WHAT IS TH E GREATEST THREAT TO SDA CHURCH?

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

I like the SOP. Don't understand why some folks don't.

g

Too many do's and don'ts and words like work and effort.

I want to hear more about that La-z-boy gospel.

Where you sit back, put your feet up and let Jesus do everything.

"Obsessive" is what the lazy call the committed.

`g

[ClubV12]

Gordon says,

"Told me the same thing years ago. An active trio."

Had to chuckle at that, yeah, those guys get around, been down to your place to I take it....

[John317]

Well put, 12tribes.

Rev. 3: 14 introduces us to the True Witness as the Source, or Origin, of all of God's creation. He loves us with an infinite love, which He proved at Calvary. If we won't listen to Him when He tells us the truth about ourselves, we won't listen to anyone.

[ClubV12]

Interesting analysis on the straight testimony. Expanding on Sky's thoughts, we need to come to a place where we love the law. Some accept bits and pieces, pull back from parts that cut to close, ignore the discovery of other bits.

The thing is we need to LOVE the law, not just "keep it". If we don't love it, embrace it, search to find out more about the details, the things we don't yet know about but need to know about, it means nothing.

If you find yourself grumbling about it, or thinking it's to hard, nay, impossible to keep, you won't be able to see it in the right light. Pray that the Lord may give you that love, for the law. Nobody likes to be around a grumbler or a complainer, nor does Jesus or His angels. If it's not love inspired, it's worthless.

David says, "Oh how I love thy law." Boy did I have a tough time wrapping my head around THAT statement when I first heard it. It, dimly, is starting to make sense.

[John317]

Since the law is a transcript or written expression of God's character-- and since the law is everything that God is-- we really don't love God if we don't love His law.

If we hate His law and rebel against it, we hate God and are in rebellion against Him as well.

[Gustave]

Since the law is a transcript or written expression of God's character-- and since the law is everything that God is-- we really don't love God if we don't love His law.

If we hate His law and rebel against it, we hate God and are in rebellion against Him as well.

There appears to be a problem then.

Ellen WhiteSpirit gifts volume 1 17.1

The Lord has shown me that Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, NEXT to Jesus Christ. His countenance was mild, expressive of happiness like the other angels. His forehead was high and broad, and showed great intelligence. His form was perfect. He had a noble, majestic bearing. And I saw that WHEN God said to his Son, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man. He was filled with envy, jealousy and hatred. He wished to be the highest in heaven, next to God, and receive the highest honors. Until this time all heaven was in order, harmony and perfect subjection to the government of God. It was the highest sin to rebel against the order and will of God. All heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies with a commanding angel at their head. All the angels were astir. Satan was insinuating against the government of God, ambitious to exalt himself, and unwilling to submit to the authority of Jesus. Some of the angels sympathized with Satan in his rebellion, and others strongly contended for the honor and wisdom of God in giving authority to his Son.

Look at the time - hack which was codified by Ellen White whereas she states...

...That God's government was in place and everything was in perfect subjection to it.

...PRIOR to the creation of the earth & all that's in it.

Since the Sabbath wasn't initiated until AFTER the creation of man....

...We can conclude that God's Government operated perfectly without it.

...Thus the Sabbath is not part of God's nature - at all.

[ClubV12]

The Sabbath was made for MAN.

[Gustave]

The Sabbath was made for MAN.

Exactly, which demonstrates it was outside the moral law or character of God...

...Simply because God had a "govt" with laws in place eternally prior to creation.

...And the Sabbath did not have a place in that govt.

That more than establishes that the Trinity is the greatest threat to the SDA church...

...Just like I said it was.

[John317]

That more than establishes that the Trinity is the greatest threat to the SDA church...

...Just like I said it was.

How do you figure? Explain your thinking.

Almost all SDAs believe in the Trinity, Gustave. It's a well established, official doctrine of the church.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

The Sabbath was made for MAN.

Exactly, which demonstrates it was outside the moral law or character of God...

...Simply because God had a "govt" with laws in place eternally prior to creation.

...And the Sabbath did not have a place in that govt.

