What do you call yourself . . .

[teresaq]

You appear to have overlooked this in my post. Perhaps you did not realize that the scriptures deal with this, so we do not need to "use" the SoP. The pioneers were quite studied in the scriptures and could cite bible texts instead of EGW. I think we should be able to learn to do that also.

But let me stress that I acknowledge and appreciate your attempt to understand my post. :_

I mean, I believe there are specific texts that EGW is basing her statement on which is why we should search the scriptures more.

[ClubV12]

John offered such biblical texts in referrence to the question. The other question remains: Was it wrong to quote Ellen White on that issue in Sabbath school class? Not at all, regardless of what members believe or not concerning Ellen White.

Would it be wrong to quote her in conversation with a man on the street who doesn't even know who Ellen White is? Certainly, in that case you need to use the bible alone.

Is it wrong to quote Ellen White to a CHURCH MEMBER who does not accept Ellen White as an inspired source? No, I don't think so, I believe it's still appropriate. I would be cautious and sensitive to NOT use Ellen White quotes in a demeaning or pressuring way that would cause offense. But to cite her as an authority, to a church member, on a point of clairfying a bible passage is appropriate.

Time and place...

[teresaq]

What biblical texts referred to the "robe of light", did J cite? I must have overlooked them.

[ClubV12]

teresaq, your confusing the use of Sister Whites writings as it regards DOCTRINE as opposed to INSIGHTS.

As it concerns DOCTRINE, the church can, does and has arrived at their position with the bible and the bible alone.

As it concerns INSIGHTS, Sister White offers much of it, especially as it regards the life of Christ in the Desire of Ages, for instance. One such "insight" is that Adam and Eve were wearing "robes of light". I am not ashamed to say, I believe that is true.

There's no problem using that quote in Sabbath School class, no problem at all. The quarterly lesson is filled with Sister White insights and comments. I won't stop using that either because it might offend someone.

[miz3]

teresaq, your confusing the use of Sister Whites writings as it regards DOCTRINE as opposed to INSIGHTS.

As it concerns DOCTRINE, the church can, does and has arrived at their position with the bible and the bible alone.

As it concerns INSIGHTS, Sister White offers much of it, especially as it regards the life of Christ in the Desire of Ages, for instance. One such "insight" is that Adam and Eve were wearing "robes of light". I am not ashamed to say, I believe that is true.

There's no problem using that quote in Sabbath School class, no problem at all. The quarterly lesson is filled with Sister White insights and comments. I won't stop using that either because it might offend someone.

SDA SPIN AGAIN!

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

What you have just said is that what the SDA church teaches is more important to you that what the Bible teaches. God in Deut. 4:13 could not be more clear, yet you still maintain that what the SDA church teaches on this supercedes Scripture, at least that is how it appears.

That is not true. I am telling you what the SDA church teaches because I believe it is what the Bible teaches. Otherwise I wouldn't believe it.

The Bible is plain that the children of Israel made an agreement with God to obey the Ten Commandments.

We've been over this many times during the last 2 years.

You said that the SDA church teaches that the Ten Commandments are the covenant. I asked you where you've read such a statement. You won't find it because the SDA church doesn't teach it.

The Ten Commandments are the basis of the agreement God made with Israel.

That's the way I understand it.

[teresaq]

In other words, my brother, you did not know that the bible refers to "robes of light", at least by inference, so you could not quote them instead of EGW? As to the use of Ellen White in any context those points are irrelevant concerning knowing that there are, and what, texts referring to "robes of light".

What biblical texts referred to the "robe of light", did J cite? I must have overlooked them.

[Lysimachus]

Many people tend to get confused concerning the difference between the "words of the covenant", and the "tables of the covenant". The tables are called the "covenant", simply because it is the basis of the agreement. But laws are never an "agreement". The "covenant" is the actual "agreement", "contract", "pact", "commitment" between two parties to KEEP the words written ON the "tables OF the covenant".

The agreement is CONCERNING the words OF the covenant.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Are the angels naked?

not that I've noticed..

...regarding EGW's "robes of light" comments: Mrs. White was describing what she saw in her own limited capacity as a 19th century spokesman. Perhaps nowadays she might refer to the "robes of light" as an energy field, or use some such other modern day nomenclature unbeknownst to her during her lifetime... maybe.. dunno...

aww...just forget I mentioned it...

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Are the angels naked?

not that I've noticed..

...regarding EGW's "robes of light" comments: Mrs. White was describing what she saw in her own limited capacity as a 19th century spokesman. Perhaps nowadays she might refer to the "robes of light" as an energy field, or use some such other modern day nomenclature unbeknownst to her during her lifetime... maybe.. dunno...

aww...just forget I mentioned it...

hmmm, rw...is "love" an "energy field"? I wonder if that is a good way to state it. You have me thinking over here. :)

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Are the angels naked?

not that I've noticed..

