No Prophetic Time after 1844

[hch]

"the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits."

This is the latter rain and loud cry.

sky

Note Strong's

And such as do wickedly <07561> (8688) against the covenant <01285> shall he corrupt <02610> (8686) by flatteries <02514>: but the people <05971> that do know <03045> (8802) their God <0430> shall be strong <02388> (8686), and <06213> (8804) [do exploits is an added ].

"and <06213> (8804)"=

1a) (Qal)

1a1) to do, work, make, produce

1a1a) to do

1a1b) to work

1a1c) to deal (with)

1a1d) to act, act with effect, effect

1a2) to make

1a2a) to make

1a2b) to produce

1a2c) to prepare

1a2d) to make (an offering)

1a2e) to attend to, put in order

1a2f) to observe, celebrate

1a2g) to acquire (property)

1a2h) to appoint, ordain, institute

1a2i) to bring about

1a2j) to use

1a2k) to spend, pass

Take the passage in question and fill in the blank with any of the appropriate suggestions from the word study from Strong above consider those in bold type:

And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and______

[Overaged]

quote=skyblue888]"the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits."

This is the latter rain and loud cry.

sky /quote]

Note Strong's

And such as do wickedly <07561> (8688) against the covenant <01285> shall he corrupt <02610> (8686) by flatteries <02514>: but the people <05971> that do know <03045> (8802) their God <0430> shall be strong <02388> (8686), and <06213> (8804) [do exploits is an added ].

1a1d) to act, act with effect, effect

Take the passage in question and fill in the blank with any of the appropriate suggestions from the word study from Strong above consider those in bold type:

And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and______

[hch]

It is extremely important that when doing "word studies" that we do not miss out on context. It is actually, only the word "exploits" that is added in this verse, as in vs 28 where the same word is added by translators. A word added by translators, in scripture, is not always wrong either. I believe some of them are inspired of and allowed by God. The way I have always looked at this verse 32 is to, as hch says "fill in the blank." So after "the people that do know their God shall be strong and do" ________ I filled in the blank by saying they will "act with effect." This is the most accurate and contextual way I have seen yet, for this portion of Daniel 11:32.

The word "do" can easily be replaced by the word "act" without changing the word meaning, or context. It is important for us to realize that during these tumultous times spoken of by the prophet Daniel; God's people will "act with effect" in delivering and explaining the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are passages in Daniel 7 & 8 which correspond nicely with 11:32, making it all part of the same prophecy. We can count on God's Word to be consistent; and we can look forward to His promises "acting with effect" during a time of international crises as yet unsurpassed by anything in history.

You are correct that exploits is the only word added to the text. But if all of the possible meaning of the word signified by the number <06213> (8804)are considered; the removal of the added word and leaving do does not allow for all of the possibilities to be considered. Yes "and do acts", but "and do produce"?

the word do was an appropriate choice when exploits was thought to be the meaning that Daniel was conveying. When other meanings are considered, the do is not appropriate.

1) to do, fashion, accomplish, make

1a) (Qal)

1a1) to do, work, make, produce

1a1a) to do

1a1b) to work

1a1c) to deal (with)

1a1d) to act, act with effect, effect

1a2) to make

1a2a) to make

1a2b) to produce

1a2c) to prepare

1a2d) to make (an offering)

1a2e) to attend to, put in order

1a2f) to observe, celebrate

1a2g) to acquire (property)

1a2h) to appoint, ordain, institute

1a2i) to bring about

1a2j) to use

1a2k) to spend, pass

32 And such as do wickedly <07561> (8688) against the covenant <01285> shall he corrupt <02610> (8686) by flatteries <02514>: but the people <05971> that do know <03045> (8802) their God <0430> shall be strong <02388> (8686), and prepare <06213>.

words added by the translators are added to convey what they think is being said in the passage. These words are only correct as far as the translators understand what they are translating.

So often Daniel is interpreted as saying this OR that when he is actually saying both this AND that. Thus when translators and Bible students fall into the dogmatic view that Daniel meant this and not that, they slant his words to fit their notions and overlook half of what Daniel actually meant.

A great example of this is Daniel 7:9 "thrones were cast down" "thrones were set in place."

In the context of the sea-beast, the papacy its thrones were cast down over all the churches by the Reformation and over the state in 1798 by the French.

