WHAT IS TH E GREATEST THREAT TO SDA CHURCH?

[olger]

A great threat to the church is wolves in sheep's clothing within. Soon the shaking will reveal the truth about people.

It's time for the remnant to return,

`og

[Gordon1]

It's time for the remnant to return

Olger, that sounds like "Come back inside my people!"

[John317]

It is ironic that you would quote one of the most vocal anti-Trinitarians the SDA church has produced...

...In answer to how and what Christ emptied Himself of.

...That may have been missed by most here but it didn't slip by me.

Alonzo T Jones

He [Christ] who was born in the form of God took the form of man." In the flesh he was all the while AS God, but he did not appear as God." "He divested himself of the form of God, and in its stead took the form and fashion of man" "The glories of the form of God, he for awhile relinquished." (A. T. Jones, General Conference Bulletin, March 4th 1895, The Third Angels Message; No. 23)

It is true that A.T. was non-Trinitarian for a good many years, but by the time of his death he was not. That is a well-known fact.

SDAs know that most of the leaders in the 1800s and even into the early 20th century were either non-Trinitiarian or anti-Trinitarian. That is not at issue here. The subjuct here is, "What is the greatest threat to the SDA Church?"

A.T. Jones' teachings on the Trinity pose no threat to the SDA church.

[skyblue888]

[ClubV12]

What IS this "Straight Testimony" that causes the shaking?

Do we have an idea or a clue or do we know exactly what this is in reference to? This "straight testimony".

Oh, and the real problem within the church and for ALL of Gods professed people where ever they may be is, "conversion". If your not truly converted, you WILL fall for SOME false theory sometime. Gaurenteed, and you won't even know it happened, you will go on thinking your doing the Lords work and your really working for the devil!

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

It's time for the remnant to return

Olger, that sounds like "Come back inside my people!"

Thanks !

[olger]

Remnant to Rise?

Remnant to Run?

Remnant to Retreat?

Help....

[John317]

What IS this "Straight Testimony" that causes the shaking?

Do we have an idea or a clue or do we know exactly what this is in reference to? This "straight testimony".

Here are some clues:

Quote:

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people. {CET 176.1}

I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it, and be purified. {CET 176.2}

Let those who are teachers and leaders in our cause take their stand firmly on Bible ground in regard to health reform, and give a straight testimony to those who believe we are living in the last days of this earth's history. A line of distinction must be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve themselves.

God will not be trifled with. It is in the time of conflict that the true colors should be flung to the breeze. It is then that the standard-bearers need to be firm and let their true position be known. It is then that the skill of every true soldier for the right is tested. Shirkers can never wear the laurels of victory. Those who are true and loyal will not conceal the fact, but will put heart and might into the work, and venture their all in the struggle, let the battle turn as it will. God is a sin-hating God. And those who encourage the sinner, saying, It is well with thee, God will curse. {3T 272.1}

Confessions of sin made at the right time to relieve the people of God will be accepted of Him. But there are those among us who will make confessions, as did Achan, too late to save themselves. God may prove them and give them another trial, for the sake of evidencing to His people that they will not endure one test, one proving of God. They are not in harmony with right. They despise the straight testimony that reaches the heart, and would rejoice to see everyone silenced who gives reproof.

God is leading out a people and establishing them upon the one great platform of faith, the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus. He has given His people a straight chain of Bible truth, clear and connected. This truth is of heavenly origin and has been searched for as for hidden treasure. It has been dug out through careful searching of the Scriptures and through much prayer. {3T 447.1}

The facts relative to Korah and his company, who rebelled against Moses and Aaron, and against Jehovah, are recorded for a warning to God's people, especially those who live upon the earth near the close of time. Satan has led persons to imitate the example of Korah, Dathan and Abiram, in raising insurrection among the people of God. Those who permit themselves to rise in opposition to the plain testimony, become self-deceived, and have really thought that those upon whom God laid the burden of His work were exalted above the people of God, and that their counsels and reproofs were uncalled for. They have risen in opposition to the plain testimony which God would have them bear in rebuking the wrongs among God's people. The testimonies borne against hurtful indulgences, as tea, coffee, snuff, and tobacco, have irritated a certain class, because it would destroy their idols. Many for a while were undecided whether to make an entire sacrifice of all these hurtful things, or reject the plain testimonies borne, and yield to the clamors of appetite. They occupied an unsettled position. There was a conflict between their convictions of truth and their self-indulgences. Their state of indecision made them weak, and with many, appetite prevailed. Their sense of sacred things was perverted by the use of these slow poisons; and they at length fully decided, let the consequence be what it might, they would not deny self. This fearful decision at once raised a wall of separation between them and those who were cleansing themselves, as God has commanded, from all filthiness of the flesh, and of the spirit, and were perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. The straight testimonies borne were in their way, and caused them great uneasiness, and they found relief in warring against them, and striving to make themselves and others believe that they were untrue. They said the people were all right, but it was the reproving testimonies which made the trouble. And when the rebellious unfurl their banner, all the disaffected rally around the standard, and all the spiritually defective, the lame, the halt, and the blind, unite their influence to scatter and sow discord. {TSDF 149.10}

[miz3]

I continue to read every word of comment and every word of quote.

