WHAT IS TH E GREATEST THREAT TO SDA CHURCH?

[John317]

...The Word of God contains no lies. That is why it is called the Word of God.

Notice it is not called "The Word of God and the Devil"

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Yes, the 'wheat' and 'tares' are people of both sides; but WHERE do they get the information (truth or lies) that cause them to be either on God's side or Satan's side? It is the WORDS you believe that cause you to be on the side you have chosen. so actually my interpretation is exactly correct, because that is what Jesus taught.

It's not because people are reading different words that causes them to be on God's side or Satan's side. They both can be reading the very same words. What makes the difference is the spiritual condition of their heart, their openness to the work of the Holy Spirit, and their willingness to do the will of God.

Jesus said:

"Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." {John 8: 47}

"If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. {John 7: 17}

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, [32] and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." {John 8: 31-32}

[BobRyan]

Your statement makes no sense. The Trinity doctrine is an official doctrine of the SDA church, supported by not only the Bible but also by the writings of Ellen White, as shown in such books as Evangelism 614-617

[BobRyan]

The one greatest threat to the SDA church - is second-quessing doubting and downsizing the concept of prophecy - be it Bible writers or Ellen White that are the target of such criticism, down-sizing and leveling.

The result is not only acceptance of false doctrines on origins such as evolutionism, but also gay marriage, loss of our I.J mission and message etc etc.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen (in vision) and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans.

I call upon our church members to read the whole of the third chapter of Revelation, and to make an application of it. The message to the church of the Laodiceans applies especially to the people of God today. (RH August 20, 1903)

Apparently the majority of you do not accept the above. Ellen White's words have been ignored.

Laodicea, which EGW applies "especially to the people of God", is self-deceived. She called "upon our church members to read the whole of the third chapter of Revelation"! Here's the heart of the message:

Rev 3:17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and you do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked.

Note the phrase "you do not know". That's self-deception! The majority of Adventists teach that they are the remnant church. Their proof? They keep God's commandments - all ten of them.

Christ disagrees! He says that they are self-righteous and that they need to repent of their condition.

[John317]

..Note the phrase "you do not know". That's self-deception! The majority of Adventists teach that they are the remnant church. Their proof? They keep God's commandments - all ten of them.

Christ disagrees! He says that they are self-righteous and that they need to repent of their condition.

Sonny, since you evidently believe so heartily in the words of Ellen White, let me suggest that you read ALL that she says on the topic. If you do this, you will notice that Ellen White herself calls the SDA church the Remnant people and "commandment-keepers," etc. The fact that we are Laodicea doesn't prevent us from being God's people or the remnant church. Even the letter to Laodicea doesn't tell the church that it is no longer the church. The whole point of the letter is that God loves Laodicea and has the solution to Laodicea's problems.

Is Laodicea self-deceived about its spiritual condition? Yes? Is Laodicea self-righteous? Yes. Is it a perfect church? By no means! Is it God's church? Yes. Has God given up on His church? No. Is it hopeless? No. Has He rejected His church? No. Are you and I part of the Laodicean church? Yes. Do you and I have any reason to brag about ourselves or to feel superior to others? Certainly not. Then let's be sure to continually pray for ourselves and for all of our beloved fellow-believers in Laodicea, holding them up before God.

[Gustave]

The triune Godhead -- "God in three persons" is the official teaching of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Pretty hard to ignore that one.

You are right to say that if Christ is not God, if the Holy Spirit is not God - then the SDA view of the Trinity - the Triune Godhead - "God in three persons" - is at risk and almost all of SDA doctrine is based on the central point of the existence of God as one God in three persons.

But we have no "threats" today in that area. So back to the OP - what are the things being challenged today?

It's the largest 'threat' the SDA Church has faced in the last several years...

...And the numbers have been growing.

...The OP asked what the Greatest threat was.

In all seriousness Bob, what possibility was there ( or is there ) that The Father...

...Could "sin & loose His salvation"?

If whatever it is that makes the Father, Son & Holy Spirit God is missing to a degree that one of the Godhead could lose it's salvation than that's not God, not by a longshot.

Not God in three persons but God IS three persons...

...Saying God in 3 persons allows for rubrics such as the real God exalting something else.

