Been reading the Testimonies....

[Just*]

The Bible teaches through “one man” (Adam) all were condemned to death (Ro.

5:12,18a). This is the “Bad News”. However the 2

nd

Ѕ of verse 18 clearly states that through

another man’s “righteous act (Jesus’ death) there resulted justification of life to all men.” This is

the “Good News of the Gospel.” Throughout chapter 5 of Romans the writer contrasts Jesus and

Adam to show how they both affected us all by what they did. In verse 20 the writer states, “But

where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.” Despite how awful sin has affected our

world, despite the condemnation that was brought upon all by Adam, “while we were still

helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. One will hardly die for a righteous man;

though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His

own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then,

having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much

more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life –Ro.5:6-10. Notice “while we were

enemies we WERE reconciled to God through the death of His Son.” Also “God WAS in Christ

reconciling the world to Himself NOT counting their trespasses against them.” “He died for ALL

so that they which live should no longer live for themselves but instead for Him who died and

rose again on their behalf.” –2 Cor. 5:19, 15. “But now has been revealed by the appearing of

our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death (Past tense), and brought life (Past tense) and

immortality to light (or illuminate) through the gospel” -2 Ti. 1:10 “For there is one God, and

one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom

for all, the testimony borne at the proper time -1 Ti 2:5-6. “For we also once were foolish

ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in

malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. BUT when the kindness of God our Savior and His

love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in

righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the

Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being

justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life”-Titus 3:3-7

It is clear that Jesus has justified ALL by His “blood” and “grace”. He reversed the

condemnation that Adam brought to us all, by His death, becoming the “propitiation (sacrifice)

for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world”-1 Jn.2:2. This

justification is sometimes called “legal Justification” by some people (including me) since the

“condemnation” brought by Adam upon ALL was a violation of the Legal Law of God. (You

may call this “all inclusive Justification” or what you’d like as long as we all realize that this

justification was initiated and given to all by God to reverse the legal condemnation that came

upon us through Adam, and it is not the same aspect of justification as Justification by faith . It is because of this legal justification that allowed the human race to live

despite our transgressions and sins. (Remember: “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is

eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” -Ro. 6:23) “He died for us so that we should no longer

live for ourselves.”

Romans chapter 4 shows that when a person realizes what God gave them by His death

(life) they will believe or be “justified by faith.” This justification by faith is used synonymously

with “believing” in the gospel & the accomplished works of Christ (See chapter 4). It is different

than legal justification since legal justification came before I believed or did anything thanks to

God, whereas Justification by faith is experienced through believing, or it’s my heart response to

what God did. John 3:15-19 shows what happens to one who believes in what Christ

accomplished at the cross or justified by faith (They will experience eternal life) but also how

unfortunately many will reject the “light” Jesus brought in through the gospel. It is clear that though Jesus is the “Saviour of the WORLD (1 John 4:14; John 4:42) many will reject the

justification He gave them at the cross, and choose to reject the blessing of life that came with it.

1 Ti. 4:10 says, “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the

living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

[John317]

Hey, Just, where did you copy this from? Do you have the link?

....It is clear that Jesus has justified ALL by His blood and grace;. He reversed the

condemnation that Adam brought to us all, by His death, becoming the propitiation (sacrifice)

for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world-1 Jn.2:2. This

justification is sometimes called ;legal Justification by some people (including me) since the

condemnation brought by Adam upon ALL was a violation of the Legal Law of God. (You

may call this all inclusive Justification or what you'd like as long as we all realize that this

justification was initiated and given to all by God to reverse the legal condemnation that came

upon us through Adam, and it is not the same aspect of justification as Justification by faith . It is because of this legal justification that allowed the human race to live

despite our transgressions and sins. (Remember: &the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is

eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord -Ro. 6:23) He died for us so that we should no longer

live for ourselves.

Romans chapter 4 shows that when a person realizes what God gave them by His death

(life) they will believe or be justified by faith. This justification by faith is used synonymously

with ;believing in the gospel & the accomplished works of Christ (See chapter 4). It is different

than legal justification since legal justification came before I believed or did anything thanks to

God, whereas Justification by faith is experienced through believing, or it's my heart response to

what God did. John 3:15-19 shows what happens to one who believes in what Christ

accomplished at the cross or justified by faith (They will experience eternal life) but also how

unfortunately many will reject the light& Jesus brought in through the gospel. It is clear that though Jesus is the Saviour of the WORLD (1 John 4:14; John 4:42) many will reject the

justification He gave them at the cross, and choose to reject the blessing of life that came with it.

