No Prophetic Time after 1844

[Lysimachus]

When we start focusing on putting the time prophecies into the future, we mar our credibility with the evangelical world. I've seen where often they accuse us of having a "salad" of theology, and nothing standardized. That we constantly "modify" our beliefs, and are inconsistent. If we are going to become beacons of light to the Futurist/evangelical world, we need to be consistent in our theology.

Remember, they may accuse us of being "preterists". But when they say this, don't let them get away with this foolishness. A past event does NOT necessarily equate preterism!! The true definition of "preterism" places the time prophecies PRIOR to the establishment of the Papacy in the Dark Ages. Preterism puts the fulfillment of prophecy during Pagan Rome. So ANY past fulfilled prophecy that occurs after fall of the Roman Empire cannot be considered or recognized as Preterist in any form or fashion.

[Overaged]

Ellen wrote: “Study the Revelation in connection with Daniel; for history will be repeated.” (SpTA07 55.1) But as the widely accepted private interpretation tears our position on prophetic time from its context, it also tears the repeating of prophetic history from the very prophecies that predict the history. It asserts: The history will be repeated but not the prophecy.

Is history independent of the prophecy that foretold it? Since prophecy predicts the history, when the prophecy repeats, the history repeats.

[Overaged]

When we start focusing on putting the time prophecies into the future, we mar our credibility with the evangelical world. I've seen where often they accuse us of having a "salad" of theology, and nothing standardized. That we constantly "modify" our beliefs, and are inconsistent.

I am not trying to be rude; but why should we strive at the gnat of "earning credibilility" with the evangelical world, or any other world? Is that the purpose of our message?

PS And what specifically would you mean by this "credibility?"

[hch]

So, it looks like HCH is yet another "1335 Futurist", apply a portion of the 2,300 year prophecy to a future event.

Sister White is VERY clear on this subject:

The 1,260 and the 1,335 already happened, there are in the past, done.

[Overaged]

And if you read her writings a little closer, she says that they will have a final fulfillment. But that was discussed earlier on this thread.

[hch]

When we start focusing on putting the time prophecies into the future, we mar our credibility with the evangelical world. I've seen where often they accuse us of having a "salad" of theology, and nothing standardized. That we constantly "modify" our beliefs, and are inconsistent. If we are going to become beacons of light to the Futurist/evangelical world, we need to be consistent in our theology.

[ClubV12]

Typically these "off shoot" 1335 Futurists, who are also typically believers in Marion Berry (one of the original 1335 Futurists) claim to fully support the 2,300 year prophecy and prophess a deep belief in Ellen White.

The fact is, they subtlely cast doubt on the 2,300 year prophecy by moving portions of it to the future, thus causing confusion and implying that pioneers were "close" but they still didn't get it right.

Claims such as "Ellen White says there will be a final fulfillment" are so out of context as to constitue a direct lie, a significant departure from the truth. By separating a 1335 DAY time period from the 2,300 and placing it in the future it makes null and void any claim to "support the 2,300 year prophecy". You simply cannot have a dual application.

Though I would post a hundred bible verses and quote Sister White fluently they will not see through the error. I did find an interesting common thread among this group, consider this carefully: They will, at some point, declare the bible and the bible only must be used to interpret prophecy. The reasoning is that in the end that is all we can rely on. Certainly sounds noble, the end result is "MAKING OF NO EFFECT" the Spirit of Prophecy. God gave us a messenger so we COULD understand prophecy. Remove the SOP and you have no valid basis to understand prophecy. THIS is why Adventists are NOT Baptists!!!

Where there is no vision, the people perish.

[John317]

[John317]

[John317]

When we start focusing on putting the time prophecies into the future, we mar our credibility with the evangelical world. I've seen where often they accuse us of having a "salad" of theology, and nothing standardized. That we constantly "modify" our beliefs, and are inconsistent. If we are going to become beacons of light to the Futurist/evangelical world, we need to be consistent in our theology.

Remember, they may accuse us of being "preterists". But when they say this, don't let them get away with this foolishness. A past event does NOT necessarily equate preterism!! The true definition of "preterism" places the time prophecies PRIOR to the establishment of the Papacy in the Dark Ages. Preterism puts the fulfillment of prophecy during Pagan Rome. So ANY past fulfilled prophecy that occurs after fall of the Roman Empire cannot be considered or recognized as Preterist in any form or fashion.

