No Prophetic Time after 1844

[hch]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

You should be focussing on the pillars that have been established and reaching out with this information to fallen Protestant churches. But when adding all the other stuff you are bringing in to the mix, you are not going to grasp their attention. They will be confused. This is where your passion and zeal should be--with affirming the prophetic landmarks that have been laid.

We have things yet to learn about the 144,000, the Three Angel's Messages, the 4th Angel of Revelation 18, the nature of the sealing, understanding deeper issues revolving the Mark of the Beast and the Seal of God, etc. etc. There is MUCH yet to learn about these things. And yes, there will be things to unlearn, but those things to "unlearn" surely won't include that which has been established!

Originally Posted By: hch

Some of that which has been established is trash that has crept into the church since 1844 and it is barring the door from letting the light from Heaven in.

The pillars are fine and the pegs and pins are in place. But the subtle additions and tweaks of interpretation that have on several instances changed the signpost to point in the wrong direction will be a catastrophe to the church.

I can agree with you in general terms here, but could you please explain, or give examples of, what you believe is the trash that has been establisehd in the church since 1844?

John 3:17,

This topic is one example. By misunderstanding the role of prophetic time in our movement, we have become satisfied with generalities rather than specifics. In fact most SDA's that I encounter prefer vague general prophecies than specific prophecies that prove that this is the time to awake and prepare to meet the Lord. Thus they can rest in their uncertainty and do their own thing because they don't "know" that this is the time to divest themselves of God's means. They can live the good life a while longer and then when it is to late and they have to give account for their stewardship, they will be among the rich men that hide themselves and wish that the rocks would...

Our church entered into a plan that allowed SDA's to join the military in the 70's. That is not Ellen's counsel.

A Christian woman once stopped at the door of our church and went back home. She had finally accepted the invitation to worship with us. But when she saw the low cut dresses and the high skirts of the women and girls entering the church, she turned away. Later she explained it to me "God does not want me to lower my standards so that I can go to a church that claims to have the truth."

Have you noticed the adornment with "modest" jewelry lately.

I was invited to a church in Collegedale not to long ago. The music was so loud that I got a headache and prayed that the service would end soon so I would not have to walk out.

Many cry peace and safety while saying that we can't know this or that prophetically when in fact it is known and they choose to remain in the dark.

Eating out on Sabbath.

If I would be candid, there are many things that I could cite in response to your question, but since it is so difficult to get the brethren to see the things that are staring them in the face, there is no benefit to agitate on other issues that Christ will soon sweep away.

When we look at the church and see the world, we should remember the counsel that the wheat and tares are to grow together. But in the shaking the chaff will be blown away

[ClubV12]

HCH, I understand what your saying and appreciate the straight testimony. Of course not all will hear it, perhaps only a few. Stay with it, those few are the reason we preach and teach to the many. As for me, I decided (just within the last few weeks) to stop looking at the church members for my lifestyle standards. I'm looking to the bible and the SOP for what it means to be a christian, how and what to pattern my life around. How to do that without offending anyone, without being to radical in my speech, behaviour, lifestyle. Without being "proud", self must die.

Being a new Seventh-day Adventist I have progressed out of the "honey moon" phase. Where life was thrilling with one new revelation of God's love after another! I'm entering a phase where it is time to get to know the Lord on a daily basis, like getting to now that new spouse. For the long haul, with a deepening but quieter and more stable love. To get serious about making the changes in my life to do that.

As it concerns finances Sister White has much to say about the subject, in particular those who have accumulated more than enough wealth and have treasured it up here on earth. Worse, those who sole aim is to increase that wealth to the negelect of Gods work, to the neglect of their personal christian walk. Or the neglect of that new church, school or project that needs funding. Good counsel comes from many sources and the Holy Spirit is not limited in how it gets disseminated. Certainly the internet is a powerful tool. It's ONE method, of many, where we can learn the truth. I would not advise anyone to empty their bank account or savings or sell their home without counsel from multiple sources. It is not yet time to do the "Millerite thing" and leave yourself dependant on the "church" for sustenance. Those with savings and investments, need to find a reasonable balance in how to put that money to work for the Lord.

