Been reading the Testimonies....

[miz3]

It says "Many will be made righteous" not are made righteous. We will be made righteous if we look to Jesus and appropriate His merits to ourselves, by claiming them. That is faith, even living faith. This is the faith that works by love to purify the soul. Otherwise it cannot be said that we are justified or sanctified.

sky

You are not reading the passage correctly!

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."

Romans 5:6-11.

All are JUSTIFIED! To be "reconciled" is to be made Just before God! In fact verse nine says flat out that we have been "JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD"!

It doesn't say we have been JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD IF humans do, say, choose, etc. something.

It is a flat out statement done without any human input whatsoever. It is a flat out statement that ALL humans have been JUSTIFIED PERIOD!

[miz3]

You conveniently omitted Romans 5:18.

I will repeat it for you.

"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. "

Romans 5:18.

Sky, that means JUSTIFICATION FOR ALL MEN!

It means exactly that!

You cannot pick one sentence and omit other sentences or omit the clear context of Romans Chapter five!

[miz3]

I guess Jesus Christ didn't JUSTIFY US as Romans chapter five states in verses eighteen and nineteen.

Most people think that in order to be Justified the human has to "choose" to be Justified by Jesus Christ! They also must continue daily to "choose" in order to "maintain their Justification" or they will lose it and be lost! That is "Justification by human choice"!

Such views as this makes the "human entity" the "linchpin" of Salvation. The human entity replaces Jesus Christ as the "Center" of Salvation in this erroneous philosophy! This is pagan philosophy dressed up in different clothing. It replaces "works" salvation with "choice salvation". Neither is Biblical.

Like all pagan philosophies it replaces God's doing with human's doing! Whether that doing is some "works" or some "choice" it is still the same thing. The human entity is the "KEY" to Salvation. Without the "human choice" Salvation is not possible. Such again is nothing more than pagan philosophy dressed in different clothes than other "works" religions.

Such "Justification by human choice" is not Biblical according to Romans chapter five!

[Just*]

"We have no other foundation than that of the apostles and prophets. Eph.2:20. It is a full and complete salvation that God has provided; it awaits us as we come into the world; and we do not relieve God of any burden by rejecting it, nor do we add to His labor by accepting it."

+

"Thank God for the blessed hope! The blessing has come upon all men; for "as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Rom.5:18. God, who is "no respecter of persons," "hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." Eph.1:3. It is ours to keep. If any one has not this blessing, it is because he has not recognized the gift, or has deliberately thrown it away."

+

"Some one may lightly say, "Then we are all right; whatever we do is right so far as the law is concerned, since we are redeemed." It is true that all are redeemed, but not all have accepted redemption. Many say of Christ, "We will not have this Man to reign over us," and thrust the blessing of God from them. But redemption is for all; all have been purchased with the precious blood--the life--of Christ, and all may be, if they will, free from sin and death. By that blood we are redeemed from our "vain manner of life." 1Pet.1:18, R.V."

The Glad Tidings   by E.J. Waggoner

[skyblue888]

And the foundation of the apostles and prophets is the foundation of the Christian's faith: "The merits of a crucified and risen Savior are the foundation of the Christian's faith." G.C.73.

It was the foundation of the Reformers. It is said that when they discovered the "true light," that "they cast themselves wholly upon the merits of Jesus." G.C.74.

sky

[skyblue888]

Christ's sacrifice was complete. When Jesus died on the cross, the condition for the atonement was complete but Christ did not begin the atonement until He ascended up on High as He began to plead the merits of His infinite sacrifice before the Father in our behalf.

Only those who by faith appropriate the merits of that sacrifice are entitled to the gifts of justification and sanctification.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

sky

[miz3]

Christ's sacrifice was complete. When Jesus died on the cross, the condition for the atonement was complete but Christ did not begin the atonement until He ascended up on High as He began to plead the merits of His infinite sacrifice before the Father in our behalf.

