What do you call yourself . . .

[ClubV12]

"Emphasis, phrasing, ect can change the entire meaning of a passage. When you introduce new details you begin to change the original meaning."

How will we know when we have arrived at the correct interpretation? We can "go it alone", just you, the bible and the Holy Spirit, some say thats all we need to arrive at the truth. That is entirely misleading and is not a central theme of the bible. The early church had counsels, the consulted one with the other. Many bible students rely on commentaries, listen to others, consider outside sources of verification. Some accept at face value whatever the Pastor says, relying on the leadership to do their bible study for them.

I rely on many different sources to come to the truth of the matter. Dictionaries, commentaries, a study of history, counsel with others. A BIG red flag for me is when my interpretaion or understanding takes a major turn against the counsel of others, whom I respect as "men of God". William Miller counseled extensively with others, for instance. While God was leading him, God gave the same light to others as well. He used "men" to confirm Millers study. Miller recieved much of the credit, as he should, but there were a number of individuals involved in his search for understanding. Miller himself did come to the October 22, 1844 date, he accepted that date based on the study and counsel of others who he worked it out with.

To go it alone is not a safe plan, in the counsel of many there is safety. Chose wisely your counselors, but choose them. Hold fast that which is good, reject that which is false. God will NEVER remove every instance of doubt, at some point, you have to move out in faith. One can never "prove" Ellen White, you have to look at the body of her work and the fruits of her labor. As we have done for many many others over the centuries. Luther comes to mind, not perfect, but certainly a man of God. William Miller as well, consider the fruits of their labor.

[miz3]

"Emphasis, phrasing, ect can change the entire meaning of a passage. When you introduce new details you begin to change the original meaning."

How will we know when we have arrived at the correct interpretation? We can "go it alone", just you, the bible and the Holy Spirit, some say thats all we need to arrive at the truth. That is entirely misleading and is not a central theme of the bible. The early church had counsels, the consulted one with the other. Many bible students rely on commentaries, listen to others, consider outside sources of verification. Some accept at face value whatever the Pastor says, relying on the leadership to do their bible study for them.

I rely on many different sources to come to the truth of the matter. Dictionaries, commentaries, a study of history, counsel with others. A BIG red flag for me is when my interpretaion or understanding takes a major turn against the counsel of others, whom I respect as "men of God". William Miller counseled extensively with others, for instance. While God was leading him, God gave the same light to others as well. He used "men" to confirm Millers study. Miller recieved much of the credit, as he should, but there were a number of individuals involved in his search for understanding. Miller himself did come to the October 22, 1844 date, he accepted that date based on the study and counsel of others who he worked it out with.

To go it alone is not a safe plan, in the counsel of many there is safety. Chose wisely your counselors, but choose them. Hold fast that which is good, reject that which is false. God will NEVER remove every instance of doubt, at some point, you have to move out in faith. One can never "prove" Ellen White, you have to look at the body of her work and the fruits of her labor. As we have done for many many others over the centuries. Luther comes to mind, not perfect, but certainly a man of God. William Miller as well, consider the fruits of their labor.

Well William Miller may have had many "counselors", the problem is MILLER GOT IT WRONG!

In addition other Churches also have many "counselors" and look at the diversity of interpretation! The very argument you are making for why SDA have it correct!

Thus, MANY COUNSELORS IS NOT A GUARANTEE OF TRUTH!

DOES COPERNICUS, COME TO MIND!

I will take the Holy Spirit rather than all the combined "counselors" you can think of to be my Interpreter of the Scripture!

[Lysimachus]

Well William Miller may have had many "counselors", the problem is MILLER GOT IT WRONG!

In addition other Churches also have many "counselors" and look at the diversity of interpretation! The very argument you are making for why SDA have it correct!

Thus, MANY COUNSELORS IS NOT A GUARANTEE OF TRUTH!

DOES COPERNICUS, COME TO MIND!

I will take the Holy Spirit rather than all the combined "counselors" you can think of to be my Interpreter of the Scripture!