Our Pastor just had a powerful sermon about "movies" and their danger. He was preaching the "law" and making it plain! Using the bible to drive home the message. And yet, he was doing it right along side righteouness by faith. I was so touched I quietly cried through much of that sermon, praising God. The straight truth, delivered with great love. We need more of that!

[hch]

You should be focussing on the pillars that have been established and reaching out with this information to fallen Protestant churches.

[hch]

I can agree with you in general terms here, but could you please explain, or give examples of, what you believe is the trash that has been establisehd in the church since 1844?

I gave you a superficial answer to this question because the Lord never called me to be an accuser of the brethren. What I wrote should be self evident. The more we study the word, the more we will see in ourselves and the church where we say one thing and do another or where we have departed from sound teachings. But pointing out faults won't correct them.

The Spirit of Prophecy has warnings and counsel, but still we stray from that path or reinterpret it to explain away a thus saith the Lord.

So rather than go off topic on a fault finding expedition, I gave the quick answer.

I have decided to review the book "Put-Out The Light" that is a complete up-to-date commentary on Daniel and not spend so much time online trying to rouse the saints. Laodicea is about to transition to the 10 virgins and we will see that what God has warned us of is as He said it would be.

It just breaks my heart that so many will be lost who if they had valued Jesus a little more could have been awakened sooner.

[ClubV12]

As I've noted before...

When I first started reading the Testimonies and sharing that and some of what I'd read with fellow church members I got a less than warm reception. More than one said the Testimonies were for research, you didn't actually need to read them. Some were immediately on gaurd if I mentioned a passage, their first thought being a "negative".

UPDATE:

Slowly, thats changing. Our young (just out of school) assistant Pastor mentioned, from the pulpit he is now reading them. His wife is reading them as well. Other church members are starting to ask about them. If this keeps up it might become a popular movement to read them! At least among some, a few, but then I wouldn't expect everyone to understand. What a relief for me, I was becoming a bit shy of mentioning them around the church for fear I might offend someone.

[Gordon1]

Welcome to the Lord's fan. club.

[skyblue888]

As I've noted before...

When I first started reading the Testimonies and sharing that and some of what I'd read with fellow church members I got a less than warm reception. More than one said the Testimonies were for research, you didn't actually need to read them. Some were immediately on gaurd if I mentioned a passage, their first thought being a "negative".

UPDATE:

Slowly, thats changing. Our young (just out of school) assistant Pastor mentioned, from the pulpit he is now reading them. His wife is reading them as well. Other church members are starting to ask about them. If this keeps up it might become a popular movement to read them! At least among some, a few, but then I wouldn't expect everyone to understand. What a relief for me, I was becoming a bit shy of mentioning them around the church for fear I might offend someone.

And if the pastor had not recommended reading them, what do you think would have happened?

This is just another problem in our churches. Only a very few study for themselves without being told what to do by the "pastor"

sky

[ClubV12]

I think the Pastor was yet another to grasp their significance. A few folks have been talking about it for awhile, it's become a topic of limited discussion. I think the Pastors comments expanded on it and it's becoming more openly discussed as a result.

,,,either way, I'm enjoying them immensly. I just picked up, yesterday, the book John mentioned here on the forum (thanks John). The leather bound all nine volumes in a single book. It looks very much like a bible, thin pages, smaller type, some nice notes about the history of various sections, some places to write in your own notes, a terrific appendix, some maps in the back. Whew, a really nice edition. A little pricey at $89 dollars, but far less than I used to spend on my car without a second thought! :)

[hch]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

As I've noted before...

