Who is Gog?

[John317]

...She said that the door of salvation was closed in 1844 and then she changed her position .... she made several further predictions related to the Lord's second advent and all were wrong .... this behavior is not the reflection of one who is directly inspired by receiving visions from the Lord

You'll need to prove these allegations.

Have you read 1 SM 62-64? She speaks to this issue. Study it and let me know what you think.

You are only adding to your allegations, without giving evidence for them or for the previous allegations. Why are you doing this?

[John317]

The truly inspired preacher, teacher, and messenger of the Lord does not do these things and EGW's behavior was way over the top, particularly with her ambition to create a body of theology that lacks reflection of biblical truth in so many ways

What things, specifically?

Can you prove that Ellen White had an "ambition to create a body of theology"?

Did she ever claim to be a theologian?

There is nothing wrong with saying things that you might disagree with or think are not "biblical truth". She never claimed to be writing to please people or make them think she was a theologian. That was not her goal or even her desire.

It looks like you need to create a discussion just for your purpose of proving your accusations and allegations. But please answer my two original questions here before returning to the main topic of the discussion.

[Truth Files]

Let's drop the dialogue about EGW at this point .... there is no value in it here

That is not my objective and I would have never said anything about it if I had not been confronted with SDA members ..... some of them in very caustic attack mode .... and I know what causes this behavior

It is alomst always from those who do not feel confident with what they believe and so they must defend by argumentation and criticism [i see this all over the message boards on the Internet] .... those who are well grounded in the Lord's Word have no need to do the same

I am here to share the visions of the Bible prophets from my perspective

And I have to tell you that it is hard for me to believe that you have not discovered EGW's record of copying materials and claiming ownership, making predictions which did not come to pass, and inventing and re-inventing her stories when her claims did not materialize

These are the signs of one who teaches falsehood and her entire body of theology, which you say she did not have a hand in creating, and which you adhere to, is a total sham in my opinion

You will believe what you want I am certain and this is your choosing, but I will tell you that I see an enirely different presentation given by the Lord's own Word on some very fundamental principles of truth than EGW

Does it make any difference? .... I think it does, there are dangers and pit falls for those who follow a false teacher and a false prophet .... but all will be accountable to the Lord for their own behavior in the end

There is a way that seems right to a man that will only bring him death

[ClubV12]

It's a Seventh-day Adventist based web site. Of course you will encounter EGW quotes, there is no reason to "drop them" for you or anybody else. You start thread after thread of your ridiculous interpretations of scripture and then cry out because some don't agree with you. You openly attack and critized the Lords messenger, you attack the very foundation of the SDA fundamental beliefs. We have a DUTY to meet this head on, call sin by it's right name. As adamantly as you claim the SDA beliefs to be null and void, so you will receive the same. Surely, you would expect nothing else?

Whew,,, if you can't take the heat, feel free to leave the kitchen!

There is a way that seems right to a man that will only bring him death. AMEN to that!

[John317]

Let's drop the dialogue about EGW at this point .... there is no value in it here

That is not my objective and I would have never said anything about it if I had not been confronted with SDA members ....

You go by the name of "Truth Files." You made claims that Ellen White made up the Investigative Judgment and that she said she alone discovered that teaching.

You also claimed that Ellen White predicted on the basis of her visions that no more humans on earth would be saved.

Are you saying now that you can't prove these claims?

Since you evidently can't show the proof of these false claims about Ellen White, can you at least acknowledge that you are wrong to make the allegations? Or perhaps that you may have spoken too hastily? Or that you should have studied more before making the statements?

Do you think that Club Adventist ought to keep those posts, even though they say unkind things you can't show to be true?

[Lysimachus]

Well I guess we can agree on one thing! Our view of "liberal" SDA Churches.

However, I would respectfully disagree as to the cause!

1. Such liberals have seen in the past tight legalistic behaviors and damnation of those who so much as smidgin crossed the line set by the "brethren".

2. The historical "deification" by the "brethren" of Ellen White and then the damaging publications concerning the duplicity of Ellen White. In my day we were taught that Ellen White was "perfect" and it left the distinct impression that she could do no wrong!

We can sit here today and deny such things but they really did exist and they really were perceived by those in the pews. When such unrealistic attributes are attributed to any human being the reaction by the "liberal" types is predictable.

I know this because I have SDA family who has experienced this very culture!