This is very fascinating and educational to me. Thank you.

Please continue.

[Gustave]

It is true that A.T. was non-Trinitarian for a good many years, but by the time of his death he was not. That is a well-known fact.

[Gustave]

How on earth, did you, from this statement, derive the idea that Jones did not believe in the triune God when it says nothing about the trinity or the Godhead? It is simply stating that before He took the form of a man He was in the form of God (Phil.2:5) with the glories of the form of God upon Him.

While on earth the glories of the form of God He for a while relinquished but the form of God He relinquished forever.

He is now sitting at the right hand of the Majesty on High with the glories of the form of God upon His human form. He never ceased to be God. Rom.9:5.

sky

As for Jones being the most vocal anti-trinitarians the church has ever produced, that to me is the most farfetched idea I have ever heard.

"In the flesh he was all the while AS God"

That statement right there is 100% unreconcilable with the Doctrine of the Trinity...

...I'm fairly certain even John317 will tell you that.

[ClubV12]

Thanks John for that post on the straight testimony.

I'm struggling and praying that the Lord will help me to express the wonderful things I'm reading in the Testimonies in a "delicate" way so as not to offend. Basically, I'm just sharing my own testimony about the changes they have brought to my life and what a blessing that has been.

Never the less, I've been told by THREE people this week that I'm making to much of Sister White and her writings. One person noted that many had grown up in the church, they already "read all that stuff" in school.

OoooKkkkk then,,,, It was recommended I talk more about "love" (always a good thing) and less about "doctrine". I thought that a bit odd, because I see the doctrine AS love in action! How can you separate the two?

Prayer meeting tonight was based on several different "good books", highly recommended. As I listened I thought, this whole thing is based on Testimonies Volume 9, I could teach this entire class with that one book. Probably get shoes thrown at me and bore folks to tears, but I COULD!! :)

[John317]

Never the less, I've been told by THREE people this week that I'm making to much of Sister White and her writings. One person noted that many had grown up in the church, they already "read all that stuff" in school.

OoooKkkkk then,,,, It was recommended I talk more about "love" (always a good thing) and less about "doctrine". I thought that a bit odd, because I see the doctrine AS love in action! How can you separate the two?

I pray and hope you don't fall for that old trick, Club. That's the way people hope to avoid the straight testimony.

Actually the Testimonies For the Church are an essential part of the Straight Testimony. They are the Testimony of Christ.

We should, of course, be loving and thoughtful in the way we talk to people about the Testimonies, but God wouldn't be please for SDAs to be silent about the prophet He sent to us. WE know who wants us to be silent about them.

[John317]

...Prayer meeting tonight was based on several different "good books", highly recommended. As I listened I thought, this whole thing is based on Testimonies Volume 9, I could teach this entire class with that one book. Probably get shoes thrown at me and bore folks to tears, but I COULD!!

Talk about sad! I doubt that would be the response at my local church, but I know it is in many.

Sounds like the congregation where God wants you to stay, Club.

Have you talked to the pastor or the elders about these things?

[ClubV12]

I've talked to our new assistant Pastor "team" I guess you could call them. Technically "she" is the official Pastor but her husband holds equal esteem withint the church. And most often "they" will preach when they have the sermon.

Anyway, "they" recently discovered that the Testimonies are actually something they have become excited about! For the first time since school, they are actually reading them! They requested and I gave them an audio CD so they could listen in their car, she said sometimes they fall asleep in bed, at night, listening to it. They can't get enough, they are tearing through the Testimonies. I bought them that new leather bound 9 volume in one book Testimonies the other day. A delayed wedding gift I called it. I also bought one for myself. They are really excited about the Conflict Series as well, it's like "something clicked" and suddenly "they get it". I am SO thrilled to be able to have someone to talk about this stuff with, that is as excited as I am about it.

They've been sneaking in a reference here and there in the sermons, mostly bible verses of course, SOP is a bit delicate from the pulpit for a Pastor. A small but growing group of those who are seeing the SOP in a new light and really embracing it. It's pretty cool, and at times, has brought me to tears of joy.

Gotta watch out for some members though, they aint all that excited and mostly just tired of hearing it....

[olger]

I like the SOP. Don't understand why some folks don't.

g

[12tribes]

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people. {CET 176.1}

It has always been like this throughout history, look at what happened to Jeremiah when he preached the straight testimony and Elijah, John the baptist and the apostles after Pentecost, it was not the message that caused the problem but, people rising up against it. The straight testimony in Rev 3 is telling people their true condition

[Gordon1]

One might conclude that the Testimonies are the greatest threat to many members.

It's unlikely that even 5% of North American Adventists have read through the Testimonies. Perhaps much less.

[Gordon1]

What IS this "Straight Testimony" that causes the shaking?

