Roosenberg SDA on Daniel 11

[ClubV12]

I kind of think Roosenbergs views are not all new, he's just applying logic and reason to what we see happening today. As did the pioneers, with limited success but applicable for their time. As we near the end events it becomes more clear as to who the players are. Islam was difficult to percieve as a major player in the mid 1800's. The same could be said for the Papacy, but Sister White, through divine revelation, could see even then how the Papacy would be a major player. I believe the "Muslim connection" was not revealed to her because God wanted to leave open to those people the idea that He would/could come soon.

In the early 1900's a NATIONAL USA Sunday law was being debated in Congress! Had the Lord come at that time, or even earlier, the players may have been different nations to some degree. The concept remains. Major physical battle of a world wide nature turning into a world wide spiritual battle. All revolving around the Papal power.

The players may well have been a part of the Civil War, wherein Europe considered taking a side! That could have drawn the entire world into the conflict. WW1, different players, same concept. WW2, same thing again, only the players names may change, the end result remains the same. As some point the "evil power" may have been defined as communism.

In our modern times, with a clearer view of history, Islam not only fits, it fits perfectly! No wonder before OUR time we saw this prophecy in dim light. No wonder Sister White didn't have a lot to say on the subject. It wasn't yet the fullness of time, all though it COULD have been!

Truth, being "progressive" is ever revealing itself. There are very few "details" of Roosenbergs presentation I question. In fact, I feel that he is leaving MUCH unsaid in order to be conservative and avoid any association with radicalism or fanaticism. Wise man in that regard. But it's not that hard to read between the lines and start to see in very real terms just how this thing could play out.

Libya, Egypt, other countries now calling for new leadership are a major part of this scenario. NATO and Libya? VERY interesting! The "Arab Spring" as some call it now, fits nicely into this scenario. A scenario that even a few years ago would have been all but impossible for anyone to see.

Iraq and Afganhistan are not YET controlled by the coming "beast power", what we are seeing RIGHT NOW is the "warm up". Iran will likely NOT "follow" the beast, leading to their destruction in a very real sense. I believe Irag will "follow" and be spared.

Mark in the forehead? Those who totally accept the fake christian concepts, sincerely mistaken, motivated by "God and Country" thinking. Bible thumping "good" christians. Mark in the hand? Acknowledging Sunday as a requirement to "follow" but not convinced or really caring for the christian concept or ideas. Just wanting to avoid destruction and go along with the crowd.

[John317]

Are you saying that this guy suddenly came up with a bunch of new arguments that nobody knew about two years ago?

No, he builds on what many have believed for hundreds of years. But the main part that he talks about is Daniel 11: 20 to Daniel 12: 3. It is likely you've never heard what he's saying about those verses.

[John317]

I kind of think Roosenbergs views are not all new, he's just applying logic and reason to what we see happening today. As did the pioneers, with limited success but applicable for their time. As we near the end events it becomes more clear as to who the players are.

Yes, I agree.

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Islam was difficult to percieve as a major player in the mid 1800's.

I think you're right in regard to the application of Daniel 11 to Islam, but Josiah Litch did see Islam in the prophecies of Rev. 9.

[John317]

... There are very few "details" of Roosenbergs presentation I question. In fact, I feel that he is leaving MUCH unsaid in order to be conservative and avoid any association with radicalism or fanaticism.

Just watched Part One again and I see nothing in it that I disagree with.

I'll watch the other parts again later in the day.

[ClubV12]

Good catch on Litch John.

"Litch predicted that the Ottoman Empire would lose power in August 1840. When on August 11, 1840, the Ottoman Empire accepted guarantees from the Great Powers, it was interpreted as a fulfillment of Bible prophecy and Litch's interpretation thereof."

As I recall, but I'm not sure, Roosenberg made referrence to the Ottoman empire loss as the end of the "2nd" woe. Prophecy fulfilled, right on target for Litchs time frame.

