Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 Quote: 538 AD is when the the papacy was able to rule as "corrector of hereticks" in the Western church. Those are two different aspects of the little horn power. One is civil, the other religious. Both are important prophetic specifications of the little-horn power. But the Papacy was already a religious power before 538 John317? Sure, but until 538 AD. the papacy was not able to rule as "corrector of hereticks" in the Western Church as Justinian planned in 533 AD. Justinian first had to remove the Ostrogoths, which he ordered his general to do. 538 AD is the year, then, that the Ostrogoths were forced to withdraw from Rome. From that point on, they were never a serious threat to the power of the papacy to rule in the churches. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 Yes, but the foundational pillars of our faith will never be moved. Yet we know there will be many in the church who want to move them. The Investigative Judgment and the sanctuary in heaven is one that she specifically mentioned which will be the target of change toward the end. Of course we've already seen the beginning of this attempted change. Originally Posted By: TwilightII But sometimes people want to make their views the foundational pillars even when they are not. God's prophet designated the foundational pillars of our faith. It isn't a list that we can simply add to if we want. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Guest justified70X7 Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 The daily was the sacrifice in the tabernacle. How difficult is that?? Adventists can't see biblical truth when they have committed to tradition... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 The devil don't care what side of the street your in the ditch up to your neck in mudd you lay. Boy, isn't that the truth! The Devil has something attractive for everyone. He doesn't care how we fall, just so we fall. That's how he sees it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 The "daily" was much more than the sacrifice. In the Bible the same word, TAMID, is used in reference to a good number of things having to do with the sanctuary service, not merely the animal sacrifices. In Daniel 8, TAMID is used as a noun, without an adjective. It is best translated as "continuity". So it is something that is continuous. What is "continuous"? The intercession of Christ. So we're really talking about the continuous intercesssion of Jesus Christ for sinners, which is symbolized by the sanctuary service. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Posted September 1, 2011 The daily (continuous, always) has been debated for hundreds of years by many bible scholars, Adventists are a bit late to the party, but we joined the argument, already in progress! Adventist have no set position, bible scholars from all faiths continue to debate it. Looks like justified70X7 has it worked it though. Welcome to the party. The word "sacrafice" was never in the original biblical text, the interpreters put that word in, "adding to" the "word". Quote
miz3 Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 Fascinating to watch SDA struggle with their own pillars. Round and round and not actually saying anything. Just talk. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 The 1290-and-1335-day prophecies are not pillars. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 Fascinating to watch SDA struggle with their own pillars. Round and round and not actually saying anything. Just talk. Miz3 ____________________________ Its not necessarily mere talk. True, some are struggling with truth and error. There is nothing new under the sun. Even the very disciples of Jesus did not know their right from their left spiritually until Pentecost. Personally I find nothing complicated about the daily. Before Christ began His ministry in the sanctuary above the priests of the earthly sanctuary continued their daily rounds in the first apartment every year and the high priest at the end of each year entered the most holy to make the final atonement. When Christ died upon the cross the daily, as far as the earthly priesthood was concerned came to an end. When He ascended up on High He began to minister in the first apartment of the sanctuary above daily pleading the merits of His shed blood before the Father in behalf of sinners. This is "the daily" that was throdden down underfoot by the little horn, that is, by the papacy establishing her own priesthood on the earth. For centuries the ministry of Christ was lost sight of. Darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the people. After the little horn received her deadly wound in 1798 the light regarding the sanctuary in Heaven shone upon those who were searching for the truth and this led to the rise of the Advent Movement. