Jesus Coming with all his saints....

[John317]

I found something shocking among my old SDA books. It was written in the 1950s and says that Elijah died.

W.E. Read wrote: "We read, 'And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet.' 2 Chron. 21: 12. Here reference is made to a 'writing' that had been prepared by the prophet Elijah. But Elijah at this time was dead."

I couldn't believe my eyes the first time I saw it.

Imagine! How did such a statement get by the editors?!

It is page 100 of Read's book, The Bible, the Spirit of Prophecy, and the Church, Reveiw and Herald Pub., 1952.

[skyblue888]

I guess he meant that he was no longer living on the earth.

[John317]

Maybe so, but it sure sounds wrong. He should have said that Elijah had been translated.

[skyblue888]

That's right :)

[Gustave]

The questions Adventists should ask themselves is simply IF there is really a heavenly Jerusalem...

...IF they, SDA's, ( Christadelphians, WWCOG & JW's ) believe there is.

...A problem exists.

Hebrews 12,22

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, AND to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, AND to the spirits OF just men made perfect, AND to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

So,IF the spirits of Just men that have been made perfect are NOT in the heavenly Jerusalem...

...The Father, Son & Holy Spirit & innumerable company of angels must not be there either.

...For that matter there must not be a heavenly Jerusalem either?

[doug yowell]

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Consider carefully the time frame you cited.(hint:"Before Sinai...") [/quote']

:)

[Parade Orange]

maybe they got the name ELISHA confused with ELIJAH

i have done that

JOHN 317

[doug yowell]

Nobody has caught this??

[skyblue888]

oh hahahaha

Good catch Doug.

I wrote, "before Sinai only two people had been taken to Heaven, Moses and Enoch."

Moses was alive at Sinai.

Just getting a bit senile here

hehehe

[doug yowell]

Ok. Carry on.

[skyblue888]

Really? I can?

sky

[BobRyan]

The questions Adventists should ask themselves is simply IF there is really a heavenly Jerusalem...

...IF they, SDA's, ( Christadelphians, WWCOG & JW's ) believe there is.

...A problem exists.

Hebrews 12,22

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, AND to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, AND to the spirits OF just men made perfect, AND to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

So,IF the spirits of Just men that have been made perfect are NOT in the heavenly Jerusalem...

Hint: Matt 27 - -many saints raised with Christ and in heaven now.

Why do you choose all these dead end rabbit trails?

in Christ,

Bob

[Gustave]

Hint: Matt 27 - -many saints raised with Christ and in heaven now.

Why do you choose all these dead end rabbit trails?

in Christ,

Saint Thomas in Summa Theologica does a good job in answering your question...

...The answer systematizes Scripture.

...Again, the text says "ALL" Jesus' Saints.

...All means "all".

St. Thomas Aquinas

I answer that, Resurrection is a restoring from death to life. Now a man is snatched from death in two ways: first of all, from actual death, so that he begins in any way to live anew after being actually dead: in another way, so that he is not only rescued from death, but from the necessity, nay more, from the possibility of dying again. Such is a true and perfect resurrection, because so long as a man lives, subject to the necessity of dying, death has dominion over him in a measure, according to Romans 8:10: "The body indeed is dead because of sin." Furthermore, what has the possibility of existence, is said to exist in some respect, that is, in potentiality. Thus it is evident that the resurrection, whereby one is rescued from actual death only, is but an imperfect one.

Consequently, speaking of perfect resurrection, Christ is the first of them who rise, because by rising He was the first to attain life utterly immortal, according to Romans 6:9: "Christ rising from the dead dieth now no more." But by an imperfect resurrection, some others have risen before Christ, so as to be a kind of figure of His Resurrection.

And thus the answer to the first objection is clear: because both those raised from the dead in the old Testament, and those raised by Christ, so returned to life that they had to die again.