In the context of the earth-beast, America, its thrones were being put in place specifically in the Louisiana Territory that the USA purchased from France in 1803.

And in Heaven thrones were being put in place for the commencement of the Investigative Judgment.

Thus to pick and choose a "favorite" meaning is to discount the value of the other events that were transpiring as Daniel's prophecy was meeting its fulfillment in conjunction with Revelation 10 that clearly identifies the time-frame (1844 great disappointment). At that time it is declared that God created the earth, sea, and Heaven and the things that are therein, which includes the thrones. Thus choosing what man thinks Daniel was saying is not always the right way to read Daniel.

[hch]

Daniel 11:45 is not that complicated.

sky

I refrained from commenting on your post, until I got into studying Daniel verse by verse again.

Actually what I wrote was not complicated, it was much more up-to-date Present Truth then your comment.

But sharing progressive light that is shining on Daniel 11 was not well received.

As I read your comments however, they cast a shadow over the progression of light unto light (Present Truth) and turn the reader back to the light of the past that was not as complete as that which is shining today.

[hch]

Truth is progressive; and those who are preparing for the last great day will go forward in accordance with the accumulated light which shines upon them from the prophecies and from the lessons of Christ and the apostles. No one will be condemned in the Day of Judgment because of a lack of knowledge which he never had an opportunity to obtain. The light which never shone upon him will never be his darkness. The truth which God’s messengers have presented by pen and by voice, the treasures of the word of God which they have opened to the people, the light which has penetrated the darkened chambers of the mind, will, if rejected, be witnesses against them in the last great day. The testimony which will come with condemning power upon the sinner, and which will close his mouth before God and testify of his guilt, is the fact that he saw the light, but for various reasons in harmony with the carnal heart, would not receive it. He would not receive the truth that was given to save him. The greater the light, the greater the obligations…(RH, January 5, 1886 par. 6 ).

[hch]

The history which the great I AM has marked out in His word, uniting link after link in the prophetic chain, from eternity in the past to eternity in the future, tells us where we are today in the procession of the ages, and what may be expected in the time to come.

[Overaged]

Present Truth is PROGRESSIVE, but in 1888 Present Truth was rejected and it looks like it is happening again. The wait and see attitude that prevailed in Noah's day is alive and well. And the consequences are as certain now as they were then.

[ClubV12]

An entirely new twist on the "1335 Futurists" concept of end times.

And entirely "off the wall"...

[skyblue888]

"The history which the great I AM has marked out in His word, uniting link after link in the prophetic chain, from eternity in the past to eternity in the future, tells us where we are today in the procession of the ages, and what may be expected in the time to come." E.G. White

__________________________

The 2,300 day prophecy takes us to Oct.22, 1844 when God the Father and Christ pass from the holy to the most holy place of the sanctuary above. Through a simple parable spoken 2,000 years ago the Lord tells us where we are today in the procession of the ages and what may be expected in the time to come.

1844: beginning of the enactment of the parable of Matt.22 and of the wise and foolish virgins and of the wheat and tares and of the net... Jesus enters the most holy place to begin investigative judgment preceding a wedding which is to take place in Heaven... (see G.C.427-8) the people of God are invited to follow Him by faith... but there is a delay... (see G.C.457,458)

1888 First call of the parable to the Advent people,,, the call is rejected... 1903 Gospel Order again put aside and replaced by the devisings of men...

1955-1957 Crucifixion of the messages entrusted to us as a people by making concessions to the world regarding the pillars of our faith.

We are now living in the time of the second call of the parable,,, the professed people of God to be re-visited with the 1888 message of righteousness by faith in the merits of Christ and the call to reorganize according to the 1901 Gospel Order...

The parable says that this second call will also be rejected followed by a great persecution (bearers of the message character-assassinated); Natinal Sunday Law,,, third call is the loud cry to the world... the bearers of the message are forced to turn to the world with their last message of mercy.

