Jesus Coming with all his saints....

[BobRyan]

I'm sure that's possible John, I've heard it's possible from my own sources....

...Where do you get it's ALWAYS a demon?

...Are you suggesting it was a demon who was talking to Saul?

...After the Bible said it was Samuel?

The "Bible" says that "God became Saul's enemy" because he inquired of a demon when he went to the medium - thus to the servant of satan - servant of a demon to "inquired of IT". 1Chron 10:13

IT was a demon.

But the fact that your own argument causes you to go to a clear example of a seance condemned by God Himself - and try to find a way to make it "legit" - should be a clue to the unbiased objective reader that you are way off track on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

There's not a single verse in the Bible which says that humans have an immortal soul or spirit inside the body. Man has nothing in him that continues to live and be conscious after the death of the body. Ps. 146: 4.

[BobRyan]

Psalm 146:4

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalm 6:5

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 115:17

The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Isaiah 26:19

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise.

You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!

For your dew is a dew of light,

and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Psalm 17:15

As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness;

when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness.

Daniel 12:2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Cor. 15:16-18

For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. [17] And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. [18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

[Gustave]

The "Bible" says that "God became Saul's enemy" because he inquired of a demon when he went to the medium - thus to the servant of satan - servant of a demon to "inquired of IT". 1Chron 10:13

IT was a demon.

But the fact that your own argument causes you to go to a clear example of a seance condemned by God Himself - and try to find a way to make it "legit" - should be a clue to the unbiased objective reader that you are way off track on this one.

That's not at all what the text says, Bob...

...Let's look at it again.

1 Chron 10,13

So Saul died for his iniquities, because he transgressed the commandment of the Lord, which he had commanded, and kept it not: and moreover (ALSO) consulted also a witch, And trusted not in the Lord: therefore he slew him, and transferred his kingdom to David the son of Isai.

RSVCE

So Saul died for his unfaithfulness; he was unfaithful to the LORD in that he did not keep the command of the LORD, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance, and did not seek guidance from the LORD. Therefore the LORD slew him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

Yes Bob, when someone goes to a witch who is a medium...

...It necessitates the witch is using a power other than God to do what she does.

...i.e. "asking counsel of ONE WHO had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it".

For the record I do not believe that witches can call up dead people willy nilly....

...In this case God allowed it - this is reflected by the shock of the witch.

Verse 11

Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul

Something is telling me that this witch had witnessed her share of evil spirits....

...And had seen things that would make us die of fright.

...This witch freaked when she saw 'Samuel'.

...I.E. it WASN'T her "familiar" spirit.

A fallen angel rebuking someone for NOT following the word of God???

...Does this seriously sound logical to you?

I'm not in support of occult stuff Bob, not at all...

...The relevant question here is WHAT was Samuel doing talking to Saul after Samuel was dead.

...The text says it was Samuel & PARALIPOMENON 10,13 does not repudiate that fact, at all.

[Lysimachus]

My apologies for my limited time in being able to post here. There is so much I would love to comment on, but am unable to at the present.

For those of you who are interested in digging for the best possible sources concerning the estate of men after death, I would advise reading Dr. LeRoy Froom's 2,476 page 2-volume set: Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers.

If you don't have the EGW CD-Rom, you can read them for free in the link above, but first be sure to download the free DJVU Browswer Plugin in order to successfully view and read the books online.

I doubt Gustave has wrestled with this material which has been so well established over 50 years ago. Let's not even mention the latest works of Edward William Fudge in his "The Fire That Consumes" masterpiece --- this man is not even a Seventh-Day Adventist! And many evangelicals are being forced to accept his views which are nearly identical to Adventist.

[Lysimachus]

Basically, Gustave is expressing ideology that stems straight from the mouth of the hermetic dragon. But he refuses to see it. It's tantamount to bashing your head against a brick wall, because I can already see like him have way too much theological pride. Such theological pride puts one in worst position in the eyes of God than the avowed unbeliever.

[Lysimachus]

Let's remember Gustave that "Samuel" came up from below the ground, while Ecclesiastes 12:7 and 3:18-21 reveals, unequivocally, that the spirit of man goes "upward", back to God who gave it. What befalls men is no different from what befalls beasts at death. That's the bottomline.

I would invite you, Gustave, to give up your perfidious doctrine of the immortality of the soul which has its inspiration straight from hermetic dragon.

It is this doctrine that Satan will use in the last day to manifest his final delusion and spiritualistic work to deceive the masses. Only those who believe that the dead know absolutely nothing after death will be shielded from the great masterful delusion Satan is soon to exercise at the end of the world. And if you don't change, you will be one of them who will join hands with Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet.

