What do you call yourself . . .

[shelly]

buried his mom and dad. I'm going to see what he thinks of spiritual things.

Can you believe my cousin's grandfather was an SDA evangelist who knew Ellen White and preached the Third Angels' Messages all over the West coast? He'll be looking for all his children and his grandchildren in heaven, I know.

Yes I can believe that. I am a fourth generation SDA and you see the issues I have.

[ClubV12]

It's good to be a newbie, I'm beginning to think... :)

[John317]

Just goes to show it's not necessarily an advantage to be from a long line of SDAs.

Speaking of issues, I've had my own, despite being a fifth generation SDA:

http://adventistbloggers.com/forum/ubbth...s.html#comments

http://adventistbloggers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/165910/12.html

It seems that we never learn from other's mistakes, and we have to learn the hard way. No one can walk it for us, as the song goes. I'll be praying for you as you walk yours. :-)

[Lysimachus]

It's good to be a newbie, I'm beginning to think...

I would agree. Newbies in many cases tend to appreciate the Adventist light a lot more in comparison to those who have been raised one all their life, because it is new and refreshing. But pray earnestly, and continue to hold on to the doctrine once delivered unto you, because the Devil will come and try to put you to sleep just like he does the rest of us.

I've seen so many times where a new person comes into the Adventist faith all on fire, and they just want to tell the world! But all the people in the Adventist Church start to get uncomfortable that the new person is so on fire, so they all get their buckets of cold water, and throw the water on them little by little every day, until you start to see the steam floating up into the air, and then they end up becoming lukewarm just like all the rest in the Church.

So keep that fire burnin ClubV12!!, regardless of the lethargic atmosphere you may find yourself in! I must confess, there are VERY few Adventists these days in Churches where they get excited about talking about spiritual things. They'd rather talk about their transmission, or their new TV set than to engage in deep spiritual conversation concerning practical Godliness, or even about strategies in how to effectively communicate the distinctive doctrines inherent in Adventism.

When lukewarm Adventists inadvertently try to put you to sleep ClubV12, this is what you are going to tell them: "You don't know how good you've got it! Do you realize that??"

[John317]

It's true that a lot of SDAs or former SDAs who are born in a family of SDAs don't appreciate what they have.

It is kind of like health that way: you often don't treasure it until you've lost it.

I know a lot like that-- almost my whole generation that I grew up with and went to SDA schools with. Some have come back, but most seem to be still a long way out and need God's help finding their back in.

[John317]

Amen and Amen!!!

[Musicman1228]

It's true that a lot of SDAs or former SDAs who are born in a family of SDAs don't appreciate what they have.

It is kind of like health that way: you often don't treasure it until you've lost it.

I know a lot like that-- almost my whole generation that I grew up with and went to SDA schools with. Some have come back, but most seem to be still a long way out and need God's help finding their back in.

“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.   (2) Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.   (3) Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Rev. 3:1-3.

The message to the assembly of Sardis is a message to the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end. The K of H today is the SDA church; therefore this message is to SDA's. This message says that the work of the SDA church is not complete because we have forgotten where we have come from, what we that received and heard from the foundation of our movement. It is THIS that we must keep. In order to repent from something you must recognize that you have moved away from the original. Because we moved away from the original (pre EGW) we as a church have fallen asleep. If we don't wake up from this sleeping condition the Master will come when we are asleep and we will not know at what time He will come AGAINST us. He will not come FOR us if we are asleep. This fits the picture set in Matt. 25:1-13 perfectly. And yet for the most part the SDA church still does not realize who they are and what God has set them up to do.

Right now, today, what the SDA church has is information that we THINK is true, but is not. And because it is not true the church has not completed the work that God designed us to do.

[Truth Files]

The SDA reflects these paticular negative and pronounced characteristics .... beware of what is going on ... and what is going to take place [Matthew 25:1-13]

Revelation

2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan [gentiles who claim to have replaced Israel] .

2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

[shelly]

Originally Posted By: John317

It's true that a lot of SDAs or former SDAs who are born in a family of SDAs don't appreciate what they have.

It is kind of like health that way: you often don't treasure it until you've lost it.

I know a lot like that-- almost my whole generation that I grew up with and went to SDA schools with. Some have come back, but most seem to be still a long way out and need God's help finding their back in.