More than just "counselors", William Miller was just ONE out of about 75 other expositors the world over who came to the conclusion that the 2300 terminated in the 1840s. So if you are going to conclude that he got it "wrong", you better throw out ALL these expositors whom came to this opinion independently of William Miller--who were contemporary as well as prior to his conviction on this matter.

And by the way, the Holy Spirit speaks through "MEN" in case you forgot.

Have fun in your gerbil wheel.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Well William Miller may have had many "counselors", the problem is MILLER GOT IT WRONG!

In addition other Churches also have many "counselors" and look at the diversity of interpretation! The very argument you are making for why SDA have it correct!

Thus, MANY COUNSELORS IS NOT A GUARANTEE OF TRUTH!

DOES COPERNICUS, COME TO MIND!

I will take the Holy Spirit rather than all the combined "counselors" you can think of to be my Interpreter of the Scripture!

More than just "counselors", William Miller was just ONE out of about 75 other expositors the world over who came to the conclusion that the 2300 terminated in the 1840s. So if you are going to conclude that he got it "wrong", you better throw out ALL these expositors whom came to this opinion independently of William Miller--who were contemporary as well as prior to his conviction on this matter.

And by the way, the Holy Spirit speaks through "MEN" in case you forgot.

Have fun in your gerbil wheel.

The Bible states that the Holy Spirit speaks DIRECTLY TO PEOPLE!

SEE 1CORINTHIANS CHAPTER TWO VERSES SIX TO SIXTEEN!

Unfortunately you like to get you info second hand rather than DIRECT FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT!

[ClubV12]

William Miller didn't get it wrong, his date stands and is accurate, 1844, solid as a rock.

Your point about many counselors is well taken however. Thats why we have so many different denominations. So what makes miz3 think he is so different than anybody else who says they can go it alone? No need to counsel with anyone. Had any visions lately miz3? Written any books? Ellen White wrote about 50, by hand. How about the fruits of your labors miz3? Got any church following to speak off, any converts to your new found faith? Looking at your theology, you don't speak according to the word and testimony, you fail, miserably, the most basic of tests on your theology.

So how about them Baptists? Good folk, lots of counselors, but they still missed the boat, as did the Jehovah Witness and a host of others, with many "good counselors". Wait, the Mormons have a prophet, I know, I was a Mormon. And like Shelly, I rejected their so called prophet, because he seriously added and subtracted from the bible! He fails the test on many levels.

While I was only recently baptized, I was in the church for months before making that decision. I've looked over a bunch of doctrine from various religions, they don't add up. The SDA doctrines are truly bible based, their prophet passes the test. I had to be sure of that before I made a committment. I never found some magic bullet of irrefutable proof, I weighed the evidence, read the books, compared scriptures, counseled with those in and out of the SDA church. She doesn't add or subtract but builds and expands. BIG difference there between her work and the work of many others who claim to be prophets. Jehovah Witness theology was interesting, surprisingly they actually have a lot of truth in what they teach. But 85% or 99% (pick a number) doesn't cut it, we need the WHOLE truth or we still fall short. For those who think they can "go it alone", they are doomed to fail, they will grope in darkness. Much study and always learning more about the bible, but never able to come to an understanding of truth. Only finding plenty of hooks on which to hang their doubt.

What makes SDA's different AND correct in their theology? Ellen White, the Lords inspired messenger. Remove that and you've got nothing to stand on, you've removed the very core of the Seventh-day Adventist church and it's beliefs.

Which is what I suspect happened to you, miz3. At some point you began to question the interpretation of the SDA doctrine. You began to question Sister Whites expansion on those doctrinal beliefs. Slowly you began to tear down the very foundation on which you stood. The end result is completely expected, a complete rejection of SDA views, or worse, only a partial acceptance. Either way, half saved is as good as dead.

[miz3]

William Miller didn't get it wrong, his date stands and is accurate, 1844, solid as a rock.