There are 3 primary ideological religious powers contending for the mastery in this world, and only one of them will win:

1. Catholicism (The Beast)

2. Dispensationalism (The False Prophet)

3. Adventism (The Sun-Clothed Woman)

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul finds its inspiration in both Catholicism and fallen Protestantism. It is up to you if you wish to decide to join hands with the two powers which will find their place in the Lake of Fire.

[Gustave]

Again you are simply making stuff up - the Bible says "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE" 2Tim 3:16 - your response seems to be "oh not when it contradicts my man-made traditions".

[Gustave]

Basically, Gustave is expressing ideology that stems straight from the mouth of the hermetic dragon. But he refuses to see it. It's tantamount to bashing your head against a brick wall, because I can already see like him have way too much theological pride. Such theological pride puts one in worst position in the eyes of God than the avowed unbeliever

[Gustave]

We're still waiting for your answer to this question, G. How did Moses get from the grave to the Mount of Transfiguration? As Lys, points out again, Jude reveals that there was contention over MOses body, so who do you think won the battle for it, Michael or Satan? Also waiting for the answer to the question of where did the 24 elders come from? None of those elders were disembodied spirits

How did Moses get there?

...God had him show up there.

Read Hebrews 11 ( the whole Chapter ), it mentions Enoch, Moses and many others...

...In verses 39 & 40 it says the aforementioned did NOT recieve "the promise".

Verse 39

And these ALL, having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should NOT be made perfect

John 3,13

No one has ever gone into heaven EXCEPT the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

[John317]

...Read Hebrews 11 ( the whole Chapter ), it mentions Enoch, Moses and many others...

...In verses 39 & 40 it says the aforementioned did NOT recieve "the promise".

Verse 39

And these ALL, having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should NOT be made perfect

Verse 39 says that the people mentioned did not receive "the promise" (i.e., inherit the earth) but that they will be made perfect together--- at the second coming of Christ. It will indeed be "better" that way. Imagine the united, simultaneous rejoicing of all of those people!

God sure has something great in store for us. Let's be certain we don't miss it. It would be a great disappointment to Christ. He paid His life's blood for each of us.

Quote:

Hebrews 11:9-16

By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. [10] For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. [11] By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. [12] Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.

[13] These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. [14] For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. [15] If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. [16] But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

[John317]

....Would you agree that the statement; 'the dead know nothing' in Ecclesiastes - is an absolute affirmation? What do you do with the following affirmationS?

Eccles 9,5

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; NEITHER have they ANY MORE a portion FOR EVER in ANY THING that is done under the sun.

There is nothing wrong with that passage of Scripture, when it is understood along with everything else the writer said.

Dead people-- unless raised by Christ, like Lazarus was-- don't ever again have a portion in any thing that is done under the sun. They don't return to the earth. They stay in the grave until Christ returns or until the Great White Throne Judgment.

You have to read the passage in the context of the entire book, and at the end of the book, the writer makes clear that there is a judgment. Obviously a judgment implies that the dead will live again. See Ecc. 12: 13, 14.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, AND drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

What is wrong with this? Are you assuming it means to get drunk or drink alcohol?

The verse neither mentions this nor implies it. "Wine" is not necessarily fermented. God wants us to enjoy life, including the fruit of the vine.

[John317]

Adventism as the sun clothed woman!

The sun clothed woman was the sign in the heavens of the Blessed Trinity and Mary...

The sun-clothed woman of Rev. 12 is neither Adventism nor the Trinity nor Mary.

The symbol is not of a literal woman. In the Bible, a pure woman represents a pure church, and an impure woman represents a fallen, corrupt church.

In this case, the church of God-- which includes both the Jews and the Gentiles, who follow God-- gave birth to the Messiah. He came out of the Jewish race, being descended from Abraham and David.

[John317]

Let's remember Gustave that "Samuel" came up from below the ground' date=' while Ecclesiastes 12:7 and 3:18-21 reveals, unequivocally, that the spirit of man goes "upward", back to God who gave it. What befalls men is no different from what befalls beasts at death. That's the bottomline.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Ecclesiastes says no one knows if the soul of man goes up and the soul of beasts goes down.

Eccl 3,19

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Not knowing what direction the soul of man goes upon death...

...Hardly reconciles with the spirit of man unequviocally going up now does it.

That's a literary device. It is simply saying that the same thing happens to both man and beast. There's no difference as far as the biological process is concerned when it comes to how people and animals die.

If it wasn't for the resurrection, humans and animals would be on a totally equal footing when it comes to their death. That is, both the animals and mankind would stay forever in the grave if it weren't for Christ.

Here's the kicker, Gustave:

Apart from Christ's work on the cross and His resurrection, we humans would die the same as a monkey or a dog.

What makes all the difference? Christ's death and resurrection!!

