SDA position on the Daily

[duane2064]

question: can you agree that these two verses are talking about the same event the exact same beast? rev 19:20 "And the beast was taken" dan 7:11 "... I beheld till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed , ..." and can you also agree that the beast in 19:20 is the leopard with bear's in rev 13:2?

[BobRyan]

[BobRyan]

question: can you agree that these two verses are talking about the same event the exact same beast? rev 19:20 "And the beast was taken" dan 7:11 "... I beheld till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed , ..." and can you also agree that the beast in 19:20 is the leopard with bear's in rev 13:2?

The beast of Rev 13:2 is a composite of all beasts in Dan 7:1-8 and represents the one that did the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints. The one with that LateranIV statement about exterminating all Jews and heretics.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

It doesn't say that the abomination of desolation is set up in 1798. It is saying that when the "daily," or "continous intercession," is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1290 days...

Until what? Well, what has the writer been talking about? See Daniel 12: 9 where it speaks of "the time of the end." So the 1290 days/years points us to the time of the end, a relatively brief period before Christ's return.

1290 days after 508 AD, then, brings us to 1798. And what happened in 1798? That was the beginning of the time of the end. In other words, it is when the book of Daniel is unsealed. The 1260 days/years points to the same year, 1798.

What do you think?

It is interesting that the 1260 seems to start with the military and civil domination of the Rev 13:2 beast - while the start of the 1290 start date deals with the full maturation of the religious abomination - false doctrine specific to that beast.

in Christ,

Bob

[duane2064]

blesed is he who waiteth and cometh to the 1335. obviously the end of the tribulation is what you would waiteth for. and that would not be 45 years, but 45 days. i am aware that you all like to make everything years, but lets take 2300 for example, the hebrew uses two words there for the kjv translation of "days" so the correct translation of days there is "evening/morning", which you sdas should understand as not meaning a year, but you all insist it is 2300 years. A DAY STARTS WITH THE EVENING, PEOPPLE and for pre-trib rapture, the man of sin must be revealed first, and as i understand it if you pre-trib-rapture-people, are still on earth then that means the tribulation has not begun. the only place i see a possible rapture is the last verse of joel 2, and that is clear that the moon must turn to blood first, so before you get a rapture you must first have the sixth-seal. doesn't sound like pretrib to me. so as i understand it many believe in a pre mid and post, why not a BEFORE & PRE & MID & POST, i mean if there are so many raptures going on why not rapture me right now. and if i can be raptured right now maybe i have already been raptured and i don't even know it. personally i am a messianic pentecostal which of course i accept ellen as a prophet. i accept the kjv for the new testament and the masoretic text for the old testament. unfortunately i thing ellen only used the kjv for the old testament

[duane2064]

The beast of Rev 13:2 is a composite of all beasts in Dan 7:1-8

"#3-leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a #2-bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a #1-lion"

composite agreed. just answere the question, is not the 4th beast thrown in to the lake of fire and isn't the leopard thrown into the lake of fire?

then answere me this question:

why is the last animal we have in daniel 7 a leopard, what i mean is the 4th is not describe as an animal?

so we have lion>bear>leopard>???

what animal is the 4th. because from rev 13:2 it tells us that the 4th is a leopard, NO?

[Gibs]

Bob is on the right track here and this prophecy of Dan 7:1-8 is a parallel of Rev 13:1-10, but to give out the right delination of it is not as been taught in Adventism.

I would lay it out, but it would be a waste of my time and it is easily seen by any, anyway if you are guided by His Spirit and you want to know, He will show you.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[duane2064]

2300 days,

translated by all the sdas as 2300 years

please note the word "days", is not years, in fact the hebrew has two separate words for the one word sdas twist into years, those two separate words are "evening mornings". so since so many times days it is twisted into years by sdas and so many other theologians, there is no true understanding of prophecy, not even close. and for those who say they are getting info from the Holy Spirit, that is tantamount to saying "thus saith the Lord". and before you start running your mouth about what the lord has revealed, you must first get two or three witnesses, then another revelation directly stating when the timing of the info is to be released.

but most people who talk about the holy spirit night and day don't even believe in the gifts of healing, laying on of hand, tongues, etc.

but if everyone is going to just say forget the book and instead say: "Thus Saith The Lord", then what is the point of discussion of the bible.

