Jesus Coming with all his saints....

[John317]

oh hahahaha

Good catch Doug.

I wrote, "before Sinai only two people had been taken to Heaven, Moses and Enoch."

Moses was alive at Sinai.

Just getting a bit senile here

hehehe

That's OK, sky. One time I wrote that it was Moses and Enoch who were with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. LOL

[John317]

God had commanded the Israelites not to communicate with the dead. Remember also that Saul had had the mediums and spiritists put to death. See 1 Sam. 28: 3, 9.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

And what does that tell you John?

It tells me that God was out to protect His people from any involvement in getting their information from demons. Remember that is how the Fall occurred: Eve got to talking with the Devil.

Just think: if people get their ideas from the Devil and his demons, thinking that they are really talking to their dead loved ones, they are open to any lie the Devil wants to tell them.

I personally know Catholics in Mexico-- actually my family-- who visit mediums in order to learn what will happen in the future or what important decision they ought to make. These mediums are called "brujos," pronounced (in northern Mexico) "bruhas." My wife used to go to them (before she learned the truth from the Bible) and her sister (who is a devoted Catholic) still sometimes goes to them. It is very common in Mexico. Also common in Cuba. The Catholic priests don't tell them not to go.

Here is what the Wikipedia says about "brujos":

Quote:

The brujos from Spain are either Christian or pagan-witches. The first group use folk magic and combine it with Catholic ritual and beliefs. This group includes priests and nuns. This group usually informs the person that they are performing a hex or, that they are responsible for the consequences of said spell. The latter group are not Christian and either practice secretly or veil their practices under Catholic ones. Non-Christian brujería from Spain is predominantly influenced by the ancients, either Greco-Roman, Celtic, Phoenician or a combination. This latter group does not tend to use folk magic, but instead practices what is commonly known to English people as traditional witchcraft.

With the large Hispanic emigration into North America, brujería has naturally gone there as well. The brujos of America are either traditionalists, combine brujería with vudú, or have reconstructed a modern style where one does not have to be of Spanish descent.

So essentially there are three distinct forms: ancient pre-Christian form, Christian or modern form, and a contemporary reconstruction.

This would not happen among Catholics if Catholics knew that the dead know NOTHING and that the Bible teaches they are actually communicating with fallen angels, or demons.

[John317]

It was because when people communicate with the "spirits of the dead," they are actually communicating with demons who claim to be the spirits of the departed dead.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

I'm sure that's possible John, I've heard it's possible from my own sources....

...Where do you get it's ALWAYS a demon?

...Are you suggesting it was a demon who was talking to Saul?

...After the Bible said it was Samuel?

Does the Bible ever suggest that it's a good thing to talk or communciate with "the spirits of the dead"?

Yes, Gustave, I am saying that Saul was talking with a fallen angel, perhaps with the Devil himself. Would that surprise you? Remember that God allowed the Devil to speak to Eve through a serpent. God had already cut off all communciation with Saul. So what does Saul do? He visits a woman he knows should be dead, a witch, a woman who Saul believes can force Samuel to talk with him. She was a woman who communciated with the spirits of the dead, something that God expressly condemns.

The Bible narrative is from the viewpoint of Saul. From Saul's perspective, the thing before him was Samuel.

Saul didn't just "think" it was Samuel; he had no doubt and therefore Saul "knew it was Samuel."

[John317]

1 Cor. 15:16-18

For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. [17] And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. [18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

"ARE NOT RAISED", that's a present tense John.

The NKJV says, "If the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen."

Then Paul adds that if Christ is not risen and if there is no resurrection, "then also those who have fallen asleep [died] in Christ have PERISHED."

Consider the significance of what Saint Paul has just said.

He is saying that apart from the resurrection, all the dead Christians have utterly perished. Their only hope of life is the resurrection. Notice that Paul does not say that the dead are already with Christ. If they are already with Christ, their life with Christ does not depend on the raising of the dead.

Paul could only have uttered these words if the dead do not go to their reward immediately after death. He says this because all the dead go to sleep in their graves and are awaiting the resurrection. That is our only "blessed hope." If this doesn't happen-- if Christ was never raised-- we are absolutely without hope. This is very strong evidence that Paul is not saying we go to be with Christ immediately after death. In fact, Paul tells us clearly in 1 Thessalonians 4: 17 how we go to be with the Lord: it happens at the second coming. He says, "And in this way we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." Paul doesn't say that you can comfort one another with the knowledge that you will go to heaven when you die.

What is the only hope of the believer? The BLESSED HOPE of the Second Coming and the resurrection of the righteous dead.

Titus 2:13

waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Gustave, my friend, what does Saint Paul say we are waiting for?

[John317]

The Bible says that the dead do not know anything, and since Samuel was dead, he didn't know anything. The Bible also says that the dead do not praise the Lord, but the living praise the Lord. Ecc. 9: 9; Ps. 115: 17.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

#1,

The Book you are quoting from ( Eccl ) also said there was NOTHING after death...

