Butt out...

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You are trying to use human logic which does not work. Your logic as a sinful darkened human cannot fully understand God. You must take God at His Word when He says that He hates.....

If seems inconsistent to you that is because you are not able with your sinful puny brain to understand. You think that God cannot love and hate simultaneously. You as a human cannot do that so you think God is unable to that. You think God is puny like you are.

God says nothing is impossible for Him and that is FACT. Thus, God can, unlike you, love and hate simultaneously. You keep trying to "limit" God and make God just as puny as you are.

I'm not limiting God. I'm taking Him at His word as to who He is. His own description of Himself doesn't include hatred of people. Exodus 34:6

Your idea here reminds me very distinctly of the Calvinistic viewpoint. And, Calvinistic doctrine does great violence to the character of God. It makes Him into a sadistic, autocratic, arbitrary individual who delights in suffering. These are the very attributes of Satan and make millions abhor the very idea of God.

Now, I'm sure you'll tell me that this is once again human logic, but God tells us that we are to come together and reason with Him. He tells us to use our logical and reasoning powers to come to together with Him that we might understand Him. He also tells us that He will send the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, and that the fruit of the Spirit in our lives is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. He contrasts that with the works of the flesh which include hatred and all of the behaviors that flow from it, and which will exclude us from heaven.

Notice that there is no hatred in the fruit of the Spirit of God. It exists only in the human heart that has not been regenerated, or born again, through the work of the Holy Spirit. Only those who are partakers of the divine nature through the Holy Spirit are without hatred.

It seems to me that it is you, miz3, who is trying to make God "altogether such an one as thyself", and clothe Him with the attributes of sinful humanity and the devil.

I'm not going to stay and argue with you about this as both of us seem to be very well entrenched in our viewpoints and further discussion seems useless. I just thought a different viewpoint needed to be brought to light.

Your entitled to your opinion. However, your opinion is not in line with the Word of God. I gave the texts that explicitly state that God hates specific humans.

You can accept that or not. You apparently want to believe in only the parts of the Bible that suit your human created point of view.

[joeb]

What do you do with the God of the old testament?

Miz3 has been basically bringing out OT attributes of God's character.

We may not be under the old covenant anymore but we're still under God and he never changes - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.

The old testement was a perfect expression of God's character and the new testament is a perfect expression of God's character.

Like it or not the OT God was very violent and put people to death on a regular basis - he even did it in new testament times (Ananias and Sapphira?).

The clearest picture we have of who God is in the life and behavior of Jesus. It was to Him that the entire OT pointed, and Jesus and the Father are exactly alike in character. In Jesus' life and death we never see hatred expressed, and Jesus said, If you have seen me (discerned who I am), you have seen the Father (discerned who He is).

Yes, God had people killed in the OT and the NT. So what? I ask that not to be flippant, but to point out that it doesn't prove hatred of those individuals on His part.

God knows the end from the beginning for each individual. He also knows the exact state of each person's rejection or acceptance of Him and His influence on them at any given time. As He knows all this, and our time here on earth is a probationary time to give us a chance to accept or reject Him, God knows exactly what choices that individual had, or would have made. Thus, He will deal justly with those people who died at His commands. Those who would have followed Him will be saved, and those who would have ultimately chosen to reject Him won't. That's exactly the same that would have happened to them if they have lived out their natural lives. What is unjust or is inspired by hatred about that?

Remember, this life is not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is the life to come. This lesson is taught throughout the entire Bible.

When God promised Abraham that his descendents would be given the land of Canaan we are also given the reason the COI were to spend 400 years in Egypt, many of them in abject slavery. “In the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.” Genesis 15:16. God waited 400 years to fulfill His promise to Abraham and his descendents because of His mercy and love for those who were His enemies. Does this sound like a God of hatred who killed indiscriminately? He gave the Amorites another 400 years of probation at the expense of His chosen people. In the end it was the Amorites who brought destruction upon their own heads. They not only refused to allow the COI to pass through their land when they were asked politely for permission, they brought out their army to destroy the COI. If you will study the OT deeply you will find out that this is the same for every nation the COI destroyed.

Also, remember that in the instances of the OT God was protecting His people. Those nations He destroyed were at war with Him, His truth, and His people. They were out to kill and destroy God's own. Was He supposed to let the devil, through his proxies, destroy His people and the plan of salvation for all humanity by destroying the people through whom the Savior was to come?

As to Annanias and Sapphira, if someone is so steeped in sin that they think they can deliberately lie to God what is their spiritual condition? I can only say that that person has so rejected the calling of the Holy Spirit that they no longer recognize His voice and as a result have committed the unpardonable sin. So, what did their deaths change for them? Nothing. They were already beyond redemption and their lying, if unpunished, would have been a terrible influence on the early church and resulted in great evil.

[cheddar]

The clearest picture we have of who God is in the life and behavior of Jesus. It was to Him that the entire OT pointed, and Jesus and the Father are exactly alike in character. In Jesus' life and death we never see hatred expressed, and Jesus said, If you have seen me (discerned who I am), you have seen the Father (discerned who He is).