OK, but this seems to be much different than what miz3 is saying. She seems to be saying that faith has nothing to do with justification. But you are saying that it does indeed have something to do with justification by faith. Yet at the same time you distinguish it from "legal justification," which occurred (you say) long before any of us were born; so that this legal justification does NOT have anything to do with faith or any other choice on man's part. He is justified whether he likes it or not.

You are saying, then, that all people, including Cain and Hitler and the worst human who ever lived, were justified in God's sight before they were born.

Do you believe that Hitler (for example) was justified until his death? In other words, since all people are justified, when do they cease to be justified?

Will any person be saved in God's kingdom ONLY on the basis of the "legal justification"?

What constitutes "legal justification"? Does it refer to all humans having the righteousness of Christ imputed to them?

If all I have is the legal justification, and if I reject the offer of justification by faith, I would not be saved, would I?

Would you please post all the main verses-- I mean the references-- which you believe teach "legal justification" of every person who's ever lived?

[miz3]

John317 you are free to believe what you want! However what you say about Romans chapter five is not correct!

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:6-21.

1. See verses eight and nine above they clearly state that while we humans were still sinners that God Justified us by the Blood of Jesus Christ! FACT!

2. Verse ten says that when we humans were still God's enemies God RECONCILED US through the death of Jesus Christ! FACT!

3. Verse eleven says we are to rejoice because while we are still sinners God RECONCILED US through Jesus Christ! FACT!

4. Again in verse sixteen it says that the Gift of God is that because of Jesus Christ's death we have been Justified! FACT!

5. Verse eighteen again states with great clarity that ALL HUMANS ARE JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST'S DEATH! FACT!

Paul repeats five times in this passage that WITHOUT ANY HUMAN INPUT WHATSOEVER that JESUS CHRIST'S DEATH JUSTIFIED ALL HUMANS!

It does not matter what you say the other apostles did because Paul in Romans chapter five says with repetitive clarity that ALL HUMANS HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED!

Jesus' Death on the Cross Justified all men! That is what the Scripture says. There no "ands", no "ifs", no "buts" concerning that Biblical FACT!

There was NO WAITING TILL CHRIST ENTERED THE SANCTUARY OR PLEADING THE MERITS OR ANYTHING!

Romans chapter five is quite clear that the deal was all done on the Cross! NO OTHER ADDITIONS!

[John317]

John317 you are free to believe what you want!

I know it. You have the very same freedom also, of course.

But I really don't believe what I want. I believe what my study of the Bible shows me the Bible teaches. I have no interest in believing something that is not true.

Originally Posted By: miz3

However what you say about Romans chapter five is not correct!

I don't mind you saying this at all. In fact, I want you to say it if you believe it, but you need to be able to show me from the Bible itself that this is true, and not simply tell me. SHOW ME. SHOW THE VERSES. You sometimes are not good at doing this.

I'm not too interested in people's opinions because no one will be saved on the basis of human opinion. Faith doesn't come by hearing people's opinions but by hearing or reading the word of God. Like they say, everyone has an opinion-- they're a penny a dozen, real REAL cheap.

[Just*]

Hey, Just...

(a) All the life and happiness which the world enjoys is the purchase of Christ's sacrifice. Every loaf of bread is stamped with His cross (John 6:32, 33, 35, 50-53; cf. The Desire of Ages, p. 660). This truth of total indebtedness to Him is the basis for all genuine Christian experience.

( If Christ had not died for the world, we would all have perished. The Father laid the trespasses of the world on Christ (2 Corinthians 5:19; Isaiah 53:5, 6). Thus, in a very real sense, Christ's sacrifice has justified "all men" by giving them a legal "verdict of acquittal" in place of that "judgment" of "condemnation" "in Adam" (Romans 3:23, 24; 5:15-18, NEB). When the sinner hears and believes the truth, he experiences justification by faith (Romans 4:25; Ephesians 2:8-10).

© The lost deliberately negate this justification Christ has effected for them, and take the "condemnation" back upon themselves (Hebrews 10:29; 2 Corinthians 6:1; cf. Steps to Christ, p. 27).

