Been reading the Testimonies....

[ClubV12]

Why should we have to even discuss this?

Good question, I have no good answer. This kind of stuff comes up often, is repeated and discussed at length. There is no point, it's pretty much a waste of time as it covers the same ground in many different threads.

SDA's do not believe in predestination, thats the end of it (you would think).

[John317]

To be "justified," to be "accounted righteous," and "to have righteousness imputed," are all the same thing, miz3.

See Romans 4: 2,3, 5, 6.

"The righteousness of faith" is the same as "justification by faith." See Rom. 4: 1-12.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Maybe in your view but not always is this so in the Bible!

You make a mere claim here. I could easily make the same claim.

Give examples of where this is NOT true.

[John317]

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Everyone, including even the trees and the animals, reap the benefits of Jesus Christ's one act of rightousness. But that is not the same as saying that God has justified-- imputed the righteousness of Christ to-- everyone who's ever been born, irrespective of people's choices.

Everyone who's ever been born has not been put in right relationship with God. That is obvious.

The preaching of the apostles in Acts was never, "You have all been justified-- you just don't know it yet." Their preaching under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was that if you put your faith in Christ and accept Him as your Savior and Lord, you will be saved.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

To be "justified," to be "accounted righteous," and "to have righteousness imputed," are all the same thing, miz3.

See Romans 4: 2,3, 5, 6.

"The righteousness of faith" is the same as "justification by faith." See Rom. 4: 1-12.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Maybe in your view but not always is this so in the Bible!

You make a mere claim here. I could easily make the same claim.

Give examples of where this is NOT true.

[John317]

To be "justified," to be "accounted righteous," and "to have righteousness imputed," are all the same thing, miz3.

See Romans 4: 2,3, 5, 6.

"The righteousness of faith" is the same as "justification by faith." See Rom. 4: 1-12.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Maybe in your view but not always is this so in the Bible!

Originally Posted By: John3:17

You make a mere claim here. I could easily make the same claim.

Give examples of where this is NOT true.

Originally Posted By: miz3

I have already shown you in our discussion of Romans chapter five!

Romans chapter five repeatedly states that ALL HUMANITY (Past, Present, and Future) has been JUSTIFIED BY GOD'S FIAT (not our choice)!

I am NOT asking you to show where you think Paul is saying all humanity has been justified.

I am asking you to show Bible evidence that "To be "justified," to be "accounted righteous," and "to have righteousness imputed," are NOT the same thing.

See Romans 4: 2,3, 5, 6 for proof that those expressions do mean the same thing.

Also I am asking you to show Bible evidence that "the righteousness of faith" is NOT the same as "justification by faith." See Rom. 4: 1-12 for evidence that they are the same.

[miz3]

I am NOT asking you to show where you think Paul is saying all humanity has been justified.

I am asking you to show Bible evidence that "To be "justified," to be "accounted righteous," and "to have righteousness imputed," are NOT the same thing.

See Romans 4: 2,3, 5, 6 for proof that those expressions do mean the same thing.

Also I am asking you to show Bible evidence that "the righteousness of faith" is NOT the same as "justification by faith." See Rom. 4: 1-12 for evidence that they are the same.

Romans chapter four is NOT PROOF OF YOUR POSITION!

In fact Romans chapter four is proof of my position!

You misapply the Scripture!

[John317]

Please answer the following questions concerning Romans 4:

1) What does Romans 4:9 say was accounted to Abraham for righteousness?

4:9 .... for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

2) In verses 10, 11 does it indicate that Abraham was accounted righteous, or justified, before birth?

4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

3) What does Romans 4: 22 say was imputed to Abraham for righteousness?

4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

[John317]

As I said before you are free to mix and match as what pleases you. That does of course not make it true! You are also free to believe whatever doctrine that pleases you as well. That does not make it Biblical!

This is no evidence of anything. Anyone could make such an obvservation irrespective of their belief. I could say the same about you, but I realize the uselessness of such a remark, so I refrain. It isn't helpful to any kind of dialogue and therefore we're better off staying on the topic and the evidence.