So once we found out Ellen White was NOT PERFECT AS A HUMAN BEING, could then not her writings have mistakes in them as well. It is a natural response. This is why today the SOP is so much under attack.

We the SDA Church created that mess. No one else! The damage has been done and the Church will never, ever recover the true purpose God had in mind for Ellen White. She is not to fault, the Church, the "brethren" they are to fault.

Thus, when her defenders staunchly defend her "inerrency" they are seen as unreasonable fanatics who are control freaks. Unfortunately these defenders in some cases actually are control freaks and power hungry! The damage just gets worse and worse!

3. I also believe the reason for such splits in the SDA Church is the intransigent nature of the "brethren" in regard to Truth (Biblical Truth). The "brethren" have for so long tried to maintain a stability and a unity within SDAism that any words even slightly off the "company line" is met with severe punishment!

Such happenings began around the beginning of the 20th Century. I know of people who were fired from SDA Work because they wore "wedding rings" and would not take them off. I know pew sitters who were "disfellowshiped" for wearing the "wedding band". Then all of a sudden in the 1980's SDA workers were sent a letter from the GC saying that all of a sudden it was not a sin to "wear the wedding band". Yet before it was a "Cardinal Sin" and the bodies of those who did not comply litter the historical landscape.

Yes "jewelry" was a set in stone doctrine! It was considered sin to wear the "wedding band".

This sudden change by the "brethren" in regard for the wedding band brings into question, "what else have SDA been hiding that is really not a sin". Our "liberal" brothers and sisters had a field day!

Turns out that some European wives working at the GC were allowed to keep there "wedding bands" because in Europe unlike North American SDA were allowed to keep their "wedding bands".

The NA woman saw the duplicity of this and questioned the GC. Having no good answers the GC (GC woman can be a powerful lobby especially where their husbands are concerned) caved.

The Jewelry Issue was considered a long standing Doctrine of the SDA Church in North America almost since its inception as a Church. In fact it was taught that this issue had Biblical and SOP support. Ellen White was constantly quoted concerning this issue.

So you see the SDA Church is in crisis because of the Spiritual Condition and the Doctrines that have been forced down people's throats. It is indeed a crisis of the Church's own making.

4. This is one of the reasons I post the way I do! I believe SDA ought to be sure of their ground so that SDA do not suffer as we have suffered in the past. A past which has most assuredly split the SDA Church into many splinters.

SDA have for so long taken for granted that the established Doctrines, Ellen White, the cultural mores, etc of the Church have been well established only to find out later that such Doctrines, Ellen White, our history, our cultural etc. is riveted with huge enormous holes.

Thus, if we doggedly and stubbornly cling to our past inordinately as we have done we are doomed.

In my opinion we need an honest house cleaning in all the areas I have described. We need to challenge all our own assumptions and not be sloppy and think, like with the jewelery doctrine, that we can merrily go on our way and God will bless in spite of our warts. God will not!

This SDA Church is being punished by God because it has not been faithful to Him!

My personal opinion is that this apostasy began around the turn of the twentieth century!

In my opinion it is not being more forceful in regard to "conservative SDAism" that will cure our ills but it is necessary to have a top to bottom overhaul. That does not mean that "everything goes automatically in the garbage bin"!

NO! NO! NO!

It means we once again gathering together and studying the Bible and the Bible only to see what exactly the Truth is! No agendas, no politics, but rather clean honest hearts praying for wisdom from God who is not pleased with the way we do our business. That means confessing our individual sins (mostly in private) but also confessing our corporate sins as well (publicly together).

A sort of "upper room experience".

Such an undertaking would have to be scrupulously honest and transparent! No game playing, no politics, no hidden agenda, no power stacking, etc.

The question is, is the SDA Church up for this challenge.

I am trying to do my part here on this forum.

All can see the opposition, game playing etc. that takes place against me on this website because people have cherished views which they will not relent. They hate to have their cherished Doctrines challenged. Yet this is the only way we can cleanse ourselves. Unfortunately, this is the environment we must deal with here on this website and in the SDA Church, as well as the sinful World!

GOD HELP US!

I understand what you are saying, and where you are coming from, but regardless, just because some conservatives may exercise an un-Christlike deportment and attitude in shoving certain ideas down our throats is no excuse to swing the pendulum to the opposite direction and start being rebellious. Such individuals will be held accountable to God for their own decisions, and will be able to blame no one else.

