What do you call yourself . . .

[ClubV12]

Thats a reasonable balance Shelly. For many of us who support the 28 without hesitation and support Ellen White, it's because we have studied the issues enough to build solidly on them. Certain things become, need to become, "absolutes" in your life. Anchors if you would. God, the creation, Sabbath keeping, everyone has a list. My list continues to grow. Ellen White, Lougborough, James White, Uriah Smith and many other of the pioneers. These people, while not perfect, did a profound work in establishing the church. They got it right, I'm not following this church out of blind faith, or because my Momma did, or because it's a great social gig. I'll build on the foundation previously layed, because I've tested it and it will stand.

That gives a person a lot of freedom to move on with his life, to explore other deeper meanings of God's love. I can't imagine taking decades to figure this stuff out or be stuck on the basics. Study it, come to a conclusion, move on, weeks or months, plenty time. Some will have to learn in a few months what it's taken other years to learn. It's not really that difficult or time consuming, if you trust God.

Shelly, consider this. Do you have any idea WHAT miz3 actually believes? We've heard plenty about what he DOESN'T believe, plenty of negative, but nothing about what he DOES believe, nothing postitive! I'd have to say that "bible and the bible only" plan aint working out for him. If fact, it won't work for anybody, even Paul knew that. He counseled with the brethren.

[miz3]

Shelly, in these last posts directed to miz3, you get a glimpse of the problem. These are not sincere questions of one seeking an alternate view point, change or concern about being in harmony with the brethren, any brethren. The man stands alone, and he's OK with that. Therein lies the danger of anyone who thinks they are an island unto themselves and need consult with no one about anything. Or that they can ignore the work of those that came before them. Just you and the bible? It sounds good. Certainly has the ring of truth. How could you argue against such a lovely statement? You can't, without the guiding of the Holy Spirit such reasoning becomes a powerful delusion that spiritually fits like a glove! But it violates the PRINCIPLES of bible study and the way the Holy Spirit works to move men forward in the light. If possible, even the very elect will be decieved by such "wonderful reasoning". The human mind has an amazing ability and it "feels good" to justify ones action. Especially by employing the apparently highest standards of spirituality, thus the devils snare is set.

WRONG!

I have told you before I do not stand alone! I stand with God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible (including its authors and the faithful therein). These stand with me and these are the One's I consult for my Doctrine!

I will take my List against your human list!

Shelly, in deciding what to do, do not just accept my points or anyone else's points.

Instead plead constantly to the Lord God for His Counsel while continuing to read the Bible and do only what God wants you to do! God is the only One that you have to please! I am not the one to please nor need you please any other entity but God. Pleasing God is the only responsibility you have in life! If you do that honestly, I know that you will be just fine and I will see you in God's Heaven someday!

[teresaq]

Interestingly, Shelly, William Miller studied the bible only, and by himself, and discovered the 2300 days, as did various other individuals around the world. when we study the bible on our own the Lord is able to talk to us directly.

Then there are our pioneers who took every doctrine they knew and studied it critically before the Lord, not accepting the interpretations that had gone before. They studied together, with no human leading or guiding them.

(ps, Much of what Ellen White wrote was already believed before her time. Reading the articles and books of our early pioneers will show that. )

Miz3 and ClubV12 I have to respectfully disagree and agree with both of you. Miz3 is correct that the bible and the Holy Spirit is all that is needed. Always siding with the established norm can mean missing the truth. If the disciples had not rejected the "truth" of their day they woud have never embraced Jesus as the Christ. Our founders would have not accepted the Sabbath if they looked to the council of established christianity. On the other hand, God has does not reveal the truth to one lonely individual. There are always a handful in saints who learn what God is revealing collectively. Both Mary and Joseph were aware that the baby Mary carried was of the Lord. Elizabeth knew that the baby her cousin carried was the Lord. The three wise men were aware of the birth of Jesus, John the Baptist recognized Jesus, and finally the Holy Spirit revealed Jesus' true nature to Peter. On this point, one must put both of your views together to arrive at the biblical truth. Each stance by itself is lacking.

