Jesus Coming with all his saints....

[doug yowell]

Thus, there is no where in the Bible where the word "saints" and the word "angels" are interchangeable.

I Thes. 4:16 states "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel...and the dead in Christ will rise first."

Mark 8:38 descibes it this way, "...the Son of Man (also will be ashamed of him) when He comes in the glory of HIs Father with THE HOLY ANGELS."

Matt.13:38-50 "...so it will be at the end of the age.The angels will come forth,separate the wicked from among the just..."

Matt 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory,and all the holy angels with Him..."

Luke 13:26,27 "Then they will see the son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect..."

So when Jude quotes Enoch as saying, "Behold the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints"...why is it so great a leap to conclude that those "saints" are not the same beings as Jesus previously described as angels? I think it's pretty reasonable.

[doug yowell]

Thus, the 1Thessalonians chapter 4 continues to be a problem.

Can you identify what you see the problem to be? (Other than the wording of "bring with Him"?)

[Gerr]

Thus, there is no where in the Bible where the word "saints" and the word "angels" are interchangeable.

Thus, the 1Thessalonians chapter 4 continues to be a problem.

iho hagios in 1 Thes 3:13 is translated holy onesin the NIV. Angels are also referred to as ho hagios angelos.

Since the dead don't know anything, and David, a saint, has not gone up there, and the Bible plainly points out that Jesus is coming back with a cloud of angels & the resurrected saints, the ho hagios = holy ones can only mean the angels and the resurrected saints that have gone on to heaven.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

In the Bible the word "saints" always refers to God's human people. Thus 1Thessalonians chapter four is referring to God's human people ONLY.

Thus, 1Thessalonians cannot possibly ever be referring to "angels". No Angels.

Wrong. The overwhelming number of Bible verses that describe Christ's 2nd coming refer to His return accompanied exclusively by the(holy)angels. There is not one mention anywhere that would exclude angels from the 2nd coming. Neither is there any specific reference to human beings being completely excluded from that wording. We've already suggested that some human beings could be legitimately included in that accompanyment just sayin that the weight of evidence when examining the specifics of what Jesus plainly said lies on the side of the angels.Check out the parallel descriptions of that event given by Jesus in my previous post. He only mentions the angels never the human beings.

Doug angels are never ever referred to as "saints".

The word "saints" means humans.

I never ever said that angels were not in the returning party. However, 1Thessalonians chapter four cannot refer to "angels" because "angels" are never referred to in the Bible as "saints".

No one is excluding angels.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Thus, there is no where in the Bible where the word "saints" and the word "angels" are interchangeable.

I Thes. 4:16 states "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel...and the dead in Christ will rise first."

Mark 8:38 descibes it this way, "...the Son of Man (also will be ashamed of him) when He comes in the glory of HIs Father with THE HOLY ANGELS."

Matt.13:38-50 "...so it will be at the end of the age.The angels will come forth,separate the wicked from among the just..."

Matt 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory,and all the holy angels with Him..."

Luke 13:26,27 "Then they will see the son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect..."

So when Jude quotes Enoch as saying, "Behold the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints"...why is it so great a leap to conclude that those "saints" are not the same beings as Jesus previously described as angels? I think it's pretty reasonable.

I am not saying they are not angels. When the correct word "holy ones" is used the text probably is referring to "angels". My point only is that in those texts the word "saints" is wrong. These texts should never have the word "saints" as the translation. The only correct way to translate Deut. and Jude is to translate it is as "holy ones". When you do that you can correctly infer this means "angels".

However, you cannot use Deut. and Jude to show that when 1Thessalonians uses correctly the word "saints" that it is referring to angels. In this case, NO ANGELS, just HUMANS. Does that mean that 1Thessalonians chapter four is saying only saints and no angels? NO! That is not what it is saying at all.

1Thessalonians chapter means exactly that "human saints" will return with Christ at the Second Coming.

The question is, what human saints are returning with Christ at the Second Coming?

1. Is it only those who were raised from the dead at Christ's Resurrection?

2. Is it Enoch, Moses, and Elijah only?

3. Is it Enoch, Moses, and Elijah, and those raised at Christ's Resurrection?

4. Is it ALL THOSE WHO DIED AND ARE SAVED?

5. Some other possibility we cannot think of?

To me at minimum the text is murky as to precisely which humans are returning with Christ. However, I think all of the first possibilities listed above are viable.

If we take number four above, which we cannot truthfully eliminate all together (or is it altogether), then that is indeed interesting in regards to what happens after death.

