tribeofjudah Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 A popular Radio preacher on the West Coast was talking about this a few days ago - and it struck me. My friends, can you please shed some light. He used the following text from 1 Thess below. 1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. He went on to say: "Don't believe other Christian circles that say the dead are sleeping" (something to this effect) and he was obviously targeting Adventists and others. He kepts stressing the text "at the COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST with ALL HIS SAINTS." He's saying that the righteous dead are in Heaven and awaiting to come back at the Second coming of Jesus. I would submit to him this text: Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. The fathers of Faith have NOT risen to Heaven, except a few chosen "first fruits" like Enoch, Elijah, Moses......etc. They are in fact sleeping in the grave. This radio preacher was trying to discredit our SDA theology. I'm sure his followers are easily swayed by his preaching without further study of the bible. What say you....??? Quote
doug yowell Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 He kept stressing the text "at the COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST with ALL HIS SAINTS." He's saying that the righteous dead are in Heaven and awaiting to come back at the Second coming of Jesus. ...and SDA's are always accused of prooftexting. Tomorrow. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 10, 2011 Moderators Posted September 10, 2011 A popular Radio preacher on the West Coast was talking about this a few days ago - and it struck me. My friends, can you please shed some light. He used the following text from 1 Thess below. 1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. He went on to say: "Don't believe other Christian circles that say the dead are sleeping" (something to this effect) and he was obviously targeting Adventists and others. He kepts stressing the text "at the COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST with ALL HIS SAINTS." He's saying that the righteous dead are in Heaven and awaiting to come back at the Second coming of Jesus. ...What say you....??? These verses show the answer: Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Jude 1:14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, NOTE: the Greek word for "saints" can also refer to angels. It means "holy ones." Matthew 24:30-31 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 John, of course the angels will be coming with Him too but what about the multitudes that were raised with Christ at His resurrection and Moses who was raised from the dead and Enoch and Elijah who were translated. All these were taken to Heaven and they are coming back with Christ at His return. I believe these are the "saints" this passage is referring to in its primary application. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
tribeofjudah Posted September 10, 2011 Author Posted September 10, 2011 Yes, Sky....I believe that some few chosen are in Heaven now. I also think that some of those raise during Christ's death naturally died again. This preacher man on radio is saying that EVERYONE good who dies is already in Heaven. That's where I strongly disagree with his teaching....very dangerous and misleading. The state of the dead is what's in question here...... Many will be deceived...!!! He's misreading and misunderstanding this: 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Key points: He mentioned the word "prevent" in 15....forgot what he said Dead in Christ in 16.....he may NOT think that these are the dead in the grave but rather those faithful people Quote
doug yowell Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 John, of course the angels will be coming with Him too but what about the multitudes that were raised with Christ at His resurrection and Moses who was raised from the dead and Enoch and Elijah who were translated. All these were taken to Heaven and they are coming back with Christ at His return. I believe these are the "saints" this passage is referring to in its primary application. sky And don't forget the 24 elders. Quote
Windsor Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 Yes, Sky....I believe that some few chosen are in Heaven now. I also think that some of those raise during Christ's death naturally died again. As Christ arose, He brought from the grave a multitude of captives. The earthquake at His death had rent open their graves, and when He arose, they came forth with Him. They were those who had been co-laborers with God, and who at the cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth. Now they were to be witnesses for Him who had raised them from the dead. During His ministry, Jesus had raised the dead to life. He had raised the son of the widow of Nain, and the ruler's daughter and Lazarus. But these were not clothed with immortality. After they were raised, they were still subject to death. But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow. These went into the city, and appeared unto many, declaring, Christ has risen from the dead, and we be risen with Him. Thus was immortalized the sacred truth of the resurrection. The risen saints bore witness to the truth of the words, "Thy dead men shall live, together with My dead body shall they arise." Their resurrection was an illustration of the fulfillment of the prophecy, "Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isa. 26:19. DoA 786 Quote Remember Adventists Online?
