miz3 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 God's sending Christ showed that God is not our enemy. The problem has never been that God does not love us. The problem is that mankind naturally is alientated from, and hates, God. Adam's reaction after the Fall says it all. What did Adam do? He ran and hid because he knew he had something evil and deserved punishment. Christ's death proved that God loves us and has done everything possible to bring us home again. But one thing God will not do is force us to accept Him. It's a mistake to believe this verse teaches that faith in Christ is unnecessary. 1. I never ever said that the problem was God's Love for us! 2. No one is asserting that God is "forcing us to do anything"! Your assertion that I am saying this is untrue! 3. In addition I am NOT saying that "FAITH" in Christ is unnecessary. This is another assertion you make about me that is also NOT TRUE! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 10, 2011 Moderators Posted August 10, 2011 If your understanding of Romans 5 were correct, we could expect that the book of Acts would show the apostles preaching that all humans are already justified, and that justification has nothing to do with our choices; but this is something we don't find anywhere in Acts. Quite the contrary. Originally Posted By: miz3 You statement is not necessarily true! Why wouldn't this be true? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 10, 2011 Moderators Posted August 10, 2011 ...you flatly contradict Romans 5: 1-- "Therefore, having been JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Originally Posted By: miz3 1. You are taking Romans five verse one out of context! This verse goes within the last paragraph cited by Paul in Romans chapter four! IT IS NOT A STAND ALONE STATEMENT! If it was a stand alone statement then Paul would be contradicting all the other things Paul says in Romans chapter five. Of course this cannot be so! You are exactly right that Romans 5: 1 goes with Romans 4. And what is Romans 4 telling us? It is telling us that Abraham was justified by faith, before Abraham was circumcised. Does it say that Abraham was justified BEFORE HE WAS BORN ALONG WITH ALL OF HUMANITY? Romans 4: 13 says that Abraham became the heir "through the righteousness of faith." Notice verse 16: 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Romans 5: 1 follows 4: 22-25-- Quote: 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. What was imputed to Abraham for righteousness? What does verse 22 say? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 10, 2011 Moderators Posted August 10, 2011 Wouldn't you agree that the whole world is not in Christ? How do people become "in Christ." Will anyone be saved without faith? If you were to choose to reject your faith in Christ, would you be justified in God's sight? Originally Posted By: miz3 Here is the correct sequence: a. Jesus Christ dies on the Cross and is raised from the grave! b. While Jesus Christ is on the Cross and is raised from the grave, humans remain hostile to God! Agreed so far. Originally Posted By: miz3 c. However, God because of what Jesus Christ has done on the Cross and coming to life from the grave, makes ALL HUMANS JUSTIFIED! Explain what you believe "justified" is. Are you claiming that God forgives all humans and acquits them all of their sins, crediting them with all the righteousness of the Son of God? Originally Posted By: miz3 d. Some humans are grateful to God and do not resist what God has done. Why do some resist and others gratefully accept his gift? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 10, 2011 Moderators Posted August 10, 2011 e. Unfortunately, many humans REJECT what God has done through Jesus Christ and their REJECTION makes them NOT JUSTIFIED! Are you saying here that God makes them justified and forgiven/righteous, but then takes away their justification? Why does God do this? Why do so many reject what God has done? And why do so few accept Christ? Originally Posted By: miz3 f. The humans who do NOT REJECT God's gift begin to grow in God (SANCTIFICATION). These same humans Trust (FAITH) what God has done and is now doing in them. This is where FAITH comes into play. ONLY THE RIGHTEOUS WILL HAVE FAITH! Doesn't God give a measure of faith to everyone? Romans 12: 3. "God has dealt to each person a measure of faith." Originally Posted By: miz3 The lost do not have any FAITH! They have either out rightly REJECTED GOD'S GIFT or they REJECT GOD'S GIFT somewhere along the line in their SANCTIFICATION process! Is this due to any choice on the part of these humans who reject God? Why do some persevere in the sanctification process while others do not persevere? Originally Posted By: miz3 g. You see only some experience the gift of FAITH (it comes from God)! They would be the RIGHTEOUS! But your statement here implies that it is God's fault that so many will be lost. Your thinking leads to the idea that if only God had given more people the gift of faith!! But as the Bible says, "God deals to each person (both the righteous and the unrighteous) a measure of faith." Do you agree? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 10, 2011 Moderators Posted August 10, 2011 Paul in Romans puts the gift of "FAITH" as something the RIGHTEOUS are given after they are JUSTIFIED! Are you absolutely certain of this? Then does Paul teach that Abraham was justified without faith? See Gen. 15: 6 for the answer; compare this with Romans 4: 3, 22; Gal. 3: 6. Gal. 3: 2 says that we receive the Holy Spirit by the hearing of faith. Gal. 3: 14 says that we receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal. 3: 6 says that Abraham believed God and it [his faith/belief/trust] was accounted to him for righteousness. "Accounted for righteousness"= justification. Did Abraham believe God before he was justified? Or after? Please tell us here whether Gal. 3: 6 contradicts what Paul teaches in Romans 5. Was Abraham and all of humanity justified before he had faith in God? If you believe so, prove it by Scripture. