Roosenberg SDA on Daniel 11

[Lysimachus]

You know what Sister White said in the early 1900's when people were using her quotes to support their "pet version" of what the daily was? You know quotes like the one posted above, Early Writing page 74. Now THAT qoute seems to clear up the matter nicely, right? We can simply accept the daily as defined prior to 1844 by the early pioneers.

Now WHAT was it Ellen White said about using her quotes for the daily? STOP IT!!! Just lay Sister White to one side on this issue! She got pretty angry over it, everyone saying, "Sister White supports me, see THIS quote." Oh yeah, well see THIS quote then, clearly she supports ME, not you! Fact is, she is NOT clear on what the daily means, then or now. Good luck with your definition!

That reminds me, the pioneers were also nearly united on the correct belief that Christ would return in 1844. Correct, because thats what God wanted them to believe! Maybe He also wanted them to be nearly united on the "correct" view of the daily as well....

After a thorough analysis as to what these "pioneers were united on" concerning the daily, Heidi Heiks did an overwhelming, OUTSTANDING, job at documenting that what Ellen White meant concerning this "unity" on the daily had nothing to do with the actual "definition" of the daily itself, but in regards to the "length" of this daily, terminating in 1844. In other words, back in those days, the term "daily" was often used in reference to the "2300 days" itself. The issue of controversy when she wrote that statement had nothing to do with the definition of the daily, but the issue of contention was time setting. What was causing division among the brethren was whether the 2300 ended in 1844 or whether it was still yet future.

Remember, Ellen White was silent on the actual definition of the daily just like she was silent on Islam. Just like many of are now seeing new light in Islam, likewise, the understanding of the Daily is getting pretty polished up, especially now with Heidi Heik's "Daily" Source Book.

I would recommend everyone to buy that book. Trust me, you will be blown away. You're talking to someone who held to the "Paganism" view of the daily, and had to switch after weighing ALL the evidence.

[Windsor]

My understanding is that Roosenberg linked verse 30 to Pope Pius V yet the king in verse 30 apparently lost to the South while Pope Pius V was victorious against the Muslim fleet at Cypus. Perhaps in his book he has a play by play of each verse and how it fits history.

[ClubV12]

I haven't read Roosenbergs book so I wouldn't know.

Lysimachus, don't leave us hanging man, what is YOUR take on the definition of the "daily"?

Seems to me, but I will have to review, Roosenberg "alluded" to a definition of the daily in his videos. As I can't exactly recall how he did that I could be mistaken. I was as impressed by what he DIDN'T say as I was by what he DID! I'd love to chat with him or attend some intimate meeting where he takes the gloves off and spills the beans about what he really thinks Daniel 11 in general.

I want to study and learn more about Muslims and Islam in general as well. "We", Americans, I think have a pretty biased view of them with all the negative press they get. I wonder, how big IS the radical Islam view compared to the main stream view in that religion?

[John317]

Have you read the Koran all the way through yet? It's best to read it in about four different translations. There's an excellent edition of it which includes commentary by the Muslim translator.

[John317]

Remember, Ellen White was silent on the actual definition of the daily just like she was silent on Islam.

I think this is the only statement she made on Islam:

Quote:

The Saviour has said, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" He says again, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." Mohammedanism has its converts in many lands, and its advocates deny the divinity of Christ. Shall this faith be propagated, and the advocates of truth fail to manifest intense zeal to overthrow the error, and teach men of the pre-existence of the only Saviour of the world? O how we need men who will search and believe the word of God, who will present Jesus to the world in his divine and human nature, declaring with power and in demonstration of the Spirit, that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." O how we need believers who will now present Christ in life and character, who will hold him up before the world as the brightness of the Father's glory, proclaiming that God is love! {HM, September 1, 1892 par. 4}

She makes it clear that Islam is "error" which needs to be "overthrown" by the truth.

Islam denies the pre-existence of Jesus Christ and also denies that Jesus is the Savior of the world.

[ClubV12]

Muslims do believe in Christ, as yet another prophet. Some say He will return, with others, to convert the world to Islam. I wonder,,, is there a scenario where one could accept Christ as their Saviour, be welcomed to the heavenly city and yet remain ignorant of the deeper concept of Him as the creator, as God?

Something I think even the disciples wrestled with at some point. The divinity of Christ.

This certainly does not preclude the need to teach the correct view of the Saviour, that He IS the creator and His divinity. Jehovah Witness also believe Christ was created by the Father. That He came into existence at some point in time, does this preclude any possibility of salvation for them?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

...a book by Marc Alden Swearingen called "Tidings Out of the Northeast." ...

Is it saying anything similar to the videos by Roosenberg?

I'm not great at explaining what I've read, but like I mentioned I have not read the book for quite a while, and besides I only got to chapter 5 and don't recall anything of what I read. I'll be rereading the book and probably will remember stuff as I'm reading.