Yes, God had people killed in the OT and the NT. So what? I ask that not to be flippant, but to point out that it doesn't prove hatred of those individuals on His part.

God knows the end from the beginning for each individual. He also knows the exact state of each person's rejection or acceptance of Him and His influence on them at any given time. As He knows all this, and our time here on earth is a probationary time to give us a chance to accept or reject Him, God knows exactly what choices that individual had, or would have made. Thus, He will deal justly with those people who died at His commands. Those who would have followed Him will be saved, and those who would have ultimately chosen to reject Him won't. That's exactly the same that would have happened to them if they have lived out their natural lives. What is unjust or is inspired by hatred about that?

Remember, this life is not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is the life to come. This lesson is taught throughout the entire Bible.

When God promised Abraham that his descendents would be given the land of Canaan we are also given the reason the COI were to spend 400 years in Egypt, many of them in abject slavery. “In the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.” Genesis 15:16. God waited 400 years to fulfill His promise to Abraham and his descendents because of His mercy and love for those who were His enemies. Does this sound like a God of hatred who killed indiscriminately? He gave the Amorites another 400 years of probation at the expense of His chosen people. In the end it was the Amorites who brought destruction upon their own heads. They not only refused to allow the COI to pass through their land when they were asked politely for permission, they brought out their army to destroy the COI. If you will study the OT deeply you will find out that this is the same for every nation the COI destroyed.

Also, remember that in the instances of the OT God was protecting His people. Those nations He destroyed were at war with Him, His truth, and His people. They were out to kill and destroy God's own. Was He supposed to let the devil, through his proxies, destroy His people and the plan of salvation for all humanity by destroying the people through whom the Savior was to come?

As to Annanias and Sapphira, if someone is so steeped in sin that they think they can deliberately lie to God what is their spiritual condition? I can only say that that person has so rejected the calling of the Holy Spirit that they no longer recognize His voice and as a result have committed the unpardonable sin. So, what did their deaths change for them? Nothing. They were already beyond redemption and their lying, if unpunished, would have been a terrible influence on the early church and resulted in great evil.

I agree with most of what you said.

Do you think that Jesus loves(agape) or hates Satan?

[joeb]

I agree with most of what you said.

Do you think that Jesus loves(agape) or hates Satan?

I have no doubt that all members of the Godhead will be sorrowful over his death, but glad that they have made an end to sin and suffering. It has never been about Satan, personally. It has been about his ideas and influence and the principles he has chosen to live by.

[miz3]

Try these texts:

1. Psalm 11:5

"The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates."

I believe this explicitly states that God hates the wicked, the wicked human entity. This alone proves you wrong.

2. Proverbs 6:16-19.

"There are six things the LORD hates,

seven that are detestable to him:

17 haughty eyes,

a lying tongue,

hands that shed innocent blood,

18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,

feet that are quick to rush into evil,

19 a false witness who pours out lies

and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers."

Let's see God hates eyes, tongue, hands, heart, feet, that do evil. In addition God hates the "human who is a false witness". The whole human person. Also, God hates the "man" who stirs up dissension with other humans.

So God indeed does HATE THE HUMAN AS A WHOLE ENTITY.

3. Jeremiah 12:8.

"My inheritance has become to me like a lion in the forest. She roars at me; therefore I hate her."

Clear Word that God hates Israel (His inheritance), THAT IS HUMANS.

4. Hosea 9:15.

"Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious."

Again, God is stating that He hates the persons of Israel. That God HATES HUMANS.

5. Malachi 1:2-3.

"I have loved you,” says the LORD.

“But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’

“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” the LORD says. “Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

You state that God is not talking about Esau the person. Ok, lets give you that. However, God is talking about "human people" that He hates. God is stating that He hates every man, woman, child, and little tiny baby of the Esauites. That is each individual of that group God hates. They are "individual humans".

6. Romans 9:13

"Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Let's say again for your sake that this is not talking about the very person of Esau. Ok, we give you that again. Now reread the notes on Malachi chapter one above and see again that we are still talking about God hating humans including little tiny babies and those still in the womb.

You are clearly wrong because the Bible definitively states that God does indeed hate "humans" as individuals and as groups, regardless God still hates humans.

[skyblue888]

Oh how Satan loves it when difficult passages of Scripture are interpreted in such a way as to present God to the people clothed with his own attributes.

[007]

You state that we have all been in rebellion against God, and this is true. How does that refute what miz3 is saying? I believe that only shows that God does indeed hate us when we are exhibiting these sinful characteristics stated here. You ask why He would save us if He hated us? Why not, when His blood and righteousness cover the sins that we have committed and covered the things that He hates. His salvation of us does not prove that He didn't hate us when we were sinful.

You then state that God loves all of us, His children. Correct of course. Who is disputing this? And why is it seen as an argument against the point miz3 is making? Can God not love all of His children as stated in John 3, and hate sin and sinners as well?