Clue: It's printed on the cover of your new book. Testimonies for the Church. All told, these comprise the straight testimony. Have you noticed some shaking around you Club? (wagging fingers, shaking fists, trembling in the pews)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people. {CET 176.1}

It has always been like this throughout history, look at what happened to Jeremiah when he preached the straight testimony and Elijah, John the baptist and the apostles after Pentecost, it was not the message that caused the problem but, people rising up against it. The straight testimony in Rev 3 is telling people their true condition

Some have said they cannot see how a man can acknowledge himself to be wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, and don't know it, and at the same time be rejoicing in the Lord

Well, I would like to know how any one else can! I would like to know how a man is going to rejoice in the Lord when he thinks he is all right himself. Can you tell? I can't imagine. Why, brethren, the Lord does not save us because we are so good but because He is so good. Do not forget that.

"There is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18.

Every moment that I do not see and confess that I am blind, and have not Him as my sight, I am in sin; He says so. 'Now you say you see; therefore your sin remains.' And every moment that I do not see and confess my nakedness and depend only and absolutely upon Him and His righteousness to clothe me, why so certainly I am ruined, utterly ruined, and every moment that I begin to say, 'Now I know so much,' no, I do not know that at all. Well, then, the thing that I am to do is to say, 'Lord, I do not know it; I depend upon You to teach me everything, even to teach me that I am wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked, and that I need all these things. And when I tell Him all that, He will give all I need. He will do it. That is our situation.

And now about that thought last night--some thought that I was going entirely too far. They could say, it is well enough when He says, 'You are wretched,' I say I am wretched. When He says, 'You are poor,' I say I am poor. When He says, 'You are blind,' I say I am blind. When He says, 'You are naked,' I say, I am naked. And when He says, 'You don't know it, then I am to say, "I know it!'? No, no. When He says, 'You don't know it,' I am to say, 'I don't know it.' Do not go to putting constructions upon His way. When I say I am wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, and on top of it He says that I don't know it, I say, "Lord, I dont' know it.' That brings us right to the text we started with that night,--'If any man thinks he knows anything, he does not know anything yet as he ought to know it.' 1 Cor.8:2. I do not know yet, as long as I have been acknowledging that thing, I know not how wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked I am.

Just as certainly as we take that Laodicean message as He speaks it, we shall receive all He has in it for us. Then brethren, that is what it is intended for. That is just what the Laodicean message is intended to do. Let it do its own work in His own way." A.T. Jones, 1893 General Conference Bulletin, 178,179.

sky

"Those who live nearest to Jesus discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." The Great Controversy, p.471.

[skyblue888]

Jesus said unto them, "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:41.

When Jesus tells you and me we are blind, (Rev.3:17) the thing for us to do is to say, "Lord, we are blind." He told those folks they were blind, and they were blind; but they said it was not so. It was so. Well, then, brethren, the thing for us to do is to come square up to that Laodicean message, and say that every word He says is so!

When He says you and I are wretched, tell him, "It is so, I am wretched; miserable, it is so, I am miserable; poor, it is so; I am poor, a perfect beggar, I shall never be anything else in the world; blind, I am blind, and shall never be anything else; naked, that is so; and I do not know it; that is so too. I do not know it at all, as I ought to know it." (1 Cor.8:2)

And then I will say to Him every day and every hour, "Lord, that is all so; but, oh, instead of my wretchedness, give me Thine own satisfaction; instead of my misery, give me Thine own comfort; instead of my poverty, supply all Thine own riches; instead of my blindness, be Thou my sight; instead of my nakedness, oh do Thou clothe me with Thine own righteousness; and what I know not, Lord, teach Thou me."

Brethren, when we come with one heart and one mind to that place, we shall have no difficulty at all in repenting. It will not be difficult to repent, and there will be no lack of repentance. The difficulty about our not being able to repent is that we have not confessed that what the Lord has told us is the truth." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.186, 187.

The Testimonies have told us that this message is the message of God to the Laodicean church.

sky

[Gordon1]

Never the less, I've been told by THREE people this week that I'm making too much of Sister White and her writings. One person noted that many had grown up in the church, they already "read all that stuff" in school.

Told me the same thing years ago. An active trio.

[cheddar]

I like the SOP. Don't understand why some folks don't.

g

Too many do's and don'ts and words like work and effort.

I want to hear more about that La-z-boy gospel.

Where you sit back, put your feet up and let Jesus do everything.

[skyblue888]

If you are resting in Jesus, in His merits, you will find work to do, works which God prepared even before the foundation of the world that you should walk in them. (Eph.2:10)

And yes it is true that "Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." F.W.27. Just another way of saying that "It is God who works in you both to will and to do." Phil.2:13.

But in order for that to happen one must appropriate to himself the merits of the Lamb of God and rest. Then God works and man works.

sky

[skyblue888]

"The gold tried in the fire is faith that works by love. Only this can bring us into harmony with God. We may be active, we may do much work; but without love, such love as dwelt in the heart of Christ, we can never be numbered with the family of Heaven." Christ’s Object Lessons, p.158; Galatians 5:6.

Is this not the Laodicean message, the "straight testimony" along with what brother Jones said in 1893 which was a repeat of the message he gave in 1888?

sky