ClubV12 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 ... my head hurts ... I haven't gotten a thing done around the house the last two days trying to work this out. Quote
Administrators Gail Posted August 31, 2011 Administrators Posted August 31, 2011 ... my head hurts ... I haven't gotten a thing done around the house the last two days trying to work this out. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 If the end of Daniel 12 is referring to the time after Christ stands up, then that would give those who know when that has happened a clue to how long they have to wait. Yes, some believe that Christ stands up 1,260 days after the National Sunday Law (Abomination of Desolation). Of course Christ's "standing up" and the close of probation occur at the same time. According to the same view, Christ will come 75 days after the close of probation, or a total of 1,335 days after the National Sunday Law. See page 155 of Kenneth Cox's book, Daniel. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 Take it easy, man! Go take care of business and by the time you get back, maybe it will all be worked out. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Lysimachus Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Yes, some believe that Christ stands up 1,260 days after the National Sunday Law (Abomination of Desolation). Of course Christ's "standing up" and the close of probation occur at the same time. According to the same view, Christ will come 75 days after the close of probation, or a total of 1,335 days after the National Sunday Law. See page 155 of Kenneth Cox's book, Daniel. I remember reading that book. I have a couple of them. My dad and I talked to Kenneth Cox about it a bit at the GC Session last year, and we asked him what he does about this view setting a time for Christ's return (at the end of the 1335), and it SEEMS that he said he did not believe Christ would come at the end of the 1335, but that there would be a "blessing". He said this view does not pin-point a date for the Second Advent. I'm still a bit confused as to exactly how he sees it, even after reading his book on Daniel. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 Thanks for that. I have never talked to him about his views, so I'm only going by what it says in his book. I would like to know more about the "blessing" he speaks of. It appears to me Kenneth Cox is talking about Daniel 12: 12, which says, "Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days." I'm open to the evidence regarding the prophetic times in Daniel 12, but I actually haven't made up my mind about the "new views." At this point I have to admit I'm skeptical. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I have never read Kenneth Cox's book but for a long time I have been aware of this postion. I believe it was yesterday that I posted the following in the Jacob's 45 Day thread. Club, one thing I can say is that these people, most if not all, take the National Sunday Law as their point of reference and from there they make their calculations. Accordingly the loud cry would last three and a half literal years. Therefore not only could they know when the loud cry would end but they would also know when probation would end, three and a half years after the Sunday Law had been passed. There are 30 days between the 1260 days and the 1290 days and there are 45 days between the 1290 days and the 1335 days. The 1260, 1290, and 1335 all having the same point of reference, the setting up of the image of the beast by the enactment of the Sunday Law. What happens during the 30 days following the close of probation to fulfil the 1290 days? The close of probation is the starting point for the time of Jacob's trouble and also for the great time of truble for the wicked. How did they come up with 45 days being the time of Jacob's trouble after the 30 days following the close of probation? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 Sky says, "How did they come up with 45 days being the time of Jacob's trouble after the 30 days following the close of probation?" Got me, thats one of many questions that make my head hurt! ...I think I'll take a break and go slap some more mudd on the dry wall. Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Might as well! :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 John, did not Kenneth Cox, some years ago, deny the teachings of The Great Controversy in an interview, on TV, after some zealous souls had put up a bill-board denouncing the Catholic church? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Lysimachus Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 John, did not Kenneth Cox, some years ago, deny the teachings of The Great Controversy in an interview, on TV, after some zealous souls had put up a bill-board denouncing the Catholic church? sky Hmmm...that doesn't sound like Kenneth. He seems to be an adamant defender of Sister White's writings. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 I would be shocked to learn that he did, sky. Perhaps he was disagreeing with the billboard itself. I don't really know because I have never read or seen the interview. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 How did they come up with 45 days being the time of Jacob's trouble after the 30 days following the close of probation? It's apparently the difference between the 1290 days and the 1335 days. So the time of Jacob's Trouble is between the death decree and Christ's second coming (or the blessing). Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 I agree, Lysimachus. I think someone may have misunderstood what Kenneth Cox said. But I would need to see exactly what he said before I can say for certain what happened in the interview. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I listened to the interview but it was too many years ago. I don't remember the details. I wish I could listen to it again. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted August 31, 2011 Moderators Posted August 31, 2011 John can you give us a Cliff Notes of why we need the 1290-1335 placed within the 2,300 based on either of these books? Could you please explain your question a bit so I make sure I answer it right? You seem to be asking what those books by Dr. Fowler, Kenneth Cox, and Gerhard Pfandl say about the need of the 1,290 & 1,335 days being fulfilled during the 2,300 days. Are you including the 1,260 days? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight II Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II If the end of Daniel 12 is referring to the time after Christ stands up, then that would give those who know when that has happened a clue to how long they have to wait. Yes, some believe that Christ stands up 1,260 days after the National Sunday Law (Abomination of Desolation). Of course Christ's "standing up" and the close of probation occur at the same time. According to the same view, Christ will come 75 days after the close of probation, or a total of 1,335 days after the National Sunday Law. See page 155 of Kenneth Cox's book, Daniel. I had never heard of this before John317. :-) Quote