You bring up the example of Jesus on earth and state that he did not hate. I think Matthew 21:12, 18 show a side of Jesus you seem to ignore. Again I ask, can God/Jesus not be love and also have hatred for sin/sinners? Is God/Jesus only one dimensional to love, forgiveness, gentleness, kindness, longsuffering, etc.? Does He not possess the characteristics of justice, discipline, anger, hatred, etc.? Why are we Christians embarrassed of these attributes of God/Jesus that are clearly on display in many parts of the Bible - (both testaments).

You correctly state that Isaiah 9:6 gives characteristics of both God and Jesus and that they are both equal and full members of the Trinity/Godhead. No one can qeustion the validity of your statement, but I again fail to see how that in any way is contradictory to what miz3 stated. I did not read where miz3 stated that one hated and the other did not.

Finally, I want to address the argument that tries to separate sin from sinners. We want to say that God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. This is a comfortable halfway position where we can recognize the obvious text from the Bible that tells us God hates, but allows us to hide from what we don't like and that is the fact that God hates sinners as well. When we are sinning we are inseparable from our sin. Those who will perish the final death have so identified themselves with their sin that the two cannot be separated. Our relationship with God is repaired when we stop sinning and receive His forgiveness. Until that happens God hates us, because we are part and parcel with the sinful actions we are committing. God hates sin, and sinners since those two things cannot be separated while in the act itself. This is uncomfortable because it strikes at each one of us. That discomfort is good. It should cause you to stop sinning. With the ease of simply brushing off that God hates my sin, but still loves me as if those are separable, we don't have to feel so bad about the sins we do commit. Before we get into a discussion of guilt and how God does not want us to be weighed down with that, let me say that is certainly so, after we have ceased our sins and repaired the relationship by receiving forgiveness. Until then, we should be guilt-ridden to the max so that we learn to stop the sins we commit, and if we are really honest with ourselves, LOVE! Sin is black, dark, disgusting, and repulsive. We should hate it as God does, and we should hate ourselves when we do it, as God does.

[007]

A more thorough reading of the Exodus 34:6 text by going on into verse 7 will show us that God also describes Himself thusly "maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation". This duality and apparent oxymoron of being both love and hate, both forgiveness and punishment, is a true picture of God. I see no one here trying to portray God as only a being of sadistic, autocratic, arbitrariness, but I do read those attempting to say that God does not have these attributes, that both in your own text of Exodus 34, and throughout the Bible we can see. Portraying God as only cruel hate is not a complete or true picture and indeed will turn many from Christ, and you are right that Satan loves this picture and its anti-God result. However, Satan also loves and is behind the false picture that God is only loving and forgiving and does not hate sin/sinners. This false picture will also turn many from the narrow path of truth as it teaches that sin and being a sinner is not something to be abhorred, and it allows people to take full advantage of not feeling the deep and passionate need to purge their lives of the horrible sin that is in them.

God does tell us to come together and reason with Him. Use of human logic, led by the Spirit can be a very valuable tool in understanding the Bible. However, ignoring the texts that miz3 brings up showing clearly that God not only hates sin, but hates the particular human entities that are sinners, is not reasoning with God, but rather reasoning against God. It is ignoring a part of the Bible that brings discomfort and trying to whitewash it away because we don't like it. No one has refuted these texts directly. Only brought up other ones that seem to contradict them. The "contradictory" texts simply show that God has more than one dimension to His character, not that the texts miz3 pointed out are inaccurate descriptions of God.

You say there is no hatred in the fruits of the Spirit. True enough. There also is not discipline, justice, punishment, or many other characteristics that I find it hard to imagine you would say are not part of God's character.

I am disappointed that you will not stay and discuss this topic further as the back and forth was quite enlightening. I will certainly take you at your word that you leave the discussion because you see it going nowhere, although most of my experience in life tells me that people say these words when in reality they refuse to continue discussion because they have been shown to be wrong and do not have the integrity to admit that openly. As this is not the case with you, I am glad, but am still disappointed the discussion appears to be over.

[joeb]

You state that we have all been in rebellion against God, and this is true. How does that refute what miz3 is saying? I believe that only shows that God does indeed hate us when we are exhibiting these sinful characteristics stated here. You ask why He would save us if He hated us? Why not, when His blood and righteousness cover the sins that we have committed and covered the things that He hates. His salvation of us does not prove that He didn't hate us when we were sinful.

You then state that God loves all of us, His children. Correct of course. Who is disputing this? And why is it seen as an argument against the point miz3 is making? Can God not love all of His children as stated in John 3, and hate sin and sinners as well?

You bring up the example of Jesus on earth and state that he did not hate. I think Matthew 21:12, 18 show a side of Jesus you seem to ignore. Again I ask, can God/Jesus not be love and also have hatred for sin/sinners? Is God/Jesus only one dimensional to love, forgiveness, gentleness, kindness, longsuffering, etc.? Does He not possess the characteristics of justice, discipline, anger, hatred, etc.? Why are we Christians embarrassed of these attributes of God/Jesus that are clearly on display in many parts of the Bible - (both testaments).

