Should we show an interest in the OWS movement?

[Naomi]

I'm interested in seeing who is paying these precious snowflakes.

[doug yowell]

John I do agree that we shouldn't get involved with violence or movements that are just interested in destroying. Having said that we should stand up for injustice's. I do agree with the movement but if it gets to where its really not accomplishing what it set out to do, than we have a chose to make.

The OWS movement demonstrates against no injustice.Why is it unjust for some people to make gobs of money while others don't? The failure of some of those wealthy to willingly share more of their earnings with the government or those who make less is not a matter of justice unless one believes that a person's life consists in the things which he possesses. The very greed that so many of these protestors decry is motivated by envy of the lifestyle that the rich are able to live. The failure of the rich to provide more of their income for the benefit of those who have less may sometimes be uncaring, unmerciful, and unChristian,but,since there is no moral right(need)to be well off, it is not unjust.

[cardw]

The failure of the rich to provide more of their income for the benefit of those who have less may sometimes be uncaring, unmerciful, and unChristian,but,since there is no moral right(need)to be well off, it is not unjust.

Actually there is a moral injustice. The phrase "If you don't work, you don't eat." was first directed at the rich early in this country's history because the rich weren't working because they felt they could buy everything from the poor.

To the first settlers this looked more like slavery than justice.

In the last 10 years 70 percent of jobs in this county has been in the financial sector which provides no product. It basically leeches its income off of everyone else's labor.

It is this class that work on Wall Street. They are the ones that should be taxed. Right now they, who provide no product, have the greatest tax advantages and are making money at rates unheard of in the history of wall street.

To add to this, when they made a bad decision, they got bailed out. They got welfare.

If you want to keep getting screwed, keep supporting this propaganda you keep spouting.

[cardw]

As a church and as a people, SDAs shouldn't be associated with this kind of movement. My understanding of the New Testament makes it impossible for me to envision Jesus taking part in it or suggesting that His followers ought to get involved in it.

You know there was this movement that burned a whole bunch of people at the stake. They tortured and killed everyone that disagreed with them. They invaded the middle east and killed even their own believers and said, "Let God sort them out." They bomb doctors offices and promote death penalties for homosexuals. There's a pretty long list of horrible things they have done and continue to do.

I happen to believe that we shouldn't be associated with that movement either.

When we compare atrocities, Christians make the OWS movement look like choir boys.

[Jeannieb43]

I'm not so sure how this could be seen as a "leaderless movement."

But i don't see any need to show an interest, as in us participating. It's an odd way to "preach the gospel" to be sure.

[John317]

The SDA church clearly missed the call of Christ when it came to the civil rights movement. He had to use the sheep in other folds to get things done.

The SDA Church shouldn't get involved in every good cause. Our church was raised up by God for some specific purposes, primarily to proclaim the Three Angels' Messages. There are many other things that need to be done on this earth, including the work done by organizations such as the Salvation Army, but that doesn't mean God wants the SDA Church to do them. You are right that God uses the sheep in other folds to get many of those things done.

This is according to the revelation that God has shown us through His prophet, Ellen White.

[John317]

As a church and as a people, SDAs shouldn't be associated with this kind of movement. My understanding of the New Testament makes it impossible for me to envision Jesus taking part in it or suggesting that His followers ought to get involved in it.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You know there was this movement that burned a whole bunch of people at the stake. They tortured and killed everyone that disagreed with them. They invaded the middle east and killed even their own believers and said, "Let God sort them out." They bomb doctors offices and promote death penalties for homosexuals. There's a pretty long list of horrible things they have done and continue to do.

I happen to believe that we shouldn't be associated with that movement either.

When we compare atrocities, Christians make the OWS movement look like choir boys.