...regarding EGW's "robes of light" comments: Mrs. White was describing what she saw in her own limited capacity as a 19th century spokesman. Perhaps nowadays she might refer to the "robes of light" as an energy field, or use some such other modern day nomenclature unbeknownst to her during her lifetime... maybe.. dunno...

aww...just forget I mentioned it...

Not bad rudywoofs! I like it!

I would not dismiss your assertion out of hand. The fact is such a thing is possible. We just don't know!

The Bible is silent as to why they did not know they were naked! Ellen White is the only source for SDA assertions along this line!

Now whether what Ellen White asserts is actually light, energy field, or something we have no conception of, is not a known fact! She described it as light, whether it was actually light only she knows! Her writings to the best of my knowledge do not make any further clarifications.

[ClubV12]

teresaq, what exactly is your problem with Sister White being quoted in Sabbath School? The question I asked earlier remains:

Should we stop quoting Sister White in Sabbath School class to avoid offending people like Shelly? If so, are you prepared to also throw out the quarterly as well, because that is the ONLY way you will be able to stop the lesson from quoting her!

[teresaq]

your continuing posts indicate that you misunderstood my posts, time after time.

teresaq, what exactly is your problem with Sister White being quoted in Sabbath School? The question I asked earlier remains:

Should we stop quoting Sister White in Sabbath School class to avoid offending people like Shelly? If so, are you prepared to also throw out the quarterly as well, because that is the ONLY way you will be able to stop the lesson from quoting her!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

not that I've noticed..

...regarding EGW's "robes of light" comments: Mrs. White was describing what she saw in her own limited capacity as a 19th century spokesman. Perhaps nowadays she might refer to the "robes of light" as an energy field, or use some such other modern day nomenclature unbeknownst to her during her lifetime... maybe.. dunno...

aww...just forget I mentioned it...

Not bad rudywoofs! I like it!

I would not dismiss your assertion out of hand. The fact is such a thing is possible. We just don't know!

The Bible is silent as to why they did not know they were naked! Ellen White is the only source for SDA assertions along this line!

Now whether what Ellen White asserts is actually light, energy field, or something we have no conception of, is not a known fact! She described it as light, whether it was actually light only she knows! Her writings to the best of my knowledge do not make any further clarifications.

Actually not, miz3. Apparently it was a common thought for some time before EGW even had her first vision. A brief look at the archives reveals poems written about angels in "garments of light", one translated from russian.

[ClubV12]

Maybe you can clear it up, teresaq, by actually dealing with the issue Shelly has raised, the basic subject of this thread. Instead of going in circles around it.

Is there a problem using Sister White quotes IN Sabbath school if it offends another member of the church (not a visitor, a member)?

Not using Sister White quotes when dealing with a non-member in matters of DOCTRINE is consistent with her counsel on the proper use of her writings.

[John317]

Your post is a misunderstanding of what I am saying.

If a person finds himself not infrequently telling people that his writing has been misunderstood, the writer should always look to himself as the cause. Ask any writing instuctor. It's a poor writer who places the blame on the reader.

When you write, all the reader has to go on are the words you've put on the page. So when you post, make sure the words are saying what you want them to say.

You won't ever learn to write better if you keep blaming everyone else for misunderstanding what you "meant to say."

It is one thing to "mean to say;" it is something else altogether to say what you mean. :-)

[shelly]

Thank you for all of the responses-even the ones that I don't agree with. I appreciate the concern showed for me even if I don't believe that your reasoning is correct. First, let me state that I am not anti-EGW. I believe that she is an inspired bible writer. I just do not believe that everything the church embraces as inspired writings actually are inspired or even prophecy. I would never discourage others from using her but she is just not for me. At this time I do not feel led to embrace her teachings. Spiritually I am fine with that. However there are two sides to the church community. I am aware that my different beliefs put me on the outside of adventist culture. It is this disconnect that saddens me. But I must be honest with myself and my God. Unfortunately I cannot be honest with my church family because of fear. I believe that God is still working with me. If I am on the wrong path I am sure he will let me know. Until then I will keep studying my bible, keep praying, and remain true to what I know is right. Thanks again.

[shelly]

On a side note, why would Adam and Eve need any type of clothing? It was a man and his wife relaxing in their own home with a few pets? I don't feel the need to be clothed infront of my cat and if I ever get married my husband and my cat will both have to understand sometimes I can't be bothered to get dressed.

[teresaq]

On a side note, why would Adam and Eve need any type of clothing? It was a man and his wife relaxing in their own home with a few pets? I don't feel the need to be clothed infront of my cat and if I ever get married my husband and my cat will both have to understand sometimes I can't be bothered to get dressed.

That is quite a good point, continuing the side note. Eventually tho, they would have children who would have children...I guess it would have been ok if they all went around nude, but I believe the "light" was as spiritual in meaning as literal.