When the mission of the Gospel is completed, end of the loud cry, great final test (death decree), judgment of the living, final atonement, final seal, probation closes, time of Jacob's trouble begins, great time of trouble for the wicked, God's people delivered at the time of the fifth plague as they are threatened with the execution of the death decree,,, God intervenes,,, the wicked fall at their feet and aknowledge that God has loved those who have remained faithful to Him,,, sixth plague, the wicked all agree to put the blame on false shepherds for their being lost eternally,,, strife and bloodshed everywhere, Babylon the great is destroyed,,, none to help her then,,, (Dan.11:45 fulfilled) hail and great earthquake follow, the faithful people of God are translated, resurrection of the great multitude, second coming of Christ...

sky

[hch]

6 ton school bus sized satellite is going to plung into the earth within the next several days

compared it to Revelation 8

Just before the seven plagues fall Revelation gives a caveat to explain what lead up to them

In the context of Daniel and Revelation explaining themselves by their fulfillment and the command in revelation 10 "thou must prophesy again."

Revelation 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Note the punctuation change "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth and the third part; of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."

The earth in Bible prophecy is America. It was formed by three parts. Eastern states, Louisiana Territory, and absorption of Texas that had been an independent nation.

Texas (1/3 of the components forming the earth/America) is just getting a wildfire sparked by lightning (fire cast upon the earth) under control. That fire has especially burned oily trees like cedar that increased the intensity of the blaze and vast grass lands.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

The word mountain is from a root that means to rise and to fall. America launched (like a mountain rising) a satellite into orbit that weigh about 6 tons and is the size of a school bus. It is due to fall (like a mountain going down) this week and hit the earth.

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

This brings back to mind the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico last year with crude oil flowing uncontrolled to the surface and looking like blood on the tide. I wonder where that satellite is going to hit and what damage it is going to do.

We will soon see.

Blessings

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

Present Truth is PROGRESSIVE, but in 1888 Present Truth was rejected and it looks like it is happening again. The wait and see attitude that prevailed in Noah's day is alive and well. And the consequences are as certain now as they were then.

If it's so progressive; then stop making it "replacement therapy" for everyone.

[hch]

An entirely new twist on the "1335 Futurists" concept of end times.

And entirely "off the wall"...

[hch]

I will still check in with you folks from time to time over the next few days, but a diet of constant unbelief drains the soul.

Wednesday, I will be separating myself from the cares of this world to spend some quality time with those who are most important to me. Lord willing after being refreshed, I will be ready to go forward and share the Joy of Jesus.

Pray for the Latter Rain, lest you miss the blessing.

[ClubV12]

Henry, sadly the "unbelief" of which you speak lays at your own door. "We" all accept the idea of progressive truth and new light and understanding of old light with new understanding.

What you propose here is NOT something Ellen White would approve. You have moved FAR into the realm of "fanaticism". Your setting dates, something she strongly warned against.

Brother, I sincerely appeal to you, your on very dangerous ground with the wild assumptions and singular interpretations. Bring it to the brethren, if they don't accept it, lay it to one side until the truth becomes apparent to more than just one or two.

[hch]

Henry, sadly the "unbelief" of which you speak lays at your own door. "We" all accept the idea of progressive truth and new light and understanding of old light with new understanding.

What you propose here is NOT something Ellen White would approve. You have moved FAR into the realm of "fanaticism". Your setting dates, something she strongly warned against.

Brother, I sincerely appeal to you, your on very dangerous ground with the wild assumptions and singular interpretations. Bring it to the brethren, if they don't accept it, lay it to one side until the truth becomes apparent to more than just one or two.

[ClubV12]

Henry says,

"The Lord has blessed me with an understanding of their fulfillment..."

The Lord does not bless one or two men here and there independant of the brethren. This per Sister White. Are there any others who share your view, or are you the singular watchman on the wall?

I stand not alone in giving the warning, to you. There are others giving the trumpet a clear and distinct sound that you may be warned of your error's if your persist in standing alone.

[Overaged]

Mrs. White did not agree with your view that is misunderstanding the progression of light.

Originally Posted By: EGW

The truth of God is progressive; it is always onward' date=' going from strength to a greater strength, from light to a greater light. We have every reason to believe that the Lord will send us increased truth, for a great work is yet to be done. In our knowledge of truth, there is first a beginning in our understanding of it, then a progression, then completion …. Much has been lost because our ministers and people have concluded that we have had all the truth essential for us as a people; but such a conclusion is erroneous and in harmony with the deceptions of Satan; for truth will be constantly unfolding. (ST, May 26, 1890 par. 2, bold and coloration added)/quote']

Your view is out of step with the Bible also.