(d) Believers in Christ can say that "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins." But it is "not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2). "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish" (John 3:16). Since He paid the price for all our sins, the only reason anyone can be lost is refusal to believe, to appreciate, the gift already given "in Him" (verse 18). God does not put us in double jeopardy, for "the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6). How then can He lay that iniquity on us again? Paul asks (Romans 8:33-39). The lost take it back on themselves.

(e) All this adds up to a judicial "verdict of acquittal . . . and life for all men," just as surely as Adam's sin brought "a verdict . . . of condemnation for all men" (Romans 5:16-18, NEB.). The one who believes this Good News is motivated to total consecration of his all to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:14, 15).

AMEN!

http://www.gospel-herald.com/10truths/bible_-_1.htm

[Just*]

http://www.gospel-herald.com/walper_ann/what_is_justification/what_is_justification_1.htm

http://www.gospel-herald.com/primacy_studies/bible_study_eight.htm

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

John317 you are free to believe what you want!

I know it. You have the very same freedom also, of course.

But I really don't believe what I want. I believe what my study of the Bible shows me the Bible teaches. I have no interest in believing something that is not true.

Originally Posted By: miz3

However what you say about Romans chapter five is not correct!

I don't mind you saying this at all. In fact, I want you to say it if you believe it, but you need to be able to show me from the Bible itself that this is true, and not simply tell me. SHOW ME. SHOW THE VERSES. You sometimes are not good at doing this.

I'm not too interested in people's opinions because no one will be saved on the basis of human opinion. Faith doesn't come by hearing people's opinions but by hearing or reading the word of God. Like they say, everyone has an opinion-- they're a penny a dozen, real REAL cheap.

The very post from which you took my words above quoted Romans chapter five and showed you exactly what the Bible says!

Why did you only select the two statements cited above when that very same post quoted Romans chapter five and all the things you are asking for?

[skyblue888]

True, on the cross God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself but it won't do me or you any good unless we appropriate to ourselves the merits of that sacrifice and this we must do daily. "Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

With repentance and contrition, and with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness, we shall come to God, daily, just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, and apply to the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Unless we do this, we cannot be saved.

This is the faith that brings Christ's righteousness into the life and His righteousness accomplishes everything which is just another way of saying that "it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure" Phil.2:13. His righteousness, that is, His love, is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. "Love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom.13:10; 5:5; 3:25.

If we have a sense of need in our soul, if we hunger and thirst after righteousness, this is an evidence that Christ through the Spirit has wrought upon our hearts in order that He may be sought unto to do for us those things which it is impossible for us to do for ourselves.

"Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness. This the sinner owes to the law, but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith He can bring to God the merits of Christ." F.W.l01.

The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC and yet there is not even one in one hundred who understands it.

sky

"Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners. Not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." F.W.100,101.

[John317]

...http://www.gospel-herald.com/10truths/bible_-_1.htm

I noticed your link here is from the Lancaster Seventh-day Adventist Church. I have been there a number of times. I've a cousin that lives in Lancaster, California.

Have you ever been to that church?

I noticed that your posts place your location in the Ukraine. Yet you apparently speak and write perfectly good English. Are you yourself a native of the Ukraine?

[John317]

(a) All the life and happiness which the world enjoys is the purchase of Christ's sacrifice. Every loaf of bread is stamped with His cross (John 6:32, 33, 35, 50-53; cf. The Desire of Ages, p. 660). This truth of total indebtedness to Him is the basis for all genuine Christian experience.

( If Christ had not died for the world, we would all have perished. The Father laid the trespasses of the world on Christ (2 Corinthians 5:19; Isaiah 53:5, 6).

The above I completely agree with.

[John317]

... ( If Christ had not died for the world, we would all have perished. The Father laid the trespasses of the world on Christ (2 Corinthians 5:19; Isaiah 53:5, 6). Thus, in a very real sense, Christ's sacrifice has justified "all men" by giving them a legal "verdict of acquittal" in place of that "judgment" of "condemnation" "in Adam" (Romans 3:23, 24; 5:15-18, NEB). When the sinner hears and believes the truth, he experiences justification by faith (Romans 4:25; Ephesians 2:8-10).

© The lost deliberately negate this justification Christ has effected for them, and take the "condemnation" back upon themselves (Hebrews 10:29; 2 Corinthians 6:1; cf. Steps to Christ, p. 27).

