Been reading the Testimonies....

[John317]

Those are important and good verses, Just*, but are you claiming that they teach that all humanity is "justified"?

I don't see those verses as teaching all humanity has been justified.

I see those verses as addressed to believers who place all their faith and reliance upon Christ.

Jesus came and shed His blood-- gave His life-- for all humanity, and He stands with arms opened wide to receive all who come to Him in faith.

However, those verses don't teach that all human beings have been put in right relationship with God.

Because of Christ's death and resurrection, all human beings have been given a second trial-- a second probation-- instead of being destroyed as a result of Adam's decision to rebel against God.

All of us are on probation NOW.

I know it's hard for you to write English, but please tell whether you agree with what's written above.

Do you agree?

[John317]

... But the Good News comes in the next half of the

same sentence: and [all are] being justified freely by His grace through the redemption

that is in Christ Jesus (verse 24).

Notice that "being justified" is a present participle. It means that all people were NOT justified at some point in the past. People are being justified NOW THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST.

The "all" are all who have faith in Christ.

Look at verse 22:

3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Does it say that it is without faith and upon all humanity? NO. It says clearly "by faith... upon all who believe..."

Quote:

....It's wrong to say or think that our faith saves us. Faith is not our Savior. By

grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of

God. (Ephesians 2:8).

You are right that faith does NOT save us.

But notice that this verse says that God saves us by His grace THROUGH FAITH.

[John317]

Paul in Romans chapter five says nothing about "probation" but says a whole lot about JUSTIFICATION AS A GIFT FROM GOD APART FROM ANYTHING THAT HUMANS DO OR SAY!

...The Bible does not say that humans are on probation!

What is "probation"?

Was Adam on probation in the Garden?

[John317]

...Paul in Romans chapter five says nothing about "probation" but says a whole lot about JUSTIFICATION AS A GIFT FROM GOD APART FROM ANYTHING THAT HUMANS DO OR SAY!

Look at these verses on justification in both Romans 3 through 8 and Galatians 2 & 3:

Quote:

Romans 3: 21-31: "... the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe... being justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith.... [God] justifies him who has faith in Jesus... We hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law... [God] will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith..."

Romans 4: "'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.' ... We say that FAITH WAS RECKONED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS... [God's promise to Abraham] depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants---... to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all [who have faith]... That is why [Abraham's] faith was 'reckoned to him as righteousness.' But the words, 'it was reckoned to him,' were written not for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification."

Romans 5: "Therefore, since WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH... Christ died for ungodly... While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us... We are now justified by his blood... While we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son... Now that we are reconciled, we shall be saved by His life... We also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have NOW RECEIVED OUR RECONCILIATION.

... the judgment following one tresmass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more WILL THOSE WHO RECEIVE THE ABUNDANCE OF GRACE AND THE FREE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS REIGN IN LIFE THROUGH THE ONE MAN JESUS CHRIST.

Therefore, as through one man's offense [judgment came] to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act [the free gift came] to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous..."

Romans 6: "... For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life IN CHRIST Jesus our Lord."

Romans 8: "There is therefore now no condemnation TO THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

Galatians 2: "... knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law BUT BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH IN CHRIST..."

Galatians 3: " And the Scriptures, forseeing that God would justify the Gentiles BY FAITH, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, 'In your all the nations shall be blessed.' So then THOSE WHO ARE OF FAITH are blessed WITH BELIEVING ABRAHAM... But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for 'the just shall live by faith.'... The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH... FOR YOU ARE ALL SONS OF GOD THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS..."

Paul is consistent. One refrain runs through all those chapers, and that is, we are justified by faith. Paul was not saying that faith saves us or that we are justified because of our faith. Paul is saying, rather, that God justifies us and saves us by His grace, and this salvation by His grace is to be RECEIVED THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You are LOST BY WHAT YOU DO!

You are SAVED BY WHAT GOD DOES!