Were still waiting for the "third woe" which appears to be shaping up even as I type! Daniel 11 is on the verge of the very last aspect of it's fulfillment. As Sister White noted in her time, that it was "almost" finished. I was talking to someone today he wondered what "almost" or a "short time" meant. To who, I asked, "God?" He to whom a thousand years is like a day? Whats a hundred years to God? Or a few years? By whose reckoning shall we measure time, man or God?

A time of great trouble followed by a glorious everlasting rescue. Our bread and water shall be sure, or Saviour will stand by us, even unto death. No matter what, it's going to be marvelous because our reward is sure. Our trust is in Him. It always looks darkest just before the dawn. Let's get on with it, time to go home, no matter how you reckon the time frame.

[John317]

I don't think we should define "a short time" by a certain number years. A "short time" just might be a lot shorter for me than for other people-- if I die tonight or tomorrow.

On the other hand, if God were to tell us that it won't happen for 20, 30 more years, he knows that a lot of people would probably procrastinate until the last minute.

Also, God isn't waiting today for a certain time but for a certain spiritual condition among His people.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I kind of think Roosenbergs views are not all new, he's just applying logic and reason to what we see happening today. As did the pioneers, with limited success but applicable for their time. As we near the end events it becomes more clear as to who the players are.

Yes, I agree.

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Islam was difficult to percieve as a major player in the mid 1800's.

I think you're right in regard to the application of Daniel 11 to Islam, but Josiah Litch did see Islam in the prophecies of Rev. 9.

Wasn't the Ottoman empire an Islamic nation? Also Daniel 11:45 says the king of the north will build his temple in Jerusalem which Islam has done with the dome of the rock.

[ClubV12]

Daniel 45 is one of the last steps of the chronological order of Daniel. By the time we get to 45 the South King has been defeated or allied with the North. The North has fully occupied Israel and the return of Christ is very close.

As it concerns who is North and who is South, Roosenberg applies the principle of where the parties ORIGINATE from, not where they have progessed to. At one point the South King had progessed almost all the way into Germany, coming from the South.

"The roll of Israel" is covered in #4 of the 10 part evangelistic series aimed at the public.

Here is a link to the "ten", scroll down on the RIGHT SIDE to find #4:

http://www.islamvschristianity.org/index...tlink&id=28

All though, I prefer the three part series aimed at more advanced students (Adventists), a link to that series is in my first post on this thread.

[12tribes]

Daniel 45 is one of the last steps of the chronological order of Daniel. By the time we get to 45 the South King has been defeated or allied with the North. The North has fully occupied Israel and the return of Christ is very close.

As it concerns who is North and who is South, Roosenberg applies the principle of where the parties ORIGINATE from, not where they have progessed to. At one point the South King had progessed almost all the way into Germany, coming from the South.

"The roll of Israel" is covered in #4 of the 10 part evangelistic series aimed at the public.

Here is a link to the "ten", scroll down on the RIGHT SIDE to find #4:

http://www.islamvschristianity.org/index...tlink&id=28

All though, I prefer the three part series aimed at more advanced students (Adventists), a link to that series is in my first post on this thread.

[ClubV12]

Some dismiss Uriah Smith outright for all his "mistakes". It should be noted Sister White drew heavily on what Uriah had to offer when writing the Great Controversy. It's a mistake to dismiss the man entirely.

Now to his quotes. Uriah Smith did the best he had with the knowledge of history and present day events in his life. All in all, I think he did pretty good. We are told the Lord COULD have come shortly after 1844. Supposing that had happened, perhaps Uriah Smith wasn't that far off the mark for that time.

As to 1798 being the "end times" I think that is FAR more applicable to 1844. Of course at THAT TIME, 1844 and shortly after, it would have appeared the "end time" was 1798 and thus Daniel was ripe for interpretation. But from my study it did not take long for the "brethren" to move their position of "end time" from 1798 to 1844.

In fact I was thinking about what Uriah said concerning Turkey while listening to Roosenbergs discussion. Truth is progressive. I do believe Roosenberg is really onto something with this latest application of the ALWAYS problematic Daniel 11. Boy, I'd sure like to hear what he has to say on Daniel 12!!! Now there's a hot potato! :)

[12tribes]

Some dismiss Uriah Smith outright for all his "mistakes". It should be noted Sister White drew heavily on what Uriah had to offer when writing the Great Controversy. It's a mistake to dismiss the man entirely.

