Roosenberg SDA on Daniel 11

[ClubV12]

WAS he wrong on the daily? An item that REMAINS under intense discussion to THIS day! Even Ellen White didn't identify the "daily". If Uriah was indeed wrong, he was only standing in a very long line of those who had different opinions on it, and still do! Lots of people have an opinion on the daily, you can bet lots of them are wrong, some might be right, who knows?

Oh,,, AFTER "radical Islam" is wiped out, what follows is a short period of peace. I wonder what transpires during the "lull" between all out "war" and the coming all out "spiritual war" that is phase two?

[12tribes]

WAS he wrong on the daily? An item that REMAINS under intense discussion to THIS day! Even Ellen White didn't identify the "daily". If Uriah was indeed wrong, he was only standing in a very long line of those who had different opinions on it, and still do! Lots of people have an opinion on the daily, you can bet lots of them are wrong, some might be right, who knows?

Oh,,, AFTER "radical Islam" is wiped out, what follows is a short period of peace. I wonder what transpires during the "lull" between all out "war" and the coming all out "spiritual war" that is phase two?

[ClubV12]

You know what Sister White said in the early 1900's when people were using her quotes to support their "pet version" of what the daily was? You know quotes like the one posted above, Early Writing page 74. Now THAT qoute seems to clear up the matter nicely, right? We can simply accept the daily as defined prior to 1844 by the early pioneers.

Now WHAT was it Ellen White said about using her quotes for the daily? STOP IT!!! Just lay Sister White to one side on this issue! She got pretty angry over it, everyone saying, "Sister White supports me, see THIS quote." Oh yeah, well see THIS quote then, clearly she supports ME, not you! Fact is, she is NOT clear on what the daily means, then or now. Good luck with your definition!

That reminds me, the pioneers were also nearly united on the correct belief that Christ would return in 1844. Correct, because thats what God wanted them to believe! Maybe He also wanted them to be nearly united on the "correct" view of the daily as well....

[ClubV12]

You see Europe HAS to lead out in this call to "wipe out" radical Islam. An attack by Islam to draw the world into a "world war" will have to be SO big it will have impact more than just the USA. It will have to draw in the world, the European powers, NATO! France gets nuked. England gets nuked. Italy gets nuked, the Pope dies. Something HUGE.

...or not. WW1 started with a simple assassination of a couple of key players. Didn't seem like "that big of a deal", but it grew into a world war. I'm thinking 9-11 and the twin towers? That was a warm up compared to whats coming.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Okay, I can foresee an economic collapse necessitating the curtailment of commercial activities (due to shortage of fossil fuels) – which would probably favor Sunday being brought into view; however, that is hypothetical.

So far I’ve seen that the bruiting of a ‘Natl Sunday Law’ lacks a supporting text proffered from Writ; that being so, the bruit is simply notional. Notional, no mas.

'ware the Ides of October :(

[12tribes]

You know what Sister White said in the early 1900's when people were using her quotes to support their "pet version" of what the daily was? You know quotes like the one posted above, Early Writing page 74. Now THAT qoute seems to clear up the matter nicely, right? We can simply accept the daily as defined prior to 1844 by the early pioneers.

Now WHAT was it Ellen White said about using her quotes for the daily? STOP IT!!! Just lay Sister White to one side on this issue! She got pretty angry over it, everyone saying, "Sister White supports me, see THIS quote." Oh yeah, well see THIS quote then, clearly she supports ME, not you! Fact is, she is NOT clear on what the daily means, then or now. Good luck with your definition!

That reminds me, the pioneers were also nearly united on the correct belief that Christ would return in 1844. Correct, because thats what God wanted them to believe! Maybe He also wanted them to be nearly united on the "correct" view of the daily as well....

Maybe we can just chop out the parts we don't want? So what is your view on the daily?

[ClubV12]

Not a good idea, as you know, to start selecting what parts and pieces of Sister White we can accept with confidence, or not. But in the case of the daily, that is exactly what she said. She adamantly opposed the brethren using any of her work to support their position on the meaning of the daily. Leaving it up in the air to this day. In time, we will know for sure. Until then, we can only speculate. Some people, good people, I know are convinced the daily is the Sabbath, the abomination is replacing the Sabbath with Sunday. Well, thats one of many different views, personally, I have not yet formed an opinion. AND I've been looking at it for some time now.

jasd, you will not find anything in the bible that declares the Muslims or Islam by name, but their in the prophecies. Nor will you specifically find a verse that states Sunday is the image to the beast of Revelation. But it is. Such is the nature of prophecy, it leaves you plenty of hooks upon which to hang your doubt. I would recommend you watch the 10 part series, particularly part one, "The Basics" to get up to speed on this thread. You can find the series here:

http://www.islamvschristianity.org/index...mid=1&id=28

[John317]