When I first started reading the Testimonies and sharing that and some of what I'd read with fellow church members I got a less than warm reception. More than one said the Testimonies were for research, you didn't actually need to read them. Some were immediately on gaurd if I mentioned a passage, their first thought being a "negative".

UPDATE:

Slowly, thats changing. Our young (just out of school) assistant Pastor mentioned, from the pulpit he is now reading them. His wife is reading them as well. Other church members are starting to ask about them. If this keeps up it might become a popular movement to read them! At least among some, a few, but then I wouldn't expect everyone to understand. What a relief for me, I was becoming a bit shy of mentioning them around the church for fear I might offend someone.

And if the pastor had not recommended reading them, what do you think would have happened?

This is just another problem in our churches. Only a very few study for themselves without being told what to do by the "pastor"

sky

In the discussion of the Omega crisis, it was noted that during the Alpha crisis, EGW was dumbfounded when a leading SDA minister that had been well-grounded in the message stated that Kellogg's teaching was just like the Spirit of prophecy. The point: without spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit, reading the Spirit of Prophecy is of no eternal good. After all if a prominent minister of EGW's acquaintance that read her writings and could not see the difference between the SOP and the apostasy how easy would it be for the laity?

LAODICEA HAS the Bible, the Sabbath, the Spirit of Prophecy, truth galore and still it transitions into the 10 Virgins of which 5 are lost when the Bridegroom arrives. That is not a good scenario.

And even within this thread, when sound biblical teaching is presented that is in harmony with the Spirit of prophecy, it is brushed off, discounted, discredited, ignored, compared to an erroneous reading of the SOP or whatever by those that are claiming (like the minister in EGW's day) that they understand the Spirit of Prophecy. The truth preached here is not treated as the Bereans treated truth. They checked out that which they heard by comparing it to Scriptures rather than faulty human reasoning.

[12tribes]

In the discussion of the Omega crisis, it was noted that during the Alpha crisis, EGW was dumbfounded when a leading SDA minister that had been well-grounded in the message stated that Kellogg's teaching was just like the Spirit of prophecy. The point: without spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit, reading the Spirit of Prophecy is of no eternal good. After all if a prominent minister of EGW's acquaintance that read her writings and could not see the difference between the SOP and the apostasy how easy would it be for the laity?

LAODICEA HAS the Bible, the Sabbath, the Spirit of Prophecy, truth galore and still it transitions into the 10 Virgins of which 5 are lost when the Bridegroom arrives. That is not a good scenario.

And even within this thread, when sound biblical teaching is presented that is in harmony with the Spirit of prophecy, it is brushed off, discounted, discredited, ignored, compared to an erroneous reading of the SOP or whatever by those that are claiming (like the minister in EGW's day) that they understand the Spirit of Prophecy. The truth preached here is not treated as the Bereans treated truth. They checked out that which they heard by comparing it to Scriptures rather than faulty human reasoning.

John 7:17

(17) If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Luke 24:45

(45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

[ClubV12]

HCH, you make a valid point, we cannot understand anything spiritual without the Holy Spirit directing us and careful comparison of scripture. Sister White is no different, in fact, very much the same way as scripture.

What I've been discovering is reading any given EGW quote AND considering the context may STILL lead to the wrong conclusion. Just like a bible verse could.

If you come to the SOP with preconceived ideas of what you want to find, you'll find it, and you'll come away with an EGW quote to back it up!

The Testimonies, like the bible, explain themselves. But this is not always easy to do, to find that balance. The bible explains itself as well, but it takes Revelation to understand Daniel, for instance. It's some seriously hard work to put it together with the correct conclusions. So it is with the SOP.

I wouldn't go so far as to say people are blowing off anything though. What is clearly sound biblical doctrine backed up by the SOP may not be so clear to any given man at any given time. Just because YOU see it clearly and I don't doesn't mean I have rejected anything. Not that I have a specific post in mind when I say that, it's just a general principle.