There are two opinions regarding them who rose with Christ. Some hold that they rose to life so as to die no more, because it would be a greater torment for them to die a second time than not to rise at all. According to this view, as Jerome observes on Matthew 27:52-53, we must understand that "they had not risen before our Lord rose." Hence the Evangelist says that "coming out of the tombs after His Resurrection, they came into the holy city, and appeared to many." But Augustine (Ep. ad Evod. clxiv) while giving this opinion, says: "I know that it appears some, that by the death of Christ the Lord the same resurrection was bestowed upon the righteous as is promised to us in the end; and if they slept not again by laying aside their bodies, it remains to be seen how Christ can be understood to be 'the first-born of the dead,' if so many preceded Him unto that resurrection. Now if reply be made that this is said by anticipation, so that the monuments be understood to have been opened by the earthquake while Christ was still hanging on the cross, but that the bodies of the just did not rise then but after He had risen, the difficulty still arises--how is it that Peter asserts that it was predicted not of David but of Christ, that His body would not see corruption, since David's tomb was in their midst; and thus he did not convince them, if David's body was no longer there; for even if he had risen soon after his death, and his flesh had not seen corruption, his tomb might nevertheless remain. Now it seems hard that David from whose seed Christ is descended, was not in that rising of the just, if an eternal rising was conferred upon them. Also that saying in the Epistle to the Hebrews (11:40) regarding the ancient just would be hard to explain, 'that they should not be perfected without us,' if they were already established in that incorruption of the resurrection which is promised at the end when we shall be made perfect": so that Augustine would seem to think that they rose to die again. In this sense Jerome also in commenting on Matthew (27:52,53) says: "As Lazarus rose, so also many of the bodies of the saints rose, that they might bear witness to the risen Christ." Nevertheless in a sermon for the Assumption [Ep. ix ad Paul. et Eustoch.; among the supposititious works ascribed to St. Jerome] he seems to leave the matter doubtful. But Augustine's reasons seem to be much more cogent.

What do you think of that?

[doug yowell]

I, for one, found it fascinating. Well reasoned, echoing the conclusions of other great thinkers,and consistent in it's use of the evidence that TA chose to employ. However, I think he didn't cover all the possibilities.

For instance he doesn't address the appearance of Moses at Christ's transfiguration.If resurrections previous to Christ's must always be of the imperfect kind, subject to subsequent death, than how is Moses there? And where did the 24 elders who sit around the throne of God come from? Also his argument about David repose in his tomb after the ascension of Jesus, is a stated assumption on who God should or shouldn't choose to accompany Him back to heaven. Does David deserve the final resurrection rather than John the Baptist, or Puah, or Job? Maybe. Maybe not.

[Gustave]

I, for one, found it fascinating. Well reasoned, echoing the conclusions of other great thinkers,and consistent in it's use of the evidence that TA chose to employ. However, I think he didn't cover all the possibilities.

For instance he doesn't address the appearance of Moses at Christ's transfiguration.If resurrections previous to Christ's must always be of the imperfect kind, subject to subsequent death, than how is Moses there? And where did the 24 elders who sit around the throne of God come from? Also his argument about David repose in his tomb after the ascension of Jesus, is a stated assumption on who God should or shouldn't choose to accompany Him back to heaven. Does David deserve the final resurrection rather than John the Baptist, or Puah, or Job? Maybe. Maybe not.

Who says Moses was resurrected?

...Do you believe this took place prior to Jesus' Recurrection?

Feel free to try the following Bible Study offered "for free"...

...I know of NONE that are better.

...Installs right on your PC and has all the commentary along with the Scriptures.

http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerus/index_eng.html

[doug yowell]

Who says Moses was resurrected?

...Do you believe this took place prior to Jesus' Recurrection?

Deut. 34 details the death of Moses. Matt.17 Mark 9 Luke 9 record the details of the "transfigured" Jesus meeting with Elijah who never died and Moses who had,according to Scripture,died.I believe that Moses was resurrected and that Jude 9 evidences that fact. Otherwise, how did Moses get together with the living Elijah for the meeting? What else makes any sense.

[Lysimachus]

The Greek for "Saints" is definitely also "Holy Ones". Not just the Hebrew version of Saints.

I think Paul picked a good expression -- "Holy Ones", because at Christ's Second Coming, there will be more than just angels. The armies of heaven will consist of not only angels, but all those who went to heaven (in their glorified bodies) from the Old Testament time frame. See Matthew 27:52,53; Ephesians 4:8.

God's saints who are in heaven are holy beings. Angels are holy beings. Hence, at Christ's Second Advent, all of them put together are "Holy Ones".

It becomes glaringly obvious just how despicable the evangelical world makes themselves out to be after observing that they cannot comprehend this simple reality---but would rather use this as "proof" for 1. That souls go splitting off into heaven as separate conscientious ghosts apart from their body at death, and 2. To try and prove a pre-tribulation rapture, that all those saints that come back with Christ are saints that were raptured prior to the tribulation.

Such foolishness. May God wake them up before its too late.

[John317]

Welcome back to the Forum, Lysimachus.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Who says Moses was resurrected?