[Aliensanctuary]

When you are not living a traditional SDA lifestyle, how do you identify yourself to others when talking about your Christian walk? Is it fair use the name of a group that you are not representing to the best of your ability?

A few years ago, the head elder of our little SDA church, an orthopedic surgeon, was one of the best speakers we had when the pastor was preaching at his other churches---4 or 5, I think. Things were going well enough until word got out that he (quite married) and the unmarried church school teacher were having an affair...and she was pregnant. Well, the pastor quit in disgust and half the congregation stopped attending, including myself. The teacher suddenly left town, while the head elder still attended church, but no longer preached.

If we could read minds like Jesus did, we would see that everyone attending church is just about as dirty as everyone else, including some of the pastors. We should be especially wary of those who grab the microphone and speak wonderful things. In my experience, the biggest talkers are the biggest liars.

We all have brains and don't need anyone, including organizations, to tell us what to believe. If we study the life of Christ and treat others as he did in our daily life, it will be better than participating in some weekly hypocrisy contest. We may be able to hide our secret sins from others, and vice versa, but God can read our minds. He will protect those who love him, and give them integrity.

[John317]

This is true. If we find outselves often disagreeing with all other Christians, we need to look carefully at how we're arriving at our conclusions. God is leading out a church and a people, not separate, independent individuals scattered here and there. When He has truth to reveal to the church, He will reveal it to more than a single person. It will be confirmed by others in the church.

I'm not saying that we should agree with the majority all the time, but neither should be take pride in being frequently or invariably different from everyone else.

We need to have the courage to stand alone when the truth requires it, but we also need to realize that we're not the only one who recognizes the truth when we see it.

God uses other Christians to help us learn the truth, so it's important to be open to what other Christians say and not feel it's necesarry to always "go it alone."

[ClubV12]

teresaq, I'm surprised you don't understand how William Miller worked and studied. He was not alone at all, he counseled extensively with others. You are suggesting, to Shelly, that all she needs is the bible and the bible alone. And then she, like Miller, can interpret prophecy and come up with new beliefs and doctrines. Because you know, thats all we need, just the Spirit and the bible. Don't worry about anybody else, don't consult with anybody else, ignore Ellen White, the Elders of your church, anyone that might get in your way in your pursuit to establish your own doctrinal points.

Is this your message teresaq? Why don't you just suggest we leave the SDA church altogether if we don't need any counsel, if God is leading each one of us independantly of one another. As long as any one us has the potential to create new doctrine, ignore old doctrine, do our own thing. What shall each of us call our new church, Aliensanctuary?

What new doctrine are you offering this week in your church, teresaq, Aliensanctuary, miz3?

[ClubV12]

How sad is this? Here we have professed Seventh-day Adventists all but encouraging another member to leave the church and go it alone, just her and her bible. Aligning themselves with the counsel of miz3, who is adamantly opposed to all the SDA church stands for.

I'm literally feeling sick to my stomach over this turn of events. Press together in one moment, and then telling the very ones who need counsel of the brethren more than ever, they can go it alone.

What spirit is guiding this counsel? It's not the Holy Spirit. It's a classic case of false sympathizing, trying to be "nice" and "loving" and "tickle my ears" with sweet testimony and a show of love. Love is the straight testimony, the harsh reality that if you play in the street you will get run over. Using the highest "spiritual" principles, the bible and the bible alone, sounds so marvelous, so wonderful. It's a bush whack, a trap, the noose tightens, the silken cords of sin entangle. Consider your counsel carefully gentleman, lest you find yourself with blood on your hands.

Few, if any of us, are of the caliber of William Miller or Martin Luther, men who did NOT work alone. You guys fail, in a profound and disturbing way to understand how the Holy Spirit and scripture works.

[miz3]

How sad is this? Here we have professed Seventh-day Adventists all but encouraging another member to leave the church and go it alone, just her and her bible. Aligning themselves with the counsel of miz3, who is adamantly opposed to all the SDA church stands for.

I'm literally feeling sick to my stomach over this turn of events. Press together in one moment, and then telling the very ones who need counsel of the brethren more than ever, they can go it alone.