In my estimation, those who rebel and go the opposite direction simply because certain fanatical principles were forced down their throats only reveal that it was not in their hearts to do what is right. We must weigh things reasonably and with common sense, and be able to discern and strive for true "balance".

As for me, I am against the wedding ring/band myself. However, I am not in favor of those who slam these ideas down people's throats. Instead, their hearts should be won, and they should be treated like everyone else, with love, kindness, sympathy, and helping them to see Jesus. The more we help them to reflect upon the character of Christ, the more they will naturally be impressed to shed such ornaments as defined in 1 Peter 3:3,4 and 1 Timothy 2:9--but it will come from a personal conviction, from themselves, and not someone having to tell them "Take those off!". Such an attitude toward these individuals will incur more harm than good, and will bring injury to the cause of God.

God wants to win people's hearts. He does not want involuntary submission based on "dos" and "don'ts". The "dos and don'ts" will only be a result of a transformed heart, not the other way around.

But I sand by my ground, the wrong "methods" employed of pushing certain Biblical or conservative ideas down our throats is no excuse to disqualify them. Instead, we should be mature and sensible enough to ask ourselves the following question:

"While brother or sister so and so has come across very strong, unloving, and judgment, is perhaps what he/she is saying concerning my lifestyle correct?"

That is the spirit we must exercise!

Disqualifying what they are telling us on the basis of their methodology will not stand in favor of your case on Judgment Day.

Sincerely,

~Lysimachus

[John317]

I agree, Lysimachus.

I think we have to remember that God is still leading and in charge. It's really important that we not join in doing wrong because of the wrongs we believe others have done. God can never excuse that.

[miz3]

Could Truth Files be referring to the following concerning the "shut door"?

The " Shut Door" Defined

It is claimed that these expressions prove the shut-door doctrine, and that this is the reason of their omission in later editions. But in fact they teach only that which has been and is still held by us as a people, as I shall show.

63

{1SM 62.4}

For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position. {1SM 63.1}

I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents. {1SM 63.2}

There was a shut door in Noah's day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the Flood. God Himself gave the shut-door message to Noah: {1SM 63.3}

"My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years" (Gen. 6:3). {1SM 63.4}

There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot, with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven. {1SM 63.5}

There was a shut door in Christ's day. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, "Your house is left unto you desolate" (Matt. 23:38). {1SM 63.6}

Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John: {1SM 63.7}

"These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Rev. 3:7). {1SM 63.8}

I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels' messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them. {1SM 63.9}

Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection. It was only the class who had despised the light

There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot, with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven. {1SM 63.5}

There was a shut door in Christ's day. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, "Your house is left unto you desolate" (Matt. 23:38). {1SM 63.6}

Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John: {1SM 63.7}

"These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Rev. 3:7). {1SM 63.8}

I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels' messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them. {1SM 63.9}

Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection. It was only the class who had despised the light

64

from heaven that the Spirit of God could not reach. And this class included, as I have stated, both those who refused to accept the message when it was presented to them, and also those who, having received it, afterward renounced their faith. These might have a form of godliness, and profess to be followers of Christ; but having no living connection with God, they would be taken captive by the delusions of Satan. These two classes are brought to view in the vision--those who declared the light which they had followed a delusion, and the wicked of the world who, having rejected the light, had been rejected of God. No reference is made to those who had not seen the light, and therefore were not guilty of its rejection. {1SM 63.10}

Is that what you were referring to Truth Files?

[Truth Files]

Correct

The door is still open [Revelation 3:10] and will not be closed until the Lord is ready

Once closed, He will proceed to bring His judgment upon an unbelieving world [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19; 6:12-17]

Make certain that you are ready for His visitation which will come suddenly and with no warning [1Thessalonians 5:1-9; Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 21:35]

He will continue to offer salvation during His coming hour of trial [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; but the conditions of the period will be of extreme difficulty for earth dwellers .... confusion, deception, vexation, upheaval, and destruction [Matthew 24:21]

Very few humans will turn to Him during the period and billions will be killed in unbelief and lost forever [Psalms 2; Revelation 9:13-21; 20:11-15]

[John317]

But that doesn't show what you claimed. You said she predicted that no more humans on earth would be saved and you implied that she said this on the basis of what she claimed God showed her.

But the exact opposite of this is true.

She says,

Quote:

For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position. {1SM 63.1}

[John317]

Where did Ellen White make the statement that she alone discovered the Investigative Judgment? This was/is your claim a page or so back on this discussion.