Right now, today, what the SDA church has is information that we THINK is true, but is not. And because it is not true the church has not completed the work that God designed us to do.

I have to agree with you Musicman. A true bible only church would not require its members to affirm their belief in a extra-biblical source. No matter how much EGW "agrees" with the bible it is misleading to advertise ourselves as a bible only church. Until our church admits that we use an extrabiblical source to develop church policies on chirsitian living and to supplement the bible their will always be difficulty surrounding EGW. We need to admit the truth or go about seeking ways to truely make only the bible our source of guidence. I also think those born into the SDA church tend to know where the skeletons are hidden more so than new converts. They see the imperfections more readily than new comers. Insider information can work for or against you even in the church.

[ClubV12]

Church policy, lifestyle choices, good counsel on health, is much different than doctrine. The SDA doctrine is bible based and stands on the bible alone.

That was an important issue for me when I came into the church, and it still is. IF the church was establishing their doctrine on a "prophet" that I didn't believe in at the time, I would have left. For me, it had to be the bible and the bible alone on the doctrine.

As far as policy goes, it is wise counsel from Ellen White on lifestyle choices. It makes sense, it's reasonable and logical, but it's not doctrinal. I've been immersed in studying the history of the church, the pioneers, how doctrine was developed. At first I was all but convinced much of it came from Ellen White. That view has changed substantially. I began to see where she actually had little to do with establishing doctrine. It was intense studying of the word, which she herself was doing, and comparing point by point with the counsel of the brethren. When they agreed on certain points they moved on to the next one, it was all bible based.

This is why the early SDA's were particularly known as people of the book, bible based. That remains true today.

[John317]

...The message to the assembly of Sardis is a message to the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end. The K of H today is the SDA church; therefore this message is to SDA's. This message says that the work of the SDA church is not complete because we have forgotten where we have come from, what we that received and heard from the foundation of our movement. It is THIS that we must keep. In order to repent from something you must recognize that you have moved away from the original. Because we moved away from the original (pre EGW) we as a church have fallen asleep. If we don't wake up from this sleeping condition the Master will come when we are asleep and we will not know at what time He will come AGAINST us.

A major problem with your view is that the SDA church wouldn't even exist today if it hadn't been for the work and prophetic ministry of Ellen G. White. What you consider the Kingdom of Heaven-- the SDA church-- is based on the labors of a woman whom you claim was a false prophet. That just does not compute. Everything we are today as a church has been influenced in some significant way by Ellen White's work and writings.

You have no evidence whatsoever that if the church stopped believing in Ellen White, and also rejected 2/3 of the NT, the church would be better off.

[John317]

... A true bible only church would not require its members to affirm their belief in a extra-biblical source. No matter how much EGW "agrees" with the bible it is misleading to advertise ourselves as a bible only church.

But it is false to say that the members of the SDA church are required to affirm their belief in Ellen G. White's prophetic gift. We have no such requirement. She is not a test for membership in the SDA church.

[John317]

... I also think those born into the SDA church tend to know where the skeletons are hidden more so than new converts. They see the imperfections more readily than new comers. Insider information can work for or against you even in the church.

We need to remember that there were also imperfections in the first century church during the time of the apostles. There will always be skeletons because the church consists of both the wheat and the tares, and will continue to do so until just before the second coming.

No one should be shocked that the church has problems. The church has always had problems because the church is made up of fallible, fallen, sinful people, and the Devil is out to destroy the church. Revelation says the Devil is making war against the church. A major part of that warfare is from within the church itself.

God is not the only one who brings people into the church. The Devil also brings people into the church in an attempt to cause division and strife. Satan introduces false doctrines and dissension through people who are not truly converted.

[John317]

... Until our church admits that we use an extrabiblical source to develop church policies on chirsitian living and to supplement the bible their will always be difficulty surrounding EGW. We need to admit the truth or go about seeking ways to truely make only the bible our source of guidence.

I don't think it's a question of the church admitting the use of extrabiblical sources. We freely and joyfully proclaim that God has raised up a prophet in these last days, and the SDA church certainly uses the messages that God sent to us through Ellen G. White. But the fact that we acknowldge this doesn't mean that we don't base our doctrines on the Bible. All of our doctrines may be found in the Scriptures. This is the truth.