[John317]

John317 my opinion is that the fundamental problems with your view of things is that you don't really "know God" and what He is about! (NOT AN INSULT)!

....Like I said the problem with your theology and the theology of many other humans, John317, in my opinion is that they really do not know God even though the Scriptures are very clear and plain about who God is! Most people only know the God that is created in their mind by many human entities, including but not limited to the church, parents, life experiences, books they read (outside of Scripture), history, science, etc.!

This is your opinion, and you have every right to your opinion, of course, but in an exchange, it doesn't help to try and draw these kinds of conclusions about people, since you don't know them personally and can't read people's hearts and minds.

It is best to leave these kinds of things in your mind and not reveal your thinking about them, particularly on the Forum.

As I said in my previous post, anyone could say the same things about you, but they're not helpful in the discussion of the topic. They tend to show an awareness on the part of people that they have little or no valid evidence in support of their argument.

So let's lay the personal "not-insults" aside and focus on the topic and the evidence.

:-)

[John317]

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.

Romans 5:9 ... justified by His blood...

15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

These are all verses dealing with the justification of believers through faith.

Christ did give Himself a ransom for all mankind, but the Bible also makes abundantly clear that this ransom must be received. How it is received? Through faith, of course.

Do you believe that all the people who died in Flood were justified/forgiven/ and accounted as righteous as Christ is?

Please answer this:

If Abraham was justified along with all humanity before he was born, why does it say over and over again that Abraham was justified by faith, and that righteousness "will be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead"? Romans 4: 24.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

John317 my opinion is that the fundamental problems with your view of things is that you don't really "know God" and what He is about! (NOT AN INSULT)!

....Like I said the problem with your theology and the theology of many other humans, John317, in my opinion is that they really do not know God even though the Scriptures are very clear and plain about who God is! Most people only know the God that is created in their mind by many human entities, including but not limited to the church, parents, life experiences, books they read (outside of Scripture), history, science, etc.!

This is your opinion, and you have every right to your opinion, of course, but in an exchange, it doesn't help to try and draw these kinds of conclusions about people, since you don't know them personally and can't read people's hearts and minds.

It is best to leave these kinds of things in your mind and not reveal your thinking about them, particularly on the Forum.

As I said in my previous post, anyone could say the same things about you, but they're not helpful in the discussion of the topic. They tend to show an awareness on the part of people that they have little or no valid evidence in support of their argument.

So let's lay the personal "not-insults" aside and focus on the topic and the evidence.

:-)

Yes it is my opinion! However, I was basing my opinion on things you have said that seem to me to say that and NOT WHAT I THINK IS IN YOUR MIND!

Yes, you are correct that my opinion could be wrong! You are also correct that others could say the same about me! That is precisely why it is great that we live in an environment of freedom rather than in environment where our opinions are stifled, deleted, or worse yet our person is put away in some manner!

Others have expressed very strong and acid opinions about miz3 on this forum. They are indeed entitled to their views. I am only expecting that my opinions get the same treatment as others. I am not more privileged nor am I to be more restricted!

[John317]

One of the rules of this forum is that you may attack ideas, evidence, and opinions, but not persons.

You'll need to abide by those rules if you want to post here. I will do the same.

Let's get back to the topic and away from personalities or your opinion of persons.

[miz3]

John317, Romans chapter five repeatedly, clearly, and unambiguously states that ALL HUMANS who will exist from Adam to the Second Coming have been JUSTIFIED!

From Revelation 13:8 we get support for the fact that the humans prior to the Cross are also covered by the JUSTIFICATION Paul speaks of in Romans chapter five.

This JUSTIFICATION has nothing to do with FAITH, or anything else! It is a flat out Gift from God!

Does this mean that FAITH is worthless in the human's experience?

NO! NO! NO!

In addition the term RIGHTEOUSNESS is not exclusive in human experience to JUSTIFICATION!