Now to his quotes. Uriah Smith did the best he had with the knowledge of history and present day events in his life. All in all, I think he did pretty good. We are told the Lord COULD have come shortly after 1844. Supposing that had happened, perhaps Uriah Smith wasn't that far off the mark for that time.

As to 1798 being the "end times" I think that is FAR more applicable to 1844. Of course at THAT TIME, 1844 and shortly after, it would have appeared the "end time" was 1798 and thus Daniel was ripe for interpretation. But from my study it did not take long for the "brethren" to move their position of "end time" from 1798 to 1844.

In fact I was thinking about what Uriah said concerning Turkey while listening to Roosenbergs discussion. Truth is progressive. I do believe Roosenberg is really onto something with this latest application of the ALWAYS problematic Daniel 11. Boy, I'd sure like to hear what he has to say on Daniel 12!!! Now there's a hot potato!

Daniel 11:36-39

(36) And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

(37) Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

(38) But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

(39) Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

I have heard quite a few in church relate these verses to the Papacy but to me the Papacy does not fit these verses because the term "the king shall do according to his will" is introducing a new power and in this case it is a new power at the time of the end as mentioned in verse 35 and it says in verse 37 "nor regard any god" that is not true of the Papacy while they may teach false it is not true of them.

What do you think?

[ClubV12]

Because we know and believe, correctly so, that the Papacy is the man behind the curtain we tend to get hung up on that and loose site of the bigger picture and sequence of events. We could cut right to the chase and say the King of the North is Satan and be done with it as well. But thats like reading the last chapter of the book first, you miss the details and cause confusion for those who do not know the plot. It's "to easy" to phrase it like that and dismiss the deeper meanings and reality of how this comes to pass.

For instance, when I say the "King of the North" is NATO, that IS essentially correct. But it completely by-passes the logic of how we got there! I might as well say the evil doer is the North King and close the book, as if it were done.

In the near term of the very last day events it IS appropriate to consider the very real nations and armies and the progession of events.

Roosenberg lays out his take on Daniel 11 very well in that regard, I think his presentation is worthy of careful consideration as to who the players are. We know this for sure: In the end, the North King is triumphant over all countries, lands and people, AFTER a very real physical war with "many ships" and armies that come like "whirl winds". It is THEN the "spiritual war" begins. Two different phases.

We can focus on the spiritual side of the war (the end result) or the real world application of how it shapes up. Personally, I prefer the real world aspect because by the time we get to the spiritual end of all things, it's to late for anybody to make a decision.

[ClubV12]

Verse by verse, according to Roosenbergs study guide, found here:

http://www.islamvschristianity.org/index...1&Itemid=62

Daneil 11 verse 22 to 39.

36 The counter reformation and the

stronger blasphemous statements of the

Authority of the Papacy.

37 Speaking of Celibacy

Pope as final authority.

38 Describes Cathedrals and the worship of

Mary.

39 The Papal practice of deciding who had

the right to rule a country within the Holy

Roman Empire.

[John317]

Thanks for posting that info, Club. That's very helpful.

[Windsor]

The time to accept and prepare for salvation is right now! I readily accept the idea that the little time of trouble could last for "years". We have been given instruction on how physically to be prepared for that time. Country home, grow your own food, etc. etc. Not possible for ALL, perhaps, but for those that can and do they represent an "ark of refuge" and should make room for those Saints who will need to flee at the last moment. Physical beds, rooms, basic provisions (like a water supply), an area to grow food, etc.

How does this coincide with where Ellen White states that provisions that we store up will simply be taken from us by the wicked?

[John317]

Uriah Smith was an important Adventist Pioneer, and although he made mistakes, he also wrote a lot of truth and was used of God in helping to raise up the SDA church. All the SDA commentaries on Daniel and Revelation are built somewhat on the foundation that Smith laid.