[phkrause]

It did not originate with the SDA church!!! I believe William Miller for one and a few others before.

[Ted Oplinger]

Joining into the conversation a bit late in the game.

With all the talk about the 1290 and 1335 day prophecies, do they not state they begin with the taking away of the continual burnt offering (or regular sacrifice)? The 1290 years uses that reference to reach the abomination that makes desolate.

Why do we attribute the start to AD 508 (which is regarded as the set-up of the abomination, rather than the taking away of the burnt offering, if I understand correctly), when Jesus took away the burnt offerings by His sacrifice "in the midst of the week" in AD 30, per Daniel 9:27?

Adding 1290 to 30 gets one to AD 1320. Adding 1335 to 30 gets AD 1365.

What happened in those years which are germaine to the prophecy?

I do know of a couple of points that seem to fit the context...however, dating people and events during this time frame is fraught with debate, and I express this as a caveat to the following:

Year 1320 - the year Augustinus de Ancona began a work he finished writing in 1326, called the "Summa Postestate Ecclesiastica", considered by some to be the high water mark of the Papacy's blasphemous claims for supremacy and power.

It can be argued that these claims were indeed an abomination that makes desolate.

It is also the year generally given for the birth of one John Wycliffe.

Year 1365 is the year generally given for Wycliffe's installment at Oxford, where he used that position as the launch pad for the Reformation and the translating of the Bible into English. This put the Bible within reach of the common man in his native language for the first time in nearly 1000 years. The Papal authorities made things so onerous for Oxford that many who originally sided with Wycliffe, turned against him, causing Wycliffe to be expelled from Oxford (with the blessings of the Pope).

However, the fire of the Reformation had started, which would inevitably lead to Martin Luther nailing his 95 thesis to the door of the All Saints Church in Wittenburg, Germany some 150+years later.

The blessing of the Reformation began with Wycliffe.

Again...should not Daniel 12:11, 12 be interpreted such that the beginning point of 1290 must be the taking away of the burnt offering/regular sacrifice, and ending with the setting up of the abomination that makes desolate, no? And attaining 1335 days from the same start point must be a blessing, no?

How then does the AD 508-1798 period qualify? 1798 saw Berthier take the Pope prisoner, destroying the power of the abomination of the Papacy and its claims, rather than establishing it.

Or was the establishment of the United States the "abomination that makes desolate"? (maybe, to the Muslim???)

Just some basic questions here...and food for thought...

Blessings,

[duane2064]

they not state they begin with the taking away of the continual burnt offering (or regular sacrifice)? The 1290 years

i already addressed this above, there is no word for sacrifice in the hebrew and you have no authorization to change days into years. what is your authorization to change the word of God here twice.

[Ted Oplinger]

Duane2064,

Nice adversarial slap with your post. As you treat others, I would fathom to guess that is how you desire to be treated, no?

Pity...I will simply address your issues, rather than slap back.

If you'd care to read my post again, you will find I am questioning the application of the prophecy to the allotted time span of AD 508 to AD 1798. Unfortunately, you cannot even address the question I posed. While off-topic, it appears the thread has wandered far from the original question anyway. Likewise, it would appear my question is posed not to you, but to those using the prophecy in the manner I called question on.

It would appear you are jumping in where you were not asked to.

As for your "concerns", Duane...it is implicit in these long time prophecies that the year-day principle found in Numbers is to be used, since the context of Daniel 12:11,12 is the last days prior to Michael standing up. I take it from your post you are insinuating you do not believe the year-day principle is a valid tool in exploring the meanings of time prophecies, and these in particular. If so, you have no ground for discussing this within conventional Adventist theology, as you are denying a commonly accepted practice to unlock the prophetic meaning.

Again, that alludes to the point my questions above are not meant for you to answer.