By accepting the messages of Christ given through Ellen G. White, we are in harmony with the Bible itself, which contains the following inspired instructions for the church:

Quote:

1 Thess. 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

And:

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

And:

Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Not to accept the messages would be to reject the One who gave her the messages. See 1 Selected Messages, pages 15-45.

When the children of Israel rejected Moses, they were actually rebelling against God.

[miz3]

I have to agree with you Musicman. A true bible only church would not require its members to affirm their belief in a extra-biblical source. No matter how much EGW "agrees" with the bible it is misleading to advertise ourselves as a bible only church. Until our church admits that we use an extrabiblical source to develop church policies on chirsitian living and to supplement the bible their will always be difficulty surrounding EGW. We need to admit the truth or go about seeking ways to truely make only the bible our source of guidence. I also think those born into the SDA church tend to know where the skeletons are hidden more so than new converts. They see the imperfections more readily than new comers. Insider information can work for or against you even in the church.

ONCE AGAIN, MEGA DITTOS, SHELLY!

[ClubV12]

There are a number of incredibly blind people on this site, but if I only had to pick one, I couldn't. Two or three are running neck and neck.

Even when faced with historical data, recorded centuries ago, they still refute the obvious. Whew,,, talked about some twisted reasoning.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

...The message to the assembly of Sardis is a message to the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end. The K of H today is the SDA church; therefore this message is to SDA's. This message says that the work of the SDA church is not complete because we have forgotten where we have come from, what we that received and heard from the foundation of our movement. It is THIS that we must keep. In order to repent from something you must recognize that you have moved away from the original. Because we moved away from the original (pre EGW) we as a church have fallen asleep. If we don't wake up from this sleeping condition the Master will come when we are asleep and we will not know at what time He will come AGAINST us.

A major problem with your view is that the SDA church wouldn't even exist today if it hadn't been for the work and prophetic ministry of Ellen G. White. What you consider the Kingdom of Heaven-- the SDA church-- is based on the labors of a woman whom you claim was a false prophet. That just does not compute. Everything we are today as a church has been influenced in some significant way by Ellen White's work and writings.

You have no evidence whatsoever that if the church stopped believing in Ellen White, and also rejected 2/3 of the NT, the church would be better off.

You are actually mistaken when you say our church would not exist without Ellen White. The Advent movement existed LONG before EGW showed up, and would have continued to grow even had she not been there later.

Do you know what other churches say about the SDA church today because of Ellen White? I have a close friend that is an Episcopal and he just laughs about me staying in a church that is so blind it can't see a false prophet right in front of it's face. I tell him that I am not a member of the SDA church because of EGW but in spite of her. And this opinion by no means represents a minority view point among the other churches. It's actually embarrassing, or should be.

Can you imagine the impact on the world had the original founding 'fathers' of our church stuck to their guns and not allowed Ellen Harmon to take over the way she did. We would still be preaching the message of a soon coming Saviour, who will come to get His Kingdom of Heaven and that the world needs to be ready by going through the process of sanctification.

Instead, our church of today looks very much like all the other churches from a theological point of view, even though some of our church doctrines are different. Our church has accepted righteousness by grace through faith hook line and sinker, just as have EVERY other church in the world, including the RCC. The 'Christian' churches in the kingdom of the world (Satan's kingdom) have replaced the teachings of Jesus Christ with the teachings of Paul, thinking that they are the same. And blindly follows along the little SDA church, that wants to be included in the game with the big kids, and will DO ANYTHING and SAY ANYTHING and BECOME ANYTHING to make that happen. We no longer want to be a 'peculiar' people, we want to be just like everybody else. Unfortunately, that is just what is happening.

But the good thing about EGW is that she actually proves in a profound prophetic way that the SDA church is the Kingdom of Heaven today, because we are currently being sound asleep spiritually. You can find references to our church in Matt.. 24:42-51, Matt. 25:1-13, and Rev. 2 and 3 in the messages to the Seven Assemblies, to name a few. And since the SDA church is spiritual Israel (the K of H) we can see that the 144,000 come out of the Kingdom of Heaven as seen in Rev. 7.