Only those who by faith appropriate the merits of that sacrifice are entitled to the gifts of justification and sanctification.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

sky

That is not what Paul says in Romans chapter five!

Jesus' Death on the Cross Justified all men! That is what the Scripture says. There no "ands", no "ifs", no "buts" concerning that Biblical FACT!

There was NO WAITING TILL CHRIST ENTERED THE SANCTUARY OR PLEADING THE MERITS OR ANYTHING!

Romans chapter five is quite clear that the deal was all done on the Cross! NO OTHER ADDITIONS!

[miz3]

But miz3 what about this:

"For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[c] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Romans 1:17.

So doesn't this support what sky and others are saying about "Faith"?

NO!

The text says the "righteous live by faith"! It does not say "the righteous 'are justified by faith'"

1. All humans are Justified because of what God through Jesus Christ did on the Cross!

2. The "lost" REJECT this free gift! These "lost" continue to live as "unJustified" humans and remain in their sin!

3. The "righteous" are already Justified and that Justification gets them into Heaven!

4. The "righteous" while on this earth continue to live as Justified humans because they "trust" (have faith, believe) in what God through Jesus Christ has already done for them.

This means they are not saved by "their faith"! They are saved by Jesus Christ on what He did for them on the Cross!

It means they continue to "live by their faith"!

The problem with Sky's theology on this point is that it has the human being Justified (that is saved) by having "faith". There is a huge difference between this theology and what I am saying above. Sky's proposal is NOT BIBLICAL!

This is a trap that many fall into!

[ClubV12]

miz, do you have to argue on EVERY thread? You've stated your opinion, we get it, we hear you. Nobody believes you, personally, I think your literally delusional. Let it go man, just step away from the keyboard after 5 or 6 posts stating and re-stating your opinion on any given thread.

It's old news, it's sad to see a grown man grovel and cry like you do when somebody disagrees with you.

...if we had a nickel for everytime you say, "NOT BIBLICAL"... Shows up in every thread you post on sooner or later.

[John317]

That is not what Paul says in Romans chapter five!

Jesus' Death on the Cross Justified all men! That is what the Scripture says. There no "ands", no "ifs", no "buts" concerning that Biblical FACT!

There was NO WAITING TILL CHRIST ENTERED THE SANCTUARY OR PLEADING THE MERITS OR ANYTHING!

Romans chapter five is quite clear that the deal was all done on the Cross! NO OTHER ADDITIONS!

Paul is saying that Christ's death fully satisfied the demands of the law. There will never be any need for Christ to repeat His work on the cross. The blood He shed was sufficient to pay for the sins of the whole world. But it doesn't teach that all men are now justified in God's sight.

Romans 8: 1 says clearly that there is no no condemnation FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO LIVE AND WALK NOT AFTER THE DICTATES OF THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE DICTATES OF THE SPIRIT.

Notice that none of the apostles in the book of Acts preach that all men are now justified by Christ. What they preached was that if you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ [giving yourself up to Him, taking yourself out of your own keeping and entrusting yourself into His keeping], you will be saved. See the Amplified Bible at Acts 16: 31. That is the consistent message of the apostles.

Check out Hebrews 8 and 9. His work as our High Priest is just as necessary for our salvation as was His death on the cross.

[John317]

...4. The "righteous" while on this earth continue to live as Justified humans because they "trust" (have faith, believe) in what God through Jesus Christ has already done for them.

This means they are not saved by "their faith"! They are saved by Jesus Christ on what He did for them on the Cross!

We're really not saying anything different than you are here.

People aren't saved by their faith. You're right.

We are all saved by God's grace THROUGH FAITH in Jesus Christ.

People aren't justified [put in right relationship to God] in God's sight, however, until they personally accept the gift of salvation that comes only through Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[skyblue888]

"There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ. The grace of the Holy Spirit has been offered to you again and again." T.M.97.

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

sky

[skyblue888]

"God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin."

"The only way to attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith the sinner can bring to God the merits of Christ." F.W.100,101.