Very simple!

That is why we should all humble ourselves and thank the Almighty God for what He and He Alone has done!

For sure, we can't earn or merit salvation, but that doesn't mean that we don't have any part to play in salvation. Humans must cooperate with God.

WE are not saved by our obedience to God, but neither will anyone be saved without obedience to God.

It's extremely important to distinguish between "works of the law" and "works of faith." Works of faith are those works which result from a faith-based relationship with God. These are the same as the fruits of the Spirit.

Works of the law, on the other hand, are those works which people do for the purpose of earning salvation or merit and righteousness with God. They are absolutely worthless-- and even worse than worthless-- in the sight of God.

What kind of works did Jesus do?

Obviously Jesus did works of faith. His works were the result of His faith-based relationship with His heavenly Father.

Jesus is our example, our role-model.

As Paul wrote:

Gal.5:6-- For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal.6:15-- For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Romans chapter five clearly states that ALL HUMANS ARE JUSTIFIED ONLY BECAUSE OF WHAT JESUS CHRIST DID ON THE CROSS!

THAT IS NOW ESTABLISHED FACT!

If you would like to talk about what happens AFTER THAT FACT we can do that!

It seems that you do because everything you are citing and your own comments are talking about what happens AFTER JUSTIFICATION!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Paul in Romans chapter five says nothing about "probation" but says a whole lot about JUSTIFICATION AS A GIFT FROM GOD APART FROM ANYTHING THAT HUMANS DO OR SAY!

...The Bible does not say that humans are on probation!

What is "probation"?

Was Adam on probation in the Garden?

My comments were not about Adam but you and I and the rest of humanity!

Adam was tested! One can be tested but not be on probation!

Paul in Romans chapter five is not talking about you and I or any other human being on probation!

You keep trying to raise this "probation" term which is not used in regard to Salvation anywhere in the Bible!

[ClubV12]

Anybody who ever walked the face of the earth could have failed in the end. Jesus, Adam, Sister White, Paul, the thief on the cross, anybody. At any point in their life. Choice remains with us till the last breath.

[miz3]

John317 we have established through Romans chapter five that ALL HUMANS HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED BEFORE THEY EVEN EXISTED! WE HAVE ALSO ESTABLISHED THAT GOD DID THIS BY FIAT APART FROM ANY HUMAN ACTIVITY AT ALL!

It appears that you are confused about how GRACE, FAITH, WORKS, ETC. fit into the way God designed things!

Quote:

The FUNDAMENTAL LAW OF THE UNIVERSE:

EVERYTHING IS ABOUT WHAT GOD DOES AND NOTHING IS ABOUT HUMANS DO!THUS, ONLY GOD GETS GLORY! GOD WANTS EVERYTHING IN HIS CREATION TO SEE HIS GREATNESS!

In cruder language God is "showing off"! God delights in seeing His own Greatness! God then demands that everything bow down to His Greatness!

It is vital to "KNOW GOD" AND HOW GOD OPERATES! This is critical to understanding the Bible!

Most humans (because of our own sinful self-centeredness) care only about us and we read the Bible in regard to our centeredness!

In short, we read and interpret the Bible based on HUMAN CENTRICITY rather than read and interpret the Bible in regard GOD CENTEREDNESS!

It is natural for us humans to read and interpret the Bible in terms that everything is about us Humans!

THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THINKING SALVATION IN THE BIBLE IS ABOUT THE HUMAN OR SALVATION IN THE BIBLE IS ABOUT GOD!

I think most humans think that Salvation is all about humanity and that is the way they read and interpret the Bible. I also think that humans do this NATURALLY whether they realize it or not!

It is just natural because of our "sinful nature" for humans to operate in this fashion!

[John317]

...Romans chapter five clearly states that ALL HUMANS ARE JUSTIFIED ONLY BECAUSE OF WHAT JESUS CHRIST DID ON THE CROSS!

THAT IS NOW ESTABLISHED FACT!