None of that has anything to do with the SDA Church or with the commands of Jesus Christ to the church.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: John317

As a church and as a people, SDAs shouldn't be associated with this kind of movement. My understanding of the New Testament makes it impossible for me to envision Jesus taking part in it or suggesting that His followers ought to get involved in it.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You know there was this movement that burned a whole bunch of people at the stake. They tortured and killed everyone that disagreed with them. They invaded the middle east and killed even their own believers and said, "Let God sort them out." They bomb doctors offices and promote death penalties for homosexuals. There's a pretty long list of horrible things they have done and continue to do.

I happen to believe that we shouldn't be associated with that movement either.

When we compare atrocities, Christians make the OWS movement look like choir boys.

None of that has anything to do with the SDA Church or with the commands of Jesus Christ to the church.

Oh, the SDA church isn't a Christian organization?

You seem to want to paint a broad brush against the OWS movement, why not Christianity?

[phkrause]

Actually there is a moral injustice. The phrase "If you don't work, you don't eat." was first directed at the rich early in this country's history because the rich weren't working because they felt they could buy everything from the poor.

To the first settlers this looked more like slavery than justice.

In the last 10 years 70 percent of jobs in this county has been in the financial sector which provides no product. It basically leeches its income off of everyone else's labor.

It is this class that work on Wall Street. They are the ones that should be taxed. Right now they, who provide no product, have the greatest tax advantages and are making money at rates unheard of in the history of wall street.

To add to this, when they made a bad decision, they got bailed out. They got welfare.

If you want to keep getting screwed, keep supporting this propaganda you keep spouting.

Exactly cardw, I have no problem with people making money and/or how rich they are. Don't want anyone else's money. Its all the loop holes that certain people take advantage of, so they don't need to pay there fair share. Those that don't have the advantage's wind up paying the biggest amount of the taxes.

[lazarus]

The SDA Church shouldn't get involved in every good cause. Our church was raised up by God for some specific purposes, primarily to proclaim the Three Angels' Messages. There are many other things that need to be done on this earth, including the work done by organizations such as the Salvation Army, but that doesn't mean God wants the SDA Church to do them. You are right that God uses the sheep in other folds to get many of those things done.

God wants us as SDA's to be involved in the work of God in all its manifestations on planet earth. This notion that the proclamation of the 3AM precludes the kind of work that the Sally Army does is unbalanced. God uses other sheep because our parochialism has blinded us to the full spectrum of Gods work.

[Overaged]

?

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You know there was this movement that burned a whole bunch of people at the stake. They tortured and killed everyone that disagreed with them. They invaded the middle east and killed even their own believers and said, "Let God sort them out." They bomb doctors offices and promote death penalties for homosexuals. There's a pretty long list of horrible things they have done and continue to do.

I happen to believe that we shouldn't be associated with that movement either.

When we compare atrocities, Christians make the OWS movement look like choir boys.

None of that has anything to do with the SDA Church or with the commands of Jesus Christ to the church.

I'm puzzled! That has everything to do with the last day message. If we were to more honestly admit the reality of "Christianity" as it has been practiced by Christian nations we would find greater access to peoples hearts. Instead because of our patriotism and cultural attachments we are slaves to a mainstream rosy narrative.

[lazarus]

I'm interested in seeing who is paying these precious snowflakes.

Nothing new under the sun. They said Communists were paying MLK and now Soros pays OWS.

[phkrause]

Is that pumpkin, OA?

[Overaged]

LOL, you bet!

[John317]

The SDA Church shouldn't get involved in every good cause. Our church was raised up by God for some specific purposes, primarily to proclaim the Three Angels' Messages. There are many other things that need to be done on this earth, including the work done by organizations such as the Salvation Army, but that doesn't mean God wants the SDA Church to do them. You are right that God uses the sheep in other folds to get many of those things done.

Originally Posted By: lazarus

God wants us as SDA's to be involved in the work of God in all its manifestations on planet earth. This notion that the proclamation of the 3AM precludes the kind of work that the Sally Army does is unbalanced. God uses other sheep because our parochialism has blinded us to the full spectrum of Gods work.