And "Righteousness is right doing." "Righteousness is obedience to the law." "Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God." C.O.L.312; F.A.101; M.B.18.

sky

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

That is not what Paul says in Romans chapter five!

Jesus' Death on the Cross Justified all men! That is what the Scripture says. There no "ands", no "ifs", no "buts" concerning that Biblical FACT!

There was NO WAITING TILL CHRIST ENTERED THE SANCTUARY OR PLEADING THE MERITS OR ANYTHING!

Romans chapter five is quite clear that the deal was all done on the Cross! NO OTHER ADDITIONS!

Paul is saying that Christ's death fully satisfied the demands of the law. There will never be any need for Christ to repeat His work on the cross. The blood He shed was sufficient to pay for the sins of the whole world. But it doesn't teach that all men are now justified in God's sight.

Romans 8: 1 says clearly that there is no no condemnation FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO LIVE AND WALK NOT AFTER THE DICTATES OF THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE DICTATES OF THE SPIRIT.

Notice that none of the apostles in the book of Acts preach that all men are now justified by Christ. What they preached was that if you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ [giving yourself up to Him, taking yourself out of your own keeping and entrusting yourself into His keeping], you will be saved. See the Amplified Bible at Acts 16: 31. That is the consistent message of the apostles.

Check out Hebrews 8 and 9. His work as our High Priest is just as necessary for our salvation as was His death on the cross.

John317 you are free to believe what you want! However what you say about Romans chapter five is not correct! Citing Romans chapter eight does not change anything about Romans chapter five. Romans chapter eight is talking about "Sanctification" and Romans chapter five is talking about "Justification"! These are two completely different processes!

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:6-21.

1. See verses eight and nine above they clearly state that while we humans were still sinners that God Justified us by the Blood of Jesus Christ! FACT!

2. Verse ten says that when we humans were still God's enemies God RECONCILED US through the death of Jesus Christ! FACT!

3. Verse eleven says we are to rejoice because while we are still sinners God RECONCILED US through Jesus Christ! FACT!

4. Again in verse sixteen it says that the Gift of God is that because of Jesus Christ's death we have been Justified! FACT!

5. Verse eighteen again states with great clarity that ALL HUMANS ARE JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST'S DEATH! FACT!

Paul repeats five times in this passage that WITHOUT ANY HUMAN INPUT WHATSOEVER that JESUS CHRIST'S DEATH JUSTIFIED ALL HUMANS!

It does not matter what you say the other apostles did because Paul in Romans chapter five says with repetitive clarity that ALL HUMANS HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED!

Jesus' Death on the Cross Justified all men! That is what the Scripture says. There no "ands", no "ifs", no "buts" concerning that Biblical FACT!

There was NO WAITING TILL CHRIST ENTERED THE SANCTUARY OR PLEADING THE MERITS OR ANYTHING!

Romans chapter five is quite clear that the deal was all done on the Cross! NO OTHER ADDITIONS!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...4. The "righteous" while on this earth continue to live as Justified humans because they "trust" (have faith, believe) in what God through Jesus Christ has already done for them.

This means they are not saved by "their faith"! They are saved by Jesus Christ on what He did for them on the Cross!

We're really not saying anything different than you are here.

People aren't saved by their faith. You're right.

We are all saved by God's grace THROUGH FAITH in Jesus Christ.

People aren't justified [put in right relationship to God] in God's sight, however, until they personally accept the gift of salvation that comes only through Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John317, you say I am right and that we are saying the same thing then you turn around and in the next sentence say just the opposite of what I am saying!

1. You are wrong when you assert "we are saved by God's grace through FAITH IN Jesus Christ." [QUOTING JOHN317]

That is not in agreement with Romans chapter five. "Faith" has nothing to do with our Justification! We are Justified flat out without any Faith on our part. In fact we have nothing, we do nothing, God Justified us APART FROM ANYTHING ANYWHERE!

