SDA position on the Daily

[John317]

Have you seen Eugene Prewitt's book, Deeper, Investigating the Integrity of Our Prophetic Foundations?

It's a the ABC. I bring it up becasue Chapter Ten is entitled, "The 1290-and-1335-Day Prophecies." Pages 129 to 138. I haven't finished reading this chapter, but the book as a whole is terrific.

If you like, after I read these books, I will summarize their aguments.

[John317]

Eugene Prewitt is on FB if you're interested in contacting him about his book.

[12tribes]

Quote:

"In 508 Clovis received at Tours the insignia of the consulship from the eastern emperor Anastasius." Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th ed., art. "Clovis," Vol. VI, p. 563.

Historians who give only brief treatment to this war generally focus on the year 507, during which Alaric was killed. Yet, as the above references correctly indicate, the Franks continued their conquest of Visigothic territory until well into the year 508. The conclusion of the war, and the imperial recognition of it, occurred in the year 508.

"Nor was his a temporary conquest. The kingdom of the West Goths and the Burgundians had become the kingdom of the Franks. The invaders had at length arrived, who were to remain. It was decided that the Franks, and not the Goths, were to direct the future destinies of Gaul and Germany, and that the Catholic faith, and not Arianism, was to be the religion of these great realms." Richard W. Church, The Beginning of the Middle Ages, pp. 38, 39.

508-1798=1290

508-1843=1335

[Twilight II]

Quote:

"In 508 Clovis received at Tours the insignia of the consulship from the eastern emperor Anastasius." Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th ed., art. "Clovis," Vol. VI, p. 563.

Historians who give only brief treatment to this war generally focus on the year 507, during which Alaric was killed. Yet, as the above references correctly indicate, the Franks continued their conquest of Visigothic territory until well into the year 508. The conclusion of the war, and the imperial recognition of it, occurred in the year 508.

"Nor was his a temporary conquest. The kingdom of the West Goths and the Burgundians had become the kingdom of the Franks. The invaders had at length arrived, who were to remain. It was decided that the Franks, and not the Goths, were to direct the future destinies of Gaul and Germany, and that the Catholic faith, and not Arianism, was to be the religion of these great realms." Richard W. Church, The Beginning of the Middle Ages, pp. 38, 39.

508-1798=1290

508-1843=1335

I was just wondering where AD508 came from as a starting point.

This information is appreciated.

Mark :-)

[ClubV12]

What I learned from chasing this down was:

When folks call into question our foundational pillars, not deny them, just call them into question, like maybe we didn't interpret thing quite right, BIG RED FLAG. It's OK to ask questions, inspect truth closely, but watch for the warning signs to offer clues while your doing that.

In this case, the foundation piller called into question was the 1335, past of future? Sister Whites quote that it was completed was called into question, suggesting she didn't mean it exactly the way some read it. It was being misinterpreted. How many times have we heard that about a bible verse?

If Sister White was wrong, then perhaps William Miller was wrong, HE had the 1335 on HIS chart as well. All the early pioneers place the 1335 in the past as well. But they didn't have the light we have, it was said, this is "new light" they couldn't have known about. I think we WILL get "new light" from unexpected sources, BUT, it will be entirely consistent with "old light".

Back to the DAILY:

"Old Light",,, that brings us back to the DAILY. In 1844 the pioneers were in perfect harmony on the meaning of the daily, as per Sister White. In the chaos AFTER 1844 divisions began, again, as per Sister White. The old view was eventually abandoned, the new view accepted, Sister White is non-commital on either side.

The BIG RED WARNING FLAG on the daily is that we are calling into question the "perfect harmony" of the pioneers on this subject. Maybe, they didn't understand it as well as we do today. Maybe,,, but that big red warning flag is still there. We are better bible scholars today? I wouldn't want to bet my life on that, I will not readily dismiss the pioneer view while I carefully consider the modern view.

[ClubV12]

"...the messengers of God should be perfectly united in their views of Bible truth and should consult with each other and should not advance any new view until they first went to the messengers and examined those views with the Bible, and if they were correct let all the messengers spread them and if they were error lay them to one side. Then the gospel seed would be sown in union and raised in strength; all the messengers east and west, north and south, would be telling the same story. . . ." {1BIO 221.3}

White, A. L. (1985; 2002). Ellen G. White: The Early Years, 1827-1862 (Vol. 1); Ellen G. White Biography, Volume 1; The Early Years (221).