Your point about many counselors is well taken however. Thats why we have so many different denominations. So what makes miz3 think he is so different than anybody else who says they can go it alone? No need to counsel with anyone. Had any visions lately miz3? Written any books? Ellen White wrote about 50, by hand. How about the fruits of your labors miz3? Got any church following to speak off, any converts to your new found faith? Looking at your theology, you don't speak according to the word and testimony, you fail, miserably, the most basic of tests on your theology.

So how about them Baptists? Good folk, lots of counselors, but they still missed the boat, as did the Jehovah Witness and a host of others, with many "good counselors". Wait, the Mormons have a prophet, I know, I was a Mormon. And like Shelly, I rejected their so called prophet, because he seriously added and subtracted from the bible! He fails the test on many levels.

While I was only recently baptized, I was in the church for months before making that decision. I've looked over a bunch of doctrine from various religions, they don't add up. The SDA doctrines are truly bible based, their prophet passes the test. I had to be sure of that before I made a committment. I never found some magic bullet of irrefutable proof, I weighed the evidence, read the books, compared scriptures, counseled with those in and out of the SDA church. She doesn't add or subtract but builds and expands. BIG difference there between her work and the work of many others who claim to be prophets. Jehovah Witness theology was interesting, surprisingly they actually have a lot of truth in what they teach. But 85% or 99% (pick a number) doesn't cut it, we need the WHOLE truth or we still fall short. For those who think they can "go it alone", they are doomed to fail, they will grope in darkness. Much study and always learning more about the bible, but never able to come to an understanding of truth. Only finding plenty of hooks on which to hang their doubt.

What makes SDA's different AND correct in their theology? Ellen White, the Lords inspired messenger. Remove that and you've got nothing to stand on, you've removed the very core of the Seventh-day Adventist church and it's beliefs.

Which is what I suspect happened to you, miz3. At some point you began to question the interpretation of the SDA doctrine. You began to question Sister Whites expansion on those doctrinal beliefs. Slowly you began to tear down the very foundation on which you stood. The end result is completely expected, a complete rejection of SDA views, or worse, only a partial acceptance. Either way, half saved is as good as dead.

You see ClubV12 your foundation is not the foundation the Bible states should be our foundation.

The Biblical Foundation is Jesus Christ! You know the "Corner Stone"!

In my humble opinion the core of the SDA Church should be Jesus Christ and not Ellen White and her works!

[Lysimachus]

The Bible and Jesus are one and the same.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39)

Every single word in the Bible, INCLUDING PROPHECY and the TIME PERIODS, is God-breathed! It is Jesus Christ speaking. To study all these events is to study Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. Everything in the prophecies, and all His Law is tied and hinged to Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.

[ClubV12]

"In my humble opinion the core of the SDA Church should be Jesus Christ and not Ellen White and her works!"

The core of the SDA church IS Jesus, not Ellen White.

Of course the Methodists think the same thing, as does miz3, along with Muslims, the Catholics, the Mormons and every man that thinks the Holy Spirit speaks to them personally. No need for anybody else to get involved. So, what are you going to name your church, miz3? Take a number, get in line, there are hundreds just like you, "pretty sure" they got it right, don't need nobody else to help them out. Just the bible and the bible alone, a great concept, solid idea, one problem, thats not how the Holy Spirit works. The evidence is clear and convincing, a vast array of misinterpretations, a multitude of churchs, the end result, Babylon. Without a vision, the people perish. SDA's have such a vision, where do you get your vision from?

[miz3]

"In my humble opinion the core of the SDA Church should be Jesus Christ and not Ellen White and her works!"

The core of the SDA church IS Jesus, not Ellen White.

Of course the Methodists think the same thing, as does miz3, along with Muslims, the Catholics, the Mormons and every man that thinks the Holy Spirit speaks to them personally. No need for anybody else to get involved. So, what are you going to name your church, miz3? Take a number, get in line, there are hundreds just like you, "pretty sure" they got it right, don't need nobody else to help them out. Just the bible and the bible alone, a great concept, solid idea, one problem, thats not how the Holy Spirit works. The evidence is clear and convincing, a vast array of misinterpretations, a multitude of churchs, the end result, Babylon. Without a vision, the people perish. SDA's have such a vision, where do you get your vision from?