[ClubV12]

phk, the date in that book may be "dated" by now. Roosenberg noted his seminars have recently changed, again, based on the latest developements on the world scene. The most recent videos on his web site just replaced the old videos there. As you know the events in the mid east are moving rather rapidly and as they do there are subtle changes and suppositions that come into play with Daniel 11 as well. Like war, it's a very fluid situation at this time. As it was when Uriah Smith was writing about the same subject matter! He was doing then the best he could with developing world conditions.

No doubt, he, like Roosenberg, was also convinced we were on the very edge of the end of time. And he was right, they were! The Lord COULD have come in his lifetime! I do believe we are once again at the very edge of these last day events. And the Lord COULD come in our lifetime, if we will only do our part and stop this madness of wandering around the wilderness for once and for all.

If not, then well, some future generation may be looking back at Roosenberg and declaring he was "close" but missed the key components. That is, after all, how we see Uriah Smith today...

[phkrause]

phk, the date in that book may be "dated" by now. Roosenberg noted his seminars have recently changed, again, based on the latest developements on the world scene. The most recent videos on his web site just replaced the old videos there. As you know the events in the mid east are moving rather rapidly and as they do there are subtle changes and suppositions that come into play with Daniel 11 as well. Like war, it's a very fluid situation at this time. As it was when Uriah Smith was writing about the same subject matter! He was doing then the best he could with developing world conditions.

No doubt, he, like Roosenberg, was also convinced we were on the very edge of the end of time. And he was right, they were! The Lord COULD have come in his lifetime! I do believe we are once again at the very edge of these last day events. And the Lord COULD come in our lifetime, if we will only do our part and stop this madness of wandering around the wilderness for once and for all.

If not, then well, some future generation may be looking back at Roosenberg and declaring he was "close" but missed the key components. That is, after all, how we see Uriah Smith today...

Good point Club, the book was published in '06

[Windsor]

40 “At the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, with horsemen and with many ships; and he will enter countries, overflow them and pass through. 41 He will also enter the [aw]Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall; but these will be rescued out of his hand: Edom, Moab and the foremost of the sons of Ammon."

The events of the last 10 years as the North has collided with Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc.?? The US/Nato only lacks an invasion of the Beautiful Land and what happens in the verses after... Thoughts?

[ClubV12]

My thoughts are that when this comes into full bloom it will already be to late for many of us to have made a decision, an irrevocable choice for the Lord. Oh sure, we mostly follow the Lord, want to, love to, but there earthly matters that also need our attention. Practical folks that we are, we don't want to get all radical about stuff.

I'm afraid to many are waiting until the last minute grasping for both the earthly and the heavenly crown, and will loose both. These last day events will be so rapid, we will be caught off gaurd in spite of the warnings. Hesitation will be the result. Maybe this will blow over? Maybe it's not really the last events? I'm almost finished with my latest project (investment almost mature, house almost finished, etc.), maybe I better wait this out a bit longer? We've been waiting SO long for the Lords return maybe this is just another delay?

Following the final invasion/take over of Israel (for their own protection, it's a "good thing") signs and wonders will follow. All the world will marvel over the "King of the North" and how it has stabilzed and saved the planet. The stage is set for the beast power to work it's deceitful wonders. The world will be praising the Lord and know not whom they are worshiping.

[ClubV12]

It just dawned on me, where does Daniel 12 fit into the sequence of events as it concerns Daniel 11?

I believe 12 is looking back at 11, giving the timeline. When it begins, when it ends. Daniel 11 is the key chapter, not 12. Consider the first verse of 12, which continues the timeline of 11.

"At that time Micheal (Jesus) shall stand up.... and there will be a time of trouble...."

It's OVER, probabtion for all mankind has closed, the plagues are about to be poured out. When Jesus stands up His work is finished, He puts on garments of wrath.

Some say Daniel 12 introduces a period of time of trouble that begins and ends in the last days, following Daniel 11. Which is only true in part. It's typically presented as a situation where probabation is still open, and there will be many converts during that time of trouble. The church will be shaken, etc. etc. Some say that period will last 1,260, 1,290, 1335 literal days, speculation runs rampant, dates and times are set. All based on Daniel 12 as a recurring segment of the 2,300 year prophecy. This suggests there is "still hope" to truly convert and follow the Lord, even unto death if necessary.

I don't know how long the little time of trouble will last. I don't know when it will begin or end and Jacobs time of trouble will begin or end. But I know this, it won't happen based on Daniel 12. It will have to happen before or during Daniel 11. Because,,,, Daniel 12:1,,, Michael stands up and it's over. Done, finished.

