Moderators John317 Posted August 15, 2011 Moderators Posted August 15, 2011 [quoting]: ...But since this holy history of Christ is God’s supreme gift to mankind, and in view of the fact that God created man with a free will, the objective gospel Christ obtained for each person demands a human response (see John 3:16-18). Those who respond and accept the gospel message by faith, stand perfect in Christ — perfect in performance, in justice, as well as in nature. This is what justification by faith is all about — God’'s looking at the believer as he or she is in Christ. This is what entitles all believers to eternal life and heaven, both now and in the judgment. So while the gospel itself is unconditional good news to all human beings, experiencing that salvation is conditional and will be enjoyed only by those who believe (see Mark 16:15, 16). I agree with the above. Could you explain what the significance is of the "legal justification"? Will anyone get into the Kingdom of God on the basis of "legal justification"? Or will all who enter there be admitted because of God's justifying them by faith through Jesus Christ? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Posted August 15, 2011 Testimonies Vol 9. The most powerful call to go to work for the Lord I've ever heard. With specific instructions on how to witness, where, when (ALL the time), give of your assetts, humble yourself, more prayer, go to your neighbors, door to door. We are so blessed to have this Spirit of Prophecy from the Lord to us. This volume brought tears to my eyes, some joy, some sad, in realizing how important it is to tell the world. ....carry on... Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 Could you explain what the significance is of the "legal justification"? Will anyone get into the Kingdom of God on the basis of "legal justification"? Or will all who enter there be admitted because of God's unmerited favor through faith in Jesus Christ? John317 ____________________ Good questions. Legal justification will not help anyone unless faith is exercised and it must be the right faith for the bible tells us that "there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Eph.4:5. It is the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring into the life, "the grace that brings salvation to all men" (Titus 2:11) as it is "exceedingly abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 1 Tim.1:14. "For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God.." Eph.2:8. This faith by which we are to lay right hold upon the merits of Christ's sacrifice is a gift. A measure of that faith has been "dealt to every man" born into this world (Rom.12:3) and when this faith is exercised it is said to "grow exceedingly" and thus "love toward each other is made to abound." 1 Thess.1:3. For "God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified Saviour. Love springs up in the heart." 1 S.M.354. This love is, by the Holy Spirit, diffused through the whole being and it is a vitalizing power: "The love which Christ diffuses through the whole being is a vitalizing power. Every vital part, the brain, the heart, the nerves, it touches with healing. By it the highest energies of the being are roused to activity. It frees the soul from the guilt and sorrow, the anxiety and care that crush the life forces. With it come serenity and composure. It implants in the soul, joy that nothing earthly can destroy, joy in the Holy Spirit, health-giving, life-giving joy." Ministry of Healing, p.115. If we do not interpose a perverse will, as the Lord impresses His Spirit upon our minds and hearts, "We shall come in repentance and contrition, with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness, and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." F.W.86. This is "the faith that works by love" (Gal.5:6; Rom.5:5) to purify the soul. Is it not? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 miz3, I intended that post for Just*. I am asking Just* if he quoted Jack Sequeira. I know you did not. If you look carefully, you will see [Just*] at the top of my post. That means I was replying to his post. Sorry my mistake! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 15, 2011 Moderators Posted August 15, 2011 Legal justification will not help anyone unless faith is exercised and it must be the right faith for the bible tells us that "there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Eph.4:5. It is the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring into the life, "the grace that brings salvation to all men" (Titus 2:11) as it is "exceedingly abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 1 Tim.1:14. "For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God.." Eph.2:8. Amen! That is the same message throughout the Bible, and particularly in the letters of Paul, Romans, Galatians, and 2 Corinthians. For instance, Paul was inspired to write, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." Romans. 3: 28. Similarly: "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in hope of the glory of God." Romans 5: 1, 2. "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Gal. 3: 24 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 15, 2011 Moderators Posted August 15, 2011 No problem. :-) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 15, 2011 Moderators Posted August 15, 2011 Yes, me too. Vol. 9 is one my favorite of the Testimonies for the church. Also, of course, vol. 1. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight II Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 Legal justification through the "blood" of Christ, entitles one to the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But it is only as one is led by that indwelling Spirit, that the justification is maintained. It is only as one remains under the blood of Christ that they remain justified. So we have to abide "in" Christ, or in the "blood" or "merits" of Christ and then we have to have the Spirit dwelling in us and following the leading of the Holy Spirit. Justification and sanctification are not two seperate things, they are words to describe two aspects of one process. Quote