Well worth posting again.

[hch]

“Study the Revelation in connection with Daniel; for history will be repeated.” (SpTA07 55.1)

[ClubV12]

"We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged." {16MR 208.3}

Manuscript Releases, Volume 16

1335 Futurists do one of two things with this quote: Twist the CLEAR and OBVIOUS meaning, thus making it void, or (more commonly) ignore it altogether. You won't often see it in the published literature or talked about much.

[Overaged]

Nothing you have posted proves what I have challenged you with. I wonder if you could even do this topic, without the writings of Ellen White to distort? I wonder what would happen here if you had just the Bible to "prove" your point. Sister White never intended her writings to be used/abused as you are doing here

Quote:

The first number of the Testimonies ever published contains a warning against the injudicious use of the light which is thus given to God's people. I stated that some had taken an unwise course; when they had talked their faith to unbelievers, and the proof had been asked for, they had read from my writings instead of going to the Bible for proof. It was shown me that this course was inconsistent and would prejudice unbelievers against the truth. The Testimonies can have no weight with those who know nothing of their spirit. They should not be referred to in such cases. {CCh 95.2}

Nothing wrong with "accusing the brethren" IF the accusation is warranted. The Bible tells us to "judge righteous judgment;" so it's not wrong to say something is wrong.

[John317]

Yes, the prophet of God was obviously saying that the 1335 days were in the past. That is, after all, what all the other SDAs of that time believed.

Otherwise it would mean Ellen White wrote that she told this man the SDAs were wrong and that this had little effect on him. We can be sure it doesn't mean that.

[hch]

The book of Revelation repeats the prophecies of Daniel - but only in the sense of enlarging, building upon, and explaining.

In the same context; we see events unfolding today that repeat, enlarge and explain many of the Bible's prophecies. But there are no new dates to be had, no matter how much you fiddle with numbers. What you say here is so confusing; I don't know how you can claim to make any sense out of it.

[Overaged]

quote=EGW]In the last days .... Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months....

[Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] {19MR 282.1}

Brother,

In case you did not notice it EGW states that the 42 months were fulfilled in the past from 538-1798. And in the context here, she is saying that in the last days the final fulfillment of revelation 13:5 will take place which includes the 42-months that she cites elsewhere to have been fulfilled.

[Overaged]

Quote:

The problem is not with the prophecy, but that you have not studied it carefully

My oh my; what lovely elipses you have....the only problem with using them in this case is that they obscure the correct context of the quote you use to "prove" a pet peeve. Here is the quote without the elipses:

Quote:

In the last days Satan will appear as an angel of light, with great power and heavenly glory, and claim to be the Lord of the whole earth. He will declare that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh to the first day of the week; and as lord of the first day of the week he will present this spurious sabbath as a test of loyalty to him. Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] {19MR 282.1}

In connection with this scripture, the entire fourteenth chapter of Revelation should be studied much by God's people. Verses nine to eleven bring to view the special message of warning against worshiping the beast and his image, and receiving his mark in the forehead or in the hand. This warning is to be given to the world by those who are mentioned in the twelfth verse as keeping "the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." {19MR 282.2}

Christ is the first and the last, the beginning and the end of the creation of God. Those who sincerely work for the salvation of souls will improve their capabilities to the utmost; and as they work unselfishly, they will have Divine assistance.--Ms 153, 1902.

The same "divine assistance" that was given to God's people in prophecies which have already happened, will be repeated as the nations and all the prophecies COLLECTIVELY and in unison roll into the final episode of the prophecy where Jesus said "no man knows the hour." No prophecy will be "repeated" only the divine assistance God gave to the prophets of Old. No new dates or numbers are depicted or needed.

[hch]

Brother,

You have made conclusions below that do not express my views and twisted them from their moorings to fit your objections.

So often these straw man arguments are used by honest Christians that don't realize the sin of it.

They build a case that is totally preposterous and knock it down with logic that is so true that the truth of it cannot be disputed. Then they link truth that they do not embrace to their straw man and conclude that because the straw man was obviously erroneous that the position that they are refuting must be in error as well.

That is bearing false witness as sure as telling a bold face lie. This lie is not against His Child or something he teaches. It is against the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy and their Author.

