Roosenberg SDA on Daniel 11

[ClubV12]

Tim Roosenberg seminar videos.

http://www.islamvschristianity.org/index...d=1&from=10

This guy is giving a three part Daniel 11 seminar for Adventists.

He also does a ten part evangelistic series for the public. If your not familiar with the basics of the 2,300 year prophecy and end time events you might want to watch the whole series.

The THREE PART is on "page 2" of the video listings, which default to "page one" and the basic 10 part series.

The three part is not to advanced and gets right into the subject matter, but you do need some background.

Pope, Chrisitans, USA/Europe alliance (NATO essentially) is the King of the North.

Being "pushed" (attacked, bothered, harassed) by

Islam, King of the South. When the North King has "had enough" aggravation, they strike back, hard, against Islam. Which incorporates many different countries coming together to creat chaos so the "12th Imam" will return and bring world peace. I always wondered why these guys are so intent on creating "chaos" around the globe.

Not ALL Islamic countries, SOME decide to "follow the King of the North" out of fear of being "wiped out". Notably, Egypt, Libya, some others. Uniting reluctantly with King of the North. Many Muslims convert AND carry the message of Christ to other Muslims during the loud cry.

Israel ends up in the middle and gets pounded from both sides. Jerusalem is taken captive in some way (not clear to me).

Fourth group. People of God who do not unite with EITHER King (North, South or Israel).

Islams day of worship is changed from FRIDAY to Sunday. International Sunday law for the world. Those who refuse to acknowledge Sunday, radical Muslims and Christians alike, recieve the "mark" and at some point come under a death decree. Radical Muslim Nations are "wiped out" by Kind of North.

The return of Christ follows shortly after these last days end time events.

Very nicely done presentation, not at all radical, BIBLE BASED.

[John317]

Watching now. Thanks for posting this.

Part III is great!

[skyblue888]

John, right off the bat listening to Part 3 I find some discrepencies. You know that at the time of the fifth plague when the wicked are about to execute the death decree, to slay the saints, thick darkness will fall upon the earth. This is a universal plague. The wicked in all parts of the world then lose sight of the saints. They will be in total darkness. Then they see a rainbow spanning the heavens and hovering over them. They fall at their feet and acknowledge that God has loved them. When they get back on their feet they accuse one another but they all agree to put the blame on the religious authorities and they turn on them with a vengeance. This is the sixth plague. It is at this time that the king of the north, Babylon the great, will be destroyed. It is at this time that there are none to help the king of the north because all will have withdrawn their support. It is at this time that there is strife and bloodshed everywhere. And this universal carnage is followed by the hail (sixty pound hail, universal) and the great earthquake.

How many wicked do you think will remain alive after the sixth and seventh plagues (which are also universal) keeping in mind that the first four plagues will have destroyed countless?

sky

I only listened for ten minutes. I will listen to more when I can.

[ClubV12]

I haven't even listend to part three yet. I was so impressed I thought I would post the link right away after listening to part 1 and only partial part 2.

....busy as a stump full of ants around the house today.

I'm anxious to here what others think, and to finish the series. I think some "details" could be debated but I appreciate the tone of his delivery which allows for that. He takes a cautious approach, as Jude says, "being merciful to those who doubt". In view of all the wild stuff I've been hearing about Daniel 12 lately, I was very much doubting this guy was even worth listening too!

He came across like a breath of fresh air.

[John317]

I think what he says makes a lot of good sense and is biblical. I listened to all three videos, but I really need to listen to them again, especially part II.

I listened to part III first, then parts I and II. I'll listen to them again tomorrow.

[Igakusei]

Daniel 11 is about the Ptolemies and the Seleucids. It is literally almost a play-by-play of Greek military history. Well, up to verse 39 at least. After that it's just failed predictions about things that never happened in the 2nd century BC.

[skyblue888]

Iga, why is it that every time I read your posts I get the definite impression that your sole purpose for being here, like Gustave, is to ridicule adventism.

sky

[skyblue888]

Tim Roosenberg seminar videos.

http://www.islamvschristianity.org/index...d=1&from=10

This guy is giving a three part Daniel 11 seminar for Adventists.

He also does a ten part evangelistic series for the public. If your not familiar with the basics of the 2,300 year prophecy and end time events you might want to watch the whole series.

The THREE PART is on "page 2" of the video listings, which default to "page one" and the basic 10 part series.

The three part is not to advanced and gets right into the subject matter, but you do need some background.

Pope, Chrisitans, USA/Europe alliance (NATO essentially) is the King of the North.

Being "pushed" (attacked, bothered, harassed) by

Islam, King of the South. When the North King has "had enough" aggravation, they strike back, hard, against Islam. Which incorporates many different countries coming together to creat chaos so the "12th Imam" will return and bring world peace. I always wondered why these guys are so intent on creating "chaos" around the globe.