doug yowell Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 This radio preacher was trying to discredit our SDA theology. I'm sure his followers are easily swayed by his preaching without further study of the bible. What say you....??? This is typical of those who do not fully understand what their theology teaches compared to what the Bible is trying to convey.Local radio pastor is disingenuous in his presentation probably because he has been trained in his tunnel vision for so long that he feels no great need to study the question in depth. All of the answers given here are good ones and the Bible is crammed full of evidences of what really happens to human beings when they die.SDA's have to also be careful not to overlook those passages which do indicate that there are now living human beings in real bodies present with the Lord in heaven,together with the parallel passages that speak of the angels as being saints (though not from New Orleans). What the radio preacher left out of his presentation was his own Scriptural delemna for which he has no credible explanation. That being his belief that the dead in Christ are not really dead but rather living in spirit form,in disembodied bodies in heaven with Christ.And while he believes that he commonly presents the picture as if everything in heaven is just as it is on earth after the death of the righteous so his use of I Thes.3:13 gives his listeners the impression that those returning with Christ will be fully human and visible while omitting exactly what he teaches on I Cor.15. Here he will state that those in heaven who return with Jesus return in order to be (re??)united with a new heavenly body. This is the only purpose of the resurrection. We believe that I Cor.15 is probably the clearest passage God has left us regarding the state of the dead and the changes that the resurrection promises.Mr.Radio Pastor gives the believer little need or hope for the resurrection since believers are already "forever with the Lord".The Inspired apostle Paul is very clear about when he was to receive his crown of righteousness (II Tim.4:7,8),why the need to teach anything to the contrary? Quote
skyblue888 Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 Yes, Sky....I believe that some few chosen are in Heaven now. I also think that some of those raise during Christ's death naturally died again. This preacher man on radio is saying that EVERYONE good who dies is already in Heaven. That's where I strongly disagree with his teaching....very dangerous and misleading. The state of the dead is what's in question here...... Many will be deceived...!!! He's misreading and misunderstanding this: 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Key points: He mentioned the word "prevent" in 15....forgot what he said Dead in Christ in 16.....he may NOT think that these are the dead in the grave but rather those faithful people Yes, Sky....I believe that some few chosen are in Heaven now. I also think that some of those raise during Christ's death naturally died again. No, those who were raised when Christ raised from the grave did not die again. They were taken to Heaven. Are you sda? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
tribeofjudah Posted September 11, 2011 Author Posted September 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: tribeofjudah Yes, Sky....I believe that some few chosen are in Heaven now. I also think that some of those raise during Christ's death naturally died again. As Christ arose, He brought from the grave a multitude of captives. The earthquake at His death had rent open their graves, and when He arose, they came forth with Him. They were those who had been co-laborers with God, and who at the cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth. Now they were to be witnesses for Him who had raised them from the dead. During His ministry, Jesus had raised the dead to life. He had raised the son of the widow of Nain, and the ruler's daughter and Lazarus. But these were not clothed with immortality. After they were raised, they were still subject to death. But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow. These went into the city, and appeared unto many, declaring, Christ has risen from the dead, and we be risen with Him. Thus was immortalized the sacred truth of the resurrection. The risen saints bore witness to the truth of the words, "Thy dead men shall live, together with My dead body shall they arise." Their resurrection was an illustration of the fulfillment of the prophecy, "Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isa. 26:19. DoA 786 Nice...I should have known that from Desire of Ages.... good stuff Quote
tribeofjudah Posted September 11, 2011 Author Posted September 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: tribeofjudah Yes, Sky....I believe that some few chosen are in Heaven now. I also think that some of those raise during Christ's death naturally died again. This preacher man on radio is saying that EVERYONE good who dies is already in Heaven. That's where I strongly disagree with his teaching....very dangerous and misleading. The state of the dead is what's in question here...... Many will be deceived...!!! He's misreading and misunderstanding this: 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Key points: He mentioned the word "prevent" in 15....forgot what he said Dead in Christ in 16.....he may NOT think that these are the dead in the grave but rather those faithful people Yes, Sky....I believe that some few chosen are in Heaven now. I also think that some of those raise during Christ's death naturally died again. No, those who were raised when Christ raised from the grave did not die again. They were taken to Heaven. Are you sda? sky Sky....yes I am SDA and no I have not fully read the Desire of Ages (boohoo) on my bucket list. Quote
skyblue888 Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Okay your an sda. "During His ministry, Jesus had raised the dead to life. He had raised the son of the widow of Nain, and the ruler's daughter and Lazarus. But these were not clothed with immortality. After they were raised, they were still subject to death. But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them forth from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow." D.A.786. And these "saints" will be coming back with Him when He returns, including Moses, Elijah, Enoch. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