FAITH COMES TOTALLY AFTER GOD HAS JUSTIFIED US! NOT BEFORE! YOU ARE ASSERTING THAT IT COMES BEFORE!

2. You are wrong when you say, "People aren't justified [put in right relationship to God] in God's sight, however, until they personally accept the gift of salvation that comes only through Jesus Christ." [QUOTING JOHN317]

This is again NOT what Paul is saying in Romans chapter five! Paul says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THE HUMAN SINNER BEING JUSTIFIED ONLY AFTER ACCEPTING THE GIFT!

PAUL SAYS ONLY THAT WHETHER OR NOT THE GIFT IS ACCEPTED THE HUMAN HAS ALREADY BEEN JUSTIFIED BEFORE ANY OF THAT!

You are adding things to what Paul has said that Paul does NOT SAY!

[John317]

[quote name="John317

People aren't saved by their faith. You're right.

[/u"]

We are all saved by God's grace THROUGH FAITH in Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted By: miz3

John317, you say I am right and that we are saying the same thing then you turn around and in the next sentence say just the opposite of what I am saying!

1. You are wrong when you assert "we are saved by God's grace through FAITH IN Jesus Christ." [QUOTING JOHN317]

That is not in agreement with Romans chapter five. "Faith" has nothing to do with our Justification! We are Justified flat out without any Faith on our part. In fact we have nothing, we do nothing, God Justified us APART FROM ANYTHING ANYWHERE!

I mean that we're not saved by faith. Faith is not meritorious, nor is it what saves us. God doesn't save us because of our faith.

That is the part that I believe is the same as what you are saying. I didn't mean to imply that everything I said was exactly what you are saying. I realize that's not true and is highly unlikely to happen. :-)

You claim here that people are not justified by faith.

Yet in this you flatly contradict Romans 5: 1--

"Therefore, having been JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

And again:

Romans 3: 22--" even the righteousness of God which is through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe."

Romans 3:24-28-- Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, [i say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Paul shows in Romans 8: 1 that "there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."

Wouldn't you agree that the whole world is not in Christ?

How do people become "in Christ."

Will anyone be saved without faith?

If you were to choose to reject your faith in Christ, would you be justified in God's sight?

[skyblue888]

It is true that God chose us all in Christ even before the foundation of the world, before we had any chance to do anything.

Yet we read that "Christ is our propitiation through faith in His blood." Rom.3:25.

This passage alone shows how important is the excercise of faith. Faith in His blood simply means that this blood that was shed is of value beyond estimate and that by laying hold upon its merits we are laying hold of the gift that brings all other blessings it its train. I am talking about the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." 5 T 744.

sky

[Overaged]

Quote:

John317 you are free to believe what you want! However what you say about Romans chapter five is not correct! Citing Romans chapter eight does not change anything about Romans chapter five. Romans chapter eight is talking about "Sanctification" and Romans chapter five is talking about "Justification"! These are two completely different processes!

I have never been able to really separate these two things quite this cut and dried. I think it's all just part of one thing, and that one thing is what happens to the helpless human agent at Calvary. To me, it sends out a mixed, and unfavorable message to get too dogmatic about separating these two processes too hard. Guess thats why Paul says in Gal 6:14 "God forbid that we glory, save in the cross of Jesus Christ."

[John317]

I agree.

I think the Bible is saying that God honors our freedom to choose or reject His offer of salvation. He's not pushing anyone into heaven who doesn't want to be there. Faith then is the way we choose Him. It is the means through which we receive God's free gift. Nobody works for it but we do have to put out our empty hand to receive the gift.

It's like all the people that Christ healed. They didn't have to work for their healing, but they did have to have faith.

It says that there were times when Christ couldn't do miracles of healing because people didn't have faith.

(Of course even our faith is a gift of God-- a gift that people accept or reject.)

The only ones who didn't need to have faith were the dead. But then God knew their hearts just as He knows the hearts of people sleeping in their graves today.