miz3 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 [quote name="FUNDAMENTAL RULE OF THE UNIVERSE"]GOD ACTS AND IT IS ALWAYS SO EVEN BEFORE HUMANS DO OR SAY ANYTHING! Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 Personally I have no problem accepting the Bible fact that before we had any chance to do anything we were chosen in Christ even before the foundation of the world. That was the will of God for me long before I was born. But now I need to put my will on the side of God's will. As I daily look to Christ and accept His merits which it is my privilege to claim, the Father receives me to Himself and His grace is with me to work in me both to will and to do His good pleasure. As long as I exercised this faith, I cannot perish. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 Personally I have no problem accepting the Bible fact that before we had any chance to do anything we were chosen in Christ even before the foundation of the world. That was the will of God for me long before I was born. But now I need to put my will on the side of God's will. As I daily look to Christ and accept His merits which it is my privilege to claim, the Father receives me to Himself and His grace is with me to work in me both to will and to do His good pleasure. As long as I exercised this faith, I cannot perish. sky NO! NO! NO! JESUS CHRIST MADE IT SO THAT WE DID NOT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING! JESUS CHRIST DID IT ALL! THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS! (You don't have put anything anywhere!) Just let God do it ALL FOR YOU! IT IS ABOUT WHAT GOD DOES BECAUSE HUMANS ARE UNABLE TO DO ANYTHING! They think they can and they think they have to. This is why humans are constantly frustrated in their "walk with God", because it produces only an on again, off again, mostly off again result at best! In doing this the human only prolongs the pain and suffering to say nothing of making a huge mess! Abraham is an excellent example. He and Sarah kept thinking they had to "DO SOMETHING" in order for God's Promise to be fulfilled. The fact is NOTHING ABRAHAM OR SARAH COULD DO OR DID IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM HELPED GOD ACHIEVE THE GOAL. GOD DID IT ALL! ABRAHAM DID NOTHING! (except make a mess!) Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 The Holy Spirit expressed it well in these words: "Faith is the gift of God but the power to exercise it is ours. Faith is the hand by which the soul takes hold upon the divine offers of grace and mercy." P.P.431. Faith lays hold upon the divine offers of grace and mercy by laying right hold upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. And this must be done every day. It is our lifebusiness to look to Jesus and to accept His merits which it is our privilege to claim for "He was treated as we deserve that we might be treated as He deserves." D.A.25. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 The Holy Spirit expressed it well in these words: "Faith is the gift of God but the power to exercise it is ours. Faith is the hand by which the soul takes hold upon the divine offers of grace and mercy." P.P.431. Faith lays hold upon the divine offers of grace and mercy by laying right hold upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. And this must be done every day. It is our lifebusiness to look to Jesus and to accept His merits which it is our privilege to claim for "He was treated as we deserve that we might be treated as He deserves." D.A.25. sky Please show me from the Bible! Is your concept only found in Ellen White? Quote
Twilight II Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 Please show me from the Bible! In the bible, we can see that through "faith" in the "blood" of Christ, we enter into salvation. So the single condition we have is that we have to lay hold of the "blood" of Christ. Now down through the ages, this idea of the "blood" has been called the "merits" of Christ. This terminology is not specific to Ellen White, but specific to the great reformers and most of the great Christians that walked with God mention the merits of Christ. The protestant reformation was formed on this argument. But in the bible you will never see the words "merits of Christ". But the same idea is expressed in the "blood of Christ". It is an old truth that predates Ellen White. Mark :-) Quote