I love the people in my church, which is why I will not leave them to wander aimlessly adrift in a sea of lies and deceit, without making an attempt at showing them what I believe to be the truth. It is up to them to decide for themselves whether what I say is the truth or not. And that is why it irks me no end when people on this and other forums say that I have no right to say what I say about what our church believes to be true, thus trying to deprive other members the opportunity to MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS. Many on this forum would rather make that decision for these people because they don't trust that they can rightly make up their own minds. The only reason I can think as to why they will do this is because they believe they are protecting these ignorant people from people like me because they are too stupid to make the right decision for themselves. And the 'right' decision is always in favor of the established doctrines of the church and never in favor of a 'new' truth. This is shameful.

It is for this very reason that some on this forum have been denied the right to speak out against this very process by being 'banned' because they have been accused of hijacking a thread. And while I will abide by any and all rules set by the moderator so I can continue in whatever limited way afforded me to continue to present the 'Truth' I find it shameful that those that claim to have all the truth fit to print are reluctant to allow their ideas to be tested against the beliefs of those that disagree with them.

[teresaq]

These texts refer to the lack of love, or do you disagree?

The SDA reflects these paticular negative and pronounced characteristics .... beware of what is going on ... and what is going to take place [Matthew 25:1-13]

Revelation

2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan [gentiles who claim to have replaced Israel] .

2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

[teresaq]

Yes, by experience.

I go to prayer meeting and on occasion hear comments to the effect that people don't come to prayer meeting and/or church because...

I can think of other reasons that do not involve blaming the victim. But that would involve getting on our knees before the Lord and asking Him if I am doing something that repels others from coming.

Instead of blaming the victim we need to start accepting responsibility for our need to defend the church, or what it believes according to our understanding, or whether the person is "accepting" the SoP or not. Or whatever we are defending at the expense of the person with whom we are talking.

Instead we need to learn to listen with the intent of understanding what the person is saying. We need to accept them right where they are and as the Lord leads drop a thought here and there.

There are people in the church who are sincerely seeking the Lord, tho, who have not completely lost their porcupine skin. Porcupines shoot out quills when they get scared.

This is an article that deals with this very problem in our church, and apparently in all churches. http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post308330

I also think those born into the SDA church tend to know where the skeletons are hidden more so than new converts. They see the imperfections more readily than new comers. Insider information can work for or against you even in the church.

[teresaq]

"It is false" in theory but not in practice in very many churches. Shelly may be referring more to individual reactions from too many members who do make it a "test of faith" as some of the posts here, as I read them, also indicate.

Originally Posted By: shelly

... A true bible only church would not require its members to affirm their belief in a extra-biblical source. No matter how much EGW "agrees" with the bible it is misleading to advertise ourselves as a bible only church.

But it is false to say that the members of the SDA church are required to affirm their belief in Ellen G. White's prophetic gift. We have no such requirement. She is not a test for membership in the SDA church.

[miz3]

"It is false" in theory but not in practice in very many churches. Shelly may be referring more to individual reactions from too many members who do make it a "test of faith" as some of the posts here, as I read them, also indicate.

Originally Posted By: John317

But it is false to say that the members of the SDA church are required to affirm their belief in Ellen G. White's prophetic gift. We have no such requirement. She is not a test for membership in the SDA church.

RIGHT ON! SISTER! RIGHT ON!

[Primevil60]

sorry shelly and miz but i have been in the adventist church my entire life and have NEVER had to "affirm" EGW in any way. i don't think I even have a book of hers. She was never mentioned in the baptism classes. sure certain adventists are, to put it bluntly, obsessed with what she says. but that isn't the churches stance, so get your facts straight. i've run into plenty of people like those you are referring too, that doesn't mean the whole church is like that.

[ClubV12]

I don't understand this "theme" you have going teresaq. This idea that somehow "we" as Adventists need to apologize for the Spirit of Prophecy. Or that we should apologize or feel sorry for "defending the church". Or that we should not quote Sister White in Sabbath school.

Who is "blaming the victim", as you say, the victim of what?

I accept responsibilty for defending the church, proudly I might add, not with an "apology" as you suggest. Are you ashamed of your beliefs, our the church, or Ellen White or fearful you might offend someone like Shelly with your beliefs? How sad would that be! Jesus brought the SWORD of truth, some folks are going to get hurt, it's going to be painful, it will cut deep, but it has to be done. You cannot bury the truth OR apologize for it OR feel ashamed of it OR worry that it might offend someone. It WILL offend someone, you can count it!!