You correctly state that Isaiah 9:6 gives characteristics of both God and Jesus and that they are both equal and full members of the Trinity/Godhead. No one can qeustion the validity of your statement, but I again fail to see how that in any way is contradictory to what miz3 stated. I did not read where miz3 stated that one hated and the other did not.

Finally, I want to address the argument that tries to separate sin from sinners. We want to say that God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. This is a comfortable halfway position where we can recognize the obvious text from the Bible that tells us God hates, but allows us to hide from what we don't like and that is the fact that God hates sinners as well. When we are sinning we are inseparable from our sin. Those who will perish the final death have so identified themselves with their sin that the two cannot be separated. Our relationship with God is repaired when we stop sinning and receive His forgiveness. Until that happens God hates us, because we are part and parcel with the sinful actions we are committing. God hates sin, and sinners since those two things cannot be separated while in the act itself. This is uncomfortable because it strikes at each one of us. That discomfort is good. It should cause you to stop sinning. With the ease of simply brushing off that God hates my sin, but still loves me as if those are separable, we don't have to feel so bad about the sins we do commit. Before we get into a discussion of guilt and how God does not want us to be weighed down with that, let me say that is certainly so, after we have ceased our sins and repaired the relationship by receiving forgiveness. Until then, we should be guilt-ridden to the max so that we learn to stop the sins we commit, and if we are really honest with ourselves, LOVE! Sin is black, dark, disgusting, and repulsive. We should hate it as God does, and we should hate ourselves when we do it, as God does.

I've already answered your questions and comments as you bring nothing new to the table other than the instance of Christ running the money changers out of the temple. I'll give you a reference to read on that and just say this: So what? Running the moneychangers out of the temple and the words He had for them doesn't prove hatred on the part of Christ. It doesn't even come close. All it proves is that the priests desecration of the temple by conducting fraudulent business in it aroused anger in Christ because it obscured the character of God and practically destroyed the lessons the system of sacrifices was to be teaching about sin, the forgiveness of sin, and the coming Savior from sin.

From Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing study the chapters, The Beatitudes and The Spirituality of the Law. In them you will find very good information on God, who He is, and what He is like. In fact, the entire book is very, very good.

Also read Desire of Ages chapters In the Temple and The Temple Cleansed Again. These two chapters deal with both instances of Christ cleansing the temple. In them you will find no hatred on the part of Christ. The Desire of Ages, as a whole, is also a very good book from which to gain understanding into the character of God.

[cheddar]

Well said!

Not only has the gospel been perverted but God's character has been seriously distorted among professed Christians.

Hatred is not the most pleasant topic but it is part of God's character and we should acknowledge it.

The wisest man who ever lived said there is a time to love and a time to hate.

Quote:

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. Eccl. 3

[joeb]

Well said!

Not only has the gospel been perverted but God's character has been seriously distorted among professed Christians.

Hatred is not the most pleasant topic but it is part of God's character and we should acknowledge it.

The wisest man who ever lived said there is a time to love and a time to hate.

Quote:

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. Eccl. 3

Cheddar,

Do you agree with the following statement? God is love. If so, what does it mean to you?

[cheddar]

The word love in the new testament is agape which means selfless love - a love which only comes from God and we of ourselves cannot generate.

Human hatred is always rooted in selfishness - Someone hurts us and we hate them back and want to get even.

God's hatred has no selfishness in it - He hates sin with a perfect understanding of how evil it really is. People who cling to their sin eventually come to a point where they become identified with it.

I always like to prove everything from the bible but there was a vision that EGW related in early writings where she didn't give the warnings to others the way she was supposed to and she was taken in vision to see Jesus and he had a terrible frown on his face because of what she did. She describes the agony and separation that she felt from that frown. I think that's a small glimpse of what God's hatred is like.

[miz3]

I've already answered your questions and comments as you bring nothing new to the table other than the instance of Christ running the money changers out of the temple. I'll give you a reference to read on that and just say this: So what? Running the moneychangers out of the temple and the words He had for them doesn't prove hatred on the part of Christ. It doesn't even come close. All it proves is that the priests desecration of the temple by conducting fraudulent business in it aroused anger in Christ because it obscured the character of God and practically destroyed the lessons the system of sacrifices was to be teaching about sin, the forgiveness of sin, and the coming Savior from sin.

From Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing study the chapters, The Beatitudes and The Spirituality of the Law. In them you will find very good information on God, who He is, and what He is like. In fact, the entire book is very, very good.

Also read Desire of Ages chapters In the Temple and The Temple Cleansed Again. These two chapters deal with both instances of Christ cleansing the temple. In them you will find no hatred on the part of Christ. The Desire of Ages, as a whole, is also a very good book from which to gain understanding into the character of God.

I find it interesting that you, joeb, a SDA, put the writings of Ellen White above those of the Bible.

Thus, you accept what Ellen White says and ignore the parts of the Bible that do not agree with what Ellen White says.