Here is Steps To Christ, page 27:

Quote:

Christ must be revealed to the sinner as the Saviour dying for the sins of the world; and as we behold the Lamb of God upon the cross of Calvary, the mystery of redemption begins to unfold to our minds and the goodness of God leads us to repentance. In dying for sinners, Christ manifested a love that is incomprehensible; and as the sinner beholds this love, it softens the heart, impresses the mind, and inspires contrition in the soul. {SC 26.4}

It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?" {SC 27.1}

The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son.

Where does the above teach what you claim in the following sentences:

Quote:

© The lost deliberately negate this justification Christ has effected for them, and take the "condemnation" back upon themselves (Hebrews 10:29; 2 Corinthians 6:1; cf. Steps to Christ, p. 27).

Notice that Ellen White does not say that all the world has been "justified" by the blood of Christ. The Bible, properly understood, does not teach it, either.

What the Bible does teach is that the plan of salvation and Christ's death gave mankind a second probation, the first probation having been lost by Adam's sin.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Just*

... ( If Christ had not died for the world, we would all have perished. The Father laid the trespasses of the world on Christ (2 Corinthians 5:19; Isaiah 53:5, 6). Thus, in a very real sense, Christ's sacrifice has justified "all men" by giving them a legal "verdict of acquittal" in place of that "judgment" of "condemnation" "in Adam" (Romans 3:23, 24; 5:15-18, NEB). When the sinner hears and believes the truth, he experiences justification by faith (Romans 4:25; Ephesians 2:8-10).

© The lost deliberately negate this justification Christ has effected for them, and take the "condemnation" back upon themselves (Hebrews 10:29; 2 Corinthians 6:1; cf. Steps to Christ, p. 27).

Here is Steps To Christ, page 27:

Quote:

Christ must be revealed to the sinner as the Saviour dying for the sins of the world; and as we behold the Lamb of God upon the cross of Calvary, the mystery of redemption begins to unfold to our minds and the goodness of God leads us to repentance. In dying for sinners, Christ manifested a love that is incomprehensible; and as the sinner beholds this love, it softens the heart, impresses the mind, and inspires contrition in the soul. {SC 26.4}

It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?" {SC 27.1}

The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son.

Where does the above teach what you claim in the following sentences:

Quote:

© The lost deliberately negate this justification Christ has effected for them, and take the "condemnation" back upon themselves (Hebrews 10:29; 2 Corinthians 6:1; cf. Steps to Christ, p. 27).

Notice that Ellen White does not say that all the world has been "justified" by the blood of Christ. The Bible, properly understood, does not teach it, either.

What the Bible does teach is that the plan of salvation and Christ's death gave mankind a second probation, the first probation having been lost by Adam's sin.

Romans chapter five blatantly teaches that the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross JUSTIFIED every human that will ever exist without that human doing anything. NO STRINGS! NO CONDITIONS! JUST GOD'S FREE GIFT TO ALL HUMANITY!

[John317]

Romans chapter five blatantly teaches that the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross JUSTIFIED every human that will ever exist without that human doing anything. NO STRINGS! NO CONDITIONS! JUST GOD'S FREE GIFT TO ALL HUMANITY!

Please quote the references in Romans 5. Let's look at the texts.

Are you speaking specifically of Romasn 5: 18 & 19? Are there other verses you also refer to?

When you speak of "justification" in this instance, are you claiming that God forgives everyone and accounts all humans to be righteous like His Son?

Will anyone get into God's Kingdom because of the "justification" you are referring to? Or do people need to be jusified by faith" in order to be saved?

Finally, if we assume that God has justified all the people in the world, do they remain justified up until the very moment of their death?

[John317]

Do you agree with what "Just*" has posted about "legal justification" and "justification by faith" in his post #467424 ?

Are you trying to say the same thing as he is?

[miz3]

Romans chapter five blatantly teaches that the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross JUSTIFIED every human that will ever exist without that human doing anything. NO STRINGS! NO CONDITIONS! JUST GOD'S FREE GIFT TO ALL HUMANITY!

[ClubV12]

John317 says,

"...do they remain justified up until the very moment of their death?"

Hey, this is babylon enough without throwing in "once saved always saved" in with "predestination". Oh wait,,, maybe they are the same thing? If your predetermined, then it must follow, your once saved always saved?