No one is denying that we cannot add anything to Christ's work on the cross. Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for everyone and the shedding of his blood is never to be repeated. That is not where we differ. We differ in that you believe all men were justified before they were born. I believe, on the other hand, that Paul teaches believers are justified at the moment they place all of their faith in Christ and accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

Where exactly do you find among these statements by the Apostle Paul the teaching that all humanity was justified before anyone existed? Be sure to read all of them.

Quote:

Romans 3: 21-31: "... the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe... being justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith.... [God] justifies him who has faith in Jesus... We hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law... [God] will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith..."

Romans 4: "'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.' ... We say that FAITH WAS RECKONED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS... [God's promise to Abraham] depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants---... to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all [who have faith]... That is why [Abraham's] faith was 'reckoned to him as righteousness.' But the words, 'it was reckoned to him,' were written not for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification."

Romans 5: "Therefore, since WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH... Christ died for ungodly... While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us... We are now justified by his blood... While we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son... Now that we are reconciled, we shall be saved by His life... We also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have NOW RECEIVED OUR RECONCILIATION.

... the judgment following one tresmass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more WILL THOSE WHO RECEIVE THE ABUNDANCE OF GRACE AND THE FREE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS REIGN IN LIFE THROUGH THE ONE MAN JESUS CHRIST.

Therefore, as through one man's offense [judgment came] to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act [the free gift came] to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous..."

Romans 6: "... For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life IN CHRIST Jesus our Lord."

Romans 8: "There is therefore now no condemnation TO THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

Galatians 2: "... knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law BUT BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH IN CHRIST..."

Galatians 3: " And the Scriptures, forseeing that God would justify the Gentiles BY FAITH, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, 'In your all the nations shall be blessed.' So then THOSE WHO ARE OF FAITH are blessed WITH BELIEVING ABRAHAM... But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for 'the just shall live by faith.'... The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH... FOR YOU ARE ALL SONS OF GOD THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS..."

[John317]

For sure, we can't earn or merit salvation, but that doesn't mean that we don't have any part to play in salvation. Humans must cooperate with God.

WE are not saved by our obedience to God, but neither will anyone be saved without obedience to God.

It's extremely important to distinguish between "works of the law" and "works of faith." Works of faith are those works which result from a faith-based relationship with God. These are the same as the fruits of the Spirit.

Works of the law, on the other hand, are those works which people do for the purpose of earning salvation or merit and righteousness with God. They are absolutely worthless-- and even worse than worthless-- in the sight of God.

What kind of works did Jesus do?

Obviously Jesus did works of faith. His works were the result of His faith-based relationship with His heavenly Father.

Jesus is our example, our role-model.

As Paul wrote:

Gal.5:6-- For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal.6:15-- For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Originally Posted By: miz3

...If you would like to talk about what happens AFTER THAT FACT we can do that!

It seems that you do because everything you are citing and your own comments are talking about what happens AFTER JUSTIFICATION!

I wrote the above statements in response to your post which said that what we do kills us and only Christ's work will save us.

But what you evidently meant was that everything we "do" to be justified will kill us and only Christ can justify us.

Is this what you mean?

If it is, we are in agreement so far as that goes.

But we would still disagree over the issue of when people are justified. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that believers are justified the moment they sincerely and completely submit themselves to Christ and place their faith in Him as their personal Savior and Lord. I believe the same thing that Paul preached to the Philippian jailer in Acts. 16: 31. It is the same thing that is taught all through the New Testament. It is also what Christ taught. He certainly said nothing which indicates that all humanity is already justified.

Look at what Peter preached under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

Quote:

10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

10:37 That word, [i say], ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly;

10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.

10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Again, here's the great Apostle Paul on how to be saved:

Quote:

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]

10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Neither Paul nor Peter ever preached anything which suggests that all of mankind had already been justified even before they came into existence. If what you say is true, why don't we find it in the sermons and writings of Peter and Paul. You claim that it is what Paul teaches, but Paul's words are plain, that people are justified by faith. He repeats this refrain over and over again in both Romans and Galatians. How you miss that is a great puzzle to me.