...Do you believe there is NOTHING after death?

...Do you know the author said He "didn't know" what happened after death?

Please quote the verse in Ecclesiastes that you believe teaches that there is nothing after death.

What the writer says is that there is nothing between death and the time we are judged.

Ecclesiastes 12: 13, 14 proves beyond any doubt the writer was aware that there is something after death:

Eccles. 12:13-14

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

What does the writer clearly say comes after death?

JUDGMENT---at which time we will be judged according to whether we obeyed God's commandments. He says we will have to give account even of every secret thing, i.e., our thoughts and our motives.

Did Jesus agree?

Yes, Jesus certainly did agree with the writer of Ecclesiastes, didn't He?

Gustave, based on what the Bible tells us about how God made humans, what do you find that shows we have something immortal about us-- something that is conscious and survives the death of the body?

[doug yowell]

...Who IS Christ bringing WITH Him?

Here's a logical question I'd like you to address. How can Jesus be bringing with Him those for whom He is coming to resurrect to be with Him? If they are already with Him why do they need to be resurrected in order to be with Him? Clearly the Scriptures state that "the dead in Christ WILL ARISE FIRST,...at the last trumpet...the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised..." Paul also states that he will receive his "crown of righteousness,which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me ON THAT Day, and not to me only but also to ALL who haved loved His appearing."

[Robert]

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Right, Christ comes and gets the saints and returns to heaven where His Father is at. So it's the trip back to heaven.

[ClubV12]

That trip takes 7 days, by the way. The speed of the travel is FASTER than the speed of light, obviously, and it STILL takes seven days. Heaven is WAY up there...

Where IS heaven? Where ever God's throne is. Which in due time will be this tiny speck of earth. Which will become the center of the universe.

[Lysimachus]

Thank you John317!

And keep telling it like it is! You are doing a profound job at answering the lies from Gustave that the dead know everything.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

I think Paul picked a good expression -- "Holy Ones", because at Christ's Second Coming, there will be more than just angels. The armies of heaven will consist of not only angels, but all those who went to heaven (in their glorified bodies) from the Old Testament time frame. See Matthew 27:52,53; Ephesians 4:8.

Christ brings WITH Him 'ALL' His Saints...

...When Christ is on His way here WHERE did He leave from?

...Who IS Christ bringing WITH Him?

[Lysimachus]

(cont.)

Quote:

Phil 1,20

According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to BE with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Strong's / "BE" - as in BE WITH Christ.

1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

So St Paul, who actually talked to God / performed Miracles.

Paul here is expressing his desire to be translated, as was Elijah and Enoch--meaning, going straight to heaven with a new glorified body. In other words, more than dying and then resurrecting, or staying on this earth, he desired to be translated. This did not happen though. But it is a desire that he had.

Quote:

Acts 19,11

And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul

You are claiming that St Paul thought it would be 'better' to not know anything between his death and the Resurrection THAN it would be for Paul to continue preaching the best news the world had ever heard, working special miracles, etc? Really?

Paul believed as the Pharisees did when it came to what happens to the person after they died...

...With ONE little exception - Jesus Christ.

...The Pharisees believed in immediate spiritual life after death - as did the general Jew.

Read above, and you will see my answer for this. But I will add that both the Pharisees and the Sadducees were wrong in their views on death. The Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection period. The Pharisees believed in a dichotomization of the soul. Do you know where they got this from? From the Greeks! It was never original Hebrew thought. They inherited these views from the Hellenistic influences during the Alexandrian time frame.

Quote:

God's saints who are in heaven are holy beings. Angels are holy beings. Hence, at Christ's Second Advent, all of them put together are "Holy Ones".

"ALL" would include those "witnesses" Hebrews speaks of...

...Those people who had LONG AGO died - those spirits OF just men.

...They are coming with Jesus too.

[Lysimachus]

Who says Moses was resurrected?

...Do you believe this took place prior to Jesus' Recurrection?

Yes, Moses was resurrected before Jesus' resurrection. The "First Fruits" has nothing to do with being the "first person" to resurrect. Jude 1:9 reveals that Michael the Archangel contended with the Devil over the "body" of Moses. One does not contend over a corpse that disintegrates. Satan wanted to keep Moses in the grave, and Christ wanted to raise him up. Moses appearing to Jesus along with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration reveals that Moses was resurrected taken to heaven. Ellen White, through inspiration, sheds these additional details--the TRUE prophet of God Whom you deny, and will pay in the day of judgment for willfully rejecting if you do not change.

Elijah is a type of those who will be translated without tasting death at the Second Advent. Moses is a type of those who will be resurrected. This event on the Mount of Transfiguration was a small miniature model of the Second Coming--which is why Jesus had said some would not taste death till they had seen the Kingdom of God come with power. This event on the mount foreshadowed the Second Advent.

[Gustave]

Here's a logical question I'd like you to address. How can Jesus be bringing with Him those for whom He is coming to resurrect to be with Him?