RIGHTEOUSNESS IS ALL OVER THE CHRISTIAN HUMAN EXPERIENCE!

Thus, RIGHTEOUSNESS occurs post JUSTIFICATION as well as at the moment of JUSTIFICATION!

You see John317 you would be correct if RIGHTEOUSNESS occurred only at the point of JUSTIFICATION! However, that is not how RIGHTEOUSNESS WORKS!

In the Christian experience RIGHTEOUSNESS occurs many times. God accounts ALL OUR GOOD WORKS to us as RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH! This is the basis of our heavenly rewards!

In fact all our "GOOD WORKS" occur because of our "FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST".

If we do NOT have "FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST" the human would never do good works.

This is what happened to Abraham. Abraham, already JUSTIFIED, believed (had faith, trust) in what God told him in Genesis chapter fifteen and because of that "FAITH" God accounted that to Abraham as RIGHTEOUSNESS!

To say that Abraham when led by God in Genesis chapter twelve many years before Genesis chapter fifteen was NOT JUSTIFIED until chapter fifteen clearly is not true because of Romans chapter five and Revelation chapter thirteen!

In Romans chapter four Paul is pointing out that Abraham was accounted RIGHTEOUS BY FAITH and not by OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW! That is what Romans chapter four is about and is not about JUSTIFICATION AT ALL!

JUSTIFICATION comes about in Romans chapter five!

[John317]

...From Revelation 13:8 we get support for the fact that the humans prior to the Cross are also covered by the JUSTIFICATION Paul speaks of in Romans chapter five.

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You'll need to base your view on something besides Rev. 13: 8.

That verse legitimately may also be translated:

"... everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered." Christian Standard Bible.

But even if we translate it as the KJV does, it still does not teach that all humans are justified. It simply means that the plan for Christ to be sacrificed was made from the foundation of the world. In other words, that was the covenant made between Christ and the Father. Nothing is said there about humanity being justified.

[wayfinder]

Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him (the beast), everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

parenthesis mine.

How does this text show justification? It is talking about those who worship the beast. Those who worship the beast and receive his mark will be completely distroyed, not justified. Those whose name is written in the Lamb's book are the names of those who do not worship the beast. No person who has died before the appearence of the beast could or would qualify. I am not saying they would not qualify for salvation, but for those who are alive at the end during the judgment of the living, not the judgment of those who have fallen asleep(in death).

Revelation 13:4 NAS

they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast ; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?"

Our good works are a result of our love for Christ.

[John317]

I'm asking for verses in the Bible showing that "justified," "accounted righteous," and having righteousness imputed, do NOT mean the same thing.

Can you offer Bible evidence in support of your argument?

[John317]

...You see John317 you would be correct if RIGHTEOUSNESS occurred only at the point of JUSTIFICATION! However, that is not how RIGHTEOUSNESS WORKS!

In the Christian experience RIGHTEOUSNESS occurs many times. God accounts ALL OUR GOOD WORKS to us as RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH! This is the basis of our heavenly rewards!

In fact all our "GOOD WORKS" occur because of our "FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST".

If we do NOT have "FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST" the human would never do good works.

But I have not argued at all that "righteousness" only occurs at the point where people are justified by faith. If you believe I have, please show the quote that made you think so.

You said, "God accounts ALL OUR GOOD WORKS to us as RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH!"

Please show where the Bible clearly teaches this. What verses do you have in mind? I'm trying to understand exactly what you mean. Your words can be understood in different ways.

[John317]

....In Romans chapter four Paul is pointing out that Abraham was accounted RIGHTEOUS BY FAITH and not by OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW! That is what Romans chapter four is about and is not about JUSTIFICATION AT ALL!

JUSTIFICATION comes about in Romans chapter five!

OK, so you understand that Paul teaches in Romans 4 that Abraham was accounted righteous by faith.

"Accounted righteous by faith" is the same as "justified by faith."