You stated: ".... no visible return to the earth, but another thing which she billed as the investigative judgment, which she alone claimed to discover"

Is this true?

[miz3]

I understand what you are saying, and where you are coming from, but regardless, just because some conservatives may exercise an un-Christlike deportment and attitude in shoving certain ideas down our throats is no excuse to swing the pendulum to the opposite direction and start being rebellious. Such individuals will be held accountable to God for their own decisions, and will be able to blame no one else.

In my estimation, those who rebel and go the opposite direction simply because certain fanatical principles were forced down their throats only reveal that it was not in their hearts to do what is right. We must weigh things reasonably and with common sense, and be able to discern and strive for true "balance".

As for me, I am against the wedding ring/band myself. However, I am not in favor of those who slam these ideas down people's throats. Instead, their hearts should be won, and they should be treated like everyone else, with love, kindness, sympathy, and helping them to see Jesus. The more we help them to reflect upon the character of Christ, the more they will naturally be impressed to shed such ornaments as defined in 1 Peter 3:3,4 and 1 Timothy 2:9--but it will come from a personal conviction, from themselves, and not someone having to tell them "Take those off!". Such an attitude toward these individuals will incur more harm than good, and will bring injury to the cause of God.

God wants to win people's hearts. He does not want involuntary submission based on "dos" and "don'ts". The "dos and don'ts" will only be a result of a transformed heart, not the other way around.

But I sand by my ground, the wrong "methods" employed of pushing certain Biblical or conservative ideas down our throats is no excuse to disqualify them. Instead, we should be mature and sensible enough to ask ourselves the following question:

"While brother or sister so and so has come across very strong, unloving, and judgment, is perhaps what he/she is saying concerning my lifestyle correct?"

That is the spirit we must exercise!

Disqualifying what they are telling us on the basis of their methodology will not stand in favor of your case on Judgment Day.

Sincerely,

~Lysimachus

We are certainly in the same place when it comes to dealing with brothers and sister. However that is not the way the "Church" has behaved in the past one hundred years. I am afraid that it is not simply a "few" conservatives, but rather it is "at least majority of the body" that has fostered and enforced such cramming down the throats. If it were only a "few" then we would be singing a different song!

As I said in my post I share your concerns that most "liberals" (high percentage general figure not exact proportion) have indeed swung the pendulum way back the opposite way.

The unfortunate result is that we have an "intransigent" Conservative group and "rebellious" liberal group.

The intransigence of conservatives is that they will not give in or even consider that they have been wrong in the past or even behaved wrongly in the past. Their problem is they do not see their sin and their own wrongness.

The rebellion of the liberals is just an immature temper tantrum. It manifests itself for the most part in if it hints of "conservative SDA" do the exact opposite. They also promote a "phony love gospel" that is not Biblical. They tout that they are "not judgmental" yet they judge everything "conservative" as "evil" out of hand!

My own position is not to be wholly in either camp. I am one who wants to know what the Bible says and that alone settles the issue. If the Bible changes what I believe and what I must be then let's make the change. If the Bible and the Bible only shows that what I currently hold true is indeed true then I will cling to my belief.

Unfortunately that puts me right in the cross-fire of both parties which is why my views tend receive little welcome! Like I said it is the nature of the environment in which we live.

You are free to stand your ground. I am only challenging you and others to honestly review your ground and make sure that the ground on which you stand is "Jesus Christ and His Word".

The only way to do this is to challenge your initial assumption to see if it just might be false. Most people say they do this but in reality they always start by assuming the assumption is true and they always get the same result. It is hard to challenge one's assumptions especially when those assumptions are innately ingrained in our being.

This is why our only help in this circumstance is to go to God and plead with Him repeatedly to show us the Truth.

Again, many say they do this but what they really do is pray for God's guidance and then proceed as they have always done from their ingrained assumptions.

I pray for your quest to find the Truth and that God will lead you to the Truth! I also pray for mine as well because my journey to find the Truth is far from over!

[Truth Files]

Ellen G. White's False Doctrine of INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT EXPOSED

By Robert K. Sanders, former SDA for 37 years

LeRoy Froom, an Adventist leader wrote that if the church didn't have the Investigative Judgment message that...

"One would have no justifiable place in the religious world, no distinctive denominational mission and message, no excuse for functioning as a separate church entity today."

SOURCE: Movement of Destiny, p. 542.