miz3 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Please show me from the Bible! In the bible, we can see that through "faith" in the "blood" of Christ, we enter into salvation. So the single condition we have is that we have to lay hold of the "blood" of Christ. Now down through the ages, this idea of the "blood" has been called the "merits" of Christ. This terminology is not specific to Ellen White, but specific to the great reformers and most of the great Christians that walked with God mention the merits of Christ. The protestant reformation was formed on this argument. But in the bible you will never see the words "merits of Christ". But the same idea is expressed in the "blood of Christ". It is an old truth that predates Ellen White. Mark :-) Romans chapter five is quite clear that God through Jesus Christ DID IT ALL without any human stuff at all! Quote
miz3 Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 We differ in that you believe all men were justified before they were born. I believe, on the other hand, that Paul teaches believers are justified at the moment they place all of their faith in Christ and accept Him as their Lord and Savior. Paul in Romans chapter five agrees with me! Paul in Romans chapter five does NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU BELIEVE! If you do NOT UNDERSTAND THIS FOUNDATION OF SALVATION it is not of much value for us to discuss the other parts of Salvation stated in the texts you cite! Below is Romans chapter five again! "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:6-21. 1. See verses eight and nine above they clearly state that while we humans were still sinners that God Justified us by the Blood of Jesus Christ! FACT! 2. Verse ten says that when we humans were still God's enemies God RECONCILED US through the death of Jesus Christ! FACT! 3. Verse eleven says we are to rejoice because while we are still sinners God RECONCILED US through Jesus Christ! FACT! 4. Again in verse sixteen it says that the Gift of God is that because of Jesus Christ's death we have been Justified! FACT! 5. Verse eighteen again states with great clarity that ALL HUMANS ARE JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST'S DEATH! FACT! Paul repeats five times in this passage that WITHOUT ANY HUMAN INPUT WHATSOEVER that JESUS CHRIST'S DEATH JUSTIFIED ALL HUMANS! Paul in Romans chapter five says with repetitive clarity that ALL HUMANS HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED! Jesus' Death on the Cross Justified all men! That is what the Scripture says. There no "ands", no "ifs", no "buts" concerning that Biblical FACT! Romans chapter five is quite clear that the deal was all done on the Cross! NO OTHER ADDITIONS! Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Please show me from the Bible! In the bible, we can see that through "faith" in the "blood" of Christ, we enter into salvation. So the single condition we have is that we have to lay hold of the "blood" of Christ. Now down through the ages, this idea of the "blood" has been called the "merits" of Christ. This terminology is not specific to Ellen White, but specific to the great reformers and most of the great Christians that walked with God mention the merits of Christ. The protestant reformation was formed on this argument. But in the bible you will never see the words "merits of Christ". But the same idea is expressed in the "blood of Christ". It is an old truth that predates Ellen White. Mark :-) Well said. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Twilight II Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Romans chapter five is quite clear that God through Jesus Christ DID IT ALL without any human stuff at all! Indeed, but we have to receive the gift. We do that by accepting the gift. That is faith. That is how we become "righteous" by "faith". We receive the gift of "righteousness" by having "faith" in the atoning blood (merits) of Christ. That gift of righteousness involves receiving the gift of the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the gift of a heart that loves God and follows Him. So righteousness by faith is describing the process by which we receive the gift. Quote
Twilight II Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Well said. sky I have dwelt much on this text since someone shared it with me... To whom I will be eternally grateful. It is the foundational truth of the Christian faith. Without it, none of us can enter into the Chrisian walk. Quote
miz3 Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Romans chapter five is quite clear that God through Jesus Christ DID IT ALL without any human stuff at all! Indeed, but we have to receive the gift. We do that by accepting the gift. That is faith. That is how we become "righteous" by "faith". We receive the gift of "righteousness" by having "faith" in the atoning blood (merits) of Christ. That gift of righteousness involves receiving the gift of the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the gift of a heart that loves God and follows Him. So righteousness by faith is describing the process by which we receive the gift. Romans chapter five says nothing about our (humans) having to receive the Gift! It says that regardless how we feel about the Gift God did it anyway! That means ALL HUMANITY WAS SAVED RIGHT FROM THE START! That is God's message, that is the Good News! Quote