No, the Sabbath is not outside the moral law or character of God. It's a test of obedience to God, just as the tree in the midst of the Garden was a test.

The 7th day Sabbath was created for mankind, but the principle of the Sabbath is a part of God's government all over the universe. It is the same with the rest of the Ten Commandments: all of them are written to meet mankind in our unique condition, and they are all based on eternal principles that are in perfect harmony with God's character.

[John317]

...

Ellen WhiteSpirit gifts volume 1 17.1

The Lord has shown me that Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, NEXT to Jesus Christ. His countenance was mild, expressive of happiness like the other angels. His forehead was high and broad, and showed great intelligence. His form was perfect. He had a noble, majestic bearing. And I saw that WHEN God said to his Son, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man. He was filled with envy, jealousy and hatred. He wished to be the highest in heaven, next to God, and receive the highest honors. Until this time all heaven was in order, harmony and perfect subjection to the government of God. It was the highest sin to rebel against the order and will of God. All heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies with a commanding angel at their head. All the angels were astir. Satan was insinuating against the government of God, ambitious to exalt himself, and unwilling to submit to the authority of Jesus. Some of the angels sympathized with Satan in his rebellion, and others strongly contended for the honor and wisdom of God in giving authority to his Son.

What's the problem with this quote?

Please quote the Bible text which you believe Ellen White contradicts in the above paragraph.

[Musicman1228]

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matt. 7:15.

When you picture a wolf in sheep's clothing what do you see? The picture I was given when I was a child in Sabbath School was that of a wolf that was draped with a sheep skin. But this is a wrong picture. What is it that a wolf in sheep's clothing looks like? A SHEEP. The sheep cannot tell the difference between this creature and themselves, which is why they are fooled and then laid waste.

What is it that is so insidious about a wolf in sheep's clothing? It is the fact that they look just like a part of the flock, indistinguishable from the rest. How do you tell them apart if you can't SEE a difference? By what comes out of their mouth.

Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like THE lamb (of God) and it spoke like THE dragon [or a wolf].  Rev. 13:11.

The ONLY way to tell if someone is actually of the flock is if they speak the same exact words that Jesus Christ did. If they don't then they are a wolf that only LOOKS like a lamb, they are NOT a lamb.

This is why the deception of Paul and EGW has worked so well; they look just like a member of the flock, when in fact they are wolves who spout the words of the dragon. Only the wise will recognize this.

[John317]

But by this description of a wolf in sheep's clothing, many people might pick you out to be a wolf. The wolf claims to be in the flock of sheep when he really isn't.

As far as Paul or Ellen White are concerned, you have yet to show on the Forum that you understand what they teach. After reading your posts and your book, I'm convinced that you reject Paul, Mark, Luke, James, Hebrews, etc., as well as Ellen White, simply because you've accepted so many false interpretations of what they wrote. For instance, you believe Acts 2: 3 shows that the Devil is the one who influenced the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. You believe this because you won't accept the translations of that verse which occur in every printed text of the New Testament. Instead, you choose to try to make up your own private translation of that verse even though you've never studied the Greek language. Accept the translation of your NASB. It's correct in Acts 2: 3.

[Gustave]

What's the problem with this quote?

Please quote the Bible text which you believe Ellen White contradicts in the above paragraph

I'll attempt to.

Ellen White

The Lord has shown me that Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, NEXT to Jesus Christ.

Where this violates?

Isaiah 41,4

Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

How could Satan be "next to Christ" and be happy with that position UNTIL Christ was honored so that He was NEXT TO GOD UNLESS prior to "God" honoring Christ - Christ was NOT next to God? Remember, Satan was HAPPY until Christ was "honored".

Ellen White

Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man. He was filled with envy, jealousy and hatred. He wished to be the highest in heaven, next to God, and receive the highest honors. Until this time all heaven was in order, harmony and perfect subjection to the government of God

Ok, according to what she just said Satan was "happy" since his creation, for who knows how long...

...And ALL heaven was in perfect subjection to the government of God.

This state of perfect subjection to "God" persisted UNTIL "God"...

...Honored Christ by consulting Christ on the formation of man.

To be perfectly honest this sounds very odd to me John317...

..."God" consulting Christ about the formation of man.