The Investigative Judgment is a complex doctrine, unique only to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is complex because the Scriptures have been twisted and manipulated to make this doctrine appear Biblical. Most SDA Church members probably would not be able to explain it without Ellen G. White material in front of them to guide them.

The false doctrine of Investigative Judgment has been the most controversial and debated doctrine within the SDA Church since it's invention. Ellen White put her visionary stamp of approval on the doctrine, and the SDA cult cannot discard this doctrine without admitting Ellen G. White was a false prophet. They have a tiger by the tail.

I hope to make Ellen G. White's Investigative Judgment doctrine simple to understand, so that sincere Christians can see that it is without Biblical foundation, and that it was the invention of religious fanatics.

How Did the Investigative Judgment Begin?

Thousands of people from all denominations took part in the "Advent Movement" also known as "The Millerite Movement" and also "The Great Disappointment." These misguided people believed that Christ would return to earth and save them and destroy the wicked including those that rejected William Miller's "date setting" with hell fire raining down from heaven. The first date set for the "end of the world" was in the fall of 1843, then the spring of 1844 and finally they settled on October 22, 1844.

Needless to say all these failure dates passed without the Savior's return. Hence the term, "The Great Disappointment." The failure of Christ not returning to earth divided the Millerites into two groups. The largest group was led by Wm. Miller who renounced his belief of anything prophetically happening in 1844 and also renounced the SHUT DOOR DOCTRINE. The Millerites went back to holding evangelistic meetings and winning souls for Christ.

The splinter group led by Ellen G. Harmon (later the wife of James White), James White, Captain Joseph Bates and others held on to the SHUT DOOR DOCTRINE, that the door of salvation to the world was closed. They called themselves, "The Little Flock".

There was a rift between the Millerites and the Whites/Bates group. "The Little Flock" were trying to prove to the Millerites that they were not mistaken about the 1844 date and THE SHUT DOOR and that something happened. Ellen White blamed God for the failure for Christ not returning, as she claimed that God put his hand over the figures of the chart and they could not see their mistake. EGW claimed the figures were correct, but the event was wrong. She went on to say that instead of Christ coming to earth to cleanse the Sanctuary on earth, he move from the holy to the most holy apartment in 1844 to begin an Investigative Judgment to cleanse the Sanctuary in Heaven.

It was shortly after the October 22, 1844 DISAPPOINTMENT that the Investigative Judgment theory developed. The I J is not an ancient doctrine from the Bible but is of modern origin.

Ellen White Explains the SDA Investigative Judgment Heresy

Please read carefully and understand what Ellen White says to us from her book, The Great Controversy. In the chapter which deals with the event "that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844," Ellen G. White writes...

"Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies, and there appears in the presence of God, to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man - to perform the work of investigative judgment, and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.

"...So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment, the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, at a later period" (The Great Controversy, 1950 edition, page 480).

"As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected". (The Great Controversy, 1950 edition, page 483). "At the time appointed for the judgment –the close of the 2300 days, in 1844– began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins. All who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass Its searching scrutiny. Both the living and the dead are judged 'out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works ". (The Great Controversy, 1950 edition, page 486).

"Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the cases of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Every one must be tested, and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing". (The Great Controversy, 1950 edition, page 490).

"The Judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. Forty years has this work been in progress. Soon – none know how soon – it will pass to the cases of the living." (The Great Controversy, 1884 edition, page 315).

[miz3]

Where did Ellen White make the statement that she alone discovered the Investigative Judgment? This was/is your claim a page or so back on this discussion.

You stated: ".... no visible return to the earth, but another thing which she billed as the investigative judgment, which she alone claimed to discover"

Is this true?

My view of this is that I don't know of any place where she makes such a claim!

The facts to my knowledge show, provided we are limiting it to SDAism, that it was Hiram Edson who first put forth this theory of the Investigative Judgment!

[cheddar]

Mrs. White said that the trials of the children of Israel and their attitude just before the first coming of Christ were presented before her again and again to illustrate the position of the people of God (adventists) in their experience before the second coming of Christ--how the enemy sought every occasion to take control of the minds of the Jews, and today he is seeking to blind the minds of God's servants that they may not be able to discern the precious truth! See 1 S.M.406.

That says an awful lot, does it not?

In other words, "The Lord has declared that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing work." 2 S.M.390.

So what miz3 is saying goes right along with these statements.

sky

It would be interesting to study what was the "attitude" of the Jews just before the first coming of Christ.