You may not read the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy the same way that I do, but if I am in error it is your obligation to reason with me and show me from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy what you think I need to reconsider.

But to take truth and link it to an error and trample it down is a sin of which you would do well to repent lest it mar your record in the Heavenly Sanctuary. I have prayed that God will forgive you and bring you to a knowledge of the severity of this matter.

All prophecy has a final fulfillment that culminates at Christ's Advent, "The sure word of prophecy will meet its final fulfillment in the glorious advent of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as King of kings and Lord of lords. . . ."

But what is a final fulfillment? If man considers a prophecy to have been fulfilled prematurely and the fulfillment cited by man is but a partial fulfillment because man did not notice that the fulfillment that they embrace did not fulfill all the particulars of the prophecy: man will have pronounced an unfulfilled prophecy as having been fulfilled.

And not all prophecy is ABOUT Christ's Advent; for example: Isaiah prophesied to King Hezekiah that he would die from a boil. Yes, some prophecies have what appears to be multiple fulfillments until they have their final fulfillment: the fulfillment that is ordained of God to be the complete fulfillment. But when Christ Comes, the prophecies that were to "repeat" before His Advent will all have been fulfilled. As it is written in the word of God, so it will be whether everyone understands it or believes it or not.

Christian regards

His child Henry

Originally Posted By: hch

And if you read her writings a little closer, she says that they will have a final fulfillment. But that was discussed earlier on this thread.

Well; I am no expert, but I have learned the basics.

Prophecy is not well understood by the best of us; it seems like you are saying that you believe that a "final fulfillment" of a given prophecy always means the specific prophecy will DEFINITELY be repeated. To me this goes against the general tenor and history of prophecy, thwarting the very purpose and design thereof by God.

While it's true that all prophecy has a "final fulfillment;" it does not follow that the prophecy will be repeated; but it does lead to a fulfillment. All prophecies lead to the same fulfillment:

Quote:

We must cherish and cultivate the faith of which prophets and apostles have testified--the faith that lays hold on the promises of God and waits for deliverance in His appointed time and way. The sure word of prophecy will meet its final fulfillment in the glorious advent of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as King of kings and Lord of lords. . . . With the prophet who endeavored to encourage Judah in a time of unparalleled apostasy, let us confidently declare, "The Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him." Let us ever hold in remembrance the cheering message, "The vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come." {CC 242.5}

Notice too that the Bible tells us how in the end the vision shall speak; but that doesn't mean it isn't speaking now because in Daniel 9, we are told to "consider the vision."

If what you say is true; then Christ would come again multiple times, and there would be no way for the "final fulfillment" to finally ocurr. Bible prophecy repeats only in the sense of enlarging, expanding, explaing further, a prophecy already given. The prophecy in Revelation; considers and builds upon the same ones introduced to us in Daniel.

The 2300 year prophecy cannot possibly be true if what you say here is true.

Quote:

The ruin of Jerusalem was a symbol of the final ruin that shall overwhelm the world. The prophecies that received a partial fulfillment in the overthrow of Jerusalem have a more direct application to the last days. We are now standing on the threshold of great and solemn events. A crisis is before us, such as the world has never witnessed. And sweetly to us, as to the first disciples, comes the assurance that God’s kingdom ruleth over all. The program of coming events is in the hands of our Maker. The Majesty of heaven has the destiny of nations, as well as the concerns of His church, in His own charge. The divine Instructor is saying to every agent in the accomplishment of His plans, as He said to Cyrus, “I girded thee, though thou hast not known Me.” Isaiah 45:5. {Pr 303.1}

In the vision of the prophet Ezekiel there was the appearance of a hand beneath the wings of the cherubim. This is to teach His servants that it is divine power which gives them success. Those whom God employs as His messengers are not to feel that His work is dependent upon them. Finite beings are not left to carry this burden of responsibility. He who slumbers not, who is continually at work for the accomplishment of His designs, will carry forward His own work. He will thwart the purposes of wicked men, and will bring to confusion the counsels of those who plot mischief against His people. He who is the King, the Lord of hosts, sitteth between the cherubim, and amid the strife and tumult of nations He guards His children still. He who ruleth in the heavens is our Saviour. He measures every trial, He watches the furnace fire that must test every soul. When the strongholds of kings shall be overthrown, when the arrows of wrath shall strike through the hearts of His enemies, His people will be safe in His hands. {Pr 303.2}

“Thine, O Lord, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is Thine. . . . In Thine hand is power and might; and in Thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.” 1 Chronicles 29:11, 12. {Pr 303.3}

*[This chapter appears in Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing, pages 102-122.]