I've read EGW comments that were not fully developed where you could not see the balance until several pages later. Perhaps in an entirely different counsel to someone else apparently not connected with the first counsel she made. In that regard, even understanding the context may not reveal the truth, the balance, on the matter.

For instance, she says the last day events should be kept before the people, studied, understood. Then another comment is that we make to much of the last day events, and we need to be reasonable about our earthly work. Don't sell the farm and go wait on a mountain for the Lord to come. Don't hammer the last day events home everytime you see someone. Well which is it? Keep them upfront or not? There is a balance, a time and place. It would be easy to conclude she is contradicting herself, she is not, we just don't understand it in the right way.

[hch]

Quote:

What happened on May 17, 2005 that you say fufilled the 1260, 1290, and 1335 prophecies of Daniel 12 and began the literal 2300 days?

What also is going to happen on October 7, 2011 that will fulfill the end of the literal 2300 days that you say began on May 17, 2005?

1) The decree to rebuild Jerusalem was repeated

(Jerusalem being teaching of peace) 31 May 1998

2) the counterfeit endtime prince of the covenant was anointed on the very day this prophecy indicated in Daniel 9 - 20 January 2001. He was put in office with a protestant mandate to take America back to God. Thus our two founding principles Republicanism and Protestantism met in this man and he perverted these founding principles into something that they were not.

3) The prince failed on 1 September 2001

4) The prince confirmed the covenant with many for one week 17-23 September 2001

5) In the midst of the week 20 September 2001 the prince set up the abomination that makes desolate. He addressed congress and declared the beliefs of Islam to be good. Islam believes that they can go to heaven without the sacrifice of Jesus. Thus the prince of the covenant did away with the Sacrifice and the oblation, which is to apply the sacrifice to the individual to receive the blessing provided by the sacrifice.

6) The prince failed 1 September 2001. That ended one time period and the time period, the 1290-days started the next day 2 September 2001 and it ends 2 April 2005. "Pope John-Paul II’s death came exactly 1290-days after 9/02/01."

That is significant because Daniel speaks of the DAILY which is from a word that means "continual" And in Revelation 13 the pope that receives a deadly wound that is healed is to continue 42-months. Thus Pope John-Paul II continued 42-months from 9/11/01 to 4/2/05 and he continued 1290-days from 9/2/01 to 4/2/05.

7) From 9/2/01 to 17 May 2005 is 1335-days. On that day a British intelligence officer leaked a secret report about the counterfeit prince of the covenant that detailed how he planned the war against Iraq before telling Congress. The report proved that he lied to Congress to take America to war as he lied to Congress when he said that the beliefs of Muslims are good when he did away with Christ's Sacrifice and the oblation.

8) Do the math. From 17 May 2005 - 2300-days ends a few weeks before the day of Atonement 7 October 2011.

The last events will be rapid ones.

The sequence in Daniel 11:41-44 states trouble in Egypt, Ethiopia, and Libya. The government changed in Egypt April 2011. The government changed in Southern Sudan which in ancient times was part of Ethiopia. And what about Libya? Today's news?

The same passage says the Edom, Moab, and Ammom will be spared. Jordan had a little skirmish and the king changed the prime minister and made some concessions and nipped it in the bud.

Then Daniel 12 transitions to a time of trouble like the world has never known. immediately after the for mentioned sequence the American Congress and president got into gridlock. Then the stock market fell 2000 points in 2 weeks. They report that it is gaining 300 points, and has had 6 days of gains because it was oversold, etc.

The fact is that it was in the 14000 range and is now in the 11000 range. The proverbial frog is in the pot and getting used to the temp as it heads toward boiling. And the frog states that the prophecy has not reached the time when we should sell off and put God's money into His work. They will hang onto it a little longer so that they can live the good life a little longer and then when the rapid events takes them unawares, they won't have a good account of their stewardship to give to the Lord.