...Do you believe this took place prior to Jesus' Recurrection?

Deut. 34 details the death of Moses. Matt.17 Mark 9 Luke 9 record the details of the "transfigured" Jesus meeting with Elijah who never died and Moses who had,according to Scripture,died.I believe that Moses was resurrected and that Jude 9 evidences that fact. Otherwise, how did Moses get together with the living Elijah for the meeting? What else makes any sense.

How did Samuel have a discussion with Saul after Samuel died...

...And rebuke Saul for not doing as the Lord instructed?

[Gustave]

The Greek for "Saints" is definitely also "Holy Ones". Not just the Hebrew version of Saints.

[John317]

How did Samuel have a discussion with Saul after Samuel died...

...And rebuke Saul for not doing as the Lord instructed?

The Bible says that Samuel would have no further communication with Saul after God rejected him as king.See 1 Sam. 15: 22-28, 35.

Saul had been deserted by God. God refused to communicate with him. See 1 Sam. 28: 6, 16-18.

Do you really believe, then, that God would send Samuel down to the earth to commmunicate with Saul?

God had commanded the Israelites not to communicate with the dead. Remember also that Saul had had the mediums and spiritists put to death. See 1 Sam. 28: 3, 9.

Why did God command the Isrealites to put mediums and spiritists to death? See Ex. 22: 18.

It was because when people communicate with the "spirits of the dead," they are actually communicating with demons who claim to be the spirits of the departed dead.

Therefore, we have good Bible reason to know that it wasn't Samuel but an evil spirit pretending to be Samuel.

The Bible says that the dead do not know anything, and since Samuel was dead, he didn't know anything. The Bible also says that the dead do not praise the Lord, but the living praise the Lord. Ecc. 9: 9; Ps. 115: 17.

Again, the Bible teaches that the dead do not know anything. If people realize this, they are protected against believing in the words of the demons who trick people into thinking the dead are alive and conscious and able to communicate with the living.

There's not a single verse in the Bible which says that humans have an immortal soul or spirit inside the body. Man has nothing in him that continues to live and be conscious after the death of the body. Ps. 146: 4.

Psalm 146:4

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalm 6:5

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 115:17

The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Isaiah 26:19

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise.

You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!

For your dew is a dew of light,

and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Psalm 17:15

As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness;

when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness.

Daniel 12:2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Cor. 15:16-18

For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. [17] And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. [18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

NOTE: Our only hope is the blessed hope-- the resurrection at the second coming of Christ. This would not be the case if all the dead were really alive & conscious.

1 Thes. 4:16

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

[John317]

...If Jesus and innumerable angels are present at this 'GENERAL assembly' and 'know something'...

...Why is it so difficult for you to accept that the spirits OF just MEN are also there.

...And "know something"?

....Paul knew exactly what would happen when He died...

...He leaves NO escape route for the soul sleeping rubrics of Adventism.

...."ALL" would include those "witnesses" Hebrews speaks of...

...Those people who had LONG AGO died - those spirits OF just men.

...They are coming with Jesus too.

Do you believe, then, that Samuel is with Jesus now and that Samuel was with God in heaven immediately after he died?

[Gustave]

The Bible says that Samuel would have no further communication with Saul after God rejected him as king.See 1 Sam. 15: 22-28, 35.

Saul had been deserted by God. God refused to communicate with him. See 1 Sam. 28: 6, 16-18.

[John317]

The Bible says that Samuel would have no further communication with Saul after God rejected him as king.See 1 Sam. 15: 22-28, 35.

Saul had been deserted by God. God refused to communicate with him. See 1 Sam. 28: 6, 16-18.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

That's why Samuel had 'attitude' when Saul finally got to talk to him...

...In a round about way he talked to him.

Do you believe, then, that dead people are able to come to this earth and talk to you or to anyone else?

Considering that God refused to communicate with Saul, why would God's prophet talk to Saul after the prophet was dead when he wouldn't do it when he was alive?

What was Samuel's [the shade's] attitude? Are you referring to Samuel's asking Saul why Saul disturbed him (v. 15)?

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you really believe, then, that God would send Samuel down to the earth to commmunicate with Saul?

Originally Posted By: Gustave

No, no one was in heaven yet John, at that time it was Abrahams bosom...

...It was considered 'the pit'.

OK, so you are saying that Samuel was in "Abraham's bosom". Can you show from the Bible that Abraham's bosom is (or was) "the pit"?

When do you believe the dead went to heaven? Can you please show your answer from the Bible?