WHAT IS TH E GREATEST THREAT TO SDA CHURCH?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

IMHO, the greatest threat to the SDA church is not listening to words of warning if they happen to step on the toes of cherished ideas. (No, I'm not going to list the "ideas"...I did that once and I'm still bloodied from the bricks thrown at me..)

Be wary of things that "sound" good, "feel" good, and that offer power to self, that offer the means to righteous-appearing ends...but have demonic roots if one traces the history. Let me say this about demonic roots: things springing from such roots are not good fruit. It appears harmless, even desirable, but rest assured, nothing good comes from Satan. He is so tricky.. I read things in the forum here sometimes and wish I could scream into the computer for people to WAKE UP!! Wouldn't do any good, though.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Your contributions to this discussion are most welcome.

Please participate.

I found a few moments here with internet access where I'm staying, and I'd love to contribute, but you will have to wait if you wish me to participate to the point of contributing my full opinion on this matter.

Whenever you are ready. I will wait patiently for your contribution.

Thank you.

[wayfinder]

The greatest threat to the SDA church is The Almighty. I say this because of this statement to them for this present time.

Revelation 3:1"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

Revelation 16:15 NAS

("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")

Revelation 3:17'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.19'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

The greatest threat to Israel was their King/Messiah; because when He came they did not recognize Him and He left them their house, desolate.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Folks I am truly interested in what you think about this! I am not looking for an argument in this case.

And I hope everyone takes part, particularly SDAs, since this has to do with the SDA church.

Thank you John317.

Please participate.

Any questions I will ask should not be interpreted as being argumentative or trying to pick an argument. I am merely looking for as much data as I can muster and to get that data clearly understood in my mind and to make sure that I understand exactly what you are trying to say.

So please participate. I promise that will not tell anyone who participates that they are wrong or etc.

Again, the more that participate the better.

[miz3]

IMHO, the greatest threat to the SDA church is not listening to words of warning if they happen to step on the toes of cherished ideas. (No, I'm not going to list the "ideas"...I did that once and I'm still bloodied from the bricks thrown at me..)

Be wary of things that "sound" good, "feel" good, and that offer power to self, that offer the means to righteous-appearing ends...but have demonic roots if one traces the history. Let me say this about demonic roots: things springing from such roots are not good fruit. It appears harmless, even desirable, but rest assured, nothing good comes from Satan. He is so tricky.. I read things in the forum here sometimes and wish I could scream into the computer for people to WAKE UP!! Wouldn't do any good, though.

Rudywoofs, I am genuinely interested in your ideas on this. If you do not feel comfortable listing those "cherished ideas" here in public would mind sending me a PM and listing them privately to me. I promise not to throw real bricks at you.

Your opinions are important to me. Thanks.

[Sonny]

What is the greatest threat to the SDA Church today (being we are in the last days)?

Self-righteousness

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: miz3

What is the greatest threat to the SDA Church today (being we are in the last days)?

Self-righteousness

"Self-righteousness is not the wedding garment. A failure to follow the clear light of truth is our fearful danger. The message to the Laodicean church reveals our condition as a people." [RH 12-15-04]

[Sonny]

if we individually try to throw out all the weeds, we will also throw out a lot of the wheat

[Ron Amnsn]

What is the greatest threat to the SDA Church today (being we are in the last days)?

He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. (Mar 7:9)

In the beginning the founders of the SDA Church studied scripture. They discarded some man-made traditions and accepted some of God's commandments. But they didn't accept all of God's commandments.

SDA's have clung to the tradition that draws a distinction between the Ten Words (traditionally referred to as the Ten Commandments) and the rest of the commandments of God. Today, we have become experts at setting aside any of the commandments of God that do not agree with our traditions.

[ClubV12]

To the ANGEL of the Laodecian church. Some say the "angel" of the church represents the leadership, the messengers.

If so, it's the leaders who have a problem, us members are OK, we got everything we need,,,, uh,,,, wait,,, err

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

What is the greatest threat to the SDA Church today (being we are in the last days)?