As for your contention about the Hebrew...just because the word for "sacrifice" isn't actually penned doesn't mean the word there for "continual" isn't referring to the regular sacrifice...just as the word "daily" used in the title of this thread is referring to the same thing without the word "sacrifice" or "offering" needing to be supplied.

The Hebrew word there is the English "continual", in its adverb form. It is has been accepted by scholars for decades that the adverb usage here (and in Daniel 8:11-13 and Daniel 11:31) has been to refer to the regular or continual sacrifice, as it refers to when used in its adjective form in Exodus 29:42; Numbers 28:6, 10, 15, and 23; Ezra 3:5; Nehemiah 10:34; and in God's instructions for the rebuilt temple in Ezekiel 46:15.

The adverb usage is also used to denote a spiritual responsibility (Aaron continually bearing the names of the tribes of Israel through the breastplate in Exodus 28:29), and in stressing the continual practice of personal devotion and praise to God (numerous references).

In the adverb usage, the "continual" is linked to the 2,300 evening and morning prophecy, which Adventists do correctly interpret to mean the daily sacrifice. That prophecy is inextricably tied to the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27.

These are not my statements, but the compiled counsel of many Hebrew scholars over the decades on the usage of that word. Accept or reject if you like, but I tend to run with many different counselors on issues like these, not the lone rangers. I have yet to see you offer convincing evidence to interpret outside this usage. Perhaps it is previous in the thread (which I have not been able to read fully yet, and you appear to refer to)...perhaps not.

The spiritual connotation of this word in the Old Testament, from my study, always revolves around the worship of God, particularly in the approach He set up using the Sanctuary. It is the worship of God and how He is approached, that figures prominently in all these time prophecies, and the abolish of same criteria is what begins each relevant time period foretold, which I find to be the key principle I see driving these prophecies. That principle is what I alluded to, Duane...I find it rather unfortunate you couldn't - or wouldn't - pick up on that in your haste to shoot me down.

I have yet to see any linkage of historical events which take these time prophecies as literal days and yet completely fulfills every point to the very day (the main flaw of preterism). It has been demonstrated to do so using the year-day symbol to the very year (and in one case, to the very day) for the 2,300 morning/evening, the 70 weeks, the 1260 days (also known as the time, times and half time), the 5 months of Rev. 9:5, and the hour-day-month-year period of Rev. 9:15.

As I said above, the preterist contention to take these times as literal time in the past fails to find consistent fulfill as exactly as God depicts. The futurist contention to put all these prophecies as yet unfulfilled, in every time I have studied their theses, fails in using the criteria established within those prophecies. The futurist must also necessarily change the plan of an unchanging covenant, made by an unchanging God, to make their thesis "work".

Perhaps you just got off on the wrong foot...yet, if your thesis is such you must shoot across the bow at a new poster posing a question bearing upon the current discussion in a thread, that does not bode well for is veracity.

Blessings,

[Lysimachus]

Whether the word "continual" is referring to sacrifice, or not, it does not matter. Even if it is a word that is to be relegated to sacrifices, it would be in reference to "spiritual sacrifices" (1 Peter 2:5).

Thus we see that, the Papacy, in 508, "usurped Christ's High Priestly Ministration" by casting truth to the ground, and polluting the sanctuary by their false doctrines inculcated into the minds of God's people. Superstition blinded their ability to offer up spiritual sacrifices and come before Christ their High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and thereby went before the Papal Priests. Truth was cast to the ground, and the sanctuary (God's spiritual sanctuary on earth that "mirrors" or "reflects" the Heavenly Sanctuary) was polluted. The actual "cleansing of the sanctuary" began in 1844--a cleansing and restoration of truth, by removing error from the minds of the people (the spiritual manifestation of His literal sanctuary in heaven).

The "continual" is referring to the Priestly Ministration of Christ as our High Priest, which is intimately realized through the spiritual offerings and sacrifices that we make before God, as we come before the throne of Grace and enter into heaven's sanctuary by faith (Psalms 77:12; Heb 4:16).