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Was Abraham and all of humanity justified before he had faith in God? If you believe so, prove it by Scripture. I did! See Romans chapter five! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 10, 2011 Moderators Posted August 10, 2011 Was Abraham and all of humanity justified before he had faith in God? If you believe so, prove it by Scripture. Originally Posted By: miz3 I did! See Romans chapter five! Gal. 3: 6 says that Abraham believed God and it [his faith/belief/trust] was accounted to him for righteousness. "Accounted for righteousness"= justification. Did Abraham believe God before he was justified? Or after? Please tell us here whether Gal. 3: 6 contradicts what Paul teaches in Romans 5. How can you claim Romans 5 proves something that Gal 3: 6 and Gen. 15: 6 clearly deny. Gen. 15:6-- And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Gal. 3:6-- Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Those verses say that Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness. That means Abraham was justifed because of his faith/belief. His faith/belief preceeded his justification. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 ...you flatly contradict Romans 5: 1-- "Therefore, having been JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Originally Posted By: miz3 1. You are taking Romans five verse one out of context! This verse goes within the last paragraph cited by Paul in Romans chapter four! IT IS NOT A STAND ALONE STATEMENT! If it was a stand alone statement then Paul would be contradicting all the other things Paul says in Romans chapter five. Of course this cannot be so! You are exactly right that Romans 5: 1 goes with Romans 4. And what is Romans 4 telling us? It is telling us that Abraham was justified by faith, before Abraham was circumcised. Does it say that Abraham was justified BEFORE HE WAS BORN ALONG WITH ALL OF HUMANITY? Romans 4: 13 says that Abraham became the heir "through the righteousness of faith." Notice verse 16: 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Romans 5: 1 follows 4: 22-25-- Quote: 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. What was imputed to Abraham for righteousness? What does verse 22 say? Abraham was JUSTIFIED before Abraham was born! You are looking at things after Abraham's birth! Thus, you are looking at a "post Justified Abraham"! Romans chapter four is NOT talking about Abraham's JUSTIFICATION! Many erroneously make this mistake! If you want I can go line by line through Romans chapter four with you! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 10, 2011 Moderators Posted August 10, 2011 Abraham was JUSTIFIED before Abraham was born! You are looking at things after Abraham's birth! Thus, you are looking at a "post Justified Abraham"! Where does the Bible teach this? The Bible clearly says that Abraham's faith was accounted for righteousness. It doesn't say he was accounted as righteous [justified] and then Abraham had faith. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 10, 2011 Moderators Posted August 10, 2011 Romans chapter four is NOT talking about Abraham's JUSTIFICATION! Many erroneously make this mistake! Then what is Romans chapter 4 talking about? Obviously you don't agree with all the other readers and students of Romans that came before you. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 10, 2011 Moderators Posted August 10, 2011 ...Romans chapter four is NOT talking about Abraham's JUSTIFICATION! I think you're digging a bigger and bigger hole for yourself. Romans chapter 4 is illustrating the truth of Romans 3: 28-30. Romans 3:28-- Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 3:29 [is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. These are all principles that Paul states in Romans 1: 16, 17, verses that helped to start the Protestant Reformation when Martin Luther studied them in preparation for a class he was teaching. The gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes. The righteousness of God [that is, God's gift of justification] is revealed from faith to faith. This means that justification by God begins with faith and leads to ever greater faith. So that, as verse 17 says, the justified shall[continuously] live by [his] faith/trust/belief/ confidence/ reliance. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Abraham was JUSTIFIED before Abraham was born! You are looking at things after Abraham's birth! Thus, you are looking at a "post Justified Abraham"! Where does the Bible teach this? The Bible clearly says that Abraham's faith was accounted for righteousness. It doesn't say he was accounted as righteous [justified] and then Abraham had faith. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 11, 2011 Moderators Posted August 11, 2011 To be "justified," to be "accounted righteous," and "to have righteousness imputed," are all the same thing, miz3. See Romans 4: 2,3, 5, 6. "The righteousness of faith" is the same as "justification by faith." See Rom. 4: 1-12. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 11, 2011 Moderators Posted August 11, 2011 Abraham was JUSTIFIED before Abraham was born! You are looking at things after Abraham's birth! Thus, you are looking at a "post Justified Abraham"! Originally Posted By: John3:17 Where does the Bible teach this? The Bible clearly says that Abraham's faith was accounted for righteousness. It doesn't say he was accounted as righteous [justified] and then Abraham had faith. Originally Posted By: miz3 Abraham was Justified before he left Haran! "The LORD had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. .... Abraham knew the Voice of God and obeyed the Voice of God. These are the actions of a person who is/has been Justified! Abraham was already worshiping God! Those who are already Justified do these things! It is clear that Abraham had NOT REJECTED GOD IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM! Genesis chapter 12 happened before the incidents cited by Paul in Romans chapter four! (that came in Genesis chapter 15 sometime after the chapter 12 incidents). Thus, it is impossible for Abraham to have only been Justified in chapter fifteen. The life of Abraham clearly shows that Abraham was a "Just" (Justified) man before the events of chapter fifteen. Thus, when God accounted to Abraham "righteousness" it was not for the purposes of Justifying Abraham because Abraham a worshiper of the True God was already Justified. In fact as Romans chapter five states God Justified every human even those in the past like Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. Remember when you insisted that people show you exactly where the Bible teaches that humans are free moral agents? Now you are doing what you accused others of doing. You're jumping to a lot of unjustifiable consclusions. The issue is not when Abraham was justified. The issue is where does the Bible give evidence that Abraham was justified before he was born? The Bible is clear that Abraham was justified by faith. It even states it clearly many times. There's also the fact that Abraham wouldn't have kept his justification if he had refused to leave Haran for the land of Canaan. Look carefully at Romans 4: 20-25: 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that [color:#FF0000]it was imputed to him; 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. NOTE: If Abraham had been justified before he was born, and if we are also justified before we are born, why does 4: 24 tell us that we shall also have righteousness imputed to us if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Just* Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 Quote: 3. "FAITH" ALWAYS, ALWAYS COMES AFTER JUSTIFICATION!4. Only the "Righteous" will exercise gift of "FAITH". Amen Quote: Paul in Romans puts the gift of "FAITH" as something the RIGHTEOUS are given after they are JUSTIFIED! Amen Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. Romans 5:9 ... justified by His blood... 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Quote
miz3 Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 To be "justified," to be "accounted righteous," and "to have righteousness imputed," are all the same thing, miz3. See Romans 4: 2,3, 5, 6. "The righteousness of faith" is the same as "justification by faith." See Rom. 4: 1-12. Maybe in your view but not always is this so in the Bible! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted August 11, 2011 Moderators Posted August 11, 2011 ESVÂ |Â Ro 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. ESVÂ |Â Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. If justification is BY faith, and righteousness is received BY faith, how can you guys say that faith FOLLOWS righteousness? Me thinks you got the cart before the horse. When Jesus died on the Cross, a general amnesty was declared for all rebels, but that would do no one any good UNLESS they accept it and stop fighting. Appomatox did not end ALL hostilities. There were rebel forces that continued to fight. After the Japanese signed unconditional surrender, that ended hostilities between Japan and the US. But there were Japanese soldiers that continued to fight the war until the early 70's. The general amnesty/peace/justification that was declared at the Cross, is not in the possession of anyone UNTIL the sinner gives up the fight and accepts/receives it by faith. Quote
miz3 Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 The problem is that you continue to equate "righteousness" with "justification". In the texts that we are using this is not what happens! Until you break with this erroneous view you will continue to not understand what Paul or the Bible is saying on this topic! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted August 11, 2011 Moderators Posted August 11, 2011 If justification comes before faith, then EVERYONE would be saved. Many will be lost. You know that to be true. Quote
cheddar Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 John and Miz are focusing on different areas of the gospel. Miz is focusing on the corporate experience where Jesus is the the savior of all mankind. His life, death and resurrection brought justification to all men and was available the moment Adam sinned. John is focusing on the individual’s experience where justification is not received until we hear the good news and then choose to exercise faith in it. Both are correct, just different slices of the same pie. Quote
ClubV12 Posted August 11, 2011 Author Posted August 11, 2011 Miz3 has stated numerous times in many threads that man has no choice, no freewill. This belief is not just "another slice of the pie", it's predestination. Seventh-day Adventists reject the concept of predestination, John Calvin, Islamics, miz3 theology and many other religions do not. We have a choice to make when it comes to salvation, a heaven to win and a hell to shun. Your call... Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted August 11, 2011 Moderators Posted August 11, 2011 The problem is that you continue to equate "righteousness" with "justification". You are correct. The two are NOT synonymous. We receive righteousness with justification. Quote
cheddar Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 Did You ask Jesus Christ to save you 2000 years ago? No. So in that sense you had no choice. He just did it. Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 I didn't ask Jesus to save me 2,000 years ago but I have that choice now. In fact I must make that choice every day. He chose us even before the foundation of the world but unless He has our consent, unless we daily appropriate the merits of Jesus Christ to ourselves, what He did 2,000 years ago will be of no avail to us. Why should we have to even discuss this? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
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