[hch]

"We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged." {16MR 208.3}

Manuscript Releases, Volume 16

1335 Futurists do one of two things with this quote: Twist the CLEAR and OBVIOUS meaning, thus making it void, or (more commonly) ignore it altogether. You won't often see it in the published literature or talked about much.

The Hewett question has come up form time to time so I posed it to the EGWhite Estates and followed up with a question "What did Hewett teach?" So as to clarify the ambiguity of EGW comment.

Here is their reply with the annotation:

Dear Brother _,

Thank you for contacting the Ellen G. White Estate. Here is what I have sent to others who asked this question:

Other than in places where Mrs. White quotes a longer passage in Daniel which includes mention of the 1335 days, I know of only one reference to the 1335 days in her writings, though it appears in several places in her published writings (and on the CD-ROM). Here it is:

Manuscript Releases Volume Sixteen, p. 208

Title: To the Church in Brother Hastings' House

One week ago, last Sabbath, we had a very interesting meeting. Brother Hewit from Dead River was there. He came with a message to the effect that the destruction of the wicked and the sleep of the dead was an abomination within a shut door that a woman Jezebel, a prophetess had brought in and he believed that I was that woman, Jezebel. We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged.

This comes from Ellen G. White's Letter 28, 1850. She did not elaborate further here on the matter of the 1335 days.

The question for us is, Is the reference to the 1335 days part of the list of errors of Brother Hewit, or is it a correction to one of those errors? In other words, do we read the sentence as, "We told him of some of his errors in the past, [including the one] that the 1335 days were ended . . .", or do we read it as, "We told him of some of his errors in the past, [and] that the 1335 days were ended . . ."? If we understand her statement the first way, she is saying that in 1850 the 1335 days were not yet ended. If we take her statement the second way, she is asserting that they were already ended. Which way is it?

I believe that we should understand this statement in the second of the two ways--as an assertion from her that the 1335 days were already ended. I base this belief on two lines of evidence. First, a quick scan of the "Words of the Pioneers" database on our CD-ROM, which gives us convenient access to the writings of many other early Adventists (Seventh-day and otherwise), revealed that William Miller and Uriah Smith both taught that the 1335 days began at the same time as the 1290 days, that is, in AD 508. This would bring them to a close in the year 1843-1844. James White affirmed the same interpretation in the Review and Herald in the 1850s (and perhaps beyond, but the "Words of the Pioneers" thus far only takes the Review to 1863). So both before and after this statement by Mrs. White in 1850, prominent leaders in the Advent movement, including her own husband, were saying that the 1335 years had ended. Shall we understand Mrs. White, then, to be calling this belief an error? If so, why didn't she rebuke it in James White and in Uriah Smith?

Second, we have Mrs. White's own statements about prophetic time. Three of the most relevant appear together in the recent compilation, "Last Day Events," pp. 35-36. Here they are:

No Time Prophecy Beyond 1844

I plainly stated at the Jackson camp meeting to these fanatical parties that they were doing the work of the adversary of souls; they were in darkness. They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. I there stated in public that the Lord had been pleased to show me that there would be no definite time in the message given of God since 1844.--2SM 73 (1885).

Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming.--10MR 270 (1888).

The people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time [Rev. 10:4-6], reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.--7BC 971 (1900).

In light of these two lines of evidence, I believe we are on firm ground if we read Mrs. White's statement in 1850 as affirming, not denying, that the 1335 years had ended.

I hope you will find this helpful. Thank you for writing. God bless.