...Another Cliff Notes:

Islam attacks EUROPE! Possibly the Pope himself. Nuclear? Bio? Pope assinated? Something REALLY BIG and so "evil" the world has never seen. Who IS Islam? Not just Alqueda but Irag, Iran, Yemen, there are many potential players. WHEN (NOT if) the attack is severe enough, "Europe" with the blessing of the Pope, takes the gloves off. The USA (worlds policeman) stands with Europe and the Pope. Islam countries who do not "follow" the beast are destroyed. Period, wiped out, smoking rubble, they wanted a "Holy War", they got one!

I feel certain that we're looking at a nuclear bomb going off either in Europe, Israel or the USA. It could also be a biological attack. But one or the other is going to galvanize the West.

It will appear that all God-and-country-loving people will have to help fight against the enemy, yet we can't do that. We're going to have to be good citizens at the same time that we don't take part in killing anyone. God would have us proclaim his love for all people, including Muslims. That will make us look like traitors.

[John317]

...Maybe we can just chop out the parts we don't want? So what is your view on the daily?

No, we need to pay attention to all of it. But that includes the parts of her writings where she says we shouldn't use her writings to determine the identity of "the daily."

It is best and most accurately translated as a noun, the "continuance."

It's a substinative without an adjective. I personally believe it's talking about Christ's work as our heavenly High Priest, which is what the little-horn power throws to the ground and stomps on. The "cleansing of the sanctuary" is in response to the work of the little-horn power.

In 1844, not only was the Investigative Judgment begun for the purpose of judging the saints, but the little-horn power is also judged. At the same time God raised up a movement which is designed to undo the evil work of the man of sin in hiding the truth from the world. That means proclaiming the Three Angels Messages and pointing people to Christ alone as our Priest and Savior.

[John317]

...So far I've seen that the bruiting of a Natl Sunday Law lacks a supporting text proffered from Writ

What are you looking for? Are you looking for the words, 'National Sunday Law'?

There's very good reason to believe that you're not going to find anything like that. God doesn't work that way. The prophecies were signified. That means they were put in symbols. God intentionally had the prophets write the prophecies in such a way that only those who study deeply and really want to understand them will understand them. The wicked won't understand them because they don't study things they consider silly or foolish.

Daniel 12:10

Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

...Maybe we can just chop out the parts we don't want? So what is your view on the daily?

No, we need to pay attention to all of it. But that includes the parts of her writings where she says we shouldn't use her writings to determine the identity of "the daily."

It is best and most accurately translated as a noun, the "continuance."

It's a substinative without an adjective. I personally believe it's talking about Christ's work as our heavenly High Priest, which is what the little-horn power throws to the ground and stomps on. The "cleansing of the sanctuary" is in response to the work of the little-horn power.

In 1844, not only was the Investigative Judgment begun for the purpose of judging the saints, but the little-horn power is also judged. At the same time God raised up a movement which is designed to undo the evil work of the man of sin in hiding the truth from the world. That means proclaiming the Three Angels Messages and pointing people to Christ alone as our Priest and Savior.

I agree with that when I quoted EGW I was not trying to prove any point I use the Bible for that I was just posting it out of interest

[Guest]

Tim Roosenberg seminar videos.

http://www.islamvschristianity.org/index...d=1&from=10

I am finding this very interesting...

[phkrause]

Talking about Daniel 11, I have a book by Marc Alden Swearingen called "Tidings Out of the Northeast." Its pretty good so far. I have only read the first 5 chapters, but its been a while. I need to start rereading to reaquaint(sp) myself with it.

[Windsor]

Very interesting set of videos which I think are pretty close to the truth though a few details may be off.

29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from Cyprus shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.

For example, he states that the ships of Kittim or Cypus refers to the Battle of Lepanto yet that was a decisive victoy by the King of the North, the papacy, over the King of the South, Islam. The text makes it seem like the North was defeated for the pope is grieved and enraged when in fact upon hearing the North's victory, Pope Pius V burst into tears of joy.

Help me out here.

[jasd]

>>jasd, you will not find anything in the bible that declares the Muslims or Islam by name, but their in the prophecies.<<

Perhaps by extension, or more explicity – as the Beast having lamb-like horns – signifying a patrilineal identifier with the Ram/Persian Empire.

>>Nor will you specifically find a verse that states Sunday is the image to the beast of Revelation.<<

Indeed not – nor passage, nor construct, nor...

>>But it is.<<

Again, without Biblical support - the idea argues for no other than notionality.