For one thing, at the time of Jesus' birth, Mrs. White was shown that the Jews, whom God had called to be the pillar and ground of the truth, had become the representatives of Satan! See D.A.36.

In the book Testimonies to Ministers, p.366, we read about how Satan's methods are practiced even among Seventh-day Adventists, who claim to have advanced truth.

Amen!

The Jews rammed the ten commandments down everyone's throat and so do Adventists.

Thank God, for EJ Waggoner.

[ClubV12]

miz3, your theology isn't even close to "middle ground". :)

[John317]

The Jews rammed the ten commandments down everyone's throat and so do Adventists.

Thank God for EJ Waggoner.

You would be more correct if you said "some Adventists." Otherwise you are denigrating a whole group of people.

Did Ellen White ram the Ten Commandmetns down everyone's throat, in your opinion?

Actually on this point, Ellen White and EJ Waggoner were in complete agreement, at least up to about 1900.

[John317]

Except for some of the characterizations, the article is fundamentally sound. Its main weakness is that it does not tell the whole story but leaves a great deal of important information out.

In any case, your post fails to support anything you said about Ellen White discovering the Investigavie Judgment or that she "predicted" that no more humans on earth would be saved.

When are you going to show evidence of those two claims?

[John317]

Where did Ellen White make the statement that she alone discovered the Investigative Judgment? This was/is your claim a page or so back on this discussion.

You stated: ".... no visible return to the earth, but another thing which she billed as the investigative judgment, which she alone claimed to discover"

Is this true?

Originally Posted By: miz

My view of this is that I don't know of any place where she makes such a claim!

The facts to my knowledge show, provided we are limiting it to SDAism, that it was Hiram Edson who first put forth this theory of the Investigative Judgment!

No one outside of the former Millerites and SDAs have accepted the Investigative Judgment as the SDA church understands that term.

Are you referring to what happened on the morning of Oct. 23, 1844? If so, Hiram Edson didn't at that time put forward any theory of the Investigative Judgment.

All he said was that "he saw that Christ went into the Most Holy Place" instead of coming to this earth. Some have described Edson's experience as a vision, but Edson never used this expression.

About a year later, an article was published in the Day-Star Extra about the Heavenly Sanctuary. Ellen White did not write it or have anything to do with its writing or with its publication, although she later recommended it to all "the saints." This article was a study of the Bible on the topic, not based on any visions or dreams.

[ClubV12]

"In my labors I was called to oppose the course of some who by their fanaticism were bringing reproach upon the cause of God. These fanatical ones seemed to think that religion consisted in great excitement and noise. They would talk in a manner that would irritate unbelievers, and cause them to hate them and the doctrines they taught; then they would rejoice that they suffered persecution." Testimonies, Volume 1

Came across this the other day, thought it was interesting, that some rejoice in the persecution they bring upon themselves. Another aspect of fanticism is that some were ready to DIE for what they believed. They were THAT sincere, but it would be a foolish death with no reward. Such is the power of fantacism.

[John317]

True. God doesn't want us to deliberately provoke persecution. That would be stupid but many of the first and second century Christians did this. Some went to the mouths of lions rejoicing when if they had used better judgment, they wouldn't have been eaten but could have preached longer and lived for God's glory.

I've read books about the Jehovah's Witnesses in the Nazi concentration camps, many of whom actually begged their captors to kill them so they could be martyrs.

[Truth Files]

Inclusive

[John317]

Truth Files, I am afraid that you are proving yourself to be anything but. Why are you failing to show proof of what you claimed earlier, and are also posting more unsubstantiated accusations?

[John317]

Please answer this before you post anything more:

Do you think that Club Adventist ought to keep those posts, even though they say unkind, inaccurate things you can't show to be true?

Again:

Your post fails to support anything you said about Ellen White discovering the Investigavie Judgment or that she "predicted" that no more humans on earth would be saved.

When are you going to show evidence of those two claims?

[Lysimachus]

Truth Files, I am afraid that you are proving yourself to be anything but. Why are you failing to show proof of what you claimed earlier, and are also posting more unsubstantiated accusations?

This is a characteristic I have seen manifested among our critics all my life. Once they realize they are standing on shaky grounds that are incapable of substantiating their faulty charges, instead of conceding that they have subscribed to baseless accusations, they end up resorting to grabbing onto other groundless charges. They will always continue to jump to another accusation once they realize they can't back them up.