[Lysimachus]

Ted Oplinger,

I am very limited on time, but I would like to encourage you to purchase the most exhaustive exposition on the Daily and 508 A.D. there is. Mr. Heidi Heiks has provided the most advanced research from the Bible and Primary Sources to establish the Daily being in reference to Christ's High Priestly Ministration in the Heavenly Sanctuary (which is intimately connected to "spiritual sacrifices"), and the date 508 A.D.

Since their publication (2008 and 2011), not one single paper has come out refuting Mr. Heidi Heiks.

I introduce to you the following book:

1. AD 508 Source Book (222 pages) [this book is directly related to our subject in this thread] (2011 publication)

2. AD 538 Source Book (323 pages) (2010 publication)

3. AD 1798 1843 Source Book (188 pages) (2010 publication)

4. The "DAILY" Source Book (222 pages) [this book is directly related to our subject in this thread] (2008 publication)

I have read all of them, from cover to cover. Words cannot describe just how THOROUGH these works are.

Here is his website: http://www.TheSourceHH.org

You can learn about Mr. Heidi Heiks here.

And you can actually purchase the books here: http://www.teachservices.com/search.php?search_query=Heidi+Heiks&x=0&y=0

Anyone who is serious about Bible prophecy, and dates, needs to read these books.

A number of Adventist expositors have placed their stamp of approval on these volumes for providing the most advanced and up-to-date material to these subjects.

[Lysimachus]

2300 days,

translated by all the sdas as 2300 years

please note the word "days", is not years, in fact the hebrew has two separate words for the one word sdas twist into years, those two separate words are "evening mornings". so since so many times days it is twisted into years by sdas and so many other theologians, there is no true understanding of prophecy, not even close. and for those who say they are getting info from the Holy Spirit, that is tantamount to saying "thus saith the Lord". and before you start running your mouth about what the lord has revealed, you must first get two or three witnesses, then another revelation directly stating when the timing of the info is to be released.

but most people who talk about the holy spirit night and day don't even believe in the gifts of healing, laying on of hand, tongues, etc.

but if everyone is going to just say forget the book and instead say: "Thus Saith The Lord", then what is the point of discussion of the bible.

The following is actually my own writing, derived from my book I am working on:

Futurists, like Preterists apply the time period of 2300 evenings and mornings in Daniel 8:14 to literal days, or “1150 evening and morning sacrifices” (which ever feels more convenient—as long as it undermines Historicism). A pity to think that both Preterists and Futurists alike adopt this detrimental interpretation of Daniel 8 which originated from the pagan philosopher, Porphyry of Tyre (A.D. 234—c. .305), whose foremost aim was to terminate the advancement of Christianity. In order to try and prove that Daniel was not a prophet, it was Porphyry, according to Jerome and Bishop Thomas Newman, who originated the view that Antiochus was the Little Horn of Daniel 8. Through his pagan attack, He proposed that Daniel was merely a historian, and that he wrote the book of Daniel after the events of Antiochus. Both Futurists and Preterists also deny that the 2300 day period covers more than just the desecrating power of the Little Horn. A close analysis of the Hebrew in Daniel 8 reveals that the 2300 day period encompasses not just the desecrating power of the Little Horn, but also the Ram (Persia), the Goat (Greece), the 4 notable horns (four divisions of Alexander’s empire), AND the Little Horn! With this in mind, it matters not how one wishes to try and make Antiochus fit the Little Horn. The 2300 day period [known as the “mareh”] encompasses the TOTALITY of the vision [chazon] in Daniel 8. This automatically forces the 2300 days to be years, and these 2300 years end in the year 1844.