It's enough to make one wonder why we even need the bible based on these two false doctrines.

[John317]

That's a thought all right. I'm wondering the same thing. Apparently no idea or doctrine is something that we should say is "false" or "wrong." The cry today is, "Personal liberty! Anarchy! Everyone's idea is true. It all depends on how you look at it. Catholic views of the Scripture just might be right after all. Who are we to say they are wrong? WE could be wrong and they could be correct."

This kind of thinking is entering the church and causing much confusion because people haven't been sanctified by the truth, so they aren't sure what it is. Ellen White said that before Jesus comes, the only way the followers of Christ will know the difference between what is false and true is by the Holy Spirit.

Could it be that point has already come?

[John317]

...

When you speak of "justification" in this instance, are you claiming that God forgives everyone and accounts all humans to be righteous like His Son?

Will anyone get into God's Kingdom because of the "justification" you are referring to? Or do people need to be jusified by faith" in order to be saved?

Finally, if we assume that God has justified all the people in the world, do they remain justified up until the very moment of their death?

Originally Posted By: miz3

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood

, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

....1. See verses eight and nine above they clearly state that while we humans were still sinners that God Justified us by the Blood of Jesus Christ! FACT!

I think you're misreading those verses, miz3.

Let's look at them carefully.

Notice verse 8 simply says that Christ died for us while we humans were still sinners. That is true both historically and experientially. That is to say, God gave Christ to die for me (and for you) 2000 years ago, and before either of us loved God or wanted anything to do with Him. Christ did not wait until we were repentent before dying on the cross.

But does Christ's coming and dying mean that all humans are declared "not guilty" of sin? No. The Bible teaches no such thing. If all humans were declared to be NOT guilty of sin, God would not have been punishing unrepentant sinners ever since the Fall. For instance, if God considered all humanity guiltless, would He have destroyed practically every person on earth at the time of the Flood? Clearly not!

Verse 9 is telling me that since I have been justified (which occurred the moment I fully accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior), I can be sure that I shall be saved through Christ from God's wrath against sin.

(Notice, though, that my salvation is NOT unconditional. It has conditions attached to it. The condition is that I continue believing in Christ as my personal Savior and Lord. And believing does not mean a mere intellecual assent to a fact. It means having a personal relationship with Christ, which the Bible elsewhere describes as "abiding in the vine," or abiding in Christ. What did Jesus say happens to those who do not abide in Him? See John 15: 6.)

I don't see any indication in those verses that Paul is saying all humanity has been already justified, or put in right relationship with God.

Could you please answer the 3 questions I asked at the beginning of my post-- in the quotes above? I didn't see any of the answers yet.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

...

When you speak of "justification" in this instance, are you claiming that God forgives everyone and accounts all humans to be righteous like His Son?

Will anyone get into God's Kingdom because of the "justification" you are referring to? Or do people need to be jusified by faith" in order to be saved?

Finally, if we assume that God has justified all the people in the world, do they remain justified up until the very moment of their death?

Originally Posted By: miz3

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood

, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

....1. See verses eight and nine above they clearly state that while we humans were still sinners that God Justified us by the Blood of Jesus Christ! FACT!

I think you're misreading those verses, miz3.

Let's look at them carefully.

Notice verse 8 simply says that Christ died for us while we humans were still sinners. That is true both historically and experientially. That is to say, God gave Christ to die for me (and for you) 2000 years ago, and before either of us loved God or wanted anything to do with Him. Christ did not wait until we were repentent before dying on the cross.

But does Christ's coming and dying mean that all humans are declared "not guilty" of sin? No. The Bible teaches no such thing. If all humans were declared to be NOT guilty of sin, God would not have been punishing unrepentant sinners ever since the Fall. For instance, if God considered all humanity guiltless, would He have destroyed practically every person on earth at the time of the Flood? Clearly not!

Verse 9 is telling me that since I have been justified (which occurred the moment I fully accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior), I can be sure that I shall be saved through Christ from God's wrath against sin.

(Notice, though, that my salvation is NOT unconditional. It has conditions attached to it. The condition is that I continue believing in Christ as my personal Savior and Lord. And believing does not mean a mere intellecual assent to a fact. It means having a personal relationship with Christ, which the Bible elsewhere describes as "abiding in the vine," or abiding in Christ. What did Jesus say happens to those who do not abide in Him? See John 15: 6.)