Question:

If we can't verify the truth, new light, new ideas, through the "counsel of the brethren" and reach a united view, perhaps we should lay it aside until such time as we can? No doubt this is why the GC, the Adventist church, does not have an "official" position on the daily.

[John317]

"... The kingdom of the West Goths and the Burgundians had become the kingdom of the Franks. The invaders had at length arrived, who were to remain. It was decided that the Franks, and not the Goths, were to direct the future destinies of Gaul and Germany, and that the Catholic faith, and not Arianism, was to be the religion of these great realms." Richard W. Church, The Beginning of the Middle Ages, pp. 38, 39.

508-1798=1290

508-1843=1335

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I was just wondering where AD508 came from as a starting point.

508 was the year in which the papacy became a civil power, the beginning of its existence as a state. It was then that the papal power mounted the dragon which it's portrayed as riding in Rev. 17.

[Twilight II]

The pioneers went through a massive upheavel in many of their understandings.

They were wrong about lots of things and had to change their views.

Historicism is not credible by itself, it needs scriptural support...

The bible should not be weighed by a "historical" position, but should be weighed by the bible.

[Twilight II]

I have seen this movement arising calling itself "Historic Adventism" and I am not sure that a rabid clinging onto the past is quite "right"...

Sister White counselled us against not advancing into new light, but insisting on standing on the old ground...

Genuine "new light" is always "old light" found.

[John317]

That's one reason it's so essential for every generation of Seventh-day Adventists to study these things for themselves and know what they believe and why they believe them. We need to know for ourselves if something is true or not, and if it is not, it needs to be rejected. Every individual has to make up his own mind. It's no good believing something simply because someone else does. These things require personal conviction based on personal, prayerful study and investigation.

[Twilight II]

"...the messengers of God should be perfectly united in their views of Bible truth and should consult with each other and should not advance any new view until they first went to the messengers and examined those views with the Bible, and if they were correct let all the messengers spread them and if they were error lay them to one side. Then the gospel seed would be sown in union and raised in strength; all the messengers east and west, north and south, would be telling the same story. . . ." {1BIO 221.3}

White, A. L. (1985; 2002). Ellen G. White: The Early Years, 1827-1862 (Vol. 1); Ellen G. White Biography, Volume 1; The Early Years (221).

Question:

If we can't verify the truth, new light, new ideas, through the "counsel of the brethren" and reach a united view, perhaps we should lay it aside until such time as we can? No doubt this is why the GC, the Adventist church, does not have an "official" position on the daily.

Remember, this is a principle, not a Law.

Jones and Waggoner shared righteousness by faith against much resistance...

[Twilight II]

508 was the year in which the papacy became a civil power, the beginning of its existence as a state. It was then that the papal power mounted the dragon which it's portrayed as riding in Rev. 17.

I thought that was 538?

[John317]

Yes, but the foundational pillars of our faith will never be moved. Yet we know there will be many in the church who want to move them. The Investigative Judgment and the sanctuary in heaven is one that she specifically mentioned which will be the target of change toward the end. Of course we've already seen the beginning of this attempted change.

[ClubV12]

Agreed, NOT a hard and fast "law", just a "warning flag", a principle, not to be taken lightly. The "warning flag" was my very first clue, something didn't "feel right" about this 1335 future thing. And, perhaps there is STILL some truth I've over looked on this issue. Awaiting new light on the new light...

Now in Jones and Wagonners case, it's fundamentally different for one MAJOR reason. They had the backing of a prophet who said the truth they presented was the same truth she had been presenting for 50 years! The difference was, Jone/Wagonner were able to present it in clear, defined terms that the people could easily understand.

Even Sister White herself was reluctant to take a position that would put her in conflict with the brethren! Sometimes, you gotta do, what you gotta do.

[Twilight II]

But we don't have a living prophet CV, so what does that mean for us? :-)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

508 was the year in which the papacy became a civil power, the beginning of its existence as a state. It was then that the papal power mounted the dragon which it's portrayed as riding in Rev. 17.

I thought that was 538?

538 AD is when the the papacy was able to rule as "corrector of hereticks" in the Western church. Those are two different aspects of the little horn power. One is civil, the other religious. Both are important prophetic specifications of the little-horn power.