Also keep in mind that the 70 Jewish scribes who translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek, making the Septuagint, unanimously qualified the “evening-mornings” by using the Greek word “days”—--the term “evening-mornings” was used by Daniel because he was using artistic “sanctuary language” concerning the lamps that burned “always”, or “daily” in the sanctuary (See for example: Exodus 27:20, 21; Leviticus 24:2,3). The Hebrew word for “evening” is EREB, and for “morning”, BOQER. In other words “ereb-boqer”. Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31, all testify that an “evening” (ereb) and a “morning” (boqer) = a day. Dispensationalists have tried to cut this argument down by saying that “evening-morning” represents “evening and morning sacrifices or burnt offerings”, and therefore, since there was a sacrifice or burnt offering in the evening and in the morning, that means we must cut the 2300 in half to 1150 days. Then they try to fit 1150 days into Antiochus IV Epiphanies’ desecration of the Jewish temple. The problem is, according to Maccabees, Antiochus desecrated the temple for exactly 3 years to the day, or 1095 days. Therefore, Antiochus (along with a HOST of other reasons) does not fulfill this prophecy. It’s 55 days off. And finally, ALL temple sacrifices and burnt offerings were NEVER offered from “evening and morning”, but rather “MORNING AND EVENING” (see 1 Chron 16:40; 2 Chron 2:4; 13:11; 31:3; 2 Kings 16:15; and Ezra 3:3) In that order! The fact that Daniel used “evenings and mornings” in Daniel 8:14 is significant, and lends credence to the fact that Daniel meant full days, as a day is from evening to morning, not morning to evening according to Genesis 1. And since 2300 literal days = 6.4 years, and Antiochus only desecrated the temple for 3 years, we have no choice but to apply the 2300 evening-mornings to years, and since the “70 weeks” of Daniel 9:24 are “cut off” from the 2300 years of 8:14, that means the 2300 years end in 1844 if we begin in 457 B.C. I've worked with the math hundreds of times, and it is VERY precise! Not to mention that in Daniel 8, the context demands that the 2300 year period stretch to the “time of the end” [8:17,19]

We believe the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27 begin in 457 B.C. and end in 34 A.D. The “1 week” is from 27 A.D. at the baptism of Christ to 34 A.D. at the stoning of Stephen and the commencing of the proclamation of the gospel to the gentiles. Christ was crucified in 31 A.D., in the “midst” of the week. We believe this is one of multiple reasons why the 70th week cannot be “detached” and thrown into the future. As Adventist Historicists, we reject the Dispensational/Futurist “lunar-calendar reckoning” of 360 days to a year for the 70 weeks. We compute this timing using regular Solar years, or 365 days. After exhaustively weighing all the research and evidence, we do not believe Dispensationalists have any sound basis for using Lunar years. Our rejection of the Lunar reckoning for the 70 weeks is not only based on historical research of the Lunar year usage, but also on sound mathematical principles using astronomical calendar calculations. Later in this dissertation, I will show why both Anderson’s and Hoehner’s Lunar calculations are seriously flawed, and that Solar reckoning is the only possible way to “make the numbers work out”. The 70 weeks are in alignment with the sabbatical cycles, which in-turn is based on Solar years, not Lunar.

To summarize, we believe that the historical and biblical evidence demands the first 69 weeks (483 years) to have commenced at the decree of Artaxerxes’ 7th year in 457 B.C. for Ezra to build and restore Jerusalem (Ezra 7; 9:9, as well as ancient accounts testify to this), not Artaxerxes’ 20th year in 444 or 445 B.C. Counting 483 regular Solar years from this date brings us to 27 A.D. What happened in 27 A.D.? The Messiah, Jesus Christ, was Baptized and anointed by the Holy Spirit (See Luke 3:21,22; 4:18; Acts 10:37,38) . We know that Christ's baptism was in 27 A.D. simply for the fact that Luke 3:1 informs us that His baptism was in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius, and the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius was 27 A.D. That leaves 1 week left. Adding 7 years to 27 A.D. brings us to the year 34 A.D. Christ's ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years, and is reasoned by accounting the number of Passovers that transpired during Christ’s ministry in the gospel accounts. According to Daniel 9:27, "he" (meaning Christ, not Antichrist) would bring an end to the spiritual significance of the sacrificial system by His death on the cross. Christ was "cut off" and crucified in the "midst" of the week in the year 31 A.D. For 3 1/2 more years the disciples continued to preach to the Jews. At the end of the 70 weeks (or 490 years), we finally arrive at the year 34 A.D. when the last prophet was sent to Israel, Stephen. In 34 A.D. is when Stephen was stoned by the Sanhedrin, the leaders of the Jewish nation. This was national Israel's final sin. This was the year that Saul was converted and became Paul. This was the year that Peter received the vision of the net to go preach to the gentiles. This year was also practically about the time Phillip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch. This was the year that the Gospel went out to the Gentiles. This was the year when probation closed for the Jews as a nation (not as individuals). This was the END of the 70th week!! So the 70 weeks prophecy meets an EXACT fulfillment between 457 B.C. and 34 A.D.)