Those that can't discern what voice to listen to in this hour will be in mortal danger.

All this and the biblical proof texts are in Echoes's of Doomsday. http://stores.lulu.com/DanielsRevelation

[ClubV12]

On second thought, you might be right, I think I'm gonna just blow this off. To much date setting and to off the wall in general for me to take it seriously.

While I believe some aspects of the 2,300 year prophecy COULD apply as a dual fulfillment after 1844, what you are proposing is totally over the top. This seriously sounds a lot like false prophecy.

[hch]

On second thought, you might be right, I think I'm gonna just blow this off. To much date setting and to off the wall in general for me to take it seriously.

While I believe some aspects of the 2,300 year prophecy COULD apply as a dual fulfillment after 1844, what you are proposing is totally over the top. This seriously sounds a lot like false prophecy.

[ClubV12]

So what date is Jesus coming based on this?

[hch]

So what date is Jesus coming based on this?

Apparently you are the last to know. We are never to have a message giving the day or the hour of Christ's Advent after 1844.

The next great message that is to stand on its own is the warning against the Mark of the Beast.

The 3rd angels message is NOW going forth with power!

Don't be deceived by the beast or the image beast. Don't take a mechanism to buy or sell for God has commanded that all who do will be lost.

Give the message the right sound at the right time because the world WORLD including "1/2 the virgins" is to be deceived

[ClubV12]

Of course we know not the hour Henry. But logically it follows that with such a detailed accounting of the time frame you've layed out one could approximate very closely the end date.

Some have, pinpointed within a month or so, I think Dr. Rich and company have done that.

...not that I'm buying it, just sayin'

No matter the warnings, no matter the knowledge of scripture you WILL be deceived on these matters without the Holy Spirit guiding you. The deceptions will be to difficult to discern truth from error for even the very elect without the Spirit.

[hch]

Of course we know not the hour Henry. But logically it follows that with such a detailed accounting of the time frame you've layed out one could approximate very closely the end date.

Some have, pinpointed within a month or so, I think Dr. Rich and company have done that.

...not that I'm buying it, just sayin'

No matter the warnings, no matter the knowledge of scripture you WILL be deceived on these matters without the Holy Spirit guiding you. The deceptions will be to difficult to discern truth from error for even the very elect without the Spirit.

[ClubV12]

I think it's fair to say none of these natural disasters of late have been ignored. They have received plenty of coverage on the news and been talked about here on the forum. We know the disasters will continue and increase and that the Lord's coming is close.

Soon, none know how soon, we will not be able to sell our properties, our goods at any price. Shall we than conclude with each disaster it is now time to do so? Shall we wait for yet another storm? While the time of the end is close, what steps should we take today, in terms of preparation for our goods, our livelyhood, our monies to advance the cause of God? While there is still time.

Shall we quit our job because of an earthquake? Shall we sell our home? Is it now time to leave the cities for the small towns and a country life? For some, it may indeed be time to do that! For all? I think not. How then will we know when the time comes?

By asking for and staying close to the Holy Spirit. By being willing and humble. The Lord will let each of us know, in the fullness of time, what physical steps we will need to take. When to quit that job, when to sell that house, when to take a loss on monies that are tied up in various ways. The wise and those who are open to the wisdom of the Lord will know.

Is that time RIGHT NOW? For some, it may well be. For some, that was as true in the early 1900's as it is today. There are many signs of the close of the hour of probation, always have been. No doubt it is closer today than it ever has been. We should move from principle and with the counsel of the Holy Spirit, not from emotion or fear.

No easy answer to these questions...

On a personal note, for me, it WAS time to quit my job. To sell many of my goods. To focus on a connection with God, a quest I had been on for ten years or so. It WAS time to leave the big city for a small town. Not all can do this, they are "trapped" by family, obligations and such. There will come a time when ALL people, regardless of their circumstances, will be enabled to "make that move". To shun family, jobs, homes, material possessions, whatever might be holding them back. The time is coming but is not yet for all.