That is fascinating, just fascinating.

[miz3]

The word love in the new testament is agape which means selfless love - a love which only comes from God and we of ourselves cannot generate.

Human hatred is always rooted in selfishness - Someone hurts us and we hate them back and want to get even.

God's hatred has no selfishness in it - He hates sin with a perfect understanding of how evil it really is. People who cling to their sin eventually come to a point where they become identified with it.

I always like to prove everything from the bible but there was a vision that EGW related in early writings where she didn't give the warnings to others the way she was supposed to and she was taken in vision to see Jesus and he had a terrible frown on his face because of what she did. She describes the agony and separation that she felt from that frown. I think that's a small glimpse of what God's hatred is like.

Well said!

[ClubV12]

I would frown upon my own son when he did something foolish, or worse than frown. How do you warp that into a concept that I hated him?

[Guest]

Excellent point, Club.

[007]

I am not attempting to bring a raft of new things to the table and am disappointed you are ducking what I am saying by not responding to it. I gave your post the respect of going point by point through it and giving my reaction. You refuse to respond in kind. My basic point was that you have done nothing to refute what miz3 has posted and the clearly worded texts he has submitted showing that God does hate, and doesn't just hate sin, but particular sinners as well. It is not me that I am really trying to get you to respond to, but those texts miz3 submitted. While you may brush aside what I say as nothing new, you cannot ignore the fact that you are unable to answer to what God says in these texts, except with other texts showing God is loving and kind. As I've stated before, this does not disprove anything in regards to answering whether God does or does not hate. It simply shows that God is love. Now come on. Answer the questions directly.

Does God hate?

Does God hate human beings at any time and in any fashion?

Does God hate only sin, or does He also hate sinners?

Are there any texts in the Bible that can show God doesn't hate?

I can agree that the story of Christ kicking the money changers out of the temple doesn't PROVE that God hates, but it does give evidence of Jesus' character that is a side you have been largely ignoring and portraying as non-existent. You yourself say in your latest post that Christ was angry. Does this not imply that He was displeased with their behavior? Is it reasonable to say He was upset with them? How about unhappy? Could I say that He disliked them and what they were doing? Do you agree with these statements? Is it simply putting in the word hate that bothers you? You mentioned before that God expects us to reason with Him, and I agreed that reason led by the Spirit is a powerful tool - (I just take issue with your logic that doesn't seem to be reasoning with God, but reasoning against God so as to see only a part of Him that you are comfortable with). Is it not reasonable to surmise that if He was angry with them, he hated what they were doing? Is it also not reasonable to think that a human who is so identified with his/her sins that the two are inseparable that God/Jesus would hate them as well? I additionally provided a text about Jesus and His cursing of the fig tree - (which was also new to the discussion) - that you chose to ignore.

Finally, I must agree with your recommended literature. Having read both of those books multiple times, I can from experience concur that they give fabulous pictures of God. There is another book that gives a good picture of God as well, and that is a book He wrote. We know it as the Bible. miz3 gave you some texts from that book which you nor anyone else has been able to grapple with head on. I challenge all readers of this post to deal with those texts directly and not continue to offer responses that dance around them.

[007]

How do you not wrap that into a concept of hate? If he does something foolish that will harm him and others that thing is at war with me and my wishes for the future good of my son. How can I not hate that foolish thing that attempts to destroy my son? And if my son identifies himself with that thing so intimately that they are one thing, how can I not also hate my son? What is so scary about that concept that you cannot deal with straight up?

[007]

Cheddar could not be more correct. I believe those who say God cannot hate, say that because they look at God's hate as if was similar to their own, when as Cheddar so wisely and clearly pointed out it is not. Cheddar, my brother/sister, may the Spirit continue to give you the courage to point out the truth, despite the stiff resistance you will assuredly face for doing so.

[ClubV12]

007, if you don't get it by now, like miz3, I won't waste my time casting pearls before swine.

I frown on my son for his mistake, and you actually CAN warp that into hate. Thats amazing... and pathetic. Now deal with that "straight up".

[ClubV12]

Argue with you miz3? Aint gonna happen.

[joeb]

I am not attempting to bring a raft of new things to the table and am disappointed you are ducking what I am saying by not responding to it. I gave your post the respect of going point by point through it and giving my reaction. You refuse to respond in kind. My basic point was that you have done nothing to refute what miz3 has posted and the clearly worded texts he has submitted showing that God does hate, and doesn't just hate sin, but particular sinners as well. It is not me that I am really trying to get you to respond to, but those texts miz3 submitted. While you may brush aside what I say as nothing new, you cannot ignore the fact that you are unable to answer to what God says in these texts, except with other texts showing God is loving and kind. As I've stated before, this does not disprove anything in regards to answering whether God does or does not hate. It simply shows that God is love. Now come on. Answer the questions directly.

Does God hate?

Does God hate human beings at any time and in any fashion?

Does God hate only sin, or does He also hate sinners?

Are there any texts in the Bible that can show God doesn't hate?