[John317]

... We have been given instruction on how physically to be prepared for that time. Country home, grow your own food, etc. etc. .... Physical beds, rooms, basic provisions (like a water supply), an area to grow food, etc.

Originally Posted By: Windsor

How does this coincide with where Ellen White states that provisions that we store up will simply be taken from us by the wicked?

Ellen White is talking about storing up food. ClubV12 is talking about living out in "the country" (i.e., not in the big cities) and having gardens and fruit trees. Ellen White herself has a lot to say about these kinds of things.

[ClubV12]

Thats right John, there is always a balance we need to find between "hoarding" and doing that which is practical and reasonable.

Even that "country home" with it's gardens and vineyard will have to be abandoned at some point. Before it's over, each of us personally will stand entirely alone. Without a single thread of earthy support in any regard.

Until then, I might want to ask those Mormon neighbors who have a "years supply of food" hoarded up for something for dinner. Some in the neighborhood won't be "asking" they will be "taking". Folks KNOW they have the food. I suspect the Mormon concept of storing provisions for at LEAST a year is close to what Sister White was talking about.

[Lysimachus]

I think I'm going to buy Roosenberg's book. What do you think? Should I buy his book? I mean, seriously, you guys know I don't like books, right??! XD

[Lysimachus]

I would say that in relation to all that Uriah Smith wrote, the errors he wrote probably constituted no more than a very small percentage, like no more than 2% of his writings on prophetic views.

[John317]

Exactly. That helps to put it in perspective. Shows he shouldn't be abandoned.

[John317]

Go for it, and tell us how you like it.

I have a feeling it won't be the first book in your library.

[John317]

.. Before it's over, each of us personally will stand entirely alone. Without a single thread of earthy support in any regard.

That is for sure!! The faithful will find themselves completely alone, and I wouldn't be surprised if most find even their families and other [former] church members against them. I think God is preparing us for that experience now.

[ClubV12]

Hmmm, I don't think I'll buy Roosenbergs book. A friend of mine got it a few days ago and we've been discussing it. He expressed the SAME THING I found when watching the 10 part evangelistic series videos. To much "basic" information and not enough "vega meat". There are about 3 of the 10 videos in that series that really deliver the message. The USA in prophecy, Islam and Israel in prophecy are the other two. The book is apparently the same way. If your already a decent prophecy person in understanding, then you might find it rather tedious.

I'm a video/audio guy myself, I like the three hour presentation.

Another Cliff Notes:

Islam attacks EUROPE! Possibly the Pope himself. Nuclear? Bio? Pope assinated? Something REALLY BIG and so "evil" the world has never seen. Who IS Islam? Not just Alqueda but Irag, Iran, Yemen, there are many potential players. WHEN (NOT if) the attack is severe enough, "Europe" with the blessing of the Pope, takes the gloves off. The USA (worlds policeman) stands with Europe and the Pope. Islam countries who do not "follow" the beast are destroyed. Period, wiped out, smoking rubble, they wanted a "Holy War", they got one! Imagine the full force of the allies and the USA being brought to bear in an all out assault, nothing holding them back. ALL options on the table AND in play! This thing could be over in days, weeks maybe, NOT months, when the fullness of time comes. Why do they do it? So the 12th Imam will come WITH JESUS to convert the world to Islam! Did you catch that, WITH JESUS, to convert the world to Islam. These are NOT "crazy people", they are attempting to fulfill their prophecy of the return of THEIR saviour! 12th Imam AND Jesus! When "chaos" reaches a certain level, the 12th Imam will return, so their prophecy states.

Iran is in DIRECT contact and consultation with the 12th Imam through some kind of "channeling" or "spiritual means". Iraq believes heavily in the 12th Imam prophecy. Many other Islam countries as well.

[12tribes]

I would say that in relation to all that Uriah Smith wrote, the errors he wrote probably constituted no more than a very small percentage, like no more than 2% of his writings on prophetic views.

I know he was wrong on the daily what else was he wrong on? He mentioned turkey as the king of the north but, would be better to mention Islam.