[Gustave]

That trip takes 7 days, by the way. The speed of the travel is FASTER than the speed of light, obviously, and it STILL takes seven days. Heaven is WAY up there...

And you came by that gnostic information where?

[BobRyan]

Hint - there is no solar system 7 light days away so travel to heaven in 7 days has to be faster than light.

[doug yowell]

Who says Moses was resurrected?

...Do you believe this took place prior to Jesus' Recurrection?

Yes, Moses was resurrected before Jesus' resurrection. The "First Fruits" has nothing to do with being the "first person" to resurrect. Jude 1:9 reveals that Michael the Archangel contended with the Devil over the "body" of Moses. One does not contend over a corpse that disintegrates. Satan wanted to keep Moses in the grave, and Christ wanted to raise him up. Moses appearing to Jesus along with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration reveals that Moses was resurrected taken to heaven.

We're still waiting for your answer to this question, G. How did Moses get from the grave to the Mount of Transfiguration? As Lys, points out again, Jude reveals that there was contention over MOses body, so who do you think won the battle for it, Michael or Satan? Also waiting for the answer to the question of where did the 24 elders come from? None of those elders were disembodied spirits.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Doug Yowell

If they are already with Him why do they need to be resurrected in order to be with Him?

They [ the spirits of the just ] don't...

...The whole point / what's to look foward to - IS the Resurrection of the body.

That's not the answer to the question. If THEY are already with Christ why do THEY need a body in order to be with Him? Either THEY are with HIm or THEY are not with or without a body.This is your argument,right?

[BobRyan]

I do not remotely, in any shape or form, interpret this passage to mean that Christ is bringing saints in Spirit form with Him at the Second Coming. The context is unequivocally clear that Paul is referring to the dead who are in their graves--sleeping. The antecedent to "which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him" is "Jesus died and rose again". When Jesus rose again, he brought many Old Testament saints with Him to heaven. So likewise, when Jesus comes back the Second Time, He will bring us to heaven WITH HIM. Not coming down, but going UP. However, it is also just as possible to interpret this expression as meaning that, like Christ rose up, so with him (who are in Christ), He will resurrect the sleeping saints

[doug yowell]

You are confounding the spirit of man with the glorified body of the Resurrection...

...It's understood one does NOT enter into eternal life WITHOUT the glorified body.

...And this takes place at the Resurrection of the body.

So the saints/disembodied spirits in heaven with Christ who accompany Him back to earth to pick up their glorified bodies are not yet into eternal life even though they've been in heaven for bunches of years? Are they still mortal until they get that awaited body?

[BobRyan]

In 2Cor 5:1-10 we are told that at the resurrection the saints receive a glorified body "eternal - made in the heavens".

in Christ,

Bob

[doug yowell]

Yes, the dead "IN CHRIST".....

...It ceased to be Abrahams Bosom AFTER Jesus.

...The people of Christ are IN Christ so that NOTHING separates them from Him.

This is what I see as the critical omission that so many make in attempting to explain eternal life."And this is the testimony:that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He that has the Son has life". The Eternal life that mankind is given is something that does not exist apart from God's Son.That life is in HIM not in us!Col.3:3,4 is how Paul describes what is meant by this.The dead in Christ are IN HIM not WITH HIM.

[Robert]

"AT" the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH all His saints.

The coming to earth or back to heaven? Keep in mind the Father is in heaven. Christ brings them back.

If not, then we need to look at the following translation:

Complete Jewish Bible

"so that he may give you the inner strength to be blameless, by reason of your holiness, when you stand before God our Father at the coming of our Lord Yeshua with all his angels."

This goes with the following:

Matt 24:30 Then will appear the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky; and then will all the nations of the earth lament, when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with great power and glory. 31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet-blast, and they will bring together His own People to Him from north, south, east and west--from one extremity of the world to the other

[Gustave]

I'm downtown Seattle in front of my wife's office on an iPad so my answer will have to wait lol. Not going to even try to do this on a pad.

[BobRyan]

Hint: Matt 27 - -many saints raised with Christ and in heaven now.

Why do you choose all these dead end rabbit trails?

in Christ,

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Bible says that Samuel would have no further communication with Saul after God rejected him as king.See 1 Sam. 15: 22-28, 35.

Saul had been deserted by God. God refused to communicate with him. See 1 Sam. 28: 6, 16-18.

That's why Samuel had 'attitude' when Saul finally got to talk to him...

...In a round about way he talked to him.

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you really believe, then, that God would send Samuel down to the earth to commmunicate with Saul?

No, no one was in heaven yet John, at that time it was Abrahams bosom...

...It was considered 'the pit'.

Hint: Your solution above places the demons in charge of the saints in the OT thus they can raise up Samuel at will. At the same time you want to claim that in Luke 16 - Abraham is sovereignly in charge of all dead saints pre-cross.

your view is self-conflicted in that you are not reading either 1Samuel or Luke 16 correctly.

Choose another option.

in Christ,

Bob