...To the status of nearly God.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

..Note the phrase "you do not know". That's self-deception! The majority of Adventists teach that they are the remnant church. Their proof? They keep God's commandments - all ten of them.

Christ disagrees! He says that they are self-righteous and that they need to repent of their condition.

Sonny, since you evidently believe so heartily in the words of Ellen White, let me suggest that you read ALL that she says on the topic. If you do this, you will notice that Ellen White herself calls the SDA church the Remnant people and "commandment-keepers," etc. The fact that we are Laodicea doesn't prevent us from being God's people or the remnant church. Even the letter to Laodicea doesn't tell the church that it is no longer the church. The whole point of the letter is that God loves Laodicea and has the solution to Laodicea's problems.

Is Laodicea self-deceived about its spiritual condition? Yes? Is Laodicea self-righteous? Yes. Is it a perfect church? By no means! Is it God's church? Yes. Has God given up on His church? No. Is it hopeless? No. Has He rejected His church? No. Are you and I part of the Laodicean church? Yes. Do you and I have any reason to brag about ourselves or to feel superior to others? Certainly not. Then let's be sure to continually pray for ourselves and for all of our beloved fellow-believers in Laodicea, holding them up before God.

John,

Well done. This is a very good explanation of who Leodicea is, and I agree whole-heartedly.

Since this is true do you not also believe that the other 6 messages to the assemblies are also meant only for the 'remnant' church? If this is true then can you not see that just as the church of Leodicea is a characteristic of the SDA church at the time of the end so too is the message to the church of Thyatira also meant specifically for the SDA church, and that the Jezebel spoken of in this message represents the 'end time' female prophet of the 'remnant church'?

God is always specific when He gives a 'symbol', and that symbol always means something or someone that is literal. The symbol of 'Jezebel' is not amorphous, it does not mean ANY female prophet at ANY time. This prophecy is specifically addressed to the SDA church, who has a female prophetess the description of whom is given in the prophecy. This not only proves that the SDA church is the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end, but also that the prophetess that this church has venerated is, in fact, a false prophetess as defined by Jesus Christ in this prophecy.

I know this will make you and other dedicated SDA's very uncomfortable, but I give you this simply to show you why I believe that EGW is a false prophet and why the SDA church is the 'remnant', not to try to convince you that you should believe as I do.

[Sonny]

....you will notice that Ellen White herself calls the SDA church the Remnant people and "commandment-keepers," etc.

It's a remnant in the sense it's restoring truths lost by the man of sin.

However, it's not the remnant of Revelation, yet. Before the remnant is formed there will be shaking.

“Technically, two movements must occur before God will have a remnant.... First, many SDAs will decide to leave the church and will join Babylon (ref. Great Controversy, page 608).... Second, a great number of people who are not now SDAs will be convinced that God is truthfully perceived by this church, and will join (ref. Great Controversy, page 390). This blending of God’s friends at the end time is what will make up the remnant.” [insight Magazine, 13 March 1979]

[skyblue888]

The greatest threat to the SDA church comes from within, just as the greatest threat to Christian Church throughout all history has been from within. It was the same with the Israelites. If the Israelites had obeyed God and been faithful to Him, their enemies wouldn't have been able to win any of their battles. Ellen White says the same thing about the SDA church. In this, of course, she is in complete harmony with Scripture.

John317

__________________

Very true.

There was a shaking in the days of Christ. First came the first call to the Jewish people to repent and believe the Gospel and that the time of Daniel 9 concerning the Messiah being anointed was fulfilled. The call was made light of. Then came the crucifixion followed by a second call to the Jewish people beginning at Pentecost. This last call was not only rejected by the leadership but they turned upon the bearers of the message and there was a great persecution. This is when the skaking took place. The Jewish church was left behind and the bearers of the message turned to the Gentiles.

The same scenario will take place in these last days.

"The Lord has declared that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing work." 2 S.M.390.

"The important movements of the present have their parallel in those of the past, and the experience of the church in former ages has lessons of great value for our time." G.C.343.

Therefore, the greatest threat comes from within.

"We have far more to fear from within than from without." 1 S.M.122.

sky

[miz3]

I continue to read every word of your fabulous posts.

Please keep up the great work.

[skyblue888]

whose posts?

[miz3]

whose posts?

Everybody's posts.