That is what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 15: 12-28--

Quote:

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? [13'] But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. [14] And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. [15] We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. [16] For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. [17] And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. [18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. [19] If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

[20] But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [21] For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. [24] Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. [25] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [26] The last enemy to be destroyed is death. [27] For " God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. [28] When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

We live only because Christ lives. In fact, there is Life only in Christ. Apart from Him there is only death, an endless ceasing to be. See Obadiah 16.

1 John 5:11-12

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

[BobRyan]

The "Bible" says that "God became Saul's enemy" because he inquired of a demon when he went to the medium - thus to the servant of satan - servant of a demon to "inquired of IT". 1Chron 10:13

IT was a demon.

But the fact that your own argument causes you to go to a clear example of a seance condemned by God Himself - and try to find a way to make it "legit" - should be a clue to the unbiased objective reader that you are way off track on this one.

[BobRyan]

Again you are simply making stuff up - the Bible says "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE" 2Tim 3:16 - your response seems to be "oh not when it contradicts my man-made traditions".

While Ecclesiastes makes not mention of the millennium or of the tribulation, or of the New Heavens - it does mention the future after death saying "God will bring every deed into judgment".

[doug yowell]

That's not at all what the text says, Bob...

...Let's look at it again.

"And the king said to her...what do YOU see? And the woman said to Saul, I saw a SPIRIT ascending out of the earth. So he said to her,What is his FORM? and she said, An OLD MAN is COMING UP,AND HE IS COVERED with a MANTLE.And Saul PERCEIVED that it was Samuel."

G, You have stated that when one (righteous)dies (BC) they (their spirit)leave their body in the grave and go directly to (do not collect $200)Abraham's bosom. THis means that(according to your read) a spirit has no body. How does this account of Samuel and the account of Lazarus/Rich Man validate that assertion? As in Luke 16 the spirit here as seen by the woman,not Saul, seems to contradict that belief.Here are some questions that naturally arise if your assertions are true:

1)How can a person see someone who has no body?

2)Why does someone who has no body need to wear a cloak?

3)How can a person who has no body be seen as old?

4)Why is a righteous spirit still old?

5)Why is a righteous spirit still existing underground?

6)Was Abraham's bosom a place located under the earth?

7)Why did Saul believe that which he did not see himself?

8) If Abraham was right in his comments to the rich man in Luke 16 "If they don't believe Moses...neither will they believe though one rose from the dead" why did God ignore His own advice in this case?

[Gustave]

Verse 39 says that the people mentioned did not receive "the promise" (i.e., inherit the earth) but that they will be made perfect together--- at the second coming of Christ. It will indeed be "better" that way. Imagine the united, simultaneous rejoicing of all of those people!

Verse 13 says something different John.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Strangers and Pilgrims "ON THE EARTH", desire a better country that happens to be heavenly...

...I'm thinking in this context this Scripture means what I told you it did.

...I do however understand why you are so feverish to push it in another direction.

[skyblue888]

keep in mind:

"In this time evil angels in the form of men will talk with those who know the truth. They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God." E.G. White.

sky

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

Something is telling me that this witch had witnessed her share of evil spirits....

...And had seen things that would make us die of fright.

...This witch freaked when she saw 'Samuel'.

...I.E. it WASN'T her "familiar" spirit.

1. At no point in the story is the "Familiar spirit" statement ever doubted.

2. At no point does the story say the witch was afraid of Samuel RATHER it was disclosure to the witch that her "guest" was in fact the very King that declared the DEATH DECREE for anyone doing what she just did in front of the king - that obviously was a source of fear.

Satan worked with his servant the witch - in the same way as he works today - trying to get people to fear and tremble as would a roaring lion. He inspired the witch with fear and he caused Saul to despair and to fear - to give up all hope.

This is the work and role of demons.

How transparent then for all to see - those who cling to this work of satan as if it demonstrates their belief in devils having power over saints when the saints die.

in Christ,

Bob

Tell it like it is Bob. Excellent evaluation of the texts in question. This should spell the death knell on Gustave's theory, but I doubt he will allow us to be any instruments to help put him in his place.

I don't believe for one word that deep down inside he wants to believe that the dead are truly dead. He claims to be forced "by the Word of God" to believe such, yet when we prove him wrong, he does not change. Goes to reveal what his desire really is.

He likes to dissect the texts so much that he seems to miss the general messages of the passages in question.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Adventism as the sun clothed woman!

The sun clothed woman was the sign in the heavens of the Blessed Trinity and Mary...

The sun-clothed woman of Rev. 12 is neither Adventism nor the Trinity nor Mary.

The symbol is not of a literal woman. In the Bible, a pure woman represents a pure church, and an impure woman represents a fallen, corrupt church.

In this case, the church of God-- which includes both the Jews and the Gentiles, who follow God-- gave birth to the Messiah. He came out of the Jewish race, being descended from Abraham and David.

You would be correct John. However, do know that when I said "Adventism", I was utilizing the term loosely this time to represent God's people in general--a pure Church. I believe that all who are pure in heart are considered "Adventist" in God's eyes, because they have a longing expectation to see Jesus come back.