The fact is the Bible is not precise as to what happens to the human exactly after death. Does this mean we know nothing? NO! We in fact do know some things but we cannot actually be sure of everything.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Thus, there is no where in the Bible where the word "saints" and the word "angels" are interchangeable.

Thus, the 1Thessalonians chapter 4 continues to be a problem.

iho hagios in 1 Thes 3:13 is translated holy onesin the NIV. Angels are also referred to as ho hagios angelos.

Since the dead don't know anything, and David, a saint, has not gone up there, and the Bible plainly points out that Jesus is coming back with a cloud of angels & the resurrected saints, the ho hagios = holy ones can only mean the angels and the resurrected saints that have gone on to heaven.

I am not in disagreement with you on this. 1Thess. 3:13 is referring to "holy ones" which means "angels" in my book.

I was only saying that in the KJV Deut. and Jude mistranslated that Greek Word wrong when they use the word "saints". Saints never refers to angels. Holy Ones refers to angels. Thus, we cannot cite Deut. and Jude to show that "angels are saints" in the Bible. This is not so.

That is all I am saying.

Angels will come with Christ at the Second Coming. I agree with this. I was not saying something different.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

Deuteronomy 33:2

(2) And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Jude 1:14

(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Angels are also referred to as saints

2 Thessalonians 1:7

(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Where in the Bible are "angels" referred to as "saints"?

"Saints" means "holy ones." Holy angels of God are obviously "holy ones." Deuteronomy 33: 2 clearly refers to angels as "holy ones." The Hebrew word is qodhesh, Strongs #6944. It is translated as "holy myriads" in Rotherham's Emphasized Bible, and as "saints" in the Complete Jewish Bible.

The same word refers to angels in Job 5: 1; 15: 15; Zech. 14: 5; and twice in Daniel 8: 13. See page 872 of The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Hendrickson Publishers, 12th ed., 2008.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

Deuteronomy 33:2

(2) And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Jude 1:14

(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Angels are also referred to as saints

2 Thessalonians 1:7

(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Where in the Bible are "angels" referred to as "saints"?

[John317]

.. 1Thess. 3:13 is referring to "holy ones" which means "angels" in my book.

I was only saying that in the KJV Deut. and Jude mistranslated that Greek Word wrong when they use the word "saints". Saints never refers to angels.

"Holy ones" and "saints" actually means the same thing.

Deut. 33: 2 can be legitimately translated as "sacred ones" or "saints."

For the sake of clarity, however, I do agree with you that it is better translated in those verses as "sacred" or "holy" ones. It would avoid misunderstanding.

[BobRyan]

In Rev 14:10 the wicked are burned "in the presence of the lamb and of his holy ones".

In 1Thess 4 Christ "brings with him those who have fallen asleep".

Solomon says that at death the spirit goes to God.

When Stephen dies he calls out to God to receive his spirit.

We believe in soul sleep - - not soul annihilation at the first death.

At the second death - the soul and body are both destroyed not just the body.

God alone can do that.

In Rev 19 - the 2nd coming event is described as Christ coming with the armies of heaven. So angels are definitely in that group.

In Matt 27 a great many saints are raised with Christ - no doubt they are there in Rev 19 as well.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

[doug yowell]

[Read my clarifying remarks already posted John317.

THanks for those clarifiers,miz. That clears up the conflict that we needed not be conflicted over. I think we're all agreed on what I Thes.3 was alluding to and who was in the welcoming party. I understand the point you were trying to get across and partially agree with it. I just take the attitude that if 6 other verses describe in clearer detail an event that one verse describes without being specific then I feel comfortable in connecting the less precise one with the others.Too bad that radio preacher couldn't have been here to study the passage more clearly.He might have learned something new.

[doug yowell]

the 1Thessalonians chapter 4 continues to be a problem.

The radio preacher thinks the problem lies with those who don't understand the concept of what happens to mankind after he dies and most of us here agree with that assessment.Mr. Radio Speaker is trying to argue from the literal wording of Paul while ignoring the overwhelming evidence that both the Scriptures and common sense have previously offered. This is an example of what I've always tried to communicate, that it's not what God says that is important, it's what God means by what He says that counts.

One obvious problem arises from the conclusion that MRS draws from this passage, it contradicts the information about the same event given by the same author in his letter to the church at Corinth as well as it's own logical progression.I Cor.15 and I Thes. 4 focus and describe the resurrection of the righteous and state exactly that that will occur at the 2nd coming.THe question he fails to answer is how can those living(?) saints accompany Christ back to the earth when they are described as being dead in the grave awaiting the resurrection that the presence of Christ will create? How can "God bring with Him those who are dead in Jesus" (I Thes. 4:14)when "those who are alive and remain"(v.17) are waiting for "those who are dead in Christ"(vs.15,16) to proceed them(v.15)in the resurrection(v.15)in order to "always be with the Lord"(v.17)? MRS simply avoids this delemna and appeals straight to the mythical beliefs of his audience.They in turn are most often content to let him do their analysis for them.