[Twilight II]

Hello HCH

What you are describing is what I call the "fractal patterns" in prophecy.

A fractal being a repeating pattern that moves up and down the scope of time.

It describes big over arching events in time and also smaller events.

The multiple applications of prophecy within large and small contexts.

I understand your point although I have some cautions with your arguments...

Mark

[hch]

Hello HCH

What you are describing is what I call the "fractal patterns" in prophecy.

A fractal being a repeating pattern that moves up and down the scope of time.

It describes big over arching events in time and also smaller events.

The multiple applications of prophecy within large and small contexts.

I understand your point although I have some cautions with your arguments...

Mark

Which are?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

So what date is Jesus coming based on this?

Apparently you are the last to know. We are never to have a message giving the day or the hour of Christ's Advent after 1844.

The next great message that is to stand on its own is the warning against the Mark of the Beast.

The 3rd angels message is NOW going forth with power!

Don't be deceived by the beast or the image beast. Don't take a mechanism to buy or sell for God has commanded that all who do will be lost.

Give the message the right sound at the right time because the world WORLD including "1/2 the virgins" is to be deceived

Before the third angel's message goes to the world and become the loud cry it must be proclaimed to the church in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit. This is the last opportunity for the professed people of God to receive, believe, and act upon that message.

sky

What is "CCh" as a reference?

[hch]

The condemnation that will fall upon the inhabitants of the earth in this day will be because of their rejection of light. Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have lived in error, but from the fact that we have neglected Heaven-sent opportunities for discovering truth. The means of becoming conversant with the truth are within the reach of all; but, like the indulgent, selfish king, we give more attention to the things that charm the ear, and please the eye, and gratify the palate, than to the things that enrich the mind, the divine treasures of truth. It is through the truth that we may answer the great question, "What must I do to be saved?" {BEcho, September 17, 1894 par. 5}

[hch]

It is interesting that no one here picked up on the fact that today is the 2300th day since 17 May 2005.

But since 17 May 2005 ended the 1335-days, the 2300-day count would most likely end tomorrow 4 September 2011. And with that tidbit, did anyone notice hurricane Lee moving through LA, today and tomorrow?

Perhaps those who are watching and waiting noticed Hurricane Katia barreling toward the USA?

Wonder what is in store for DC, New York, and Vermont? Did you see the map?

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&ie=UTF8&vpsrc=0&msid=203577346167583507267.0004abfcba5243aed5d73&ll=24.846565,-72.949219&spn=27.69843,55.371094&z=4&source=embed

The calamities by land and sea, the unsettled state of society, the alarms of war, are portentous. They forecast approaching events of the greatest magnitude. The agencies of evil are combining their forces and consolidating. They are strengthening for the last great crisis. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones.—Testimonies for the Church 9:11 (1909).

[ClubV12]

So, it looks like HCH is yet another "1335 Futurist", apply a portion of the 2,300 year prophecy to a future event.

Sister White is VERY clear on this subject:

The 1,260 and the 1,335 already happened, there are in the past, done.

The theology you present here is yet another attempt to remove the most fundamental belief Seventh-day Adventists have, the 2,300 year prophecy ENDING (over, finished, in the past, fulfilled) in 1844. By doing so you call into question the Investigative Judgment. You start "setting dates" for Christs return.

Typically, these "off shoot" groups who falsely call themselves Seventh-day Adventist express full confidence in the 2,300 year prophecy and in some cases the inspired nature of Sister Whites work. While at the same time, subtely calling into question BOTH concepts. They say, "Sister White was "mostly correct", for what she knew when she knew it, but "we" have "new light" today."

NO,, you don't. If it doesn't build upon the foundation, it tears it down. The theology you present here is NOT ACCORDING to the Testimony of Ellen White or the bible. It is false, misleading and presents only confusion. It's author is the evil doer himself.