I can agree that the story of Christ kicking the money changers out of the temple doesn't PROVE that God hates, but it does give evidence of Jesus' character that is a side you have been largely ignoring and portraying as non-existent. You yourself say in your latest post that Christ was angry. Does this not imply that He was displeased with their behavior? Is it reasonable to say He was upset with them? How about unhappy? Could I say that He disliked them and what they were doing? Do you agree with these statements? Is it simply putting in the word hate that bothers you? You mentioned before that God expects us to reason with Him, and I agreed that reason led by the Spirit is a powerful tool - (I just take issue with your logic that doesn't seem to be reasoning with God, but reasoning against God so as to see only a part of Him that you are comfortable with). Is it not reasonable to surmise that if He was angry with them, he hated what they were doing? Is it also not reasonable to think that a human who is so identified with his/her sins that the two are inseparable that God/Jesus would hate them as well? I additionally provided a text about Jesus and His cursing of the fig tree - (which was also new to the discussion) - that you chose to ignore.

Finally, I must agree with your recommended literature. Having read both of those books multiple times, I can from experience concur that they give fabulous pictures of God. There is another book that gives a good picture of God as well, and that is a book He wrote. We know it as the Bible. miz3 gave you some texts from that book which you nor anyone else has been able to grapple with head on. I challenge all readers of this post to deal with those texts directly and not continue to offer responses that dance around them.

007,

I can see your point of how you viewed my reply to you. I can also see that I didn't explain myself very well, so the misunderstanding is on me.

What I should have said is that I would have given you the same answers I gave miz3 and cheddar so if you didn't agree with those posts there wasn't much more I could say to you.

God identifies Himself as gracious, merciful, longsuffering, goodness, kindness, etc.... That's who He says He is. It is fully Biblical. These are the attributes of someone who does not act on the impulses of hatred. They are the attributes of one who acts upon the impulses of the agape form of love.

Anything that seemingly opposes God's own description of Himself must be studied out very carefully. We must be able to harmonize the seeming contradiction. This subject, like many other areas of the Bible cannot be taken at first blush. One example is the destruction of the Amorites. At a surface reading God just destroys the Amorites because they didn't like the Isrealites and that made Him angry so He ordered their destruction from the impetus of being angry. As I showed elsewhere on this thread that surface reading is just the opposite of what is true. The same is true with God's "hatred" of people when it is studied deeply.

Assuming God has a love/hate relationship with His fallen creation leads us to the idea that God is somehow not an emotionally well being. Many humans have a love/hate relationship with their parents, families, spouses, etc.... But, in every case we can know that this stems from a badly broken relationship on both sides of that relationship and from emotionally broken people. We know this is not true of God.

God gives us every indication that He does not hate His fallen creation. He knows we are dust and that our time here is like a vapor that vanishes. He shows complete understanding of the fact that we, as a creation, have been betrayed and deceived into rebellion against Him. All of these things show a God who loves us, not a God who hates any of us.

Also, in the fruit of the Spirit hatred is not included. It is called a work of flesh. How, if the Holy Spirit is God, and He makes us partakers of the divine nature, can hatred not be included as part of the fruit of the Spirit? Being made partakers of the divine nature is the only way given in the Bible to escape the sin of hatred. Yet you say hatred is part of the divine nature.

I see this subject much like I see the subject of hell. A surface reading of the subject would give one to believe God loves to see suffering, and that His idea of justice for a kid who died at age 12 and had not accepted Christ as his Savior is deserving of an eternity of pain for nothing more than being born into an environment of sin, pain, and suffering. And who has been decieved by a being whose intellectual status is probably 1000's of times greater than his own. Nothing could be further from the truth, but a surface understanding of hell would certainly suggest it to be true.

I don't believe in a weak-kneed, sentimentalist God afraid to deal out justice as there can be no mercy if there is no justice. I believe in a God who is whole person, not a broken individual, which He must be if a surface study of God's "hatred" is to be believed.

[007]

007, if you don't get it by now, like miz3, I won't waste my time casting pearls before swine.

I frown on my son for his mistake, and you actually CAN warp that into hate. Thats amazing... and pathetic. Now deal with that "straight up".

I am swine? A pretty swift judgement from you after I've only posted 5 times, don't you think? Are you this brief and rough with anyone who disagrees with you? Perhaps we'll agree on many other topics and just not this one. You brush me off so quickly and harshly. Did I strike a nerve with something I said? Are you angry with miz3 for some previous history between you two I am not aware of, and you take that anger out on me? I have been nothing but respectful in my disagreement. I would think that if you truly wished to shed your light of truth upon me, and witness for Christ, you would attempt to share that truth with me to awaken me from the darkness where you seem to think I am. How can you just so easily dismiss me with such a short and passing interaction such as we have had together?