What spirit is guiding this counsel? It's not the Holy Spirit. It's a classic case of false sympathizing, trying to be "nice" and "loving" and "tickle my ears" with sweet testimony and a show of love. Love is the straight testimony, the harsh reality that if you play in the street you will get run over. Using the highest "spiritual" principles, the bible and the bible alone, sounds so marvelous, so wonderful. It's a bush whack, a trap, the noose tightens, the silken cords of sin entangle. Consider your counsel carefully gentleman, lest you find yourself with blood on your hands.

Few, if any of us, are of the caliber of William Miller or Martin Luther, men who did NOT work alone. You guys fail, in a profound and disturbing way to understand how the Holy Spirit and scripture works.

So I was correct! The SDA Church says it is a Bible and Bible only Church but we have ClubV12's own clear testimony that it is indeed the Bible and bunch of other things that bring truth! So the Bible and the Bible only is a sham!

[Lysimachus]

So I was correct! The SDA Church says it is a Bible and Bible only Church but we have ClubV12's own clear testimony that it is indeed the Bible and bunch of other things that bring truth! So the Bible and the Bible only is a sham!

If it was the Bible without the Spirit of Prophecy, it would not be the "Bible and the Bible alone". Only in conjunction WITH the Spirit of Prophecy can it truly be "the Bible and the Bible alone". Why? Because the Bible and the Bible alone AUTHENTICATES and REQUIRES obedience to the Spirit of Prophecy. Therefore, to obey the Spirit of Prophecy as given in the writings of Sister White IS to follow the Bible and the Bible alone!

To neglect the Spirit of Prophecy IS TO NEGLECT A PART OF THE BIBLE!

Conclusion:

TRUE Seventh-Day Adventists are more "Bible and Bible alone" than ALL the Protestant Evangelicals put together!

[John317]

Consider some counsel:

Quote:

The circumstances connected with the separation of Paul and Barnabas by the Holy Spirit to a definite line of service show clearly that the Lord works through appointed agencies in His organized church. Years before, when the divine purpose concerning Paul was first revealed to him by the Saviour Himself, Paul was immediately afterward brought into contact with members of the newly organized church at Damascus. Furthermore, the church at that place was not long left in darkness as to the personal experience of the converted Pharisee. And now, when the divine commission given at that time was to be more fully carried out, the Holy Spirit, again bearing witness concerning Paul as a chosen vessel to bear the gospel to the Gentiles, laid upon the church the work of ordaining him and his fellow laborer. As the leaders of the church in Antioch "ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate Me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them." {AA 162.3}

God has made His church on the earth a channel of light, and through it He communicates His purposes and His will. He does not give to one of His servants an experience independent of and contrary to the experience of the church itself. Neither does He give one man a knowledge of His will for the entire church while the church--Christ's body --is left in darkness. In His providence He places His servants in close connection with His church in order that they may have less confidence in themselves and greater confidence in others whom He is leading out to advance His work. {AA 163.1}

There have ever been in the church those who are constantly inclined toward individual independence. They seem unable to realize that independence of spirit is liable to lead the human agent to have too much confidence in himself and to trust in his own judgment rather than to respect the counsel and highly esteem the judgment of his brethren, especially of those in the offices that God has appointed for the leadership of His people. God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for he who does this despises the voice of God. {AA 163.2}

Those who are inclined to regard their individual judgment as supreme are in grave peril. It is Satan's studied effort to separate such ones from those who are channels of light, through whom God has wrought to build up and extend His work in the earth. To neglect or despise those whom God has appointed to bear the responsibilities of leadership in connection with the advancement of the truth, is to reject the means that He has ordained for the help, encouragement, and strength of His people. For any worker in the Lord's cause to pass these by, and to think that his light must come through no other channel than directly from God, is to place himself in a position where he is liable to be deceived by the enemy and overthrown. The Lord in His wisdom has arranged that by means of the close relationship that should be maintained by all believers, Christian shall be united to Christian and church to church. Thus the human instrumentality will be enabled to co-operate with the divine. Every agency will be subordinate to the Holy Spirit, and all the believers will be united in an organized and well-directed effort to give to the world the glad tidings of the grace of God. {AA 164.1}

[ClubV12]

This is a good example of how a delusion works. Those under it and those around it are unable to discern the balance. Obviously our need to study the bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit is of the utmost importance to our Spiritual life.