Since Abraham was "accounted righteous by faith," or justified by faith, how then can you claim that Abraham was justified before he even existed? Obviously someone who doesn't yet exist cannot have faith.

Also, since you understand that Romans 4 is about Abraham's being accounted righteous by faith, how can you claim that Romans 4 is "not about justification at all"?

Doesn't Galatians 4 teach the same thing as Romans 4 and 5?

Gal. 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Question: Why would Galatians 3: 8 teach that "God would justify the heathen through faith," if the heathen and everyone else were already justified long before they existed?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...From Revelation 13:8 we get support for the fact that the humans prior to the Cross are also covered by the JUSTIFICATION Paul speaks of in Romans chapter five.

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You'll need to base your view on something besides Rev. 13: 8.

That verse legitimately may also be translated:

"... everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered." Christian Standard Bible.

But even if we translate it as the KJV does, it still does not teach that all humans are justified. It simply means that the plan for Christ to be sacrificed was made from the foundation of the world. In other words, that was the covenant made between Christ and the Father. Nothing is said there about humanity being justified.

It does not say anything about JUSTIFICATION!

IT DOES SAY THAT THE LAMB OF GOD WAS SLAIN BEFORE CREATION!

[John317]

Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him (the beast), everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

parenthesis mine.

How does this text show justification?

You're right, Wayfinder. It doesn't have anything to do with justification. It's telling us that Christ and God the Father (and the Holy Spirit) agreed together that Christ would come to this earth as a human being and die and be raised from the grave. God knew well in advance who would be saved, since He knows all things. But that doesn't mean God causes some to be saved and others to be lost.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...You see John317 you would be correct if RIGHTEOUSNESS occurred only at the point of JUSTIFICATION! However, that is not how RIGHTEOUSNESS WORKS!

In the Christian experience RIGHTEOUSNESS occurs many times. God accounts ALL OUR GOOD WORKS to us as RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH! This is the basis of our heavenly rewards!

In fact all our "GOOD WORKS" occur because of our "FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST".

If we do NOT have "FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST" the human would never do good works.

But I have not argued at all that "righteousness" only occurs at the point where people are justified by faith. If you believe I have, please show the quote that made you think so.

You said, "God accounts ALL OUR GOOD WORKS to us as RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH!"

Please show where the Bible clearly teaches this. What verses do you have in mind? I'm trying to understand exactly what you mean. Your words can be understood in different ways.

Genesis chapter fifteen: Life of Abraham!

and

Paul reiterates this in Romans chapter four!

[John317]

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You'll need to base your view on something besides Rev. 13: 8.

That verse legitimately may also be translated:

"... everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered." Christian Standard Bible.

Originally Posted By: miz3

It does not say anything about JUSTIFICATION!

IT DOES SAY THAT THE LAMB OF GOD WAS SLAIN BEFORE CREATION!

And what does it mean to say that the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world?

How do you translate that to mean that all humans are justified before they were born?

Do you realize that this verse legitimately may also be translated:

"... everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered." Christian Standard Bible."

[John317]

You said, "God accounts ALL OUR GOOD WORKS to us as RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH!"

Please show where the Bible clearly teaches this. What verses do you have in mind? I'm trying to understand exactly what you mean. Your words can be understood in different ways.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Genesis chapter fifteen: Life of Abraham!

and

Paul reiterates this in Romans chapter four!

You're going to have to do better than this.

How would you like me to tell you: Romans chapter 8.

Or: Paul reiterates this is Gal. 3.

I suspect that would go over like an iron balloon.

Could you please answer post #467363 ?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

....In Romans chapter four Paul is pointing out that Abraham was accounted RIGHTEOUS BY FAITH and not by OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW! That is what Romans chapter four is about and is not about JUSTIFICATION AT ALL!

JUSTIFICATION comes about in Romans chapter five!

OK, so you understand that Paul teaches in Romans 4 that Abraham was accounted righteous by faith.

"Accounted righteous by faith" is the same as "justified by faith."