[Just*]

... but please tell whether you agree with what's written above.

Do you agree?

"Adam, then, was the figure of Him that was to come. That one to come is Christ. Adam was the figure of Him.  Wherein was Adam the figure of Him? In his righteousness? No. For he did not keep it. In his sin? No. For Christ did not sin. Wherein, then, was Adam the figure of Christ? In this: That all that were in the world were included in Adam, and all that are in the world are included in Christ. In other words: Adam in his sin reached all the world; Jesus Christ, the second Adam, in His righteousness touches all humanity. That is where Adam is the figure of Him that was to come. So read on: But not as the offense, so also is the free gift: for if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. There are two men, then, whom we are studying: That one man by whom sin entered; that one man by whom righteousness entered. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification. For if by one man's offense death reigned by one [that is, by the first Adam]; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ [the second Adam]. Read another text in connection with this before we touch the particular study of it. 1 Cor. 15:45--49: So it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. The first Adam touched all of us; what he did included all of us. If he had remained true to God, that would have included all of us. And when he fell away from God, that included us and took us also. Whatever he should have done embraced us, and what he did made us what we are.

Now here is another Adam. Does He touch as many as the first Adam did? That is the question. That is what we are studying now. Does the second Adam touch as many as did the first Adam? And the answer is that it is certainly true that what the second Adam did embraces all that were embraced in what the first Adam did. What he should have done, what he could have done, would embrace all." A. T. Jones.1895 G.C. Sermon #14

[John317]

Yes, I like A.T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner and agree with most of what they wrote up to about 1900.

Thank you for posting.

You did not answer my question as to whether you agree with my previous post.:-)

[Just*]

Since Jesus gave His life as a ransom for all, it is clear that He redeemed

the human race “from the curse of the law” and therefore also justified

everyone “freely by His grace.” (1Timothy 2:6; Galatians 3:13).

God’s choice to redeem the human race and justify everyone by His

grace is what enables each person to have the freedom to choose.

Redemption is a legal transaction. Jesus purchased all of us with His

blood (1 Corinthians 6:19,20; 1 Peter 1:18).

[miz3]

We differ in that you believe all men were justified before they were born. I believe, on the other hand, that Paul teaches believers are justified at the moment they place all of their faith in Christ and accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

[miz3]

We differ in that you believe all men were justified before they were born. I believe, on the other hand, that Paul teaches believers are justified at the moment they place all of their faith in Christ and accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

Paul in Romans chapter five agrees with me! Paul in Romans chapter five does NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU BELIEVE!

Once you come to the point of agreeing with Paul and what Paul states in Romans chapter five then and only then can we discuss what Paul means in the other texts!

If you do NOT UNDERSTAND THIS FOUNDATION OF SALVATION it is not of much value for us to discuss the other parts of Salvation stated in the texts you cite!

Below is Romans chapter five again!

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:6-21.

1. See verses eight and nine above they clearly state that while we humans were still sinners that God Justified us by the Blood of Jesus Christ! FACT!

2. Verse ten says that when we humans were still God's enemies God RECONCILED US through the death of Jesus Christ! FACT!

3. Verse eleven says we are to rejoice because while we are still sinners God RECONCILED US through Jesus Christ! FACT!

4. Again in verse sixteen it says that the Gift of God is that because of Jesus Christ's death we have been Justified! FACT!

5. Verse eighteen again states with great clarity that ALL HUMANS ARE JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST'S DEATH! FACT!

Paul repeats five times in this passage that WITHOUT ANY HUMAN INPUT WHATSOEVER that JESUS CHRIST'S DEATH JUSTIFIED ALL HUMANS!

Paul in Romans chapter five says with repetitive clarity that ALL HUMANS HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED!