Doing that, while ignoring the other methods the H.S. uses to convict and educate of us sin is a sin itself.

If all we needed was the bible and it alone, Jesus would not have needed Peter to feed His sheep. None would need each other. We would simply go around handing out bibles, or scrolls, in Peters case, and tell people the Holy Spirit will teach them.

This "lie" not only relieves one of any belief in Ellen White, there is no need for the Pastor, the Elders or anybody else to counsel with.

This is a monstrous lie...

[ClubV12]

It's time to post this, again...

"The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God... It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction." (LDE 177, 178)

Is this how it started for you miz3? Doubts about the Spirit of Prophecy?

[Lysimachus]

It's time to post this, again...

"The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God... It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction." (LDE 177, 178)

Is this how it started for you miz3? Doubts about the Spirit of Prophecy?

Wow, POWERFUL statement ClubV12! Thanks for sharing. If only these words would penetrate and cut deep in the hearts of those doubtful ones here on this board. Oh if they could only see themselves! What is it going to take?? WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO SHAKE THEM UP??!!

The last great delusions are soon to SWEEP the planet, and there will only be TWO SIDES! God's people, who will be FULLY united with one another, or Satan's army, allied to the Beast power in persecution against God's people. There is NO IN-BETWEEN!

[teresaq]

I'm going to need to see some proof of your assertion, my brother. Who was Miller studying and counseling with when he discovered the 2300 days? what biography might you be going by?

teresaq, I'm surprised you don't understand how William Miller worked and studied. He was not alone at all, he counseled extensively with others. ...

[ClubV12]

Thats easy, Google it. Millers work should be SDA 101, his work is the most basic Adventist doctrine the church has, the investigative judgment. Did you know, for instance, it was not William Miller that arrived at the 1844 Great Disappointment date? Who was it, that TOLD Miller, who then accepted it? That was ONE of his MANY colleagues. Miller was no fool, he did NOT "got it alone". He was careful to lay out his ideas before others, to counsel with them, to double check for errors.

Over a 1,300 year period ending around the 1700's they were some 20 different people that wrote about the 2,300 day prophecy. Each of them using the day for a year principle. They concluded the approximate time the prophecy would complete. Miller did the same thing, adjusting his numbers and counseling with others to finally arrive at the last and correct date.

In the 1400's SABBATH KEEPERS identified the Pope as the "Beast" in Revelation, and published a tract on the subject. None of what Miller did was "new light" per se, the Holy Spirit had revealed to many men at different times, around the world this basic truth on the prophecy. Miller did what no one else before had done, he brought it to the people in a way they could understand it. He made it widely available to the masses. Like Henry Ford made the car available to the masses, but he didn't "invent" the car. It is an extremely rare thing for the Holy Spirit to speak to ONE individual in the expansion of doctrine. The Holy Spirit CONVICTS us of doctrine already revealed. In fact, I can't think of a SINGLE instance where ONE man has set doctrine. Certainly not the case in the early church, they met as a counsel. Those great men of God, Peter, Paul, others, knew how the Spirit worked.

[teresaq]

What biographys are you reading? Perhaps it is how you are reading them.

Quote:

In the lead was William Miller, who lived in the eastern edge of New York State. ...Miller set about to study the Word of God, determined to find in the Bible a satisfactory answer to all his questions, and to learn for himself the truths set forth in its pages. {EW viii.3}

For two years he devoted much of his time to a verse-by-verse study of the Scriptures. He determined not to take up the next verse until he felt he had found a satisfactory explanation of the one he was studying. He had before him only his Bible and a concordance. In time he came in his study to the prophecies of the literal, personal, second coming of Christ. He grappled also with the great time prophecies, particularly the 2300-day prophecy of Daniel 8 and 9, Which he linked with the prophecy of Revelation 14 and the message of the angel proclaiming the hour of God’s judgment (Revelation 14:6, 7). In this volume, on page 229, Mrs. White states that “God sent His angel to move upon the heart” of William Miller, “to lead him to search the prophecies.” {EW ix.1}[Footnote: Bliss, Memoirs of Wm. Miller, 76.] {EW ix.3}

