Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 ...So if Daniel 12 is in the FUTURE, beyond 1844, for OUR time, where does the 1290-1335 fit? What do we do with the numbers? They can't be "years" they would have to be "days" if they are placed AFTER 1844. The following is taken from the book Daniel The Seer of Babylon by Gerhard Pfandl: Quote: In recent years some SDAs have begun to apply the time periods of Daniel 12: 5-13 to the future. Rejecting the traditional Adventist understandng that places the three and a half times, the 1290 and 1335 days, as prophetic periods of the past, they claim that we should understand these time periods as literal days still to come. According to one interpretation, the 1335 days begin with the national Sunday law (NSL) in America, and the three and a half times or 1260 days and the 1290 days with the universal Sunday law (USL). Pfandl's book gives a very good analysis of these interpretations and show the weaknesses of their positions. See pages 110-114. In Kenneth Cox's book, Daniel A Closer Look at the book that tells what will happen in the end times, page 155, he gives a chart which shows that 1260 literal days extend from the National Sunday Law until the close of human probation. See Daniel 12: 7. Another writer understands the 1260 days to extend to thge deliverance of God's people (v. 1) and the Special Resurrection (v. 2). (The End-Time Secrets of Daniel, Franklin S. Fowler, Jr., MD.) Kenneth Cox's book shows that 1290 days reach from the National Sunday Law until the death decree. That means there would be 30 days between the end of human probation until the death decree. See Daniel 12: 11. According to this interpreation, there will be 1335 days from the National Sunday Law until Christ's Second Coming. That is, there will be 45 days between the death decree and the return of Christ. See Daniel 12: 12. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I find it interesting that everything in both the Books of Daniel and of Revelation revolve around the SDA Church. Doesn't that seem kind of funny to you especially since the SDA Church name is not mentioned at all? Quote
ClubV12 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 Whoa, theres a book? I gotta get the book. John you mentioned two books, one was "Daniel the Seer of Babylon" and the other is a critique of that book, "Daniel a closer look". Is that right? I'll do the google and see if I can find them. John can you give us a Cliff Notes of why we need the 1290-1335 placed within the 2,300 based on either of these books? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 First, let me say that I'm not claiming that these books and materials contain no errors or that they teach only the truth. They are merely examples of what some SDAs are teaching about these prophetic periods of time. You might try endtimeissues.com Found this: http://www.endtimeissues.com/Articles/Ar...iel%208.19.html Franklin S. Fowler is a member of my local church and lives only a few miles from me. He held a very interesting seminar at our church. He has put together another very good book called Sequence of Earth's Final Events, A Spirit of Prophecy Study. It gives the sequence of last day events according to both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy. A very thorough study and a good source. I will give you more information tomorrow by PM, as to how to reach him or get his books if you like. I'm not actually sure if these books are still available, though. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 I find it interesting that everything in both the Books of Daniel and of Revelation revolve around the SDA Church. It may appear this way to you, but it is not true. Everything really revolves around Jesus Christ and the messages that He is trying to communciate to the whole world. Many things happened in those books long before the SDA church came on the world scene. The books are not about the SDA church per se but about particular messages and about particular events. The events we're looking at, such as the Sunday law, the close of probation,the Seven Last Plagues, the Second Coming, etc., should not be confused with the SDA Church. Both the messages and the events will actually involve the entire world. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 John can you give us a Cliff Notes of why we need the 1290-1335 placed within the 2,300 based on either of these books? I will see what I can do about that tomorrow, Wednesday. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 John you mentioned two books, one was "Daniel the Seer of Babylon" and the other is a critique of that book, "Daniel a closer look". Is that right? I'll do the google and see if I can find them. You should be able to get these books either at the ABC or online. Both books are outstanding sources. Kenneth Cox of course is one of our very best evangelists, and his book is beautifully illustrated. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 Doesn't that seem kind of funny to you especially since the SDA Church name is not mentioned at all? No. What would be funny is if the SDA Church was named in the Bible. Or any other church. Anyone can give any name to a church. For instance, just because someone calls a church "The Church of God" doesn't mean it is really the church of God. However, the Bible does something much better than give a name; it gives identifying marks that can't be counterfeited. That's the same with Jesus Christ. He also is not named in the Old Testament Scriptures, but they give us certain identifying marks of the true Messiah that Satan couldn't counterfeit. So the name of the church is not what's important. What's important are the identifying marks of the church that God raises up at the time of the end to do a certain work. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Doesn't that seem kind of funny to you especially since the SDA Church name is not mentioned at all? No. What would be funny is if the SDA Church was named in the Bible. Or any other church. Anyone can give any name to a church. For instance, just because someone calls their church "The Church of God" doesn't mean it is really the church of God. However, the Bible does something better than give a name; it gives identifying marks that can't be counterfeited. That's the same with Jesus Christ. He is also not named in the Old Testament Scriptures, but they give us certain identifying marks of the true Messiah that Satan couldn't counterfeit. So the name of the church is not what's important. What's important are the identifying marks of the church that God raises up at the time of the end to do a certain work. What would be those "identifying marks"? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 What would be those "identifying marks"? This is taking us into a different subject, and I want to keep this discussion on topic. If you want to discuss the identifying marks, there are already threads where they are discussed. Briefly, they are found Rev. 12, 13, 14, and 19. I'm sure you've seen them before: 1) Comes on the world scene shortly after the sea-beast receives its mortal wound and the earth-beast rises up. (The papal system was losing its power in 1798 at the same time that the United States was rising up.) 2) Will keep the commandments of God, which includes the Sabbath. 3) Will keep the faith of Jesus. 4) Will have the testimony of Jesus, which is the Spirit of prophecy. 5) Will be a world-wide movement. 6) Will proclaim the Three Angels Messages found in Rev. 14: 6-12. If you want to go into details of these marks of identity, please do it on a separate discussion. As I said, there are several already started. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight II Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I also would like to keep this on topic, I am interested to see where this is going. Please miz3, try to listen along without taking it off tangent. You can start a thread anytime on any sub-topic. It is much easier for everyone if you do that. Quote