>>Such is the nature of prophecy, it leaves you plenty of hooks upon which to hang your doubt.<<

But none to hang one’s certitude?

Where even - is the Biblical allusion, the construct...?

[ClubV12]

For clairity and consideration of Windsors post, here is Roosenbergs comments of the verses in question. What we need now is a history buff to research this!!!

Anyone?

29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter."

Roosenberg:

“Former”= Papal response to the 1st woe of Rev.9:1-12/Dan.11:25-28. Current or “appointed time”= 2nd woe of Rev.9:13-21/Dan.11:29-39. “Latter”= 3rd woe Rev.11:15-19 & 12:12/Dan11:40-45.

30 "For ships from Cyprus (Kittim) shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage. So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant."

Roosenberg:

Islamic naval victories in the battles of Preveza in 1538 & Dierba in 1560, led to

decades of Islamic naval control until Pope Pius V organized the Holy League that

temporally stopped Islam in one of the largest Middle ages naval battles. Pope

Pius V also reasserted the Liturgical Mass, Inquisition, and decrees of the council of Trent.

31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily, and place there the abomination of desolation."

Roosenberg:

Same themes as Dan.8:11-13 the religious phase of the little horn.

[John317]

:-)

[John317]

I am also, RLH. I'm so glad ClubV12 posted them.

[John317]

...a book by Marc Alden Swearingen called "Tidings Out of the Northeast." ...

Is it saying anything similar to the videos by Roosenberg?

[ClubV12]

jasd, this is not the best thread for an in depth discussion of the definition of the beast and his image (Sunday worship). A good topic, but best left to an independant thread that could cover the complexities and the particluars. I think for the most part, here, on this thread, the assumption is made that the primary participants accept this as established fact. So the thrust, of this thread, is analyzing end time events with that in mind. Which is complicated enough in itself, without getting to side tracked! :)

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

...So far I've seen that the bruiting of a Natl Sunday Law lacks a supporting text proffered from Writ

>>What are you looking for? Are you looking for the words, 'National Sunday Law'?<<

That would be acceptable – given the questionable nature of the presumption, ‘Natl Sunday Law’.

>>There's very good reason to believe that you're not going to find anything like that. God doesn't work that way. The prophecies were signified. That means they were put in symbols. God intentionally had the prophets write the prophecies in such a way that only those who study deeply and really want to understand them will understand them. The wicked won't understand them because they don't study things they consider silly or foolish.

Daniel 12:10

Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.<<

Okay, already with the ill-natured comments... just provide the texts that support such a radical extraction from Writ – as Natl Sunday Law; for...

dispensing or otherwise proselytizing misinterpreted passages of Writ ought to be either shunned or verboten to the serious exposition of Writ.

>>The prophecies were signified. That means they were put in symbols.<<

Okay, go ahead and signify – and parse the ‘signifiers’ and the ‘symbols’. One cannot just bandy about an unfounded assertion – as though it were either stipulated or truth.

[ClubV12]

Simple enough, start a new thread with the questions you seek answers to on the BASIC Sunday issue. It is well understood and accepted by Adventist prophecy students. I'll be glad to address those issues in that thread. Please, THIS thread is not the time or place for that discussion.

[jasd]

>>jasd, this is not the best thread for an in depth discussion of the definition of the beast and his image (Sunday worship).<< [/ed.jasd]

Oo-la!

Wasn’t asking for “in depth”; only the simple facts, which, were one able – would promptly and straightforwardly proffer.

>>I think for the most part, here, on this thread, the assumption is made that the primary participants accept this as established fact.<<

Tchah!—on those visiting and/or otherwise gleaning from this thread? Indulge yourselves.

Quote:

Quote:jasd

for...

dispensing or otherwise proselytizing misinterpreted passages of Writ ought to be either shunned or verboten to the serious exposition of Writ.

>>So the thrust, of this thread, is analyzing end time events with that in mind. Which is complicated enough in itself, without getting to side tracked! <<

I’ve always been of a mind that the ‘analyst’ requires firstly/primarily – a ‘credible’ premise or thesis – otherwise he only speculates.

Anyway, I take your meaning...

[John317]

.... just provide the texts that support such a radical extraction from Writ as Natl Sunday Law; for...

This has already been done many times before on the Forum. There are also many books that do the same. I'm sure you're not unaware of them.

As Clubv12 has already said, this is not the place for doing that.

[ClubV12]

WINDSOR, I'm not sure I understand your earlier question enough to comment on it. Could you clairify your concerns with Daniel 11:29-30?

Windsor says,

"The text makes it seem like the North was defeated for the pope is grieved and enraged when in fact upon hearing the North's victory, Pope Pius V burst into tears of joy."