“Entering upon the study of the Scriptures as he had done, in order to prove that they were a revelation from God, Miller had not, at the outset, the slightest expectation of reaching the conclusion at which he had now arrived. He himself could hardly credit the results of his investigation. But the scripture evidence was too clear and forcible to be set aside. {EW xiv.2}

“He had devoted two years to the study of the Bible, when, in 1818, he reached the solemn conviction that in about twenty-five years Christ would appear for the redemption of his people.”—The Great Controversy, 324-329. {EW xiv.3}

I'm going to need to see some proof of your assertion, my brother. Who was Miller studying and counseling with when he discovered the 2300 days? what biography might you be going by?

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

teresaq, I'm surprised you don't understand how William Miller worked and studied. He was not alone at all, he counseled extensively with others. ...

[teresaq]

I deleted my post as unnecessary and continuing the antagonism here.

[ClubV12]

The very question this thread asks is, "What do you call yourself..."

On this forum there are many who call themselves Seventh-day Adventists, some who suggest or infer they are, some are a complete mystery. Others are clearly NOT in any way a Seventh-day Adventist, and yet they retain the name. What are the defining marks of a Seventh-day Adventist? What beliefs must you accept to be worthy of the use of that name? We have some clues as to where the GC draws the line, as evidenced by law suits to those who use the name but do not support the 28 fundamental beliefs. Or teach that which is against church policy.

If by your actions, your life, you leave other Seventh-day Adventists wondering if you are or are not an SDA, imagine your witness to the world! How will THEY know? The "name" has fallen to such a low standard, I'm beginning to think I should ask the same question Shelly is: What do you call yourself? I'd like to say I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, but....

I fully support the 28 fundamental doctrines of the church. I believe in the Spirit of Prophecy as evidenced by Ellen White. I believe in the fourth commandment and that the earths final judgment is almost complete. That Jesus is coming soon. What do you believe? Is it enough to be worthy of the name, Seventh-day Adventist?

[ClubV12]

So, who was it that came up with October 22, 1844 date?

HINT: It wasn't Miller!

[teresaq]

Interestingly, Shelly, William Miller studied the bible only, and by himself, and discovered the 2300 days, as did various other individuals around the world. when we study the bible on our own the Lord is able to talk to us directly.

[ClubV12]

#1, No problem with that Shelly. And if so, it is logical to call youself a Seventh-day Adventist.

#2 You have lost the balance of understanding how the Holy Spirit works, as have many others on this thread. John317 posted an excellent review of that balance, when Paul was sent to the CHURCH to receive edification. miz3, Dr. Rich, Wayfinder, Musicman, teresaq(sda) (sadly) and many others are all in perfect agreement with you. Just you and your bible, thats all you need. Consider the fruit (loops) of those who offer you this counsel.

It's a powerful delusion because it goes down so sweetly, sound so heavenly and spiritual, it's true and at the same time, it's not. It's a horrendous lie, a powerful lie. I can't help you find that balance. John317 has noted a fine balance a number of times on this thread, I would consider his counsel carefully, in spite of the opposing views.

Peter was told to "feed my sheep", not give them a scroll and move on. Paul returned to the churches he help establish, to educate, lift up, enoble and counsel. No man or woman is an Island. Not Martin Luther, not William Miller, not Shelly. Remove the counsel of those around you and your only remaining counsel will be the devil, who knows the bible well, he will lead you....

[shelly]

This is a good example of how a delusion works. Those under it and those around it are unable to discern the balance. Obviously our need to study the bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit is of the utmost importance to our Spiritual life.

Doing that, while ignoring the other methods the H.S. uses to convict and educate of us sin is a sin itself.

If all we needed was the bible and it alone, Jesus would not have needed Peter to feed His sheep. None would need each other. We would simply go around handing out bibles, or scrolls, in Peters case, and tell people the Holy Spirit will teach them.