--------

William Fagal

Annotations on Letter 28, 1850, from the forthcoming first volume of annotated letters and manuscripts of Ellen G. White:

A reference to the 1335-day prophecy of Daniel 12:12. The united position of Sabbatarian expositors during this and subsequent stages was that the 1335 day/year period had ended in 1843/1844. Ellen White’s statement here, however, if taken on its own, is rather ambiguous and could be taken as denying that the 1335 days had ended (and affirming that its fulfillment was still future). Some have cited this Ellen White letter to support the idea of a future literal 1335-day period just preceding the Second Advent. Such an interpretation of the vision, however, runs counter to Ellen White’s caution given just one month earlier “that God had not made a test of time since 1844, and that time never again will be a test” (Ms 15, 1850 [Oct. 23]). Therefore the alternative reading of the passage seems preferable, viz.: “We told him . . . that the 1335 days were ended.” This reading is confirmed if, in fact, “Brother Hewitt” is Oren Hewett of Dead River, Maine. Oren Hewett (Hewitt) wrote several supportive letters to The Bible Advocate in 1847, an Adventist paper that repeatedly set new times for the Second Advent, times often held to coincide with the ending of the 1335 days/years. It would therefore be understandable for Hewett, coming from The Bible Advocate background, to see the 1335 days stretching beyond 1844, and for Ellen White and the Sabbatarians to oppose him on this point.

I hope this is useful to you. God bless!

William Fagal

Associate Director

Ellen G. White Estate

12501 Old Columbia Pike

Silver Spring, MD 20904-6600 U.S.A.

[ClubV12]

Since I've been studying this issue, the "1335 Futurists" I've seen several attempts to discredit the plain statement Sister White makes as it regards the 1335. It is ended, over, not to be placed in the future. This is not a confusing statement in any regard.

Introducing ambiguity to this quote is "1335 Futurist" 101. They HAVE to get around this one to even begin to build a case. They cannot...

[Overaged]

You may not read the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy the same way that I do, but if I am in error it is your obligation to reason with me and show me from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy what you think I need to reconsider.

But what is a final fulfillment?

[John317]

...

I hope you will find this helpful. Thank you for writing. God bless.

William Fagal

hch, what are your conclusions on the basis of this letter and this information?

[hch]

"We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged." {16MR 208.3} [Letter 28, 1850]

Manuscript Releases, Volume 16

1335 Futurists do one of two things with this quote: Twist the CLEAR and OBVIOUS meaning, thus making it void, or (more commonly) ignore it altogether. You won't often see it in the published literature or talked about much.

[ClubV12]

I've studied this matter closely, I see it in an entirely different light, reading from the same sources.

The "fruit" of this message divideds the church, there is no unity in it at all. These issues have been brought before the GC, who has rejected them. The immediate response from "1335 Futurists" is to declare the Seventh-day Adventist general leadership as apostasy. Some make an outright call to stop paying tithe. Marion Berry, one of the early Futurists, cancelled her membership in the Adventist church. Much of this teaching is carried on in secret meetings, it is cloaked and lives in fear. Except for on the internet, where it's easy to be brave.

This is not a message to the world, the SINGLE target is Seventh-day Adventists.

Your posts on this thread are a testimony to just how confusing this delusion is. Truly, to any reasonable person, the logic you present is all over the map. It simply does not make any sense. The setting of all these various dates is in direct denial of the Spirit of Prophecy. The fear, the secrecy, the whispering, the notes handed off to someone in church when no one is looking, the "fruit", this thing is of the devil. There is no doubt about it.

[John317]

...In 1893 after all prophetic time has been presumed to have stopped, Ellen wrote this

Originally Posted By: EGW

In his vision of the last days Daniel inquired, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days" [Daniel 12:8-13]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days. {1SAT 225.5}

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" [Daniel 12:1-4].--Manuscript 50, 1893, September, 1893. (MR 900.33) {1SAT 226.1}

The context is that after EGW told Hewett in 1850 that the 1335 had been fulfilled, she linked them to a future fulfillment when Daniel was standing in his lot, which she said that he was doing in 1893 and she linked them to the time that would continue until Christ stood for His people at His Second Advent. This statement clearly puts the 1335-days after 1893.

The 1335 days as well as the 1290 days take us to the time of the end, which is when Daniel's book was to be unsealed. So those time periods don't reach beyond 1844 and certainly not after 1893. Daniel will be "standing in his lot" from now on until the second coming. But that doesn't mean the 1335 days reach to that time. The 1290 days are from 508 AD to 1798. The 1335 days reach from 508 AD to 1843. I don't believe there's any evidence that those time periods will again be fulfilled. I just don't find any evidence for it in either the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy.

But I don't have a close mind to it. I am open to evidence and reasoning in the Scriptures. I just have not yet seen any evidence for it that I consider persuasive.