Jesus' Death on the Cross Justified all men! That is what the Scripture says. There no "ands", no "ifs", no "buts" concerning that Biblical FACT!

Romans chapter five is quite clear that the deal was all done on the Cross! NO OTHER ADDITIONS!

[John317]

OK, you are talking, then, about two different "justifications," right?

One is the "legal justification" of the whole human race, and the other is "justification by faith."

I don't see the Bible as teaching this.

What I see the Bible (and the Spirit of prophecy) teaching is that at the Fall of Adam, the plan of redemption immediately set in motion God's plan to give mankind a second probation, or a second trial.By a second probation, I mean that instead of allowing mankind to reap the consequences of sin-- which is eternal death-- God promised the coming Messiah would would shed His blood for us. This is spoken of in Romans 3: 21-26.

That is the Bible picture and certainly also the way Ellen White describes it. She says nothing about two different justifications, and I don't believe the Bible does either.

Have you looked carefully at the verses I quoted from Romans and Galatians in one of my previous posts? Can you show me which lines appear to you to teach that the whole human race has been "justified"?

And what do you mean by "justification" when you are using it in relationship to the justification of the whole human race?

How do you define this kind of justification? Are you saying God has declared that all the world is acquited of sin and that everyone is perfectly righteous as Christ?

[John317]

Paul in Romans chapter five agrees with me! Paul in Romans chapter five does NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU BELIEVE!

OK, but it needs to be established by evidence and valid reasoning in the Scriptures. It requires more than a mere declaration or conclusion that your viewpoint is true. I could make the same declaration, right?

Quote:

Once you come to the point of agreeing with Paul and what Paul states in Romans chapter five then and only then can we discuss what Paul means in the other texts!

If you do NOT UNDERSTAND THIS FOUNDATION OF SALVATION it is not of much value for us to discuss the other parts of Salvation stated in the texts you cite!

But that isn't how we should study the Bible. The whole Bible needs to be taken into account. The Bible sheds light on itself and explains itself. It doesn't contradict itself.

Are you telling me you think that Paul does not teach that people are justified by faith?

If so, why do you think all those verses are telling us that "we are justified by faith"?

[miz3]

Paul in Romans chapter five agrees with me! Paul in Romans chapter five does NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU BELIEVE!

[John317]

Below is Romans chapter five again!

[color:#000099]"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

1. See verses eight and nine above they clearly state that while we humans were still sinners that God Justified us by the Blood of Jesus Christ! FACT!

Here are those verses:

8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

You appear to me to be reasoning that we were all justified at the same moment that Christ died for us.

However, is that really what Paul is saying there? It is certainly true that Christ died for us before we were born. But it is by no means certain that Paul is telling us we were justified at that same time when Christ shed His blood.

If Paul were saying that, he would have said, "Since all mankind was THEN justified by his blood," or "Since we were justified when He died," etc.

But notice that Paul instead says, "Since we have NOW BEEN justified..."

This construction lends itself to the view that Paul is signifying his readers were recently justified by faith in Christ. That is, they were justified at the moment they received Christ and the reconciliation offered to them by God. This would harmonize perfectly with Romans 5: 11, which says that we are to receive the reconciliation. How do we receive reconciliation? By repentence and faith, of course.

You appear to me to have forgotten or ignored the first two verses of this chapter:

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Notice that it says we are "justified by faith" and that through Christ we have "access by faith" into God's grace. So this peace with God comes after we are justified by faith, and this peace is "through our Lord Jesus Christ."

I've noticed that this justification is "in Christ." What does it mean to be "in Christ"? It means to be in union with Him, and that can only happen through faith in Him. No one is "in Christ" apart from faith in Christ. The whole world-- all humanity-- is not "in Christ." How do we know this? Because Paul says plainly that "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation." We only become a new creation through the Spirit of Christ. In other words, when we are truly in Christ, Christ is also in us by His Holy Spirit. So Paul says in Romans 8: 9, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

Romans 8: 1 says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."