[John317]

John317 you are free to believe what you want! However what you say about Romans chapter five is not correct! Citing Romans chapter eight does not change anything about Romans chapter five. Romans chapter eight is talking about "Sanctification" and Romans chapter five is talking about "Justification"! These are two completely different processes!

While I agree that Sanctification and Justification are not the same thing, I think we do injustice to both of them when we try to make them completely different, as if the one has nothing to do with the other. Actually, the Bible teaches that there are two types of sanctification: one happens at the same instant as justification, and the other is a process that takes place over an entire lifetime.

Originally Posted By: miz3

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

....1. See verses eight and nine above they clearly state that while we humans were still sinners that God Justified us by the Blood of Jesus Christ! FACT!

Yes, it is certainly true that God sent Jesus to shed His blood before we even existed. God decided to do this while humanity was God's enemy. He didn't wait until we did anything good before Jesus came here and died for us.

But verse 9 does not say that we were justified by Christ's blood before we made any choice. It says that God demonstrated His love for us before we made any choice. That much is certainly true. But that is different from saying that all humanity were set right with God and declared righteous before they chose Christ. Verse 9 is addressed to believers who have declared their faith in Christ.

By sending Jesus, God showed His love for us, & His willingness to forgive us and to put us right with Himself, but the fact that humanity was not actually forgiven and put right with God is proved by the Flood. If those people were actually forgiven and put right with God, they certainly would not have been destroyed in the Flood.

What Christ's death did for humanity was give us a second probation. Without it, we all would have perished eternally.

[John317]

2. Verse ten says that when we humans were still God's enemies God RECONCILED US through the death of Jesus Christ! FACT!

God's sending Christ showed that God is not our enemy. The problem has never been that God does not love us. The problem is that mankind naturally is alientated from, and hates, God. Adam's reaction after the Fall says it all. What did Adam do? He ran and hid because he knew he had something evil and deserved punishment. Christ's death proved that God loves us and has done everything possible to bring us home again. But one thing God will not do is force us to accept Him.

It's a mistake to believe this verse teaches that faith in Christ is unnecessary.

Originally Posted By: miz3

3. Verse eleven says we are to rejoice because while we are still sinners God RECONCILED US through Jesus Christ! FACT!

Yes, God did this before we as individuals even existed. Therefore it is obvious that we did nothing to earn what God did for us.

Originally Posted By: miz3

4. Again in verse sixteen it says that the Gift of God is that because of Jesus Christ's death we have been Justified! FACT!

This is true: our justification is based only on the shed blood of Christ.

Originally Posted By: miz3

5. Verse eighteen again states with great clarity that ALL HUMANS ARE JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST'S DEATH! FACT!

No, this verse does not say that all human are justified by Christ's death prior to any choice on our part.

Here is the translation of the Christian Standard Bible of Romans 5: 18:

"So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone."

It's a mistake to understand this verse to teach that all humanity has been justified irrespective of any choice we make in our lifetime.

Originally Posted By: miz3

It does not matter what you say the other apostles did because Paul in Romans chapter five says with repetitive clarity that ALL HUMANS HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED!

Jesus' Death on the Cross Justified all men!

If your understanding of Romans 5 were correct, we could expect that the book of Acts would show the apostles preaching that all humans are already justified, and that justification has nothing to do with our choices; but this is something we don't find anywhere in Acts. Quite the contrary.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

People aren't saved by their faith. You're right.

[/u

We are all saved by God's grace THROUGH FAITH in Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted By: miz3

John317, you say I am right and that we are saying the same thing then you turn around and in the next sentence say just the opposite of what I am saying!

1. You are wrong when you assert "we are saved by God's grace through FAITH IN Jesus Christ." [QUOTING JOHN317]

That is not in agreement with Romans chapter five. "Faith" has nothing to do with our Justification! We are Justified flat out without any Faith on our part. In fact we have nothing, we do nothing, God Justified us APART FROM ANYTHING ANYWHERE!