[skyblue888]

Club, you know how in 1798 the king of the south pushed at the king of the north and that resulted in a deadly wound for the king of the north. In other words the beast that came out of the bottomless pit at that time, Atheism in France, inflicted a deadly wound to the papal power which was passing itself off as Christianity. Since then atheism in the world has been predominant, manifesting itself in more ways than one. We all have heard lately about this bus in the city of London carrying the words, "There is no God."

I watched a very interesting program last nite on eqhd, a program dealing with religion vs atheism. I was all ears. They were discussing the fact that atheism today is becoming a real threat to Christianity, to religion, period, and that unless something drastic was done to counter this decided movement against religion, it would be the end of Christianity.

Daniel 11:40 came to mind immediately.

It cannot be denied that today, like never before, in the name of intellectual honesty, in the name of reason, and also in the name of so-called science, the king of the south, atheism, is challenging the king of the north represented by the various "established" religions of the day, but especially what is called "Christianity" or "organized religion."

Atheists are arguing, and rightly so, that they have a right to dissent from any established religon without having the anathema pronounced against them, that it is their right to question the very existence of religion, of any religion, for that matter, and to expose them. In other words the king of the south is again pushing at the king of the north.

I have believed for some time that Isalm was the king of the south. But after listening to that program last nite, I became convinced that Atheism is still very much the king of the south today raging war against Christianity, I mean, against that which passes itself off as Christianity.

In the last few decades Atheism has been taking the ascendancy in the world but especially in America and Europe and it looks like in the near future there will be another confrontation but this time the king of the north will make a splendid come back and the king of the south will be defeated. It will be argued that for the good of society, unless the church makes a decided movement against the rising threat of atheistic sentiments, all will be lost.

Having lost the power of God, the church will look to the arm of the State for power to enforce her religious dogmas (sunday law among other things) and to crush, in the name of God and religion, all who dare to oppose her authority. It will be argued that unless this is done, it will be the end of society as we know it and that in order to regain economic prosperity, the state must allow the church to wield the secular power that God's will on earth may be done. And when this takes place it will be said that this is the millenium of peace that many have been waiting for so long.

What say you?

sky

And who has not heard about atheists calling for the abolition of prayer in the public school and in government buildings... of course religion and politics should not mix and prayer should not be forced on the students in the public school rooms but the undeniable fact reamains that Atheism today is challenging the king of the north.

[Guest]

I watched all three parts of this Roosengerg Dan 11 seminar. I may have to watch it again.

[ClubV12]

Indeed RLH, I've watched his three hour presentation twice and will watch it yet again! A lot of "meat" in there.

Sky brings up an important point, we may be SO focused on the Sunday law issue we will miss other pertinent points that develop along the way. The evil doer is very crafty, it's not hard to imagine, when you think about it, an attack on God's people coming from several different approaches. A counterfit to the counterfit if you would.

Anything that will confuse the people and turn them away from worship of the true God and His commandments may be employed.

I do have a new concept of the "mark" from studying Roosenbergs presentation. Those who receive it in the hand are just going with the flow, just protecting their way of life, investments, earthly goods. Sure, whatever, we can do that, just leave us alone.

Those who receive on the forehead are adamant supporters of the "new order", ready and willing to die for "world peace", for their concept of God and country.

[Windsor]

People keep talking about the rise of atheism, but it's still a small minority. A recent poll in secular socialist United Kingdom showed 70% of people identified as Christian. 23% said no religion but even that doesn't mean atheism. Atheism will never play a major role in the end time, only false religious practice.

[Gordon1]

Spiritualism.

[ClubV12]

Ultimately there will only be two groups, those who follow all of Gods commandments and those who do not.

Of those who do not, there will be various affiliations, spiritulism, atheisism, Islamic, so called christians, jewish, catholic.

[skyblue888]

Atheism will never play a major role in the end time, only false religious practice.

Windsor

_______________

However Bible prophecy says that the king of the south (atheism since 1798) will push at him, Christendom which is the king of the north today.

Just this morning I received an e-mail from the Adventist Review titled:

Apple, Google Censoring Religion

A new report claims the internet giants are restricting free speech.

Apple, Google and other Internet giants are participating in religious discrimination and restricting free speech, according to a new report by the National Religious Broadcasters (NRB).

"If Christian content and worldview programming are censored by new media platforms ... the Good News of the Gospel could become one more casualty of institutionalized religious discrimination," said Frank Wright, NRB president.

The report, released Sept. 15 in Washington, examined the policies and practices of Apple, Facebook, Google, Myspace, and Twitter, as well as Internet service providers Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon.

Twitter is the only corporation that did not show signs of religious discrimination, according to the report. Twitter refuses to monitor or remove content unless it interferes with the terms of service.

The ideal proposition for solving this problem, according to the NRB, is to persuade the individual companies to eradicate censorship voluntarily and abide by their obligation to protect free speech. If the suggestions are not taken into consideration, NRB said it is willing to respond with such actions as legislation, regulation, or litigation.