[007]

Originally Posted By: 007

I am not attempting to bring a raft of new things to the table and am disappointed you are ducking what I am saying by not responding to it. I gave your post the respect of going point by point through it and giving my reaction. You refuse to respond in kind. My basic point was that you have done nothing to refute what miz3 has posted and the clearly worded texts he has submitted showing that God does hate, and doesn't just hate sin, but particular sinners as well. It is not me that I am really trying to get you to respond to, but those texts miz3 submitted. While you may brush aside what I say as nothing new, you cannot ignore the fact that you are unable to answer to what God says in these texts, except with other texts showing God is loving and kind. As I've stated before, this does not disprove anything in regards to answering whether God does or does not hate. It simply shows that God is love. Now come on. Answer the questions directly.

Does God hate?

Does God hate human beings at any time and in any fashion?

Does God hate only sin, or does He also hate sinners?

Are there any texts in the Bible that can show God doesn't hate?

I can agree that the story of Christ kicking the money changers out of the temple doesn't PROVE that God hates, but it does give evidence of Jesus' character that is a side you have been largely ignoring and portraying as non-existent. You yourself say in your latest post that Christ was angry. Does this not imply that He was displeased with their behavior? Is it reasonable to say He was upset with them? How about unhappy? Could I say that He disliked them and what they were doing? Do you agree with these statements? Is it simply putting in the word hate that bothers you? You mentioned before that God expects us to reason with Him, and I agreed that reason led by the Spirit is a powerful tool - (I just take issue with your logic that doesn't seem to be reasoning with God, but reasoning against God so as to see only a part of Him that you are comfortable with). Is it not reasonable to surmise that if He was angry with them, he hated what they were doing? Is it also not reasonable to think that a human who is so identified with his/her sins that the two are inseparable that God/Jesus would hate them as well? I additionally provided a text about Jesus and His cursing of the fig tree - (which was also new to the discussion) - that you chose to ignore.

Finally, I must agree with your recommended literature. Having read both of those books multiple times, I can from experience concur that they give fabulous pictures of God. There is another book that gives a good picture of God as well, and that is a book He wrote. We know it as the Bible. miz3 gave you some texts from that book which you nor anyone else has been able to grapple with head on. I challenge all readers of this post to deal with those texts directly and not continue to offer responses that dance around them.

007,

I can see your point of how you viewed my reply to you. I can also see that I didn't explain myself very well, so the misunderstanding is on me.

What I should have said is that I would have given you the same answers I gave miz3 and cheddar so if you didn't agree with those posts there wasn't much more I could say to you.

God identifies Himself as gracious, merciful, longsuffering, goodness, kindness, etc.... That's who He says He is. It is fully Biblical. These are the attributes of someone who does not act on the impulses of hatred. They are the attributes of one who acts upon the impulses of the agape form of love.

Anything that seemingly opposes God's own description of Himself must be studied out very carefully. We must be able to harmonize the seeming contradiction. This subject, like many other areas of the Bible cannot be taken at first blush. One example is the destruction of the Amorites. At a surface reading God just destroys the Amorites because they didn't like the Isrealites and that made Him angry so He ordered their destruction from the impetus of being angry. As I showed elsewhere on this thread that surface reading is just the opposite of what is true. The same is true with God's "hatred" of people when it is studied deeply.

Assuming God has a love/hate relationship with His fallen creation leads us to the idea that God is somehow not an emotionally well being. Many humans have a love/hate relationship with their parents, families, spouses, etc.... But, in every case we can know that this stems from a badly broken relationship on both sides of that relationship and from emotionally broken people. We know this is not true of God.

God gives us every indication that He does not hate His fallen creation. He knows we are dust and that our time here is like a vapor that vanishes. He shows complete understanding of the fact that we, as a creation, have been betrayed and deceived into rebellion against Him. All of these things show a God who loves us, not a God who hates any of us.

Also, in the fruit of the Spirit hatred is not included. It is called a work of flesh. How, if the Holy Spirit is God, and He makes us partakers of the divine nature, can hatred not be included as part of the fruit of the Spirit? Being made partakers of the divine nature is the only way given in the Bible to escape the sin of hatred. Yet you say hatred is part of the divine nature.

I see this subject much like I see the subject of hell. A surface reading of the subject would give one to believe God loves to see suffering, and that His idea of justice for a kid who died at age 12 and had not accepted Christ as his Savior is deserving of an eternity of pain for nothing more than being born into an environment of sin, pain, and suffering. And who has been decieved by a being whose intellectual status is probably 1000's of times greater than his own. Nothing could be further from the truth, but a surface understanding of hell would certainly suggest it to be true.

I don't believe in a weak-kneed, sentimentalist God afraid to deal out justice as there can be no mercy if there is no justice. I believe in a God who is whole person, not a broken individual, which He must be if a surface study of God's "hatred" is to be believed.

Thank you for this reply.

I believe all here agree that God is gracious, merciful, longsuffering, goodness, kindness, etc. Someone chime in if they don't agree, but I think we will get 100% consensus on that point. The only question remains is if God can be these things and also hate.