So I take it the Holy Spirit does not deal with you Directly?

[Lysimachus]

So I take it the Holy Spirit does not deal with you Directly?

Miz3, it's hard for me to fathom that I have to bring this up, because as intelligent as you are, you should know very well that there are DIFFERENT workings of the Holy Spirit upon people. The Holy Spirit convicts ALL of sin, and works upon the human heart. But do not confuse this kind of working of the Holy Spirit with the prophetic gift! That is a DIFFERENT OFFICE of the Holy Spirit, which He has given to prophets ALONE.

The Holy Spirit also speaks through human instrumentality. Many times a human being shows us where we are in error, and the Devil tempts us to think "if God wants me to change my view, the Holy Spirit will convict me of the matter", when little do they know but the Lord just DID send them the Holy Spirit, but through a human instrument--through a HUMBLE servant.

In the day of reckoning miz3, I pray that this is not your case. Where the Lord will look directly in your eye and say "But I did send you the Holy Spirit, and I used a human instrument to show you the truth, but you rejected the the message I had this messenger bear to you".

[ClubV12]

It is "fundamental" to understand how the Holy Spirit works, it is the ONLY method where God can reach us. If we misunderstand this most important point that any other single element of christian experience, all is lost. We will have closed the ONLY door through which we are called.

People are always looking for the right answer to a question. What "proof" do I have on this or that subject. It NEVER works that way with truth. You have to dig for it. It is SO easy to swing from one side of the road or the other. Your only hope is to have the Spirits guidance, and yet, if you misunderstand how the Spirit works, you have no hope. Delusion is the end result, a sincere, heart felt belief you are correct, sincerely mistaken.

When the final test comes those people looking to KILL Sabbath keepers because thats the law of the land, aren't "bad people" in their eyes. Their doing for God, and for country, to get this country back into God's good grace and stop all those plagues. They will sincerely WANT to kill Sabbath keepers, it will be their only "hope" left in a world falling all around them. Among them will be many Seventh-day Adventists, convinced they have finally "seen the light".

David in the depths of his unfathomable sin pleaded with God to not take the Holy Spirit from him. To create in him a new heart. He wasn't concerned about punishment, or paying for his sins, he wanted only to draw closer to God. He recognized step 1, don't grieve the Holy Spirit.

[Lysimachus]

It is "fundamental" to understand how the Holy Spirit works, it is the ONLY method where God can reach us. If we misunderstand this most important point that any other single element of christian experience, all is lost. We will have closed the ONLY door through which we are called.

People are always looking for the right answer to a question. What "proof" do I have on this or that subject. It NEVER works that way with truth. You have to dig for it. It is SO easy to swing from one side of the road or the other. Your only hope is to have the Spirits guidance, and yet, if you misunderstand how the Spirit works, you have no hope. Delusion is the end result, a sincere, heart felt belief you are correct, sincerely mistaken.

When the final test comes those people looking to KILL Sabbath keepers because thats the law of the land, aren't "bad people" in their eyes. Their doing for God, and for country, to get this country back into God's good grace and stop all those plagues. They will sincerely WANT to kill Sabbath keepers, it will be their only "hope" left in a world falling all around them. Among them will be many Seventh-day Adventists, convinced they have finally "seen the light".

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

So I take it the Holy Spirit does not deal with you Directly?

Miz3, it's hard for me to fathom that I have to bring this up, because as intelligent as you are, you should know very well that there are DIFFERENT workings of the Holy Spirit upon people. The Holy Spirit convicts ALL of sin, and works upon the human heart. But do not confuse this kind of working of the Holy Spirit with the prophetic gift! That is a DIFFERENT OFFICE of the Holy Spirit, which He has given to prophets ALONE.

The Holy Spirit also speaks through human instrumentality. Many times a human being shows us where we are in error, and the Devil tempts us to think "if God wants me to change my view, the Holy Spirit will convict me of the matter", when little do they know but the Lord just DID send them the Holy Spirit, but through a human instrument--through a HUMBLE servant.