If someone IS offended because I quoted Ellen White, in church or Sabbath school, I make no apologies. I feel bad their offended, I accept them where their at, but I'm not not about to "shut up" with the Sister White quotes! Were Seventh-day Adventists, not Baptists. Would you tell a Mormon to quite quoting their acknowledged prophet during bible study? You may well find yourself removed from THAT class.

Ellen White, whom I lovingly refer to as Sister White. The Lords prophetess, nay, MORE than a prophetess, a special messenger for our time. Sent from the Lord specifically to raise up in these last days the ONE object of His supreme affection, the Seventh-day Adventist church. Proclaim it loud and long, do not be ashamed, deliver the truth with power.

Not a test of fellowship if you don't believe that, don't believe the lie when someone tells you it is.

I am "obsessed" with Ellen White, and why does that sound like an insult? Are YOU obsessed with Jesus Christ? I am, I want to know more about Him, and His messengers to us, ALL of them. Paul and Ellen White included. If you NOT "obsessed" with Ellen White, you need to seriously consider your standing as a Seventh-day Adventist. I'm not ashamed to say that, if your offended, take it to God. It's a problem you need to work out with Him.

[miz3]

I don't understand this "theme" you have going teresaq. This idea that somehow "we" as Adventists need to apologize for the Spirit of Prophecy. Or that we should apologize or feel sorry for "defending the church". Or that we should not quote Sister White in Sabbath school.

Who is "blaming the victim", as you say, the victim of what?

I accept responsibilty for defending the church, proudly I might add, not with an "apology" as you suggest. Are you ashamed of your beliefs, our the church, or Ellen White or fearful you might offend someone like Shelly with your beliefs? How sad would that be! Jesus brought the SWORD of truth, some folks are going to get hurt, it's going to be painful, it will cut deep, but it has to be done. You cannot bury the truth OR apologize for it OR feel ashamed of it OR worry that it might offend someone. It WILL offend someone, you can count it!!

If someone IS offended because I quoted Ellen White, in church or Sabbath school, I make no apologies. I feel bad their offended, I accept them where their at, but I'm not not about to "shut up" with the Sister White quotes! Were Seventh-day Adventists, not Baptists. Would you tell a Mormon to quite quoting their acknowledged prophet during bible study? You may well find yourself removed from THAT class.

Ellen White, whom I lovingly refer to as Sister White. The Lords prophetess, nay, MORE than a prophetess, a special messenger for our time. Sent from the Lord specifically to raise up in these last days the ONE object of His supreme affection, the Seventh-day Adventist church. Proclaim it loud and long, do not be ashamed, deliver the truth with power.

Not a test of fellowship if you don't believe that, don't believe the lie when someone tells you it is.

I am "obsessed" with Ellen White, and why does that sound like an insult? Are YOU obsessed with Jesus Christ? I am, I want to know more about Him, and His messengers to us, ALL of them. Paul and Ellen White included. If you NOT "obsessed" with Ellen White, you need to seriously consider your standing as a Seventh-day Adventist. I'm not ashamed to say that, if your offended, take it to God. It's a problem you need to work out with Him.

Then pony up SDA, and say Ellen White is a "test of faith"!

Stop trying to say she is not a "test of faith" when in your heart she is a "test of faith"!

You have told me numerous times because of my "belief" about Ellen White that I am not an SDA!

Don't say your a Bible and Bible only Doctrine, then use reams and reams of Ellen White quotes to prove your point! Or SDA dream up some fancy pancy methods like "point and go" or some other such dribble methods as being Bible only.

This practice does not go on in just isolated situations. This has been the "pattern and practice" of the SDA Church from "top to bottom" for decades if not for over a hundred years!

I know this to be true because I have personally born witness to such things from the top of SDA kingdom to the lowest pew sitter in the smallest SDA company!

[ClubV12]

I understand that YOU don't get it miz3, YOU have little understanding of any concept of the SDA church.

As for others, it's simple, Ellen White is not a test of faith. And boy do I get tired of professed SDA's telling me I have to keep quiet about her work. Grow a backbone you guys, shout it from the roof top. Who are these uncircumcised Philistines that demean the Lords chosen messenger? And where did I put my sling...

miz3, your not a Seventh-day Adventist on SO many levels, EGW is the tip of the ice berg.