Twilight II Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Indeed, but we have to receive the gift. We do that by accepting the gift. That is faith. That is how we become "righteous" by "faith". We receive the gift of "righteousness" by having "faith" in the atoning blood (merits) of Christ. That gift of righteousness involves receiving the gift of the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the gift of a heart that loves God and follows Him. So righteousness by faith is describing the process by which we receive the gift. Romans chapter five says nothing about our (humans) having to receive the Gift! It says that regardless how we feel about the Gift God did it anyway! That means ALL HUMANITY WAS SAVED RIGHT FROM THE START! That is God's message, that is the Good News! God specifically calls each and every believer to choose whether to accept the gift or not. That acceptance of the gift gives them the right to the gift. Refusal of the gift means refusal of righteousness. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 16, 2011 Moderators Posted August 16, 2011 Is your concept only found in Ellen White? I don't know if this particular thing you're talking about is found in the Bible, but the important thing is that a true prophet's words will not contradict the clear teaching of God's revelation. It may appear to some people to contradict what God revealed, but that is different from actually contradicting God's word. However, when you compare what Joshua wrote, you will have to concede that everything Joshua wrote was not in the books of Moses. Yet at the same time Joshua did not contradict Moses. We could say the same thing about every prophet from Moses to Malachi. It is the same with Ellen White: the test is whether she contradicts the Bible, not whether she says something that is not found in the Bible. Of course she is going to say some things not found in the Bible. Otherwise there wouldn't be much reason for her to write or say anything. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
12tribes Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Is your concept only found in Ellen White? I don't know if this particular thing you're talking about is found in the Bible, but the important thing is that a true prophet's words will not contradict the clear teaching of God's revelation. It may appear to some people to contradict what God revealed, but that is different from actually contradicting God's word. However, when you compare what Joshua wrote, you will have to concede that everything Joshua wrote was not in the books of Moses. Yet at the same time Joshua did not contradict Moses. We could say the same thing about every prophet from Moses to Malachi. It is the same with Ellen White: the test is whether she contradicts the Bible, not whether she says something that is not found in the Bible. Of course she is going to say some things not found in the Bible. Otherwise there wouldn't be much reason for her to write or say anything. That is true many misquote EGW she expands on the truth we have already she does not say something else Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Moderators John317 Posted August 16, 2011 Moderators Posted August 16, 2011 According to the RULE, Justification came FIRST even before humans did or said anything! What you mean, perhaps, is that God's love and the death of Christ-- the sacrifice-- came first before humans did or said anything. Justification is God's declaration that I am "just as if I had not sinned." This doesn't happen until I personally accept, or receive, God's gift of Christ. God doesn't justify me or anyone else simply by virtue of having been born. If that were the case, everyone would be saved. God's love is unconditional, but justification and salvation are conditional. God proved his love for the human race by giving Christ while we were His enemy. This gave the whole human race a second trial but Christ's death didn't mean that God declared all humanity righteous and without sin. Christ's death proves to us that God wants to be friends, that He isn't our enemy, but instead that He loves us infinitely and wants us to be with Him throughout eternity. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 16, 2011 Moderators Posted August 16, 2011 Jesus' Death on the Cross Justified all men! That is what the Scripture says. Where does it say these exact words? Not only are the exact word NOT in the Scripture, but the Scripture does not teach the concept. You are misunderstanding Romans 5. You are also ignoring all the passages of Romans and Galatians that clearly teach us that justification is by faith in Christ. Paul even says, "Therefore WE CONCLUDE that a man is justified by faith." How you can misunderstood this plain statement is a great puzzle to me. One of the most fundamental principles of heurmeneutics is that we must allow the clear statements to interpret the statements that are less clear. Well, the statement that a man is justified by faith is very, very clear. You can't get any clearer than that. And what's more, the statement is repeated many times throughout Romans and Galatians. The Bible never says that "all men have been justified." What happened, rather, is that God demonstrated His love for all men by giving Jesus to die for them. But that is not the same as justifying them. We must receive the gift of Christ by faith in order to be justified in God's sight. We have access to God's grace in Christ by faith. Rom 5: 2. Faith in Christ is the key that unlocks the door and gives us access to what God has for us. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Nothing could be clearer than this in Scripture. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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