This "lie" not only relieves one of any belief in Ellen White, there is no need for the Pastor, the Elders or anybody else to counsel with.

This is a monstrous lie...

The monstrous lie is that you are perpetuating the belief that God is somehow incapable with working alone. God is quite capable of communicating his wants, needs, ect without going through human beings. Was not Paul stopped by Jesus. By the way, the directive and advice Paul was recieving from his leaders was to affirm the slaying of the Christians. If Jesus had not spoken to Paul, studing the established doctrine of the day would not have lead Paul to be a great worker for the kingdom of God. God can and does speak to us through friends, family, pastors, religous reading material and shows, ect. But it is dangerous to assume that God is limited to the avenues that we are most familiar with. God can do anything. Just because it is useful to have others support and encourage our spiritual journey does not mean God is unable to teach someone the truth without outside help!

[shelly]

#1, No problem with that Shelly. And if so, it is logical to call youself a Seventh-day Adventist.

#2 You have lost the balance of understanding how the Holy Spirit works, as have many others on this thread. John317 posted an excellent review of that balance, when Paul was sent to the CHURCH to receive edification. miz3, Dr. Rich, Wayfinder, Musicman, teresaq(sda) (sadly) and many others are all in perfect agreement with you. Just you and your bible, thats all you need. Consider the fruit (loops) of those who offer you this counsel.

It's a powerful delusion because it goes down so sweetly, sound so heavenly and spiritual, it's true and at the same time, it's not. It's a horrendous lie, a powerful lie. I can't help you find that balance. John317 has noted a fine balance a number of times on this thread, I would consider his counsel carefully, in spite of the opposing views.

Peter was told to "feed my sheep", not give them a scroll and move on. Paul returned to the churches he help establish, to educate, lift up, enoble and counsel. No man or woman is an Island. Not Martin Luther, not William Miller, not Shelly. Remove the counsel of those around you and your only remaining counsel will be the devil, who knows the bible well, he will lead you....

The question you presented is can God not does God. You are answering the question does God when you speak of feeding God's Sheep. Does God provide us leadership-yes. Can God raise up a individual without human intervention-yes he can. You are not getting the desired answer because you are asking the wrong question. What you are asking is is God capable. God is capable of doing whatever he wants. The reply you are seeking is does God, which is an entirely different question!

[ClubV12]

Certainly God can do anything He wants. HOW He does what He does often remains a mystery to us.

"God can and does speak to us through friends, family, pastors, religous reading material and shows, ect. But it is dangerous to assume that God is limited to the avenues that we are most familiar with. God can do anything. Just because it is useful to have others support and encourage our spiritual journey does not mean God is unable to teach someone the truth without outside help!"

Now thats a more balanced approach on how the Holy Spirit works. I would not expect any new light or new undertanding until you have dealt with the old light that has already been presented to you. Clearly, you have some serious issues with the SDA church doctrine. After 20 years, these should have been resolved a long time ago. It concerns me that at this stage you are ready to now find those answers independant of the counsel of the church or the Spirit of Prophecy, or more accurately put would be, "in spite" of the counsel of the church and the Spirit of Prophecy. I don't see the Holy Spirit leading you in this way.

[Lysimachus]

Shelly, I have a question for you.

When you are out in the street, and you bump into a non-Adventist whom you are trying to show your faith, and assuming that person puts up a wall to your beliefs and says "oh, you're affiliated with that Church that believes in Ellen White--a false prophet".

At that point, do you defend her? Or do you agree with the person and also put her down? Do you say anything good about her? Or do you just go right along and say "yeah, you're right, I too am trying to convince my Church that this woman is whacko"

If the latter is true, I find it difficult how on earth you will ever be able to persuade that non-Adventist over to your "in-between-somewhere-in-the-middle-Adventist" views. He'll just look at you in confusion and will end up concluding that you seem lost in where you stand, and will wonder why you don't just disconnect yourself completely.

Honestly, I don't see how the work could ever be finished with your mindset. It's too "mixed up" and "confusing", and not straightforward to new seekers for truth.