Since Abraham was "accounted righteous by faith," or justified by faith, how then can you claim that Abraham was justified before he even existed? Obviously someone who doesn't yet exist cannot have faith.

Also, since you understand that Romans 4 is about Abraham's being accounted righteous by faith, how can you claim that Romans 4 is "not about justification at all"?

Doesn't Galatians 4 teach the same thing as Romans 4 and 5?

Gal. 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Question: Why would Galatians 3: 8 teach that "God would justify the heathen through faith," if the heathen and everyone else were already justified long before they existed?

Since Romans chapter five says that all humans are JUSTIFIED then the people of Galatians chapters three and four are already Justified!

Paul is telling them that because they are beyond this point they do not need to fall back into "old" ways.

Like Abraham of old the Galatians "believed (trusted, had faith) Paul's Words" and it was "accounted to them as RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH"!

Paul points out that the proof of this was the "outpouring of the Holy Spirit" on the Galatians!

Either they believed (had FAITH, TRUSTED) that this was true and it would be accounted to them for RIGHTEOUSNESS or they would be lost because they REJECTED not only what Paul had told them but they would have REJECTED God's free Gift!

The Galatians were in danger of REJECTING God's Gift and REJECTING Paul's message by falling upon meeting the demands of the LAW in order to be saved!

Paul was pointing out that the LAW could not save them!

The ONLY WAY TO BE SAVED WAS THROUGH THE CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST!

John317 you keep trying to use these other texts to show that what Paul wrote in Romans chapter five is wrong! What Paul wrote in Romans chapter five is the GROUND FLOOR OF ALL SALVATION! Everything else is built on that FOUNDATION!

It seems as though you are confused in regard to sequence by the ACT OF GOD and the TELLING TO HUMANS WHAT GOD DID!

When Paul told the Galatians, and/or heathen what God did they believed, had FAITH, put Trust in, the message! They were already JUSTIFIED but now when they had "FAITH IN THE MESSAGE" it was "accounted to them as RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH!

[John317]

Question: Why would Galatians 3: 8 teach that "God would justify the heathen through faith," if the heathen and everyone else were already justified long before they existed?

Originally Posted By: miz3

Since Romans chapter five says that all humans are JUSTIFIED then the people of Galatians chapters three and four are already Justified!

But that's just it, miz3: Romans 5 does not teach anywhere that all humans are justified apart from any choice or faith on their part. What specific verses are you talking about? We need to go back over that verse or those verses and look at each one carefully. You probably are referring to Romans 5: 18-19.

Are there other verses in the Bible that you believe teach that all humanity was justified before they were born?

Paul, of couse, wrote the book of Galatians first. It is one of the earliest books of the NT.

If the Galatians were already justified, why would Paul write to them in about 55 AD and tell them that God will justify the heathen [Galatians] through faith?

Why didn't Paul rather tell them that they were already justified and that everyone was justified, and therefore no one would need any more justifying?

Originally Posted By: miz3

Paul is telling them that because they are beyond this point they do not need to fall back into "old" ways.

You mean since they are already justified by faith, they don't need to try and gain justification by works of the law?

Originally Posted By: miz3

Like Abraham of old the Galatians "believed (trusted, had faith) Paul's Words" and it was "accounted to them as RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH"!

OK. Please hold on here.

What do you mean the Galatians "trusted" Paul's words and this trust of Paul's words was "accounted to them as righteousness by faith"? Is this what you are saying?

Where does Paul ever ask the Galatians to trust his words, and tell them that by trusting his words, they would be accounted as righteous?

Do I understand you aright?

Check out Acts 17: 10-12:

17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.

17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

NOTE: The Bereans received the word that Paul preached and searched the Old Testament Scriptures to see whether Paul's words were in agreement with the Scriptures.

Did Paul find fault with them? Certainly not. Paul never asked people just to take his word for it. A true prophet is going to encourage people to study the Bible and compare their words with the words of the other genuine prophets.