myself if I found myself getting angry at people and letting the things on the Forum get me personally, I would quit. I enjoy myself here.

I worked for over 21 years in a State Mental Hospital and with Juvenile Delinquents, and for most of it I was all by myself on units with over 30 "clients" for 10 hours at a time.

No comparison, at least not too much. :-)

[jasd]

>>...the Bible does not support a "heptad".<<

I've seen this same concern run across several threads...

"heptad" is but an inflection from a family of like words whose meanings in one way or another indicate the number '7' - or one of its forms. It even provides the basis for 'Septuagint'.

"heptad" means simply - a group of 7 - a week, for instance.

Those using it here have taken it from the Greek Septuagint of the OT. So, it is Biblical - except that it is Greek Biblical.

Don't wrap this in cellophane and attempt to sell it; I'm extemporizing

[John317]

John317,

I think letting people freely spout reveals the Truth to those who are really seeking it.

That's true up to a point. But there are some subjects and some circumstances where it can't be.

[John317]

So tell me about Ezekiel 38; 39 and how this vision fits with SDA theology ... one with your knowledge and experience should be able to do this

For example; is the vision to be taken literally, is it of events of the past or future, is it still valid in your opinion since you believe that the Lord is finished with Israel as a nation, and who are the subjects of the vision in your opinion?

No, not literally, and the events are of the future. The chapters 38, 39 are describing attacks against God's people in the end-time, just before the second coming of Christ, and again after the resurrection of the wicked at the end of the one thousand years (Rev. 20: 8).

Gog and Magog are references to the combined forces of evil-- who are led by Satan-- in their attack against God's people. This appears to be supported by Rev. 20: 8. Those forces, including Satan himself, will be utterly defeated.I don't believe we should look for anyone whose name is "Gog" or "Magog." I believe the evidence shows that these are prophecies that would have been literally fulfilled if the nation of Israel had accepted the Messiah and obeyed God, but since phyiscal Israel rejected the Messiah, the prophecy will be fulfilled spiritually in the church.

I believe the following verses show the fulfillment of the prophecy:

2 Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev. 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.

19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Compare Rev. 19: 17 with Ezekiel 39: 4--

39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that [is] with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and [to] the beasts of the field to be devoured.

[Truth Files]

Can't by your interpretation

"Gog and Magog are references to the combined forces of evil-- who are led by Satan-- in their attack against God's people

There is no allegory in this vision as you seem to suggest .... it is a literal account of a future event still pending [has never taken place in the past] .... and there ae many other prophetic scriptures that confirm the same

Tell how "god's people" are describe in the vision, where they are located, and what they will do

[Lysimachus]

Can't by your interpretation

"Gog and Magog are references to the combined forces of evil-- who are led by Satan-- in their attack against God's people

There is no allegory in this vision as you seem to suggest .... it is a literal account of a future event still pending [has never taken place in the past] .... and there ae many other prophetic scriptures that confirm the same

Tell how "god's people" are describe in the vision, where they are located, and what they will do

It is not symbolically described in Ezekiel, but it is in Revelation. Revelation lifts Ezekiel out of it's typical, local, literal application, and redefines it in an antitypical, global, spiritual application.

[Truth Files]

"It is not symbolically described in Ezekiel, but it is in Revelation. Revelation lifts Ezekiel out of it's typical, local, literal application, and redefines it in an antitypical, global, spiritual application"

>I see the big selective allegorical switch in the above statement .... literal in one place, and spiritual in another

>Better read and believe this [Revelation 1:1-19; 4:1]

[Lysimachus]

"It is not symbolically described in Ezekiel, but it is in Revelation. Revelation lifts Ezekiel out of it's typical, local, literal application, and redefines it in an antitypical, global, spiritual application"

>I see the big selective allegorical switch in the above statement .... literal in one plac,e and spiritual in another

>Better read and believe this [Revelation 1:1-19; 4:1]

There is a difference between allegorization and symbolization. Symbols actually stand for something that is literally true. Allegorization does not allow for symbols that stand for literal things. It is nothing more than just that, an "allegory" to teach a lesson, no more than a parable. And parables are not true stories.

Revelation is a true story. But it is "SIGNIFIED" as Revelation 1:1 clearly says. "and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his unto his servant John."

You better read that verse over and over and over again before you attempt to go on and literalistically apply all that which is described to John after.

[John317]

>I see the big selective allegorical switch in the above statement ...

No allegory here.

A comparison of verses in Rev. 19 with Ezekiel 38, 39 shows that they are concerning the same events.

For example:

Ezekiel 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that [is] with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and [to] the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Rev. 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.