[Twilight II]

Yes, but the foundational pillars of our faith will never be moved. Yet we know there will be many in the church who want to move them. The Investigative Judgment and the sanctuary in heaven is one that she specifically mentioned which will be the target of change toward the end. Of course we've already seen the beginning of this attempted change.

But sometimes people want to make their views the foundational pillars even when they are not.

Think:

Veganism

Dress reform

Nature of Christ...

That is why my bible is the sole test of "truth".

Everything gets weighed against that.

I am not into this "historicist" stuff because they try to make out that their views have to be accepted as the "foundational pillars".

[ClubV12]

538 to 1798 is where we get the IMMOVABLE 1,260 years. That has to remain as a "pillar" of the 2,300. Where as, the 1290 or even the 1335 could be debated, but you would loose the argument in my opinion.

Veganism

Dress reform

Nature of Christ

I've never met anyone, or heard of anyone making those a "test" of any kind. Some folks feel pretty strongly about it, and they have a case for that to some degree.

[Twilight II]

You should have seen my friends face (devout vegan), when I suggested that God gave meat as emergency food...

I could just see those "historical pillars" being shored up in his mind. :-)

(To be fair - he is not the type to push his views on another).

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I thought that was 538?

538 AD is when the the papacy was able to rule as "corrector of hereticks" in the Western church. Those are two different aspects of the little horn power. One is civil, the other religious. Both are important prophetic specifications of the little-horn power.

But the Papacy was already a religious power before 538 John317?

[ClubV12]

"I suggested that God gave meat as emergency food..."

Sister White would 100% agree with that! Time and place have to be considered.

[Twilight II]

538 to 1798 is where we get the IMMOVABLE 1,260 years. That has to remain as a "pillar" of the 2,300. Where as, the 1290 or even the 1335 could be debated, but you would loose the argument in my opinion.

Veganism

Dress reform

Nature of Christ

I've never met anyone, or heard of anyone making those a "test" of any kind. Some folks feel pretty strongly about it, and they have a case for that to some degree.

Oh I have met folks that make a test on all these points...

[Twilight II]

"I suggested that God gave meat as emergency food..."

Sister White would 100% agree with that! Time and place have to be considered.

But for those that think that veganism is the centre of the gospel message, to suggest such a thing is a serious attack on their paradigm.

They see it as woolly liberalism attacking THE health message...

[John317]

Here's a very important statement by Ellen White regarding the topic under consideration:

Quote:

There have been one and another who in studying their Bibles thought they discovered great light, and new theories, but these have not been correct. The Scripture is all true, but by misapplying the Scripture men arrive at wrong conclusions. We are engaged in a mighty conflict, and it will become more close and determined, as we near the final struggle. We have a sleepless adversary, and he is constantly at work upon human minds that have not had a personal experience in the teachings of the people of God for the past fifty years. Some will take the truth applicable to their time, and place it in the future. Events in the train of prophecy that had their fulfillment away in the past are made future, and thus by these theories the faith of some is undermined. {2SM 102.2}

From the light that the Lord has been pleased to give me, you are in danger of doing the same work, presenting before others truths which have had their place and done their specific work for the time, in the history of the faith

103

of the people of God. You recognize these facts in Bible history as true, but apply them to the future. They have their force still in their proper place, in the chain of events that have made us as a people what we are today, and as such, they are to be presented to those who are in the darkness of error. The true workers of Jesus Christ are to cooperate with their brethren who have had an experience in the work from the very rise of the third angel's message. These followed on step by step, receiving light and truth as they advanced, bearing one test after another, lifting the cross that lay directly in their pathway, and pressing on to know the Lord, whose goings forth are prepared as the morning. You and other of our brethren must accept the truth as God has given it to His students of prophecy, as they have been led by genuine, living experience, advancing point by point, tested, proved, and tried, until the truth is to them a reality. From their voices and pens the truth in bright, warm rays has gone to all parts of the world, and that which was to them testing truth, as brought by the Lord's delegated messengers, is testing truth to all to whom this message is proclaimed. {2SM 102.3}

[ClubV12]

I've heard rumors they exist, never met any. There are LOTS of unbalanced folks out there. Some that totally reject dress reform (unbalanced) some that make to much of it (unbalanced). The devil don't care what side of the street your in the ditch up to your neck in mudd you lay.

...gotta go dig a ditch for the new water line, not looking forward to it. :)