We believe that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27 are intrinsically tied to the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14. (Note: We believe that to reject the multiple textual and contextual links between the time periods mentioned in Daniel 8 and 9 would be to reveal a plain denial of the facts. The explanation of the 70 weeks by the angel Gabriel in Daniel 9 is an “extension” of the explanation of the time element of the vision given in Daniel 8 (since Daniel fainted and became ill, leaving Gabriel unable to finish the explanation of the time element of the vision). The 70 weeks were “cut off”, or “portioned out” of the 2300 years for the Jewish people (Another reason we cannot “detach” the 70th week and throw it into the future). 70 weeks was their probationary time to accomplish all that which is mentioned in Daniel 9:25. Because they failed to do this, the “kingdom” was taken from them and “given” to another nation (the gentiles). Matthew 21:43, 1 Peter 2:9. After the 70 weeks were fulfilled in 34 A.D., there remained another 1810 prophetic days to complete the 2300 day prophecy. This terminated in the year 1844 when Christ literally shifted His ministration from the Holy to the Most Holy Place—commencing the Antitypical day of Atonement, the cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary, and the Pre-Advent Judgment. This was the year Christ went into the wedding ceremony, and this wedding has been going on since 1844 before Christ returns from the wedding to pick ups His bride and take her to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb)

We believe that in prophetic language, especially where symbolism is employed, the day-for-year principle must be sacredly recognized and guarded. This is ABSOLUTELY essential if we are gong to come to correct interpretations of eschatology and avoid theological shipwreck. We base this principle on Ezekiel 4:5,6, Numbers 14:34, and at least 80 other Biblical day-for-year parallels found in the sacred writings. To name a few prophetic time periods, we dogmatically recognize the 42 months of Revelation 13 as “months of years”, the 2300 evening-mornings of Daniel 8 as “days of years”, the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 as “weeks of years”, the 10 days of persecution on Smyrna in Revelation 10 as “days of years”, and the 3 ½ days of Revelation 11 as “days of years”. We believe the prophetic events that transpired meet these specified time periods with exact precision, and are not “spiritualized” away. We wholeheartedly submit that Dispensationalism’s refusal to adopt the day-for-year principle in their eschatological reckoning lies at the heart in spelling out their faulty conclusions of end-time Bible prophecy.

[duane2064]

the 4 notable horns (four divisions of Alexander’s empire),

[hch]

This is not really that hard to understand when the book of Daniel and Revelation are truly understood.

But since there are about 33 pages written on it I won't try to solve this mystery tonight.

[duane2064]

This is not really that hard to understand when the book of Daniel and Revelation are truly understood. But since there are about 33 pages written on it I won't try to solve this mystery tonight.

well the sdas thought they had it figured out in 1844, and found out they were wrong, or no, they were not wrong, they just miscalculated, or the "sanctuary" refered to in daniel is a heavenly sanctuary, ... blaa ... blaa ... blaa

* * *

its not a place at all , it is translated there "righteousness"

* * *

[debbym]

i believe the sanctuary has parallel meanings,

Christ is our place of safety, our sanctuary and our righteousness.

Jesus described his body as a temple, and we are temples built up in Christ as a place where the Holy Spirit lives. and there is a place in Heaven, also a temple where the throne of God is.

the outer court of the heavenly temple happens to still be this earth, where Christ was the lamb on the alter of sacrifice. so earth and heaven are both real places with real connections

and we are on earth and Christ is in heaven, but we are deeply connected through the Spirit that lives in us.

just because there parallels exist doesn't mean there can be no real place.

Jesus said i go prepare a place for you. There is a real place.