19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

[Truth Files]

All of there symbols of prophetic wrote are described literally .... either in the immediate context, or in other scriptures

[John317]

What you are either forgetting or neglecting to consider is the fact that after the end of its probationary period, the 490 years, physical Israel is no longer God's designated people. All of the prophecies that would have been fulfilled literally if Israel had accepted the Messiah and fulfilled God's plan as described in Daniel 9: 25, are now to be fulfilled in the church. God only has one plan of redemption. Literal Jews, of course, can be saved, but it is through faith in Christ under the New Covenant, the same as for non-Jews.

Among many other Bible passages, Paul shows this in Galatians 3: 26-29:

3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And:

Col. 3:10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

And:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[Truth Files]

"What you are either forgetting or neglecting to consider is the fact that after the end of its probationary period, the 490 years, physical Israel is no longer God's designated people"

>No, I understand what you believe ..... but I don't

>So there is no good reason to discuss the offsetting views in play here

>Israel is still His nation .... He say so Himself .... over and over

>And one day you will know this with no doubt ..... whether you think so or nor

>None of these examples are His nation of Israel today: RCC, SDA, JW, Mormon, Shephard's Chapel, WGC, liberal protestant, MSOG movements, etc..... all claim the title and position for themselves exclusive of any of the others .... all are wrong on this issue

[Lysimachus]

"What you are either forgetting or neglecting to consider is the fact that after the end of its probationary period, the 490 years, physical Israel is no longer God's designated people"

>No I understand what you believe ..... but I don't

>So there is no good reason to discuss the offsetting views

>Israel is still His nation .... He say so Himself

>And one day you will know this with no doubt ..... whether you think so or nor

>None of these examples are His nation of Israel today: RCC, SDA, JW, Mormon, Shephard's Chapel, WGC, liberal protestant, MSOG movements, etc..... all claim the title and position for themselves exclusive of any of the others .... all are wrong on this issue

[John317]

>None of these examples are His nation of Israel today: RCC, SDA, JW, Mormon, Shephard's Chapel, WGC, liberal protestant, MSOG movements, etc..... all claim the title and position for themselves exclusive of any of the others .... all are wrong on this issue

You are wrong to say that SDAs-- that is the SDA Church-- claim the title and position of "God's people" exclusive to all other people.

You're misunderstanding the position of the SDA Church. We believe that at this time God has honest and sincere people in all churches, not excepting the RRC. So we do not claim to be the only people of God. Being one of God's people is not simply by becoming a member of a church. It's a matter of the mind and heart, whether one is truly committed to Christ and His truth. Some members of the SDA church, then, may not be in the truest sense of the word one of God's people.

[Lysimachus]

You are right John317, true SDA's believe that God's people are found everywhere throughout the globe, regardless of denominational background. God's true faithful are those who love Him and keep His commandments. And if true SDA's happen to line up with this Biblical description of God's end-time remnant, than so be it. :)

[John317]

Amen! That's a very important distinction.

[John317]

...

>Israel is still His nation .... He say so Himself .... over and over

What then do you do with the following verses:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

And what did God mean when He told literal Israel:

9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Did God not tell Israel that they had 70 weeks (490 yeas) in which to do the things described?

Did God mean what He said?

And what is the significance of Christ's own words:

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

[teresaq]

>Israel is still His nation .... He say so Himself .... over and over

Deu 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

[John317]

Deu 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

Exactly. God's promises and threatenings are alike conditional. Consider the book of Jonah and God's threatenings against Niniveh.

We also see this same principle clearly expressed in Ezekiel 3: 18-21:

3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Look also at Deut. 28: 1, 15, 63-- the blessings and the curses, all conditional on the basis of Israel's relationship and faithfulness to God.

[John317]

...>Israel is still His nation .... He say so Himself .... over and over

>And one day you will know this with no doubt ..... whether you think so or nor

What do you believe will be the next events that will prove what you are saying?

The events over in modern Israel are a diversion from the really important things of God. Our eyes should be on the spreading of the gospel through the church, and on the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, rather than on what's going on in the modern state of Israel.

I believe Satan wants us to focus all our attention on worldly things and worldly politics and on taking sides in worldly conflicts. But those things are not what's most important. What's most important is our relationship with Christ our High Priest and following by faith His atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Christ is concerned with the church and with people (including Jews) learning of the gospel, not with the state of Israel.

[Truth Files]

The Lord has not revealed the dating of His intervention

The only thing one can know about the events of the 70th week is that which is recorded in the prophetic scriptures

This will be the first notable event of the Lord's judgment upon the earth, and all of the earth dwellers will know without a doubt that His judgment has come [Revelation 6:12-17]

Could happen before this day is over