Not ALL Islamic countries, SOME decide to "follow the King of the North" out of fear of being "wiped out". Notably, Egypt, Libya, some others. Uniting reluctantly with King of the North. Many Muslims convert AND carry the message of Christ to other Muslims during the loud cry.

Israel ends up in the middle and gets pounded from both sides. Jerusalem is taken captive in some way (not clear to me).

Fourth group. People of God who do not unite with EITHER King (North, South or Israel).

Islams day of worship is changed from FRIDAY to Sunday. International Sunday law for the world. Those who refuse to acknowledge Sunday, radical Muslims and Christians alike, recieve the "mark" and at some point come under a death decree. Radical Muslim Nations are "wiped out" by Kind of North.

The return of Christ follows shortly after these last days end time events.

Very nicely done presentation, not at all radical, BIBLE BASED.

Not just some but all the Muslim countries of the world, like all the other nations will pay homage to the beast and his image. The whole world will worship the beast except for a very small nucleous of people. At the end of the day the only ones against whom there will be a buy-and-sell decree and finally a death decree, are those who refuse to obey a law of the land which goes contrary to the law of God. By that time the whole world is paying homage to the beast and his image.

The king of the south at this time is Islamic extremism pushing, harassing, bothering, attacking what is to become the image of the king of the north. The king of the north is the papacy which is to be brought back to life by apostate protestantism, its image. When Apostate Protestantism shall receive power by the union of Church and State, first in the US, it will give its power and authority to the king of the north, to the papacy. It is this power which gives life and support to the king of the north.

The king of the north is not a US/Europe Alliance or NATO.

sky

[ClubV12]

Apostate protestantism includes Europe and much of the civilized world. One could make a case for that being essentially "NATO". As the NATO countries combine their political power with the political and spiritual power of the North King. The North King becomes a large world power in both political and spiritual sense. The spiritual head is the Pope.

This final alliance is a result of "radical Islam" making a major assault against the North King. To prevent Islam from over running Europe and the "world" (christian or not), the North King comes at Islam "like a whirl wind". One could classify this as WW3 I suppose. It is world wide and will involve all countries.

Waring against the combined powers of Islam on a world scale. Some countries (notably Egypt and Libya) "follow" rather than be destroyed. Those Islamic nations that do not "follow" are destroyed. There are only two choices for "Islam" and for "christian" nations. Form an alliance on one side or the other.

North King wipes out resistance from Islamic powers and takes over Jerusalem. Now we have "one" world power, the "beast". As a sign of the alliance with the North Sunday worship is called for. The spiritual power begins of the North now comes to the front. Islam must change day of worship from Friday to Sunday. Sabbath keepers must change from Saturday to Sunday. Those who accept Sunday receive mark and are left alone, those who do not receive mark are persecuted.

The "loud cry", final message. Accepted by many Muslims, Christ as their saviour. While they remain ignorant of many details of christianity (as was the thief on the cross) they accept Jesus as the one who died for and can forgive their sins. They carry the loud cry to fellow Muslims, now protected from "shira" law by the North King they can talk freely, openly about their faith.

Christian commandment keeping people expose the North King for what it really is, a false christian power. Infuriated the North King begins the final spiritual battle against ALL those who do not have the "mark".

Jesus comes.

Fill in the blanks, supply the details, but I believe this "Cliff Notes" version is reasonably accurate.

King of the North, Papacy, Man of Sin, the Beast, whatever "title" you choose to use, all say the same thing. Behind the physical scenes we see a spiritual battle, Christ is leading a small group against a much larger group led by Satan. Note that neither the Christian nor the Islam powers are in allegiance with Christ, which is composed of a much smaller "third group", the remnant of the remnant. Truly converted Christians and truly converted Muslims who accept Christ as their personal saviour and all those in between who do the same. Some are actually Seventh-day Adventists, at least a few are. Some are Catholics, or Baptists or "______", many are Muslims is my guess.

[skyblue888]

I will only add that the king of the north and its image will not conquer the Muslim countries of the world and every other country by the force of arms. That won't work. It can only be achieved by the miracle-working power of Satan when church and state are united to impose the child of the papacy. There may be a show of force but what wins in the end is the miracle-working power of Satan to bring the whole world at the feet of the pope.

The last battle will be a spiritual one. When that battle is over, Babylon the great with the king of the north as its head, the papacy, will be utterly destroyed. Those who had been their strongest supporters will turn against them and bring them down to the pit. The same scenario will take place after the thousand years when all the unsaved of all ages shall turn against Satan and his evil angels with the fury of demons.

sky

[ClubV12]

I agree Sky.