...As in Christ didn't know about the creation of man prior to God consulting Him about it?

And it was God consulting Christ about the creation of man that elevated Christ...

...So that Christ was, subsequent to the consultation, "next to God".

Ellen said everything was perfect and Satan was happy UNTIL God consulted Christ...

...Ellen states that this great honor that God gave Christ Satan WANTED.

"He ( Satan ) whished to be the highest in heaven, NEXT to God, and RECEIVE the highest honors"

If Satan was happy UNTIL Christ received these honors that God gave to Christ...

...By default that means the Christ didn't have them ( these honors ) until they were given to Him.

Ellen didn't say Satan wanted to be God, she said he wanted to be NEXT to God...

...And Christ receiving these honors MOVED Christ NEXT TO GOD.

...This is what Ellen said set Satan off.

Where this violates?

Isaiah 14,12

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the starS of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High

You will notice that's a PLURAL - Lucifer wanted to exalt above the starS [ plural ] of "God"...

...Therefore Satan knew he couldn't be past God but he wanted to be LIKE GOD.

Ellen flat out said above that When God honored Christ about asking Him about the formation of man that this ACT by God honored Christ so that Christ was "LIKE GOD" and that's what Satan got so mad about - He ( Satan ) WANTED to be LIKE GOD and was jealous that Christ was given the highest honors.

Jesus IS and always HAS BEEN God...

...You seriously don't see a massive problem here?

...You can't see how this violates the Trinity is a massive way?

[John317]

...Jesus IS and always HAS BEEN God...

...You seriously don't see a massive problem here?

...You can't see how this violates the Trinity is a massive way?

It seems a problem to you because you are misunderstanding what Ellen White said.

She's not claiming that Christ was not always God. In fact she says plainly that Jesus is the eternal Son, and that He was God in the highest sense. That can only mean that Christ is equal to the Father. She says this over and over again.

What you evidently don't see is that Ellen White is also describing things from the viewpoint of the angels, and particularly from the viewpoint of Lucifer.

I'll have to take up this conversation again in the morning, because it's time I go to bed now.

[Sonny]

Insight Magazine is no authority, particularly when it contradicts either the Bible or Ellen White.

Here's the whole context:

Read!

[John317]

I don't have any objections to what Jack Sequiera says in that link, Sonny.

But what we need to realize is that we could be that last generation. We shouldn't wait to make sure we're in that last generation before we keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Notice that Jack Sequiera says,

Quote:

According to Bible prophecy and the signs of the times, we are presently living in the Day of Atonement...

Do you believe this? What does it mean to you?

I believe that one of the greatest threats to the SDA church is that Seventh-day Adventists will forget that we are indeed living in the Day of Atonement.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: John317

Insight Magazine is no authority, particularly when it contradicts either the Bible or Ellen White.

Here's the whole context:

Read!

The world will be split between two groups of people...

.."Belivers" & unbelievers.

THE Antichrist will have convinced the masses that HE is the long awaited for Christ....

...The historical Jesus of Scripture will be charged as being a "fake".

...The Antichrist will NOT claim He is associated with Jesus! That's the WHOLE point.

John 5,43

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me NOT: if another shall come in his own name, him ye WILL receive

Jesus was addressing JEWS who to this very day REJECT that He was the Christ...

...Eventually one will come ( in their own name ) that the Jews WILL receive.

...Logically, one that comes in a name other than Jesus will not use the name of Jesus.

The article is way off.

[ClubV12]

Gustave says,

"The world will be split between two groups of people...

.."Belivers" & unbelievers."

Well, ya got that part right at least.

If you study the Sanctuary service (as I am presently doing) you will very quicky discover the Day of Atonement was very serious business. A time for confession, repentance AND reformation, on penalty of death for those who did not heed the precise directions given. Today, it has nothing to do, WHAT SO EVER, with the Jewish Nation. This is about the people of God, those who chose to follow and obey and those who think He doesn't really care about the "details" and "pretty close" is close enough. It's not, your either with Him or your against Him, there is no middle ground.

[Guest]

Only the wise will recognize this.

And of course you would be one of the wise, right?