[BobRyan]

It's the largest 'threat' the SDA Church has faced in the last several years...

...And the numbers have been growing.

...The OP asked what the Greatest threat was.

In all seriousness Bob, what possibility was there ( or is there ) that The Father...

...Could "sin & loose His salvation"?

If whatever it is that makes the Father, Son & Holy Spirit God is missing to a degree that one of the Godhead could lose it's salvation than that's not God, not by a longshot.

God cannot get hungry or tired - Christ did.

Phil 2 says that although Christ already existed in the form of God He chose instead of RETAINING that position to "empty himself" - thus the tired, hungry, weakened Christ falling down on the way to Calvary.

Did you really think that cross was "too much weight" for God the Father at that point?

in Christ,

Bob

[Gustave]

God cannot get hungry or tired - Christ did.

[skyblue888]

I thought i would share this interesting excerpt from the 1893 G.C. Bulletin by A.T. Jones:

"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." Phil.2:5,6.

Last night we came to this: that in order to have the righteousness of Christ--which is the latter rain, which is the preparation for the loud cry--we must have the mind of Christ only; it cannot come in any other way. This is precisely the advice that is given to us in the Scriptures: "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." Phil.2:5,6. What is the thing that that text shows that the mind of Christ does? What did it do in him? It emptied himself. When that mind is in us, what will it do there? The same thing. It will empty us of self. Then the first thought that that text gives is that the mind of Christ empties of himself the one in whom it is.

When that mind that was in Christ emptied himself, then what came? God filled him. When that mind that was in him is in us, and does in us what it did in him--empties us of self--what then will fill the place? God in Christ will fill us. Then God in Christ dwells in us. But that takes self out of the way.

Now what mind is in us to start with? The mind of self. What does that mind do? It exalts self. What kind of mind is it we have to start with? The natural mind. A man has a natural mind, and he must have another mind, he must have the mind that was in Christ; but that mind that was in Christ empties the one in whom it dwells. Therefore as we have a mind to start with, and must have another than that, while that other empties of self the one in whom it is, does it not follow inevitably that the mind which we have to start with, is a mind only of self?" A.T. Jones, 1893 General Conference Bulletin, p.257.

"When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart; the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life." C.O.L.312.

So as our mind becomes one with the mind of Christ, His mind empties our mind of self. Our mind is not annihilated or eradicated but it is ennobled, restored. So then "Subjection to Christ is the restoration to one's self, to the true glory and dignity of man." D.A.464; T.M.396.

So our greatest threat, from within, is to not have the mind of Christ.

All agree?

sky

[John317]

....you will notice that Ellen White herself calls the SDA church the Remnant people and "commandment-keepers," etc.

Originally Posted By: Sonny

It's a remnant in the sense it's restoring truths lost by the man of sin.

However, it's not the remnant of Revelation, yet. Before the remnant is formed there will be shaking.

Technically, two movements must occur before God will have a remnant.... First, many SDAs will decide to leave the church and will join Babylon (ref. Great Controversy, page 608).... Second, a great number of people who are not now SDAs will be convinced that God is truthfully perceived by this church, and will join (ref. Great Controversy, page 390). This blending of God's friends at the end time is what will make up the remnant. [insight Magazine, 13 March 1979]

Insight Magazine is no authority, particularly when it contradicts either the Bible or Ellen White.

(I'm not suggesting that Insight is a bad magazine. After all, I have written articles for it.)

Don't ignore the following statements by Ellen White, in which she obviously refers to the present SDA church as the "remnant church" and "God's remnant people."

Quote:

It is for their own good that the Lord counsels the remnant church to discard the use of flesh meats, tea, and coffee, and other harmful foods. There are plenty of other things on which we can subsist that are wholesome and good. {CCh 231.6}

I saw that God's people should act wisely, and leave nothing undone on their part to place the business of the church in a secure state. Then after all is done that they can do, they should trust the Lord to overrule these things for them, that Satan take no advantage of God's remnant people. It is Satan's time to work. A stormy future is before us; and the church should be awake to make an advance move that they may stand securely against his plans. It is time that something was done. God is not pleased to have His people leave the matters of the church at loose ends, and suffer the enemy to have the whole advantage and control affairs as best pleases him. 448 {CCh 247, 248}

Sonny, the shaking has already begun. People are being shaken our and people are being shaken in. Ellen White said that the shaking had already started in her day.