Originally Posted By: EGW

The study of the Revelation directs the mind to the prophecies of Daniel, and both present most important instruction, given of God to men, concerning events to take place at the close of this world’s history.

Henry; where did I say I "have need of nothing?" I said no such thing.

"Present truth" might be "progressive;" but it is also PRESENT...note this word carefully. I don't think you used it correctly here at all.

What I have been saying here is that you are allowing your pet, "private interpretation" to actually change truths already given; and this is always expressly forbidden in both the Bible, and the spirit of prophecy. You are using what YOU only call "new light;" to embellish certain negative perceptions you have of the Church.

You have distorted the "catholic procession" dream to implicate things about the church which Ellen White or the Bible would never back up in a million years.

Quote:

The Church May Appear as About to Fall

The shaking of God blows away multitudes like dry leaves.--4T 89 (1876). {LDE 180.1}

Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat.--5T 81 (1882). {LDE 180.2}

Soon God's people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal. . . . {LDE 180.3}

When the religion of Christ is most held in contempt, when His law is most despised, then should our zeal be the warmest and our courage and firmness the most unflinching. To stand in defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the battles of the Lord when champions are few--this will be our test. At this time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their cowardice, and loyalty from their treason.--5T 136 (1882). {LDE 180.4}

The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.--2SM 380 (1886). {LDE 180.5}

As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.--GC 608 (1911). {LDE 180.6}

God's Faithful Will Be Revealed

The Lord has faithful servants who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the daytime we look toward heaven but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster.--5T 80, 81 (1882). {LDE 181.1}

On every occasion that persecution takes place, the witnesses make decisions, either for Christ or against Him. Those who show sympathy for the men wrongly condemned, who are not bitter against them, show their attachment for Christ.--ST Feb. 20, 1901. {LDE 181.2}

Let opposition arise, let bigotry and intolerance again bear sway, let persecution be kindled, and the half-hearted and hypocritical will waver and yield the faith; but the true Christian will stand firm as a rock, his faith stronger, his hope brighter than in days of prosperity.--GC 602 (1911). {LDE 181.3}

[/quote']

[ClubV12]

Many have said and will say they are led by the Holy Spirit. A statement that is loosing much of it's power from over use and use by those who are CLEARLY not led by the Spirit.

How then shall we know when one makes this claim? Applying basic principles, which IS following the Spirits lead!!!

To the law and the Testimony, if they speak not according to the word. We compare "new light" to the law AND the Testimony, if it's not in complete harmony we must reject it. THIS is how the Spirit leads.

Henry, your doctrine fails when compared to the counsel we have been given, it is not in harmony with the law and the testimony.

[skyblue888]

I agree that we must bring everything to the law and to the testimonies. That's all that is needed. Truth does not depend upon how many believe it? Someone may speak according to the law and to the testimonies and find himself pretty much alone. That's what happened to most of the prophets of old and that's what happened to Jesus, the greatest of the prophets, and that's what happened to the Reformers.

Do you know what Martin Luther said to those who argued that it was impossible that he alone be in the right while all the great men of Christendom were in the wrong. He said to them, "You have more to fear because I am alone and you are many."

"Those to whom the message of truth is spoken seldom ask, ' Is it true?' but, ' By whom is it advocated?' Multitudes estimate it by the numbers who accept it; and the question is still asked, 'Have any of the learned men or religious leaders believed?' Men are no more favorable to real godliness now than in the days of Christ. They are just as intently seeking earthly good, to the neglect of eternal riches; and it is not an argument against the truth, that large numbers are not ready to accept it, or that it is not received by the world's great men, or even by the religious leaders." D.A.459,460.

sky

[ClubV12]

While it is certainly possible "one man" will bear "new light" the idea of "one man" raises substantial red warning flags! The general principles we have from Sister White is that "new light" is not given to one man. We see that principle applied over and over by the pioneers. Hiram Edson preceeded Sister White in the truth of the Investigative Judgment as one example. Each point confirmed as the foundation was through the work of a diverse group of brethren. Her counsel is to bring "new light" to the brethren for consideration, wise advice.

Will "one man" bring the message? Possible, but it needs to be very carefully considered. Will the majority rule then be the ultimate test? Of course not.