12tribes Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 "DAILY" "Tamid". In Numbers 28,29 alone this word is used 17 times in reference to the "continual". service in the sanctuary. It is the same word-translated "daily" in Daniel 8. Hebrews 9:6 (6) Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. Hebrews 7:24-25 (24) But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. (25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
ClubV12 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 We await Johns analysis with baited breath.... Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Who is "we"? :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 Ha HA, OK, "some of us". Here's the most fundamental problem with this concept of a "future" time frame for the 1290 and the 1335. If we know when it begins, you could calculate to the DAY, or very close to the day, when Christ returns. Does anyone else find that troubling? Sky, feel free to jump in here and give us your thoughts on the matter. Quote
Lysimachus Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 First, let me say that I'm not claiming that these books and materials contain no errors or that they teach only the truth. They are merely examples of what some SDAs are teaching about these prophetic periods of time. You might try endtimeissues.com Found this: http://www.endtimeissues.com/Articles/Ar...iel%208.19.html Franklin S. Fowler is a member of my local church and lives only a few miles from me. He held a very interesting seminar at our church. He has put together another very good book called Sequence of Earth's Final Events, A Spirit of Prophecy Study. It gives the sequence of last day events according to both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy. A very thorough study and a good source. I will give you more information tomorrow by PM, as to how to reach him or get his books if you like. I'm not actually sure if these books are still available, though. Franklin S. Fowler comes to our local church quite often. He has relatives here, and I've been to a few of his seminars. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 "DAILY" "Tamid". In Numbers 28,29 alone this word is used 17 times in reference to the "continual". service in the sanctuary. It is the same word-translated "daily" in Daniel 8. Thank you, 12tribes, for that information. It is also used in relation to the "bread of the Presence" (Ex. 25: 30; Numbers 4:7), lamps (Exodus 27: 20; Lev. 24:2), incense (Exodus 30:8), and fire upon the alter (Lev. 6:13). It's never used with reference to an activity performed in the most holy place. Check out a wonderful chapter on this topic, "The Significance of the Cultic Language In Daniel 8: 9-14," by Angel M. Rodriguez, in Vol. 2 of the Daniel & Revelation Committee Series. Symposium On Daniel, Chapter 10, pages 532-537. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 Franklin S. Fowler comes to our local church quite often. He has relatives here, and I've been to a few of his seminars. How long ago was his last visit there? And do you remember if he made those two books available at the seminars? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight II Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Interesting that the "continual" or "daily" will be taken away when Christ stands up... Any thoughts? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 If we know when it begins, you could calculate to the DAY, or very close to the day, when Christ returns. Does anyone else find that troubling? Yes, I do. It would also mean that people will know when the end of human probation takes place. Ellen White wrote: Quote: When probation ends, it will come suddenly, unexpectedly--at a time when we are least expecting it. But we can have a clean record in heaven today, and know that God accepts us; and finally, if faithful, we shall be gathered into the kingdom of heaven. {The Faith I Live By, 215} There also seems to be a contradiction here because Ellen White says that near the end, God will declare the day and the hour of Jesus' coming, and deliver the everlasting covenant to His people. Why would God need to declare the day of Christ's coming at this time if God's people will already know it? See GC 640: par. 2. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 Interesting that the "continual" or "daily" will be taken away when Christ stands up... Any thoughts? You make an important point. Christ's "continual intercession" ends with the end of human probation, a short time before He returns for His people. His "standing up" refers to His ceasing to be High Priest and His coming as Judge and King of Kings. Quote: When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. {GC 613.2} When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 Daniel 12, future or past? If it's future, then we have the problem of potentially setting a date. If it's past, then we run the risk of ignoring the information that clearly seems applicable to the very last generation. Problem #1: May not be a problem if we had more understanding of what Sister White meant in regards to "time setting". That counsel may well have been a referrence to those who were still setting a date for the 2nd coming: Following the great disappointment. Daniel 12 itself sets no date. Problem #2: Daniel 12 verse 1 and 2 sure looks to me like it's talking to THIS generation. Not a generation that ended in 1844. Sister Whites counsel on the need to study Daniel 12 is pretty strong. If it ended in 1844, whats the big deal? I sure wish some more bible scholars would weigh in on this issue. Is the lack of that indicative that the whole issue is a "tempest in a tea pot" and not worthy of consideration? I don't have a position either way on any of this, the daily (which the brethren were perfectly united on before 1844), or Daniel 12 being future or past, OR, a dual application of Daniel 12. Whatever side you lean toward doesn't mean your altogether wrong! Pull up those tent stakes and immovable positions and consider the options. Quote
Twilight II Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I suspect there is some dual application going on here. Somehow linked with the intercession stopping. Quote
Twilight II Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 If the end of Daniel 12 is referring to the time after Christ stands up, then that would give those who know when that has happened a clue to how long they have to wait. I think this is the point you are making isn't it cv? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 Problem #2: Daniel 12 verse 1 and 2 sure looks to me like it's talking to THIS generation. Not a generation that ended in 1844. Sister Whites counsel on the need to study Daniel 12 is pretty strong. If it ended in 1844, whats the big deal? Yes, Daniel 12: 1-3 is talking to this generation; that is, to the last generation of believers who will be alive at the time Christ "stands up." Those verses have not yet been fulfilled. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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