I agree that we must harmonize out seeming contradictions in the Bible, such as this one about God's character. You choose to harmonize that seeming contradiction by believing at face value and on the surface the texts that show the loving attributes of God's character. You like these. But you explain away the other texts - (also God's description of Himself in His book, just as much as the completely biblical ones that show the attributes you like) - by saying they need a deeper understanding of the true meaning. Why can't they simply mean what they say and be taken at face value as well? I choose to harmonize this seeming contradiction as well, but just differently than you. I believe that what appears to be a contradiction is indeed not. God is Love. God is also hatred for evil. God loves. God hates sin/sinners. I think what at first on the surface appears to be a contradiction, is when studied deeper and more fully not one at all. It is an example to us about the proper placement of our love, and the proper placement of our hatred.

Also, I would quarrel with your comparison of God with a human being displaying similar characteristics. We clearly don't operate on the same plane as He does, so I think this comparison breaks down. I don't think the fact that God can be both Love and that He can hate show a broken or dysfunctional personality. I think it shows He properly knows when and to whom to show each attribute. Rather than dysfunction, it shows functionality at its highest performance.

I already mentioned that I don't think the Fruits of the Spirit was intended to be an exhaustive list of all of God's characteristics.

As to the subject of hell. I think hell's eternity or not may perhaps be debatable, but I think your example of some mostly innocent and unfortunate 12-year old is a little disingenuous. This child seems to be damned to hell through absolutely no fault of his own. I would contend that a everlasting or finite hellfire are both unjust to this poor soul. I also contend that no such example will ever exist. The wicked who are burned in hell will all be deserving of that punishment. There will be no innocent or unfortunate ones there.

I think your God is too small. You do not give Him credit for the ability to be all loving and still have hatred for sin/sinners. You see I think it is indeed the fact that God is love that causes Him to hate - (another apparent contradiction on the surface). He loves us so much that He hates the sin that He sees destroying us. He loves us so much that He hates the sinners who are destroying themselves and the rest of the creation around them that He loves.

Tell me Joeb, how do you feel about the sin in your own life? I think I can safely assume you do not like it. Is it a stretch to then say that you hate it? Do you hate that you continually do it, and are a slave to it? Why would God not feel that same hatred for your sins since He loves you even more than you love yourself? Somebody who has true, deep, passionate, Agape love, will hate anything that attempts to hurt the object of that love. True?

[joeb]

007,

It is you, I think, who believes in too small a God.

Look at the facts.

1. God created us. We are His children. Even decent human parents do not hate their children because they disobey. They may have to kick their child out of their home because of violent behavior or the like, but they still don't hate that child. They still love that child.

2. God has an intimate knowledge of how much greater our foe, the devil, is in intelligence than we are. He understands just how much we are underdogs in a battle of wits with him. We go into a battle of wits with our enemy unarmed. Compared to him we are extremely developmentally disabled. We are very stupid in comparison

3. God knows that our only hope is to believe and trust Him, yet we are born into an environment which completely distorts our image of Him. We can't even imagine what it is like to live with Him in heaven and in a heavenly atomosphere because it is so far outside the paradigm of our entire experience.

4. God so loved us, and understood how helpless we are in this fight, that He gave us His Son for eternity, knowing that the majority of us would despise the sacrifice both of them made. And they would have made the same sacrifice if only person would ultimately accept the their gift.

5. God knows that when our first parents were deceived something in us changed so that we are unable obey Him on our own. Something in our nature changed so that obedience to Him is an impossibility without Him inserting Himself into our lives and reality, and making us partakers of His own nature.

6. God understands that only after the great deceiver is gone and we have been given new bodies will we be able to obey Him on our dime, so to speak.

All of this, and yet you want me to believe God hates His fallen creation, personally? That God is so small a person that He is like the worst of human parents, and even they are minority among human parents and are pretty much despised by the human race.

The evidence is all against such thoughts. The Father's Son, under the most intense experience of rejection and abuse, didn't hate. He was just the opposite. He asked that His tormenters be forgiven because He realized that they didn't understand what they were doing. And, He forgave a person whose life had been given over to harming his fellow man. As His nature is exactly like His Father's we see who the Father is, and how the Father responds to sinners.

When God will finally rid the universe of all sinners it is so outside His nature the Bible calls it His "strange act". If God hated those who rejected Him it would be his delight to punish them for that is the kind of thing hatred produces, but it isn't. It is foreign to Him, but something which it is His unpleasant duty to do to put an end to the pain, suffering and cruelty that sin brings in its wake.

I do believe you have the concepts of "big" and "small" people reversed. It is the "small" person who returns hate for hate, dislike for dislike, rejection for rejection. It is the "big" person who looks to understand the situation and rises above someone else's problems and their negative attitude and behavior toward them.

If I hated you for your "quarrel" with me, I would be a very small person indeed. Just so, God would be a very small person for hating me, you, or anyone else because we are born as slaves to rebellion against Him....

If you reply and don't see a response from me, I'm not ignoring you. I'm in the middle of moving, and where I'm going there won't be any usable internet access. Any response will have to come when I visit a library or some place with free internet access.