Henry's theology is faily radical in it's approach. Such a distinct departure, proclaimed as "new light" and the author making claims as "being led by the Holy Spirit" warrant exceeding caution.

For instance, EVERY single person, the original author, of the "1335 Futurist" groups (there are many) make the same claim. Led by the Spirit, often citing the very qoutes Sky just posted. The brethren will not hear, their in apostasy or whatever. SO many voices, SO divided on the specifics. The whole concept becomes "Babylon"! If there IS any truth, it is buried pretty deep. Which "one man", led of the Spirit, shall we then believe?

The concept Henry presents in this thread are nothing more than yet another version of the "1335 Futurist" beliefs. It bears the same pattern, "one man" standing alone, proclaiming "present truth". In GENERAL that is NOT consistent with how the Holy Spirit brings "new light". Especially concerning the setting of end time dates.

This is a subject that is BEGGING to be resolved by the "counsel of the brethren", it warrants careful consideration. I reject Henrys counsel as yet another single voice declaring, as so many do, "Here, I have the light, the Lord has revealed it to me." To you and you alone? I don't think so.

One consistent spirit I see in the proclamation of the "1335 Futurist" is the complete LACK of "mercy on those who doubt" as Jude put it. Instead what I have found is that those who would question the message are "put down" and dismissed as "blind and in need of nothing". This is NOT the spirit the messenger should have, it is NOT the spirit of the Holy Spirit. Come let us reason together, with an open heart and mind, not a "believe it or die" attitude. Not with claims that those who doubt are poor bible students or ignorant of truth. The "spirit" is akin to that of the evil doer, not that of God. Law, Testimony AND FRUIT. The "fruit" of this group stinks, it smells rotten, just from the delivery stand point. By their fruits ye shall know them.

[skyblue888]

I wasn't reflecting upon Henry's messages per se but upon a principle. I do not agree with Henry's private interpretations any more than you do and you know it. What I am afraid of is that someday we may be rejecting truth just because the leading brethren do not agree with it. When the brethren do not agree with a message that stands the test of the law and the testimonies, we are to receive that message even if it means to be alone. The word of God and the testimonies of His Spirit are to be our counsellors, not men. If there is anything that the history of the church in every age has taught us, it is that. Judging from what you have stated, you would have had serious problems with Jesus or Luther if you had lived in their day.

Time and circumstances must be taken into consideration.

sky

[Overaged]

I wasn't reflecting upon Henry's messages per se but upon a principle. I do not agree with Henry's private interpretations any more than you do and you know it. What I am afraid of is that someday we may be rejecting truth just because the leading brethren do not agree with it. When the brethren do not agree with a message that stands the test of the law and the testimonies, we are to receive that message even if it means to be alone. The word of God and the testimonies of His Spirit are to be our counsellors, not men. If there is anything that the history of the church in every age has taught us, it is that. Judging from what you have stated, you would have had serious problems with Jesus or Luther if you had lived in their day.

Time and circumstances must be taken into consideration.

sky

There is not much emphasis on the one man alone thing in the Bible. One Bible prophet thought he was the only believer left; and God said he was mistaken; that there were hundreds of others. Too often the one man alone deal is proffered as an excuse to say and believe whatever we feel like it, regardless of the wise counsel of others at times.

[ClubV12]

Your point is well taken Sky, I think we are both presenting a balanced view on the subject, independant of Henrys specific counsel. Which we can use for an example of one side of the discussion.

OA, I concur, a "one man" presentation is a serious concern.

[Lysimachus]

The main problem with HCH's interpretations is that they are extremely difficult to understand. A lot of confusion. Now someone like Roosenberg's interpretations are easy to make sense out of. God's prophecies are meant to be understood by the general public. One must be a scholar to make heads or tails out of Henry's interpretations. But I find his interpretations to be very distracting away from our core teachings. If I were to take what HCH is presenting, and present it to a Futurist, the Futurist would soon discover that my beliefs have no bearings, and are a fusion of Historicism and Futurism all mixed together.

[ClubV12]

Lysimachus, the primary reason I use the term "1335 Futurist" is to separate it from classic "Futurist" view. "1335's" are almost exclusively Adventists advising Adventists. It's an inside job... :)