It has always been the remnant of the Remnant who is saved. That is the way it was in the Old Testament, too.

The point here is that the foundational pillars of our faith and the movement itself will go through to the end. Many will drop out and no longer carry the ark of God. Below, Ellen White explains why.

Quote:

The remnant church will be brought into great trial and distress. Those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, will feel the ire of the dragon and his hosts. Satan numbers the world as his subjects; he has gained control of the apostate churches; but here is a little company that are resisting his supremacy. ChS 157

The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The observance of the false sabbath will be urged upon us. The contest will be between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. Those who have yielded step by step to worldly demands, and conformed to worldly customs, will then yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. At that time the gold will be separated from the dross. . . . Many a star that we have admired for its brilliance will then go out in darkness. Those who have assumed the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will then appear in the shame of their own nakedness.--Prophets and Kings, p. 188. {ChS 157.2}

[John317]

Crysostom is no authority. He is interesting to read in order to understand what some early Christians believed, but he is no more than a representation of some in the church at that time. He wasn't inspired and he wasn't a prophet or an apostle of God. Our standard and measuring stick has to remain the Bible, not the so-called Church Fathers. They lack the authority to interpret the Scriptures for us.

[skyblue888]

Crysostom is no authority. He is interesting to read in order to understand what some early Christians believed, but he is no more than a representation of some in the church at that time. He wasn't inspired and he wasn't a prophet or an apostle of God. Our standard and measuring stick has to remain the Bible, not the so-called Church Fathers. They lack the authority to interpret the Scriptures for us.

I agree.

John in your previous post you quoted "The remnant church will be brought into great trial and distress. Those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, will feel the ire of the dragon and his hosts. Satan numbers the world as his subjects; he has gained control of the apostate churches; but here is a little company that are resisting his supremacy." ChS 157

Do you mean to tell us that this "little company" of people are those who will remain faithful to the present structure of organization which is antagonistic to Gospel order?

sky

[John317]

Quote:

The Protestant world today see in the little company keeping the Sabbath a Mordecai in the gate. His character and conduct, expressing reverence for the law of God, are a constant rebuke to those who have cast off the fear of the Lord, and are trampling upon His Sabbath; the unwelcome intruder must by some means be put out of the way. --Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 450. {ChS 158.2}

Satan will excite indignation against the humble minority who conscientiously refuse to accept popular customs and traditions. Men of position and reputation will join with the lawless and the vile to take counsel against the people of God. Wealth, genius, education, will combine to cover them with contempt. Persecuting rulers, ministers, and church members will conspire against them. With voice and pen, by boasts, threats, and ridicule, they will seek to overthrow their faith. By false representations and angry appeals, they will stir up the passions of the people. Not having a "Thus saith the Scriptures" to bring against the advocates of the Bible Sabbath, they will resort to oppressive enactments to supply the lack. To secure popularity and patronage, legislators will yield to the demand for a Sunday law. . . . On this battlefield comes the last great conflict of the controversy between truth and error.-- Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 450, 451. {ChS 158.3}

It has ever been against my principle to enter into controversy with any one, or to spend my time in vindicating myself against the attacks of those who do not hesitate to adopt any means to pervert the truth, or to cast stigma upon those who stand in defense of the law of God. Nothing would please Satan and his followers better than to have me engage in this work; for then they would give me enough to keep me busy all the time, and thus my real work would be left undone. But this is not the work that God has given me. Years ago I determined to let nothing draw me from the work of speaking and writing plain Bible truth. Unmoved alike by condemnation or approval, censure or applause, falsehood or flattery, I have not shunned to declare, without partiality and without hypocrisy, the message that God has given me. I have always borne, and trust that I shall ever continue to bear, a plain, decided testimony against sin in the church and out. {HS 237.1}

[John317]

... in your previous post you quoted "The remnant church will be brought into great trial and distress. Those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, will feel the ire of the dragon and his hosts. Satan numbers the world as his subjects; he has gained control of the apostate churches; but here is a little company that are resisting his supremacy." ChS 157

Do you mean to tell us that this "little company" of people are those who will remain faithful to the present structure of organization which is antagonistic to Gospel order?