I'm referring to a conflict of ideologies here, not denominations per-say. Catholicism, however, would be restricted to its denomination.

[jasd]

>>For those of you who are interested in digging for the best possible sources concerning the estate of men after death, I would advise reading Dr. LeRoy Froom's 2,476 page 2-volume set:<<

The same Dr. LeRoy Froom mentioned in the quote below?

“These facts are freely admitted by Jewish scholars. Rabbi

Louis Finklestein of the Jewish Theological Seminary of

America, was selected by the Kehillas (Jewish Communities)

of the World as one of the 120 top Jews who best

represented ‘a lamp of Judaism’ to the world. In a letter to

Dr. L. E. Froom, dated Feb. 20, 1939, Finklestein readily

admitted, ‘The present Jewish calendar was fixed in the

fourth century.’ Maimonides and most other Jewish

chronologers agree that the modern Jewish calendar is

based upon the ‘mean motions of the sun and moon, the true

[calendar] having been set aside.’ ”

What!?—the true/OT calendar whereby one fixes the feasts - whereby, in turn, one fixes the Seventh-day Sabbaths?--has been set aside!? Impossible

How did Dr Froom advise his constituents re this matter?

It is probably wisest to, in the main, recourse to Holy Writ, yes?

>>I can already see like him have way too much theological pride.<<

Him?

Say what!? --Pogo

“O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us

To see oursels as ithers see us"

Anyway, one must appreciate the fact that Gustave proffers his views without, ummm, hyperbole, yes?

>>1. Catholicism (The Beast)

2. Dispensationalism (The False Prophet)

3. Adventism (The Sun-Clothed Woman)<<

That’s precious. From one of thems thar suggestiful books, eh? :-)

>>The doctrine of the immortality of the soul finds its inspiration in both Catholicism and fallen Protestantism.<<

Stipulating that the ‘tent/tabernacle’ of human flesh together with the ‘breath’ is the ‘soul’ – what then of the spirit?

Whither goest it?

Have I missed anyone’s parsing of John 11:26 on this thread?

Jn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

“liveth and believeth” in Jesus Christ – that’s you, that’s me – a breath away from eternity.

(remember, the spirit/energy field is measurable – moreover, when we’re within three feet of one another – we commingle essences – mebbe, that’s a reason for loving rather than hating)

Of course, I need not remind that Jesus Christ used the emphatic double negative – shall not never – in John 11:26.

You think that He was, mebbe, emphasizing a point?—after all, the careful student of Writ may forget that though the OT promised a Messiah/Christ – Jesus Christ was the personified Redeemer.

JESUS CHRIST HAPPENED!!

Forget the OT gobbly-gook. It no longer obtains. Jesus Christ happened.

It is impossible to miss – that for our erudition, He emphatically stated the condition of those who New Testamentally ‘sleep’ in Him. Let’s not torture the Biblical meanings of ‘sleep’ (what’s that?—suspended animation?—a cryogenicis journey?—soul hibernation?)– that we might withstand the very words of Jesus Christ.

The believer in Jesus Christ ‘disrobes’ his earthly tabernacle/tent that he may be with the LORD – per St Paul. He chrysalphases ;-)

One need only be advised by Jesus Christ Gd – and not by quantum constructs.

Keep it simple, guys – from Jesus Christ’s lips to yours

Oh, re those who ‘died’ before Jesus Christ happened:

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

“yet shall he live” – at the Parousian resurrection...

[jasd]

>>And the text said that God "would not ALLOW" any prophet to communicate with Saul.

Saul was trying to "get around" that firm Word from God - by going to demons to see if they might help where GOD was saying "NO".<<

Pity, so many follow after the example of Saul - attempting to “get around” that “firm Word of Gd” re book of Daniel - that they may go on and on with their conceit.

>>It is those in the RCC (at least some of them) who seem to go along with that idea.<<

That is the least lovely aspect of SDAism – the incessant wrong-headed allegations finding their proscriptive in the commandment “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour”.

[jasd]

Re Moses:

It may be that Gd had/has a mission that required or requires the services of Moses – and had Michael the Archangel remove the body of Moses nearer to Jerusalem that he might be ‘raised’ together with Jesus Christ – as there is no indication that the ‘graves were opened near and far’ at the time of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion – but rather only those in or near the City Jerusalem.

There is no indication that the ‘graves were opened even unto Machpelah’ – as those who argue for soul-sleep are often wont to especially note.

Moreover, re the matter of Moses upon the Mount of Transfiguration: Jesus Christ said that what was seen was a vision.

[doug yowell]

Re Moses:

Moreover, re the matter of Moses upon the Mount of Transfiguration: Jesus Christ said that what was seen was a vision.

Where could I find that in the Bible?