ClubV12 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 Something about the bill board declaring the Pope to be the beast. Something about Cox denying that. My take on it: Cox was saying the Pope represents the beast power. The bill board was rather crude, like an Enquirer headline, sensational. ...just an opinion from what little I've gathered on the subject. Quote
ClubV12 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 Cliff Notes on the 1260, 1290 and 1335. After giving it some thought, I'm not sure thats possible. There seems to be only TWO camps, both fierce in their support on their position. In the past group. In the future group. NEITHER group seems willing to entertain a "dual application" (but I could be wrong on that), which is the only hope of a solution as I see it. The 1260 has to be in the past, I don't see any way around that, gotta be in the past. The 1290 and the 1335 didn't "have to be" in the past, but evidence tends to support the fact that they were. Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion, at this point, for me, is a dual application, which nobody SEEMS to like. Short of a dual application I'd have to rule for the "in the past" group. Thats where I currently stand, subject to further light on the matter.... This "Judge" awaits the verdict from the jury. Looks like somebody named Marion Berry (NOT the Washington DC mayor) brought this up to the GC some years ago and caused a big riff over the whole deal. Among the supporters for the "future" group APPEAR to be some fairly radical types, that is of some concern to me. I DON'T want to be spreading rumors, thats just all I've figured out at this point. Quote
Lysimachus Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 I have Marion Berry's book on the "Daily", and watched some of her videos and read some of her articles on her website. Interesting stuff, but I feel as though she neglected the historical positions too much and made it as though the 7 trumpets and 1260/1290/1335 of Daniel 12 are only future. I would have been far more impressed had she emphasized the great importance of the historical applications first before arguing for a secondary application. These views worry me, because it's like putting one foot in the door toward futurism. And once people take an inch, they want to go a mile. We are in danger of forgetting our historicist pillars. Heidi Heiks gently makes minced meat of a lot of Marion Berry's theories, even though he doesn't even mention her once by name. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Lysimachus Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 I'm headed to Florida guys, see yas! Hold the fort while I'm gone!! :D Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 Be careful and come back safe. Hope that is real soon. We'll keep the light on for ya, Lysimachus. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Posted September 1, 2011 The path or error will lay so close to the path of truth, at some point, we will not be able to discern which is which. I don't think that time is upon us right now, but certainly, coming soon. Right now, we can pray, study, seek guidance and the truth may not be immediately apparent, but it will be revealed to the honest in heart. When we DO see the path of truth we will begin to recognize just how far from the path of error it is. But, again, at some point, our only hope will be the Holy Spirit to discern the truth, great biblical knowledge will simply not be enough. "It is not enough to have an intellectual knowledge of the truth. This alone cannot give the light and understanding essential to salvation. There must be an entrance of the word into the heart. It must be set home by the power of the Holy Spirit. The will must be brought into harmony with its requirements. Not only the intellect but the heart and conscience must concur in the acceptance of the truth. {RH, September 25, 1883 par. 7} Quote
ClubV12 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Posted September 1, 2011 Clubs "Cliff Notes" on the "1335 Futurists". Been studying this Marion Berry lady, as she seems to be the "ring leader". Apparently, by her calculations, the 1335 day time period ends with the Sunday law death decree announcement. There is a waiting period before the law actually becomes legally enforcable (like all laws). On the day the decree is set to become law, at midnight, is when the day and hour of Jesus' return is announced from heaven. So there is still a waiting period of time before the 2nd coming. Thus, there is no specific "time setting" involved for the 2nd coming. By the way, from the time the death decree is announced until the time it becomes law (at midnight) is calculated at 15 days. Not sure how she got that though. I've seen some rebuttals of her work, but frankly, they haven't been "that good", not 100% convincing. I've seen enough of HER work to come to the same conclusion, not 100% convincing. The jury is still out... All the numbers hinge on the Sunday law, some the National law, some the World wide law that follows (I think) in 60 days. With no "dual application" I still have to blow this whole thing off. I'm "pretty well" convinced the 1260, 1290 and 1335 were already fulfilled. Particularly the SOP quote about the young man Sister White corrected by telling him the 1335 (and numerous other errors) were in the past. "1335 Futurists" (as I now call them) say that quote is misunderstood, I don't think so, I think it's very plain and simple. The 1335 was in the past, done, stick a fork in it. No dual application? We got us a false prophet I'm thinking... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 (quoting): ...."It is not enough to have an intellectual knowledge of the truth. This alone cannot give the light and understanding essential to salvation. There must be an entrance of the word into the heart. It must be set home by the power of the Holy Spirit. The will must be brought into harmony with its requirements. Not only the intellect but the heart and conscience must concur in the acceptance of the truth. {RH, September 25, 1883 par. 7} Great and apropos quote, Club. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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