I mean that we're not saved by faith. Faith is not meritorious, nor is it what saves us. God doesn't save us because of our faith.

That is the part that I believe is the same as what you are saying. I didn't mean to imply that everything I said was exactly what you are saying. I realize that's not true and is highly unlikely to happen. :-)

You claim here that people are not justified by faith.

Yet in this you flatly contradict Romans 5: 1--

"Therefore, having been JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

And again:

Romans 3: 22--" even the righteousness of God which is through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe."

Romans 3:24-28-- Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, [i say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Paul shows in Romans 8: 1 that "there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."

Wouldn't you agree that the whole world is not in Christ?

How do people become "in Christ."

Will anyone be saved without faith?

If you were to choose to reject your faith in Christ, would you be justified in God's sight?

1. You are taking Romans five verse one out of context! This verse goes within the last paragraph cited by Paul in Romans chapter four! IT IS NOT A STAND ALONE STATEMENT!

If it was a stand alone statement then Paul would be contradicting all the other things Paul says in Romans chapter five. Of course this cannot be so!

2. You are also quoting texts about "FAITH" as if "FAITH" has to go hand and hand with Justification! "FAITH" DOES NOT GO HAND IN HAND (SIMULTANEOUSLY, OR BEFORE) with "JUSTIFICATION"!

3. "FAITH" ALWAYS, ALWAYS COMES AFTER JUSTIFICATION!

4. Only the "Righteous" will exercise gift of "FAITH".

Here is the correct sequence:

a. Jesus Christ dies on the Cross and is raised from the grave!

b. While Jesus Christ is on the Cross and is raised from the grave, humans remain hostile to God!

c. However, God because of what Jesus Christ has done on the Cross and coming to life from the grave, makes ALL HUMANS JUSTIFIED!

d. Some humans are grateful to God and do not resist what God has done.

e. Unfortunately, many humans REJECT what God has done through Jesus Christ and their REJECTION makes them NOT JUSTIFIED!

f. The humans who do NOT REJECT God's gift begin to grow in God (SANCTIFICATION). These same humans Trust (FAITH) what God has done and is now doing in them. This is where FAITH comes into play. ONLY THE RIGHTEOUS WILL HAVE FAITH!

The lost do not have any FAITH! They have either out rightly REJECTED GOD'S GIFT or they REJECT GOD'S GIFT somewhere along the line in their SANCTIFICATION process!

g. You see only some experience the gift of FAITH (it comes from God)! They would be the RIGHTEOUS!

I believe that you get confused on this "SEQUENCE" because you are trying to protect your views on "Free Moral Agency"!

If humans do not do something then somehow your process is tainted in your view! Which is why you have to connect faith with Justification!

Paul in Romans puts the gift of "FAITH" as something the RIGHTEOUS are given after they are JUSTIFIED!

[miz3]

No, this verse does not say that all human are justified by Christ's death prior to any choice on our part.

Here is the translation of the Christian Standard Bible of Romans 5: 18:

"So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone."

It's a mistake to understand this verse to teach that all humanity has been justified irrespective of any choice we make in our lifetime.

In either version Paul is indeed saying that we are Justified prior to "any choice" we could make!

It is a BIG MISTAKE to think that we have any kind of "choice" in regard to Justification!

[miz3]

If your understanding of Romans 5 were correct, we could expect that the book of Acts would show the apostles preaching that all humans are already justified, and that justification has nothing to do with our choices; but this is something we don't find anywhere in Acts. Quite the contrary.

You statement is not necessarily true!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Here is the translation of the Christian Standard Bible of Romans 5: 18:

"So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone."

In either version Paul is indeed saying that we are Justified prior to "any choice" we could make!

Verse 18 is saying that justification comes through the righteous act of Christ, but it isn't suggesting that this justication is ours apart from any choice or belief on our part.

If you believe it is saying that, please show it.

"... there is life-giving justification for everyone" is quite different from saying that "everyone is already justified." The Bible nowhere says the latter.