He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. (Mar 7:9)

In the beginning the founders of the SDA Church studied scripture. They discarded some man-made traditions and accepted some of God's commandments. But they didn't accept all of God's commandments.

SDA's have clung to the tradition that draws a distinction between the Ten Words (traditionally referred to as the Ten Commandments) and the rest of the commandments of God. Today, we have become experts at setting aside any of the commandments of God that do not agree with our traditions.

Could you specify which commandments SDA have set aside for their tradition? Thank you.

[wayfinder]

There is a tradition in christianity, concerning salvation, that we are saved by faith through grace and not by works of the law (so no one can boast). This tradition of christianity was adopted by the SDA church and is widely practiced today. The words of God, as recorded by Moses the bond-servant of God, shows that God was well aware of this deception to come upon His people in that day and in the future.

Matthew 7:23 NAS

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

All who take the Law (Ten Commandments) out of the salvation equation, practice lawlessness.

Galatians 2:16 NAS

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:10 NAS

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM

Galatians 5:1-6 NAS

1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law ; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

John 14:15 NAS

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments

Deuteronomy 13:1 "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known ) and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 "You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. 5 "But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.

[Guest]

Wayfinder, what you continue to get wrong is that:

The Bible is clear that yes, we will be judged by our works, or deeds, no doubt about it. But we will NOT be saved by them. That is a different matter altogether.

[Stan]

miz3

What do you think the greatest threat it?

[Pastor Marion]

The institution of the Church itself; the idea that we will win souls for Christ by getting people to come to a church service. People need friends, they need to feel heard; they can attend a church and it's activities for 50 years and still not have experienced being 'heard.' The Missional church model is what I believe in. Also to have church leaders who dare to learn what it is that they don't know that they don't know about all the deep hurts of life so that Church, whether Missional or an existing institution, can be a place of refuge for all. May God help us as our church leaders continue to inadvertently perpetuate Secondary Trauma to thousands of seeking and hurting souls.

[miz3]

miz3

What do you think the greatest threat is?

I would be lying if I said I don't have ideas. However, in answer to my own question, I am not sure what the right answer is.

Besides, I am only interested in finding out what others think about this question. I don't want to put in my "two cents" worth and then degenerate into an argument.

My sole purpose in this case is to "listen and learn".

[Haldog]

The Internet with it's many resources which make it so easy to check sources and realize how much untruth the people in the church believe.

[John317]

There is a tradition in christianity, concerning salvation, that we are saved by faith through grace and not by works of the law (so no one can boast). This tradition of christianity was adopted by the SDA church and is widely practiced today.

That is not "tradition," but the Word of God. Those are two different things.

What does it mean to say that we are saved by God's grace through faith?

Do you plan on being saved by works of the law?

Is there any difference between works of the law and works of faith?

What kind of works did Jesus do-- works of the law or works of faith?

[John317]

Haldog, the Internet is no threat to the SDA church. Actually, the more truth one knows the better the SDA church looks.

[John317]

...Could you specify which commandments SDA have set aside for their tradition? Thank you.

I believe you'll find that Ron is of the conviction that God wants us to obey all the laws of the Old Testament and not merely the moral law. I don't think he sees any distinction between them.

So far as I know-- and please correct me if I am wrong, Ron-- he believes that the sacrifical system still continues, even though no one sacrifices animals because the temple was destroyed. He doesn't think that the death of Christ did away with the necessity of sacrifices and offerings.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...Could you specify which commandments SDA have set aside for their tradition? Thank you.

I believe you'll find that Ron is of the conviction that God wants us to obey all the laws of the Old Testament and not merely the moral law. I don't think he sees any distinction between them.

So far as I know-- and please correct me if I am wrong, Ron-- he believes that the sacrifical system still continues, even though no one sacrifices animals because the temple was destroyed. He doesn't think that the death of Christ did away with the necessity of sacrifices and offerings.