tribeofjudah Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 I saw your EG White response the first time you posted, thanks.... and suddenly remembered reading it somewhere other than DA. Maybe I heard a preacher man speak about it. Anywho....this radio preacher mustn't lead others astray with his bogus claims. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 13, 2011 Moderators Posted September 13, 2011 John, of course the angels will be coming with Him too but what about the multitudes that were raised with Christ at His resurrection and Moses who was raised from the dead and Enoch and Elijah who were translated. All these were taken to Heaven and they are coming back with Christ at His return. I believe these are the "saints" this passage is referring to in its primary application. I don't deny that, sky, but the word "saints" also refers to the angels. You're right, though, about all the humans who were raised and are now in heaven as witnesses of what is happening in the great controversy between Christ and Satan. We can be sure these will come with Jesus right along with the angels. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 I say it has more to do with them than the angels because these saints are the only ones who can be said to be kings, the kings of the east with whom Christ shall come. Remember? The drying up of the waters at the time of the sixth plague will prepare the way for the kings of the east to return. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
12tribes Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 Deuteronomy 33:2 (2) And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Jude 1:14 (14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Angels are also referred to as saints 2 Thessalonians 1:7 (7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
miz3 Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 Deuteronomy 33:2(2) And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Jude 1:14 (14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Angels are also referred to as saints 2 Thessalonians 1:7 (7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, Where in the Bible are "angels" referred to as "saints"? Quote
doug yowell Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: 12tribes Deuteronomy 33:2(2) And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Jude 1:14 (14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Angels are also referred to as saints 2 Thessalonians 1:7 (7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, Where in the Bible are "angels" referred to as "saints"? Can't it be easily inferred by the above Bible statements? Can't the terms be interchangable in context? Since it is so often directly stated that Christ will return with His angels (Matt. 13:41 25:31 Mark 13:26,27 ect...)why should it not follow that the saints most often referred to are, in fact, those angels? Particularly when we know that, except in a few rare cases of resurrection, there are no dead people in heaven (or are they alive there and only dead here?). Quote
skyblue888 Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 We know that angels are holy and that they will accompany Jesus at His return. Doug, it is not merely a few cases of resurrection for when Jesus was raised the Bible says that a multitude of captives were raised with him. It could have been in the thousands or hundreds of thousands. Plus in Revelation 16 it is said that the drying up of the waters upon which the first beast sits will prepare the way for the kings of the east to return. Who are these kings if not Jesus and those saints? The angels are coming back with Him too but they are not kings with Jesus but the "saints" who accompany Him are. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: 12tribes Deuteronomy 33:2(2) And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Jude 1:14 (14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Angels are also referred to as saints 2 Thessalonians 1:7 (7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, Where in the Bible are "angels" referred to as "saints"? Quote
miz3 Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 In the Bible the word "saints" always refers to God's human people. Thus 1Thessalonians chapter four is referring to God's human people ONLY. Thus, 1Thessalonians cannot possibly ever be referring to "angels". No Angels. Quote
doug yowell Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 In the Bible the word "saints" always refers to God's human people. Thus 1Thessalonians chapter four is referring to God's human people ONLY. Thus, 1Thessalonians cannot possibly ever be referring to "angels". No Angels. Wrong. The overwhelming number of Bible verses that describe Christ's 2nd coming refer to His return accompanied exclusively by the(holy)angels. There is not one mention anywhere that would exclude angels from the 2nd coming. Neither is there any specific reference to human beings being completely excluded from that wording. We've already suggested that some human beings could be legitimately included in that accompanyment just sayin that the weight of evidence when examining the specifics of what Jesus plainly said lies on the side of the angels.Check out the parallel descriptions of that event given by Jesus in my previous post. He only mentions the angels never the human beings. Quote
doug yowell Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 We know that angels are holy and that they will accompany Jesus at His return. Doug, it is not merely a few cases of resurrection for when Jesus was raised the Bible says that a multitude of captives were raised with him. It could have been in the thousands or hundreds of thousands. Plus in Revelation 16 it is said that the drying up of the waters upon which the first beast sits will prepare the way for the kings of the east to return. Who are these kings if not Jesus and those saints? The angels are coming back with Him too but they are not kings with Jesus but the "saints" who accompany Him are. sky Maybe, but the plainer passages of Scripture are the best interpreters of the symbolic ones not vice versa.Either way it's just a matter of exactly how many humans will be returning with all the angels. Quote
doug yowell Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 No it is not easily inferred. Deuteronomy 33:2 and Jude 1:14 is mistranslated because everyone knows that the exact translation is "not saints". The true translation is "holy ones". So how does the "correct" translation change the identification of who those "holy ones" are? Quote
12tribes Posted September 15, 2011 Posted September 15, 2011 Quote: miz3 No it is not easily inferred. Deuteronomy 33:2 and Jude 1:14 is mistranslated because everyone knows that the exact translation is "not saints". The true translation is "holy ones". Thus, there is no where in the Bible where the word "saints" and the word "angels" are interchangeable. Thus, the 1Thessalonians chapter 4 continues to be a problem. It is only a problem for those who do not believe all the Bible but, for those who do it is not a problem Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
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