[ClubV12]

That "fear" goes both ways Shelly. I was recently talking to a gentleman in my church and I asked him a question about the idea of a "special resurrection" mentioned in the Great Controversy. He immediately took me aside and cautioned me to very careful asking questions like that around church! Right away he wanted to know who I had been talking with about the subject. He is actually afraid to talk about many of the things he believes as it concern prophecy for fear the kind church folk will brand him as a "fanatic"!

I am learning, slowly, just as I was advised by the older gentleman, to be careful to whom I speak on some subjects concerning prophecy and the Spirit of Prophecy. While I understand your delima of not wanting to hear it to much, understand my delima of trying to contain my excitement and wanting to shout the good news from the rooftop!

The nice thing about THIS forum, is that I CAN shout it from the roof top! I should lower my voice just a tad, me thinks, as it do tend to stir things up around here... I'm working on that, gotta mute the horn a little.

[teresaq]

I do agree wholeheartedly. lol But if most people understand what is said and a few repeatedly don't, well...

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Your post is a misunderstanding of what I am saying.

If a person finds himself not infrequently telling people that his writing has been misunderstood, the writer should always look to himself as the cause. Ask any writing instuctor. It's a poor writer who places the blame on the reader.

When you write, all the reader has to go on are the words you've put on the page. So when you post, make sure the words are saying what you want them to say.

You won't ever learn to write better if you keep blaming everyone else for misunderstanding what you "meant to say."

It is one thing to "mean to say;" it is something else altogether to say what you mean.

[John317]

Club, please don't change that aspect of yourself-- the enthusiasm and love of the truth-- and don't be silent.

As Jesus said, be harmless as a dove but wise as a serpent.

[John317]

I had a favorite aunt, the daughter of an SDA evangelist, who rebelled against her mom and dad, and as a result eventually rejected Ellen White and the Adventist faith. It all started by her doubting Ellen White's statement about the "slaves" who won't be resurrected and the comment about the existence of slavery at the time of the second coming. She said that was obviously false. She went on from that to becoming an unbeliever.

She died a few years ago close to 90 years of age.

The problem is that her understanding of Ellen White was confused. She didn't stop to consider that there are millions of slaves today, including many in Africa.

I wish I could have talked to her about those things, but she had made up her mind about them when I was just a kid.

I think she would have been better off to keep reading and studying Ellen White's writings instead of giving up on them just because she had questions about them. I would say the same thing about the Bible. Keep reading with a sincere prayer on your lips that God will be guiding and teaching you. He will do it.

[shelly]

I had a favorite aunt, the daughter of an SDA evangelist, who rebelled against her mom and dad, and as a result eventually rejected Ellen White and the Adventist faith. It all started by her doubting Ellen White's statement about the "slaves" who won't be resurrected and the comment about the existence of slavery at the time of the second coming. She said that was obviously false. She went on from that to becoming an unbeliever.

She died a few years ago close to 90 years of age.

The problem is that her understanding of Ellen White was confused. She didn't stop to consider that there are millions of slaves today, including many in Africa.

I wish I could have talked to her about those things, but she had made up her mind about them when I was just a kid.

I think she would have been better off to keep reading and studying Ellen White's writings instead of giving up on them just because she had questions about them. I would say the same thing about the Bible. Keep reading with a sincere prayer on your lips that God will be guiding and teaching you. He will do it.

That is sad. That is a good example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. While I have my doubts about EGW I can't imagine thinking that if I gave up EGW it means that I have to turn my back on the Bible and God. I think that happens when people put too much faith in a person. Unfortuanetly some SDA actually believe in EGW rather than believe in the inspiration of her writings. When you get the two confused you set yourself up for a fall. You can bet that a human being will let you down at some point, make statements you cannot reconcile, and disappoint you with their world view. The great thing about our God is that he will never do that. I truly hope your Aunt made her peace with God before her death. You don't have to embrace the SDA faith to be saved but you must embrace God!

[John317]

Another sad part to this is that she brought up her 3 sons-- my cousins-- to be unbelievers. As she lay dying, my father called an SDA pastor in her area to go visit her, but when he arrived at the hospital, she was already unconscious, and the boys didn't see any important reason for him to talk to their mom. She had told my dad a few days before that when the time came, she might want to talk to an SDA pastor, which is why he called one.

As far as her dropping out of faith in Christ altogether-- at least for most of her adult life-- she never did expect her loss of belief in Ellen White to result in rejection of the Bible as God's word. People never plan it that way.

By the way, next week I'm driving up to see one of my aunt's boys. We're very close since growing up together but this will the first time I've seen him since we buried his mom and dad. I'm going to see what he thinks of spiritual things.

Can you believe my cousin's grandfather was an SDA evangelist who knew Ellen White and preached the Third Angels' Messages all over the West coast? He'll be looking for all his children and his grandchildren in heaven, I know.