The "battle", as I see it, is in two phases. I think a literal physical battle with rockets and guns destroying those Islamic nations who resist and encompassing those who choose to "follow". This sets the scene for the final last phase, a spiritual battle. Even those Islamic nations that follow the beast have no inclination toward "christianity" per se, they simply want to live. To be able to buy, sell carry on commerce and be left alone. Until they to are forced to make a spiritual decision, change their day of worship from Friday to Sunday. Seeing the destruction of those who resisted the first phase, it will be easy to accept the "mark" of the second phase. Regardless of whether they actually intend to "worship" anything or anybody, just "go with the flow" for many. For some, it will be a turning point, they will accept Christ, even in the face of financial ruin and risk of death.

Detail: Probation ends (for all) shorty after the "death decree" becomes a matter of record but BEFORE the death decree actually becomes law via an "enforcement" date.

Probation will have already ended for a great number (if not majority) of people well before this time.

[Lysimachus]

Hey now Club, I told you about this first!

You guys remember? I repeated several times about Roosenberg's view of Daniel 11.

[Lysimachus]

The USA or NATO is not the king of the north. But they are the military powers that do the biddings of the King of the North (the Papacy). Roosenberg brought up this argument in one of the videos. I have not seen those 3 videos, but I did watch most of the following which has 10 videos:

http://www.sealingtime.com/media/product...hecy/index.html

Remember, when the Papacy went to war through its crusading armies, it was not the Pope's armies per-say, but the armies of the different European kingdoms who were on a mission for the Pope.

[Lysimachus]

I will only add that the king of the north and its image will not conquer the Muslim countries of the world and every other country by the force of arms. That won't work. It can only be achieved by the miracle-working power of Satan when church and state are united to impose the child of the papacy. There may be a show of force but what wins in the end is the miracle-working power of Satan to bring the whole world at the feet of the pope.

The last battle will be a spiritual one. When that battle is over, Babylon the great with the king of the north as its head, the papacy, will be utterly destroyed. Those who had been their strongest supporters will turn against them and bring them down to the pit. The same scenario will take place after the thousand years when all the unsaved of all ages shall turn against Satan and his evil angels with the fury of demons.

sky

But do you think it may be a combination of both? Perhaps the Western Christian world headed by the Papacy will inflict a number of military blows, crippling the Muslim world, and then the rest of the Muslim world coming into harmony once the miracle-working power of Satan goes into effect shortly after?

[ClubV12]

Sadly, I missed that referrence as I suspect others did. In your recent absence I was inquiring as to WHO this guy was and if anybody had heard of him. Seems no one had.

At any rate, I've sure heard of him now, he has a real interesting take on Dan 11 through 12:4 or so. One of my "1335 Futurist" friends think he didn't go far enough into Daniel 12 to get to the meat of the subject. Timing sequence of events using the 1335 day for a day principle. Which personally, I'm not paying a whole lot of attention to anyway. I have a gutt feeling it's largely superflous if there is anything to it, just not a critical component.

The time to accept and prepare for salvation is right now! I readily accept the idea that the little time of trouble could last for "years". We have been given instruction on how physically to be prepared for that time. Country home, grow your own food, etc. etc. Not possible for ALL, perhaps, but for those that can and do they represent an "ark of refuge" and should make room for those Saints who will need to flee at the last moment. Physical beds, rooms, basic provisions (like a water supply), an area to grow food, etc.

The MOST important issue of ALL of this is a personal heart felt preparation to follow the Lord, right now and forever. No matter what...

We can put to fine a point on the absolute King of the North. Sure it's the Papacy, but it should be more broadly and realistically identified. The Papacy, the USA are prominent leaders in assembling the "team" that will comprise the North King power. The "head" of this power is the Pope, no wait, it's really Satan. Wait, it's the actual missles employed to gain control. To fine a point MISSES the point. There WILL be a physical war, I'm sure of it, with missles and guns and ships. Of course there will also be "miracles" and spiritual conditions. It's a BROAD picture here.

[ClubV12]

Lysimachus, the link you posted leads to the TEN PART evangelistic series meetings. Which is very good but covers a LOT of ground many of us already know about. The "basics".

The Link I posted originally takes you directly to a three part series designed for "Adventists" who already understand the "basics" and delves right into the heart of the matter.

http://www.islamvschristianity.org/index...d=1&from=10

These three videos are the very latest from Roosenberg.

[John317]

Daniel 11 is about the Ptolemies and the Seleucids. It is literally almost a play-by-play of Greek military history. Well, up to verse 39 at least. After that it's just failed predictions about things that never happened in the 2nd century BC.

Did you watch the videos all the way through?

[John317]

The king of the north is not a US/Europe Alliance or NATO.

I believe the king of the north is the papacy, and his allies will be the US/Europe Alliance.