In the day of reckoning miz3, I pray that this is not your case. Where the Lord will look directly in your eye and say "But I did send you the Holy Spirit, and I used a human instrument to show you the truth, but you rejected the the message I had this messenger bear to you".

Could it be that God is sending you that exact same message through me! Of course that would never occur to you because you have already shut out what God through the Spirit is saying to me and sharing that with you!

You see the street runs both ways my friend. I am going in the direction of Heaven which direction you seem to oppose! I know that your direction is wrong because you do not reckon according to the Bible but you reckon according to the dictates of human scholarship and knowledge!

I know my direction is correct because my knowledge comes from the Bible the Word of God! God has fulfilled His promise to me that He made in James 1:5!

You could have that same experience but you choose to use erroneous theories and human wisdom found in 75 scholars who agreed with William Miller as well as list upon list of human wisdom currently on your reading list!

You do not read the Bible as it reads. You are constantly reading hocus pocus human mysticism into the Bible! These additions are what lead you astray!

I pray that God will prick your heart and that you will humble your haughty spirit of superiorism and kneel at the Feet of God and ask Him for the Wisdom He has promised you in James 1:5!

[Lysimachus]

Could it be that God is sending you that exact same message through me! Of course that would never occur to you because you have already shut out what God through the Spirit is saying to me and sharing that with you!

The reason why this is impossible is because I have already compared what you have said with the Word and History, and my years of research on this matter COMPELS my conscience to the conviction that you are wrong. The Word of God is contrary to your testimony, so thus, I must disqualify your claims. The Holy Spirit is NEVER contrary to Biblically textual and historical facts. Never.

[ClubV12]

"Could it be that God is sending you that exact same message through me!"

Well that IS the delima, is it not? HOW will we know? Through solid principles that are built on a biblical foundation. Not feeling, but in many respects, common sense, weighing the evidence, counseling with the brethren.

God may use even a man who is NOT all together correct in his life to deliver a message! Consider the message, not the man, or the woman. Many times you will have no "clear light" on what to do, what to accept. At those times you MUST move from principle, those concepts you have learned, through the Spirit over time. Don't wait for some "sign" or "feeling".

What ARE the principles in any given case? SDA's have a special advantage in that area, the Testimonies, delivered by Jesus to us our modern times. That we may not be deceived.

When Ellen White went to work in Australia, she had no "clear light" on whether or not to make that move. She was a PROPHET and yet God did not give her a vision or a dream or a revelation. He left it to her to work out. She moved (to Australia) because, having no clear light, the principle was to be "in harmony with the brethren". They asked, she obeyed, God blessed. Now another time the brethren said don't move in Michigan. But she had clear light, and moved anyway! There is no "proof" answer when it comes to how the Spirit works.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Could it be that God is sending you that exact same message through me! Of course that would never occur to you because you have already shut out what God through the Spirit is saying to me and sharing that with you!

The reason why this is impossible is because I have already compared what you have said with the Word and History, and my years of research on this matter COMPELS my conscience to the conviction that you are wrong. The Word of God is contrary to your testimony, so thus, I must disqualify your claims. The Holy Spirit is NEVER contrary to Biblically textual and historical facts. Never.

You are entitled to your opinion which is not fact!

I guess you have to add "history" to understand the Bible. The Holy Spirit is not enough. I also guess you have to add "history" because God was not clear enough when He penned the Bible through the Holy Spirit!

I am sorry that you need outside human interpreters so that you can understand God and His Word.

God has a much better plan for Truth seekers than that!

[ClubV12]

If they speak not according to the testimony, it is because there is no light in them. The very fact that someone totally rejects even a basic understanding of the 2,300 day prophecy speaks volumes. This is not an SDA only understanding, this prophecy was worked out by many, all over the world, independantly, well before 1844. Well before there ever was an SDA church. Those folks became "Adventists" and accepted that message and so much more. Miller was right, as were many others. They got the date right, they just didn't know what it meant!

Wow, how fearful when one man is so convinced that the Spirit speaks to them personally and that is all they need. Even the prophets of old weren't that foolish!