Thank you John317 for that clarification. I was not aware that is what Rom meant. Now I know.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

There is a tradition in christianity, concerning salvation, that we are saved by faith through grace and not by works of the law (so no one can boast). This tradition of christianity was adopted by the SDA church and is widely practiced today.

That is not "tradition," but the Word of God. Those are two different things.

What does it mean to say that we are saved by God's grace through faith?

Do you plan on being saved by works of the law?

Is there any difference between works of the law and works of faith?

What kind of works did Jesus do-- works of the law or works of faith?

John,

When you speak of the 'Word of God' you mean the 'Bible', which is itself a 'tradition of the church'. Therefore, the Bible and Tradition are one in the same. We have talked about this many times before, so I won't rehash these arguments here. But I will give you my perspective in answer to your questions.

What does it mean to say that we are saved by God's grace through faith? I though you were the expert at this, so this should require no direct answer; except that the answer is part of the 'tradition' of the church which Paul invented (that was not originated by Jesus Christ).

Do you plan on being saved by works of the law? The only possible way to have any chance to be saved is to be INSIDE the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3,5). But just because you are Inside the Kingdom does not mean you will be saved (Matt 25:1-13). Once inside the Kingdom you must be obedient to the Covenant of the Kingdom, and that Covenant is the 10 Commandments (Deut.4:13). This proves that you love Jesus, the King of the Kingdom of the Heavens (John 14:15). Since we are all judged according to our 'works' (Rev. 22:12) and our works are obedience to the will and commands of Jesus then, yes, under those conditions we are either lost or saved by our works.

Is there any difference between works of the law and works of faith?

The works of 'faith' can be anything you want them to be, including but not limited to giving $ to the church, helping your neighbor, healing the sick, and doing charitable work of all kinds. These are all wonderful things, and an important part of expressing your love for God. But there will be many who have done these marvelous things that will be lost because about those people Jesus will say ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ (Matt. 25:12). That is because they did not do the works of the LAW which I described above.

[color:#000099]What kind of works did Jesus do-- works of the law or works of faith? Jesus did both in fullness. The basis for the service of Jesus was Matt.5:17-18 and Matt. 19:19:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.   (18) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

"Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

It is my opinion that Jesus was also meant to capitalize the words Father and Mother, meaning His own Father (God) and His Mother, the Holy Spirit (Rev.12). This could be a subject for another time.

[BobRyan]

What is the greatest threat to the SDA Church today (being we are in the last days)?

The greatest threat the idea of setting aside, discounting, re-inventing the Bible.

This is sometimes manifest in believe in evolutionism over the bible.

In other cases it manifests itself in choosing the traditions of man over the Bible.

It can surface as "higher criticism" of the Bible - which in essence is "higher criticism of God" as Peter points out in 2Peter 1:20-21.

Lose the Bible - and you lose everything.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Haldog, the Internet is no threat to the SDA church. Actually, the more truth one knows the better the SDA church looks.

hence all the free SDA material on the net - put there by SDAs themselves.

in Christ,

Bob

[aldona]

Quote:

Both God and the Devil bring people into the SDA church

If this is the case, then shouldn't we (as a denomination) be less boastful about numbers, and much more circumspect about "playing the numbers game"? I have heard of pastors subjected to "quotas" and pressured to baptise a certain number of people per year or face unpleasant consequences from those "above" them.

What troubles me, though, about this way of thinking is that it can foster suspicion and distrust of new members. Did God really bring this person into the church through baptism and a saving relationship with Christ? Or is he/she a Jesuit plant which has been put here to cause trouble? (yes, I have heard these very things said about newish church members who did not yet have a full grasp of the finer points of our doctrines and did not always live up to our lifestyle like a 3rd or 4th generation member would have.)

I can see where you are coming from, though, and I agree it would be better to have one genuine convert who has had a life-changing experience of true faith in God, than a hundred who were pressured and harrassed into baptism because that was what their parents wanted or the pastor had the "heavies" at the Conference Office breathing down his neck demanding to know why there had not been any baptisms in the last couple of quarters.

AJ