[ClubV12]

I think the Papacy will remain "hidden" for a considerable length of time during this coming conflict. Using his "minions" (USA, Europe, NATO alliance as we've SEEN in Libya already) to do his dirty work while he keeps his hands clean. But make no mistake, the Papacy is at work right now setting the stage, getting his "armies" lined up.

The view will be: For God and Country we must limit the power base of "evil" Islam for the good of the world. To save the Queen, to save Egypt, to save those countries begging us for protection (like Libya). "NATO" led perhaps by the USA initially, I wouldn't rule out Europe, will demand that the Islams be "suppressed" militarily. I think a very real "war" is coming, devastating to many countries in many ways. Physical destruction, financial ruin, limited nuclear strikes, it's gonna get ugly. THEN the Pope will propose to "come to the rescue" of mankind, a "saviour" as he lays out what step we will need to take. To follow up the physical war with the spiritual war, to win not just in military fashion, but the "hearts and minds" of the people. Turn to God and the worlds problems will get better, lets start with attending church, on Sunday. The Pope will reach a world audience like we haven't seen in centuries with his preaching about the need for this "good work" that must be done. Because the world is at stake, lets lay aside our differences in doctrine. Let the Mormons come into harmony with the Muslims, and the Baptists and the Catholics, for the "good of world peace". Let the Pope be the "head" over all. Many Seventh-day Adventists will agree, it is our only hope.

Our soldiers, the worlds soldiers, praised and upheld as the footman required to restore peace and harmony. Highly motivated, for God and Country, there on a mission to save the world. Those who don't follow the Sunday order of things will be directly attacking that concept. Outcasts, rebels, non-patriots, not worthy of being considered a part of the "family". The "evil people" concept moves away from Islam to those who refuse to accept the mark.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Daniel 11 is about the Ptolemies and the Seleucids. It is literally almost a play-by-play of Greek military history. Well, up to verse 39 at least. After that it's just failed predictions about things that never happened in the 2nd century BC.

Did you watch the videos all the way through?

No, but I've read enough apologetics that I'd be very surprised if there were any arguments against this that I haven't heard yet.

[John317]

Let's not forget the very important part that spiritualism and the appearances of fallen angels in the form of men will play in all this. We're told that these will include some of the apostles of the early church, who will urge the Sunday law and say that God changed the Sabbath. We can be sure that these things will be seen on TV all around the world.

[John317]

Did you watch the videos all the way through?

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

No, but I've read enough apologetics that I'd be very surprised if there were any arguments against this that I haven't heard yet.

Well watch the videos and look up the verses he's talking about. How can you critizise something you know nothing about?

I think he makes a very good case. I'm not convinced of some of the details but I believe he's generally correct.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: John317

Did you watch the videos all the way through?

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

No, but I've read enough apologetics that I'd be very surprised if there were any arguments against this that I haven't heard yet.

Well watch the videos and look up the verses he's talking about. How can you critizise something you know nothing about?

I think he makes a very good case. I'm not convinced of some of the details but I believe he's generally correct.

I went through Daniel in pretty exhausting detail a couple years ago. I looked up all the arguments I could find one way or another before making up my mind. Are you saying that this guy suddenly came up with a bunch of new arguments that nobody knew about two years ago? What makes you jump to the conclusion that this is a subject I know nothing about? So far in the discussion here I haven't seen anything to indicate that this isn't just more of the same old numerology.

I'm not opposed to watching it, but I certainly don't have three hours to devote to it this week.

[John317]

....The view will be: For God and Country we must limit the power base of "evil" Islam for the good of the world. To save the Queen, to save Egypt, to save those countries begging us for protection (like Libya). "NATO" led perhaps by the USA initially, I wouldn't rule out Europe, will demand that the Islams be "suppressed" militarily. I think a very real "war" is coming, devastating to many countries in many ways. Physical destruction, financial ruin, limited nuclear strikes, it's gonna get ugly. THEN the Pope will propose to "come to the rescue" of mankind, a "saviour" as he lays out what step we will need to take. To follow up the physical war with the spiritual war, to win not just in military fashion, but the "hearts and minds" of the people. Turn to God and the worlds problems will get better, lets start with attending church, on Sunday.

And what makes this so deceptive is that it will look like the forces fighting for God and Country are in the right. If I didn't know the prophecies and understand books such as Great Controversy, I myself would no doubt join up in the fight against the evil King of the South. But as God's last day people, our work is to proclaim the Three Angels Messages to everyone who will listen. We can't get involved in taking sides in the wars. God loves the people on both sides.

That's why SDAs (and others) who don't join and unite with the forces behind the King of the North will be viewed as traitors and as haters of humanity.

[John317]

...I'm not opposed to watching it, but I certainly don't have three hours to devote to it this week.

OK, check them out some other time.

You could watch just one at a time. Some of them are only about 20 minutes long.