They remain true and loyal to Jesus and to the faith of Jesus. The structure changes-- the truth doesn't.

[skyblue888]

"The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The observance of the false sabbath will be urged upon us. The contest will be between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. Those who have yielded step by step to worldly demands, and conformed to worldly customs, will then yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. At that time the gold will be separated from the dross. . . . Many a star that we have admired for its brilliance will then go out in darkness. Those who have assumed the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will then appear in the shame of their own nakedness.--Prophets and Kings, p. 188. {ChS 157.2}

Many read these words and assume that it means that the faithful at that time will be those who shall cling to the present structure in defiance of the laws urging the false sabbath upon them and that those who leave the present structure will be replaced by others who will come from the world to join those who have remained faithful to the true Sabbath and therefore to the present church organization.

I do not agree with this interpretation.

sky

[John317]

I don't see those words as referring primarily to a church structure. It's talking about belief and practice of the truth as it is Jesus.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

... in your previous post you quoted "The remnant church will be brought into great trial and distress. Those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, will feel the ire of the dragon and his hosts. Satan numbers the world as his subjects; he has gained control of the apostate churches; but here is a little company that are resisting his supremacy." ChS 157

Do you mean to tell us that this "little company" of people are those who will remain faithful to the present structure of organization which is antagonistic to Gospel order?

They remain true and loyal to Jesus and to the faith of Jesus. The structure changes-- the truth doesn't.

Could you please elaborate on this a little?

Thanks

sky

[skyblue888]

I don't see those words as referring primarily to a church structure. It's talking about belief and practice of the truth as it is Jesus.

Belief and practice of the truth as it is in Jesus in the present structure?

sky

*If you are reading between the lines, I am suggesting that those who shall remain loyal to the truth when the false sabbath shall be urged upon us will be denounced to the Catholics by a church that has rejected great light. I am sure you have read that statement in which Mrs. White speaks of the false sabbath being urged upon us by our own ministers in open air meetings. Right?

[Gustave]

I thought i would share this interesting excerpt from the 1893 G.C. Bulletin by A.T. Jones:

"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." Phil.2:5,6.

Last night we came to this: that in order to have the righteousness of Christ--which is the latter rain, which is the preparation for the loud cry--we must have the mind of Christ only; it cannot come in any other way. This is precisely the advice that is given to us in the Scriptures: "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." Phil.2:5,6. What is the thing that that text shows that the mind of Christ does? What did it do in him? It emptied himself. When that mind is in us, what will it do there? The same thing. It will empty us of self. Then the first thought that that text gives is that the mind of Christ empties of himself the one in whom it is.

When that mind that was in Christ emptied himself, then what came? God filled him. When that mind that was in him is in us, and does in us what it did in him--empties us of self--what then will fill the place? God in Christ will fill us. Then God in Christ dwells in us. But that takes self out of the way.

Now what mind is in us to start with? The mind of self. What does that mind do? It exalts self. What kind of mind is it we have to start with? The natural mind. A man has a natural mind, and he must have another mind, he must have the mind that was in Christ; but that mind that was in Christ empties the one in whom it dwells. Therefore as we have a mind to start with, and must have another than that, while that other empties of self the one in whom it is, does it not follow inevitably that the mind which we have to start with, is a mind only of self?" A.T. Jones, 1893 General Conference Bulletin, p.257.

"When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart; the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life." C.O.L.312.

So as our mind becomes one with the mind of Christ, His mind empties our mind of self. Our mind is not annihilated or eradicated but it is ennobled, restored. So then "Subjection to Christ is the restoration to one's self, to the true glory and dignity of man." D.A.464; T.M.396.

So our greatest threat, from within, is to not have the mind of Christ.

All agree?

sky

It is ironic that you would quote one of the most vocal anti-Trinitarians the SDA church has produced...

...In answer to how and what Christ emptied Himself of.

...That may have been missed by most here but it didn't slip by me.

Alonzo T Jones

He [Christ] who was born in the form of God took the form of man." [color:#330000]In the flesh he was all the while AS God, but he did not appear as God." "He divested himself of the form of God, and in its stead took the form and fashion of man" "The glories of the form of God, he for awhile relinquished." (A. T. Jones, General Conference Bulletin, March 4th 1895, ‘The Third Angel’s Message – No. 23’)