The sanctuary service in every aspect and the work of the priests have Christological meaning. Christ was our lamb, then our priest, and now he is our High priest, and he will end that role and become our deliverer from this world, and the third coming he will be vindicator, then restorer in the recreation.

What will Christ be through out eternity? head of the human race, carrying the marks from the wounds made as he earned that position forever, and he will be from eternity God.

the temple will still be there, but it will be the place where the work for the salvation of man began and was finished and it will be placed on the earth. . Heaven will be established on earth. The earth did become the footstool of the throne of God, now i think the throne will eventually be placed on earth, in the city.

[Twilight II]

i believe the sanctuary has parallel meanings,

Christ is our place of safety, our sanctuary and our righteousness.

Jesus described his body as a temple, and we are temples built up in Christ as a place where the Holy Spirit lives. and there is a place in Heaven, also a temple where the throne of God is.

the outer court of the heavenly temple happens to still be this earth, where Christ was the lamb on the alter of sacrifice. so earth and heaven are both real places with real connections

and we are on earth and Christ is in heaven, but we are deeply connected through the Spirit that lives in us.

just because there parallels exist doesn't mean there can be no real place.

Jesus said i go prepare a place for you. There is a real place.

The sanctuary service in every aspect and the work of the priests have Christological meaning. Christ was our lamb, then our priest, and now he is our High priest, and he will end that role and become our deliverer from this world, and the third coming he will be vindicator, then restorer in the recreation.

What will Christ be through out eternity? head of the human race, carrying the marks from the wounds made as he earned that position forever, and he will be from eternity God.

the temple will still be there, but it will be the place where the work for the salvation of man began and was finished and it will be placed on the earth. . Heaven will be established on earth. The earth did become the footstool of the throne of God, now i think the throne will eventually be placed on earth, in the city.

I agree with this.

[Gail]

well the sdas thought they had it figured out in 1844, and found out they were wrong, or no, they were not wrong, they just miscalculated, or the "sanctuary" refered to in daniel is a heavenly sanctuary, ... blaa ... blaa ... blaa

Uh... there weren't any SDAs in 1844. There were a group of people from various Christian denominations who believed in the imminence of the Second Coming.

You really don't need to be so rude, do you?

[Lysimachus]

the 4 notable horns (four divisions of Alexander’s empire),

[JoeMo]

Quote:

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. (Rev. 17:12-16)

My contribution here is not as scholarly as all of yours; but it is an issue for me. Notice verse 16 above. The 10 horns/kings appear to all be alive at the same time when they ravage the whore. Someone has already posted about how Daniel says repeatedly that the visions are about the time of the end ; and I have a hard time believing that the time of the end started in Daniels's time or in 508 AD. Also, the verses SDA's use to justify the "day-for-a-year" principle (Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-7) have to do with judgement, not prophecy (or at least it seems that way to me); and the principle is explicitly spelled out. Not so in Daniel or Revelation. If this principle applies to prophecy, how come 1260 days=1260 years in one part of Revelation, and the 1,000 year millenium= 1,000 years in another part? How can you tell the difference?

I do not totally dismiss 1844 or the day-for-year principle. But, taking my understanding of the issues I raised above, it makes more rational sense to me that the 1260/1290/1335 day prophecies are all fulfilled in the future as literal days. Just my opinion - but I ain't no theologion or rocket surgeon.

[Gibs]

The time of the vision to start was right on 1844 to the consumation. 1844 was the beginning time of the vision.

The Daily is Christ's ministration in the Most Holy place as of yet, but is soon to be taken away by reason of transgression. He is ministering the daily in our behalf yet, soon He will stand up and say it is finished!

Da 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Da 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

I could go on but is not accepted SDA theology and I don't care to do the battle I'd have to fully explain it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Just a question - this thread is 30 pages of mostly scholarly stuff - parsing Hebrew words in great detail and spouting things that are over the head of a dummy like me. Is understanding of the Daily, 1844, and the 2,300 days a salvational issue? Does a Christian need to learn ancient Hebrew and Greek to understand the scriptures in their original languages in order to be saved? If so, I'll literally be "toast" at the Second Coming.