[skyblue888]

I find it very interesting that this particular text says "with ten thousands of His saints" whereas when speaking of angels the Scriptures usually mention them as of being "ten thousand times ten thousands and thousands of thousands." Rev.5:11. "A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousands times ten thousands stood before Him." Dan.7:10.

That is why I believe that "saints" in the context of the second coming means the redeemed. In other words Christ and His saints (a multitude of them who were raised at His resurrection and taken to Heaven and Moses of course, Elijah, and Enoch) will return as kings with Christ accompanied by all the angels.

Christ and the "saints" (redeemed from the earth) are the Kings of the East mentioned in Revelation 16:12 who will be accompanied by all the angels.

sky

[doug yowell]

I find it very interesting that this particular text says "with ten thousands of His saints" whereas when speaking of angels the Scriptures usually mention them as of being "ten thousand times ten thousands and thousands of thousands."

That is why I believe that "saints" in the context of the second coming means the redeemed. In other words Christ and His saints (a multitude of them who were raised at His resurrection and taken to Heaven and Moses of course, Elijah, and Enoch) will return as kings with Christ accompanied by all the angels.

These are the Kings of the East mentioned in Revelation 16:12.

sky

Could this passage imply a 3rd coming which takes place after the 1000 years and thus not referring to the kings of the east? Is it kinda odd that Enoch would refer to the future coming by including himself in that group?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I find it very interesting that this particular text says "with ten thousands of His saints" whereas when speaking of angels the Scriptures usually mention them as of being "ten thousand times ten thousands and thousands of thousands."

That is why I believe that "saints" in the context of the second coming means the redeemed. In other words Christ and His saints (a multitude of them who were raised at His resurrection and taken to Heaven and Moses of course, Elijah, and Enoch) will return as kings with Christ accompanied by all the angels.

These are the Kings of the East mentioned in Revelation 16:12.

sky

Could this passage imply a 3rd coming which takes place after the 1000 years and thus not referring to the kings of the east? Is it kinda odd that Enoch would refer to the future coming by including himself in that group?

What is so odd about Enoch being one of the "saints" accompanying Christ at His return?

sky

[skyblue888]

Deuteronomy 33:2

(2) "And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them."

Jude 1:14

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints."

12tribes

_______________

I just noticed this post a few minutes ago while scrolling back to see if I had missed anything. I had missed a few posts including the above quoted by 12tribes...

I was not aware that Jude 14 was a reference to Deut.33:2.

That makes a huge difference. Before Sinai only two people had been taken to Heaven, Moses and Enoch.

Therefore "ten thousands of His saints" refer to angels and not men.

Of course, that does not change the fact that when Jesus returns He will not only be accompanied by angels but especially by those who were redeemed from the earth, who had been made Kings and Priests with Him, a mulitude of them.

sky

[John317]

[skyblue888]

:)

[John317]

...THe question he fails to answer is how can those living(?) saints accompany Christ back to the earth when they are described as being dead in the grave awaiting the resurrection that the presence of Christ will create? How can "God bring with Him those who are dead in Jesus" (I Thes. 4:14)when "those who are alive and remain"(v.17) are waiting for "those who are dead in Christ"(vs.15,16) to proceed them(v.15)in the resurrection(v.15)in order to "always be with the Lord"(v.17)?

I think most people who believe the dead go immediately to their reward would say that at the second coming, the spirits of the dead are reunited with their bodies. That is wrong, of course, but it's what they believe, even though the Bible doesn't teach it. Of course there are lots of problems with that belief.

[John317]

Therefore "ten thousands of His saints" refer to angels and not men.

I think that's another way of saying "so many that they can't be counted." It probably wasn't meant to indicate a particular number of them.

I believe in this context, it refers to both the humans and the angels who return with Christ. So we're in agreement on that point.

[doug yowell]

Before Sinai only two people had been taken to Heaven, Moses and Enoch.

sky, you might want to do a Biblical fact check on this one. Is this your final answer?

[skyblue888]

I forgot Elijah?

sky :)

[John317]

Yeah, don't forget my favorite prophet. I can't wait to meet him!

He already knows you and me, though.

He'll probably tell me he didn't think I was going to make it.

[skyblue888]

hehehe

he'll probably tell me the same thing.

For some reason I imagined he came upon the scene later when I sent my last post.

sky