I don't see any indication in those verses that Paul is saying all humanity has been already justified, or put in right relationship with God.

Could you please answer the 3 questions I asked at the beginning of my post-- in the quotes above? I didn't see any of the answers yet.

[John317]

4. No one is asserting that your Salvation is unconditional. You are putting words into my mouth that I have never, ever asserted. You threatened to delete my posts for doing that very thing. Yet you do it and just did it!

I never asserted that you said salvation is unconditional.

If I make an observation about the Bible's teaching something, I am not claiming that you have rejected the observation. I am merely pointing out something important that many people misunderstand.

An example of putting those words in your mouth would be something like this:

"Why do you believe that our salvaation is unconditional?"

Or: "You believe that our salvation is unconditional."

I didn't do either of those things.

If I make a general observation about a Bible teaching or if I ask you if you believe a particular idea, that cannot justifiably be considered putting words in your mouth.

[John317]

When you speak of "justification" in this instance, are you claiming that God forgives everyone and accounts all humans to be righteous like His Son?

Will anyone get into God's Kingdom because of the "justification" you are referring to? Or do people need to be jusified by faith" in order to be saved?

Finally, if we assume that God has justified all the people in the world, do they remain justified up until the very moment of their death?

[John317]

2. The last part of verse eight goes with the first part of verse nine! You are not doing that! It is the same thought!

OK, let us look again at both Romans 5: 8 and 9:

5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Here's the NRSV--

5: 8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners, Christ died for us.

5: 9 Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath of God.

I still don't see how you get out of those verses that all humanity has been declared not guilty and fully righteous because of what Christ did on the cross.

It seems to me that it is talking to believers who have put their faith in Christ and therefore have been justified by God.

Paul is telling the believers in Rome that God proved or demonstrated that He loves us. God did this by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And then Paul says that since we have been justified by Christ's blood, it is even more certain that we will be saved from God's wrath.

You seem to be thinking that Paul is saying that God justified us at the same moment that He gave Christ to die for us.

But that is not what I understand Paul to be saying. Paul is saying that God demonstrated his love for us through Christ's death. Proving his love for us is the same thing as reconciling us to Himself.

It is true that God justifies us while we are still sinners. But I don't believe the Bible teaches that God justifies us before we are repentant for our sins or before we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. That also seems to me to be the clear message of Christ in the Gospels and of the apostles in the book of Acts.

Can you exegete the verses and show me your reasoning as you read them?

[Gerr]

The antideluvians were destroyed because they REJECTED God's Justification that was already done for them! That is why they were punished! That is also not the fullness of their punishment either!

4. No one is asserting that your Salvation is unconditional. You are putting words into my mouth that I have never, ever asserted. You threatened to delete my posts for doing that very thing. Yet you do it and just did it!

5. There are no conditions to a person being JUSTIFIED! You got it as a free unconditional GIFT FROM GOD! THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS!

6. Are there conditions to remaining in a saved state once you are JUSTIFIED?

YES! YES! YES! YES!

There are lots of conditions in order to REMAIN SAVED!

The antediluvians rejected.... No conditions to a person being justified..... There are conditions to remaining justified....

And then you claim man has for freedom of choice? You are one confused man!

[John317]

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! ....

...2. Verse ten says that when we humans were still God's enemies God RECONCILED US through the death of Jesus Christ! FACT!

The word "reconciled" is a translation of the Greek verb, katallasso, Strongs #2644.

It occurs only in the following verses in the NT:

Romans 5: 10; 1 Cor. 7: 11; 2 Cor. 7: 18, 19, and 20.

The noun, reconciliation, is translated from the Greek, katallage, Strongs #2643.

It only occurs in the following verses in the NT:

Romans 5: 11; 11: 15; and 2 Cor. 5: 18, 19.

Notice first that verse 10 of Romans 5 says that God has given His Son to die for us and we were reconciled to God through that death. All this happened while humanity was God's enemy. We had nothing to do with it. God did this simply because of His agape/love.

The question now is, does this reconcilation constitute the justification-- (which is the declaration by God that the human race is not guilty but is righteous)-- of the entire world?

[Just*]

...And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?" {SC 27.1}

The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son.