This can only mean that when people are not "in Christ Jesus," there is condemnation.

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. Verse ten says that when we humans were still God's enemies God RECONCILED US through the death of Jesus Christ! FACT!

10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Let's put 2 Cor. 5: 18-21 alongside Romans 5: 10:

Quote:

5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[Just*]

OK, you are talking, then, about two different "justifications," right?

One is the "legal justification" of the whole human race, and the other is "justification by faith."

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Below is Romans chapter five again!

[color:#000099]"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

1. See verses eight and nine above they clearly state that while we humans were still sinners that God Justified us by the Blood of Jesus Christ! FACT!

Here are those verses:

8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

You appear to me to be reasoning that we were all justified at the same moment that Christ died for us.

However, is that really what Paul is saying there? It is certainly true that Christ died for us before we were born. But it is by no means certain that Paul is telling us we were justified at that same time when Christ shed His blood.

If Paul were saying that, he would have said, "Since all mankind was THEN justified by his blood," or "Since we were justified when He died," etc.

But notice that Paul instead says, "Since we have NOW BEEN justified..."

This construction lends itself to the view that Paul is signifying his readers were recently justified by faith in Christ. That is, they were justified at the moment they received Christ and the reconciliation offered to them by God. This would harmonize perfectly with Romans 5: 11, which says that we are to receive the reconciliation. How do we receive reconciliation? By repentence and faith, of course.

You appear to me to have forgotten or ignored the first two verses of this chapter:

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Notice that it says we are "justified by faith" and that through Christ we have "access by faith" into God's grace. So this peace with God comes after we are justified by faith, and this peace is "through our Lord Jesus Christ."

I've noticed that this justification is "in Christ." What does it mean to be "in Christ"? It means to be in union with Him, and that can only happen through faith in Him. No one is "in Christ" apart from faith in Christ. The whole world-- all humanity-- is not "in Christ." How do we know this? Because Paul says plainly that "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation." We only become a new creation through the Spirit of Christ. In other words, when we are truly in Christ, Christ is also in us by His Holy Spirit. So Paul says in Romans 8: 9, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

Romans 8: 1 says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."

This can only mean that when people are not "in Christ Jesus," there is condemnation.

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. Verse ten says that when we humans were still God's enemies God RECONCILED US through the death of Jesus Christ! FACT!

10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Let's put 2 Cor. 5: 18-21 alongside Romans 5: 10:

Quote:

5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1. Once again you pick only bits and pieces of the entire post!

This seems to be a tactic of yours in order to blunt the effect of Romans chapter five! In my experience such tactics are known in debating circles as an effective way making an opponent look bad by ruining the context! This debating tactic when used by debaters is used in order to "win" a debate and not as device to find TRUTH!

Is this what you are doing?

2. We have already covered what Romans chapter five verses one and two mean!

Again you are bringing up something as if we have not covered it already and mixing it in with your "abbreviated" look at Romans chapter five!

Is this more debater tactics?

3. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 is talking about something that occurs after JUSTIFICATION and thus cannot be compared to Romans Chapter five! I have warned you about this before!

Why do you persist in these debater tactics? Are you interested in TRUTH or do you want to just have a debate? Is your only objective to "BEAT ME"!?

[miz3]

Paul in Romans chapter five agrees with me! Paul in Romans chapter five does NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU BELIEVE!

[John317]

Is that a quote from Jack Sequiera?

[miz3]

Is that a quote from Jack Sequiera?

NO! NO! NO!

I do not do that!

These are my own words except for the Biblical quotes!

I do not need to bring in whole passages of quotes from other humans.

Whenever I quote others words everybody will know that these are words are not my own!

[John317]

miz3, I intended that post for Just*. I am asking Just* if he quoted Jack Sequeira. I know you did not.

If you look carefully, you will see [Just*] at the top of my post. That means I was replying to his post.