NRB's report included the following examples of discrimination or potential censorship:

-- Apple offers hundreds of thousands of iPhone applications, but removed two apps by ex-gay Christian ministry Exodus International. Consumers were denied access to these two apps because their Christian content was considered "offensive."

To read the rest of this article, click here.

______________

Whether one realizes it or not, all of these things are fulfilling Daniel 11:40.

Today, like never before, Christendom feels threatened not so much by Islam but by the subtle onslaughts of the god of reason, the god of intellectually honesty or philosophy, and the god of what is called science demanding scientific evidence that the God of the Bible really exists.

So there is, at this time, all over the world, emanating from atheists, materialists, humanists, evolutionists, a decided movement or effort to prove that the Christian religion is a man-made invention and that society would be better off without it.

Of course this "attack" is directed at a Christianity that the Bible views as fallen Babylon but the atheists do not realize this. So without knowing it, these atheists, humanists, evolutionists who belong to the "king of the south" are not raging war against the true Christ, the true King of the North, but against a counterfeit of Him. I believe that many of them will accept the Gospel during the loud cry because then Christianity will be revealed for what it really is and they will be captivated by it and they will embrace it and become champions for the truth.

In the meantime if one listens to some of their best spokesmen, Bill Marr being one of them, they make a lot of sense even more sense then so-called Christians. I much prefer to listen to the voice of Bill Marr from the king of the south than to voices from the Christian right, representing the king of the north.

A man like Bill Marr would have more chances to be won over to God during the loud cry than those of the Christian right who think they are increased with goods and in need of nothing.

But of course the loud cry will convert people from both camps but I believe the majority will come from the king of the south.

sky

Spiritualism will be the weapon used by Satan during the loud cry in an attempt to prevent both religious and atheists from coming to the truth. It will win the majority of the religious people to join forces with the false king of the north, Babylon the great.

[skyblue888]

People keep talking about the rise of atheism, but it's still a small minority. A recent poll in secular socialist United Kingdom showed 70% of people identified as Christian. 23% said no religion but even that doesn't mean atheism. Atheism will never play a major role in the end time, only false religious practice.

Windsor

_______________

Polls mean nothing. Atheism runs deeper than many suppose. The Word of God associates atheism with Egypt and yet the Pharaoh of Egypt and the people of Egypt were very religious. Of course we can now say that they were more supertitious than religious but nevertheless they considered themselves very religious. I dare say that they believed that their religion was superior to any other religion. Look at the Pyramids. But when Pharaoh said to Moses, "Who is the Lord that I should obey Him," he revealed himself, in the eyes of the living God, as an atheist.

We could say the same thing with the world of Islam. These people are very religious but in the eyes of the Lord they are atheists all the same because they do not obey the Lord Jesus Christ any more than Pharaoh did. Any so-called religion that does not acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ as God and Saviour are atheists in the sight of God.

In that light, we can see that there are more atheists than we could have ever imagined. So the king of the south is a powerful force in this world, an influence that the king of the north will have to reckon with in these last days.

The king of the north, the papacy, professes to follow and obey the Lord Jesus Christ but with the help of apostate protestantism, its image, it will oppose and persecute the true followers of Christ when the last message of mercy shall be proclaimed in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit to all nations and denominations.

The reason why atheism is gaining ground more and more every day is that the Catholic Church is powerless to enforce morality through the arm of the state. She can no longer exercise her absolute authority over individuals as well as over the nations and it has been plagued with scandals on every side. She has long lost the power of God and the power of the state. So she is powerless. And the so-called protestant churches have also lost the power of God and they too are powerless. So atheism is getting bolder by the day and is challenging the status-quo, challenging the religious traditions and values of millions.

It will get worse before it gets better for the king of the north, for the beast and its image, but get better it will. The time is coming when the whole world will worship the king of the north, willingly or unwillingly. But in the meantime the king of the south is pushing at him and that will, soon or later, bring a reaction that will prove fatal for the king of the south. Church and state will unite and the persecutions of the Dark Ages will again raise their ugly head.

sky

[skyblue888]

Then we will see who, among the professed people of God, are settled into the truth both intellectally and spiritually so that they cannot be moved. It will require an enlightened faith in order to stand in these last days, a faith anchored upon the rock of the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.

sky

[ClubV12]

An interesting and thought provoking definition of atheism Sky.

[skyblue888]

Thanks Club. I have been really blessed by these discussions. They have forced me to take a fresh look at what is really happening in our world today.

God bless,

sky :)

[Windsor]

The king of the South simply isn't atheism. In the end, Satan himself will impersonate Christ. Why would an atheist care? Satan is looking to fool the religious, those people which make up around 99% of Earth's population.

[ClubV12]

ALL will wonder after the beast and acknowledge his rule and power, except those who follow Christ. Atheist, Muslim, Christian won't make any difference in the very final ending events.