[Gustave]

Gustave says,

"The world will be split between two groups of people...

.."Belivers" & unbelievers."

Well, ya got that part right at least.

If you study the Sanctuary service (as I am presently doing) you will very quicky discover the Day of Atonement was very serious business. A time for confession, repentance AND reformation, on penalty of death for those who did not heed the precise directions given. Today, it has nothing to do, WHAT SO EVER, with the Jewish Nation. This is about the people of God, those who chose to follow and obey and those who think He doesn't really care about the "details" and "pretty close" is close enough. It's not, your either with Him or your against Him, there is no middle ground.

What have you found in the study of the Sanctuary service...

...That invalidates what Jesus said would happen with Antichrists?

[John317]

THE Antichrist will have convinced the masses that HE is the long awaited for Christ....

...The historical Jesus of Scripture will be charged as being a "fake".

...The Antichrist will NOT claim He is associated with Jesus! That's the WHOLE point.

The people through whom Satan will work just before Christ returns will not claim they are opposed to Jesus Christ. They will claim they are the true followers of Jesus.

Satan is not so stupid as to have his servants announce that they hate and reject Jesus Christ.

Quote:

2 Thes. 2:3-10

[3] Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, [4] who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. [5] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? [6] And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. [8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. [9] The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, [10] and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Where does verse 4 say the man of sin takes his seat?

Notice also the man of sin comes with wicked deception. That means he will not be honest. You won't be able to trust what he says. He won't tell the truth about what he really think of Jesus Christ. "The man of sin" is called by this name because he tells people God's law has been changed. He thus encourages people to break God's law.

[Gustave]

The people through whom Satan will work just before Christ returns will not claim they are opposed to Jesus Christ. They will claim they are the true followers of Jesus.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The people through whom Satan will work just before Christ returns will not claim they are opposed to Jesus Christ. They will claim they are the true followers of Jesus.

By definition that's NOT antichrist John...

...antichrist = "adversary" or "enemy" of Jesus.

The primary meaning of the Greek preposition anti is "instead of," or "in place of." It also can mean "against," but it need not describe someone who is against Christ. Actually the antichrist-- Satan-- wants to take Christ's place in the minds and hearts of people.

Is he also Christ's adverssary and self-declared enemy? Sure. But he doesn't always go around telling people that he hates Christ. In the book of Acts and in the Gospels, Christ's most effective enemies were those who claimed to be his friends. Keep in mind that antichrist is a deceiver.

Even the antichrist that John refers to in his letters is not known for claiming to hate Christ. See 1 John 4: 1-3; 2 John 7.

Does John say in those verses that we can determine who antichrist is by asking him if he hates Christ? Do you think the world's greatest liar or those who work for him will tell you the truth?

We need to study Rev. 11 to 19 in order to see how antichrist captures virtually the entire world-- except for a comparatively small group who refuse to worship him at the risk of losing their lives.

Have you ever noticed that the ones who don't receive the mark of the beast or the plagues are keepers of God's commandments and the faith of Jesus?

That can only mean that those who receive the plagues and worship the beast will NOT keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Do you suppose that the beast, or the man of sin, will demand that people disobey the fifth, sixth or seventh, etc., commandment? Or is it much more likely to be that part of God's law which people have been led to believe no longer exists?

Which commandment of God do you believe is most likely that the beast will require people to disobey?

I believe the evidence shows that it is one that has to do with worship. The counterfeit of this commandment of God has to do with the beast's authority and power. And finally, according to Daniel 7: 25, it has to do with time.

[John317]

The man of sin takes his seat in the temple...

...This could also mean that Lucifer will possess a human body.

...The body IS the temple of God.

The man of sin-- or the man of lawlessness-- has already taken his seat in the church of God. Isn't that exactly where you would want him to be if you were Satan?

God's Word predicted that this is exactly what would happen:

Quote:

Acts 20:29-30

I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; [30] and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

1 Tim. 4:1-5

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, [2] through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, [3] who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. [4] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, [5] for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

2 Thes. 2:3-12 [3] Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, [4] who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. [5] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? [6] And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. [8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. [9] The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, [10] and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. [11] Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, [12] in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.