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Twilight II Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Yes, but the foundational pillars of our faith will never be moved. Yet we know there will be many in the church who want to move them. The Investigative Judgment and the sanctuary in heaven is one that she specifically mentioned which will be the target of change toward the end. Of course we've already seen the beginning of this attempted change. Originally Posted By: TwilightII But sometimes people want to make their views the foundational pillars even when they are not. God's prophet designated the foundational pillars of our faith. It isn't a list that we can simply add to if we want. She did? :-) Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 God's prophet designated the foundational pillars of our faith. It isn't a list that we can simply add to if we want. Originally Posted By: Twilight II She did? :-) Sure. Do you know what they are? I've posted this information a number of times before but would be glad to repeat myself if you want me to. There are about 9. (in no certain order) The visible, literal return of Christ The 7th day Sabbath 1844 and the heavenly sanctuary The non-immortality of the wicked The Third Angels' Message The State of the Dead Creation Perpetuity of the law of God Baptism and Lord's Supper Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight II Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: John3:17 God's prophet designated the foundational pillars of our faith. It isn't a list that we can simply add to if we want. Originally Posted By: Twilight II She did? :-) Sure. Do you know what they are? I've posted this information a number of times before but would be glad to repeat myself if you want me to. There are about 9. (in no certain order) The visible, literal return of Christ The 7th day Sabbath 1844 and the heavenly sanctuary The non-immortality of the wicked The Third Angels' Message The State of the Dead Creation Perpetuity of the law of God Baptism and Lord's Supper They are all self evident... But question time... Does the sanctioning of these truths make them pillars because of the SOP? Or are they pillars because of the sanctioning of the bible? What if there are truths that were not bought out during the ministry of Ellen White, can they also become "pillars"? Quote
Twilight II Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 My point is this, the bible sanctions those "pillars". Anyone rejecting those, is hardly going to accept them on the basis of Ellen Whites testimony, surely...? Quote
ClubV12 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Posted September 1, 2011 Pillars based solely on the bible, confirmed by the prophet. Like Hiram Edson was, I believe, the very first to promote the IJ and HE brougt it to the attention of the Whites, who later confirmed it. Joseph Bates brought the Sabbath to their attention. God works through a variety of men and sources to reveal truth. In those early days Sister White was not alone in receiving divine revelations. Hiram himself had such concerning the IJ. Loughborough had a dream that he recounted to Sister White, who confirmed it was of divine origin. Never the less, every doctrine Adventists have is bible based. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 Pillars based solely on the bible, confirmed by the prophet. Like Hiram Edson was, I believe, the very first to promote the IJ and HE brougt it to the attention of the Whites, who later confirmed it. Surely the bible is sufficient to sanction the truths? I am not sure that Ellen White ever meant her writings to be used as a sanctioning device. Besides, I have seen more misuse of the SOP by Adventists than I have of the bible. The bible is the standard of our doctrine and it contains its own authority, it does not need "sanctioning", even with the SOP. I get concerned when we step away from this simple ideology... Quote
ClubV12 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Posted September 1, 2011 I don't!!! The Lord provided extaordinary means and methods to establish a last days people to proclaim the message. He even gave us the name to use, that just happens to be Seventh-day Adventist. Thank God He gave us a messenger to help find and stay on the straight and narrow. What happened in 1844 was a HUGE, MASSIVE (bilbically speaking) event. MANY, besides Miller, calculated it out, they KNEW something was going to happen around that time. None knew what, hence the great disappointment. It took divine intervention and revelation to keep this "new people" on the correct path. Enter Hiram Edson and his "vision". Some groups had some of the truth, others with a different amount of truth. Some groups stopped with what they were given, Seventh day Baptists for example, and Jehovah Witness to some degree! Other groups, due in large part to Sister Whites guidance, continued to search the SCRIPTURES and confirm step by step the chain of truth. They accepted "new light", agreed on it and moved on to the next step. In time, like 1863, this group that KEPT accepting new light became Seventh-day Adventists. Just a bunch of folks from this and that church coming together with a sincere desire to STUDY for themselves to find truth. It was much the same in Luthers time, the reformation. Some groups continued to grow and accept new truth, others went stagnant. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 I don't know if you've studied what took place at the Sabbath Bible Conferences of 1849-1851 and what Ellen White said about them. Ellen White's visions were instrumental in establishing the "pillars." God gave her visions that helped the brethren to know whether they had the right interpretation or whether they should continue studying. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 The visible, literal return of Christ The 7th day Sabbath 1844 and the heavenly sanctuary The non-immortality of the wicked The Third Angels' Message The State of the Dead Creation Perpetuity of the law of God Baptism and Lord's Supper Originally Posted By: TwilightII They are all self evident... I think it's a mistake to consider them "all self-evident." They are certainly not to many SDAs, particularly 1844 and the heavenly sanctuary, creation, and the Third Angels Messages. Originally Posted By: TwilightII Does the sanctioning of these truths make them pillars because of the SOP? Or are they pillars because of the sanctioning of the bible? The sanctioning of these truth certainly doesn't make them true. Truth is truth no matter who sanctions or believes it. But for SDAs who know Ellen White and her prophetic ministry, it certainly makes a big difference to know she referred to them as foundational pillars of our faith and said that not a peg of those pillars is to be moved. If they weren't founded squarely on the Bible, they couldn't be "pillars." However, there are millions of people who don't think they are founded squarely on the Bible, and many of them will debate with you till the cows come home over the truth or falsity of those teachings. If it didn't matter whether Ellen White called them "foundational pillars of the faith," she would haven't told us they are pillars of our faith. She only told us what God revealed to her that she should tell us. Originally Posted By: TwilightII What if there are truths that were not bought out during the ministry of Ellen White, can they also become "pillars"? No. They can't be the Foundational Pillars of our faith. They can be true doctrines and they can be FB, but they can't become "Foundational Pillars of our faith." Those are matters of history and matters that were defined as such by God's prophet. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 I knew SDA Doctrine was based on EGW. Ellen White decides what the Pillars are. Interesting how the Bible does not dictate what they are. Quote
ClubV12 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Posted September 1, 2011 There is a difference in confirming someones findings and finding it for them. It was intense bible study, confirmed along the way, step by step. Comparing scripture to scripture, not one man, a group of men, the counsel of the brethren. Quote
miz3 Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 The use of Ellen White by the SDA Church has always been THE SANCTIONING DEVICE. To the truly "orthodox" SDA Ellen White is read and studied more than the Bible is. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 I knew SDA Doctrine was based on EGW. Ellen White decides what the Pillars are. Interesting how the Bible does not dictate what they are. But it is not true that SDA doctrines are based on EGW. You don't appear to understand what is being said here. The Bible does determine what our doctrines are, and it determines what our Fundamental Beliefs are. When I talk about Ellen White deciding what the Pillars are, I am saying she is the one who called them by that name and told us that none of those Pillars should be moved. But if they weren't in the Bible in the first place, they surely wouldn't be Pillars. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 1, 2011 Moderators Posted September 1, 2011 Very true. Important to keep it in mind, too. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 I knew SDA Doctrine was based on EGW. Ellen White decides what the Pillars are. Interesting how the Bible does not dictate what they are. But it is not true that SDA doctrines are based on EGW. You don't appear to understand what is being said here. The Bible does determine what our doctrines are, and it determines what our Fundamental Beliefs are. When I talk about Ellen White decided what the Pillars are, I am saying she is the one who called them by that name and told us that none of those Pillars should be moved. If they weren't in the Bible, they wouldn't be Pillars. No the Bible does not determine what our Doctrines are. Our SDA doctrines were hammered out by "men" but "confirmed" by Ellen White. That is not the Bible and the Bible ONLY. That is in fact what "they (the pioneers) thought the Bible said and Ellen White sanctioned what they said was correct. There is a huge difference between that process and the process of Bible and Bible only. We can play word games but that does not change the Truth. Ellen White's sanctions are the KEY ELEMENT in what we believe to be the "pillars" that are unchangeable. To me that means no matter what the Bible actually says we are to be bound and gagged by SOP sanctions. I have great difficulty with this process because it in effect places Ellen White ABOVE the Bible. Quote
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