[Lysimachus]

Miz3, the same Holy Spirit that leads you to study and understand the Bible will also lead you to become acquainted with history so that you can see the Bible was accurate in what it predicted.

[miz3]

Miz3, the same Holy Spirit that leads you to study and understand the Bible will also lead you to become acquainted with history so that you can see the Bible was accurate in what it predicted.

It has! I have shared some of it with you but you reject it for your hocus pocus complex theory!

[ClubV12]

The Testimony of Jesus, miz. How does that work? The same way the Holy Spirit works, only those with a sincere desire and a clean heart will be able to figure it out.

It is not just a few on the web site who you reject miz, it is a very significant number of scholars from decades past whom you also reject. "We" are just building and expanding on their foundation.

[miz3]

The Testimony of Jesus, miz. How does that work? The same way the Holy Spirit works, only those with a sincere desire and a clean heart will be able to figure it out.

It is not just a few on the web site who you reject miz, it is a very significant number of scholars from decades past whom you also reject. "We" are just building and expanding on their foundation.

Well which is it? The Testimony of Jesus or the testimony of men?

Which one are you following!

My Testimony is from God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit as spoken in the Word of God, the Bible! I am not confused as to which testimony I must follow! You seem confused as which testimony you are following. You appear to be lead by humans and not by God!

[ClubV12]

Shelly, in these last posts directed to miz3, you get a glimpse of the problem. These are not sincere questions of one seeking an alternate view point, change or concern about being in harmony with the brethren, any brethren. The man stands alone, and he's OK with that. Therein lies the danger of anyone who thinks they are an island unto themselves and need consult with no one about anything. Or that they can ignore the work of those that came before them. Just you and the bible? It sounds good. Certainly has the ring of truth. How could you argue against such a lovely statement? You can't, without the guiding of the Holy Spirit such reasoning becomes a powerful delusion that spiritually fits like a glove! But it violates the PRINCIPLES of bible study and the way the Holy Spirit works to move men forward in the light. If possible, even the very elect will be decieved by such "wonderful reasoning". The human mind has an amazing ability and it "feels good" to justify ones action. Especially by employing the apparently highest standards of spirituality, thus the devils snare is set.

[Lysimachus]

Shelly, in these last posts directed to miz3, you get a glimpse of the problem. These are not sincere questions of one seeking an alternate view point, change or concern about being in harmony with the brethren, any brethren. The man stands alone, and he's OK with that. Therein lies the danger of anyone who thinks they are an island unto themselves and need consult with no one about anything. Or that they can ignore the work of those that came before them. Just you and the bible? It sounds good. Certainly has the ring of truth. How could you argue against such a lovely statement? You can't, without the guiding of the Holy Spirit such reasoning becomes a powerful delusion that spiritually fits like a glove! But it violates the PRINCIPLES of bible study and the way the Holy Spirit works to move men forward in the light. If possible, even the very elect will be decieved by such "wonderful reasoning". The human mind has an amazing ability and it "feels good" to justify ones action. Especially by employing the apparently highest standards of spirituality, thus the devils snare is set.

I could not have put it in better words myself!

[ClubV12]

...just paraphrasing what the Lord has delivered to us through his prophetess, any and all glory belongs to Him.

[shelly]

Miz3 and ClubV12 I have to respectfully disagree and agree with both of you. Miz3 is correct that the bible and the Holy Spirit is all that is needed. Always siding with the established norm can mean missing the truth. If the disciples had not rejected the "truth" of their day they woud have never embraced Jesus as the Christ. Our founders would have not accepted the Sabbath if they looked to the council of established christianity. On the other hand, God has does not reveal the truth to one lonely individual. There are always a handful in saints who learn what God is revealing collectively. Both Mary and Joseph were aware that the baby Mary carried was of the Lord. Elizabeth knew that the baby her cousin carried was the Lord. The three wise men were aware of the birth of Jesus, John the Baptist recognized Jesus, and finally the Holy Spirit revealed Jesus' true nature to Peter. On this point, one must put both of your views together to arrive at the biblical truth. Each stance by itself is lacking.