You're contradicting the writings of Ellen White, Lazarus. Read what she says about the SDA church getting involved in the kind of work that the Salvation Army does. She says our church isn't called by God to do that sort of work.

Quote:

The Lord has marked out our way of working. As a people we are not to imitate and fall in with Salvation Army methods. This is not the work that the Lord has given us to do. Neither is it our work to condemn them and speak harsh words against them. There are precious, self-sacrificing souls in the Salvation Army. We are to treat them kindly. There are in the Army honest souls, who are sincerely serving the Lord and who will see greater light, advancing to the acceptance of all truth. The Salvation Army workers are trying to save the neglected, downtrodden ones. Discourage them not. Let them do that class of work by their own methods and in their own way. But the Lord has plainly pointed out the work that Seventh-day Adventists are to do. Camp meetings and tent meetings are to be held. The truth for this time is to be proclaimed. A decided testimony is to be borne. And the discourses are to be so simple that children can understand them. {8T 184}

[John317]

Do you think that the following is also something the SDA church should get involved in, as part of the last-day message?

Quote:

"Occupy Wall Street" is heading to the Super Bowl.

Labor groups are teaming up with the Occupy movement for a series of high-profile protests in Indianapolis, where Super Bowl XLVI will take place this Sunday. The demonstrations are centered on Indiana's new right-to-work law, which critics say will hamstring unions and leave the state's workers in a vulnerable position.

The Indiana chapter of the AFL-CIO, one of the largest union federations in the country, will be passing out literature at and around Lucas Oil Stadium, the site of Sunday's game, according to ThinkProgress. The hotel workers' union UNITE HERE will stage a demonstration on Friday, and local Occupy activists are said to be planning a protest of their own -- an extension of the rabble-rousing that took place this past weekend, when union members and Occupy demonstrators joined forces for several marches and rallies around Indianapolis.

Indiana's new law, which makes it impossible for employers to require their workers to join a union or pay membership dues, is only the latest in a string of recent setbacks for American labor. Union membership has fallen off dramatically since the 1980s, and 2009 and 2010 saw especially steep declines in participation. (In what some analysts say is likely not a coincidence, paychecks for most Americans have barely grown since the 1980s.)

Over the past year, conservative politicians from Wisconsin to Arizona have proposed or passed laws that aim to reduce the power of organized labor, and Republicans at the federal level have been voicing steadily louder opposition to the National Labor Relations Board, claiming that the agency advocates for union members in a way that harms the interests of the business community.

Labor advocates say that Indiana's right-to-work law, which Governor Mitch Daniels signed on Wednesday, will erode the political and financial strength of unions in that state. Supporters of the law say it will attract more companies to Indiana and kick-start job growth. Indiana is the 23rd state with a right-to-work law on the books, and the first in the Rust Belt, the central-northeastern part of the country historically associated with heavy industry.

This weekend's protests are part of what right-to-work opponents call an ongoing campaign to get the law repealed. They also represent a continuation of the alliance between organized labor and the Occupy movement, groups that share an interest in preserving working- and middle-class power. The visibility of Occupy protesters has dropped somewhat in recent months, with more and more cities taking measures to dispel long-term encampments, though the movement is still conspicuously active in New York, D.C., Miami, Oakland and other places.

Compare the above with what Ellen White wrote concerning the labor unions

Quote:

Labor Trouble Ahead

The trades unions will be one of the agencies that will bring upon this earth a time of trouble such as has not been since the world began.--Letter 200, 1903. {CL 10.2}

Conflicts Between Trade Confederacies and Labor Unions

The work of the people of God is to prepare for the events of the future, which will soon come upon them with blinding force. In the world gigantic monopolies will be formed. Men will bind themselves together in unions that will wrap them in the folds of the enemy. A few men will combine to grasp all the means to be obtained in certain lines of business. Trades unions will be formed, and those who refuse to join these unions will be marked men.--Letter 26, 1903. {CL 10.3}

Quote:

For years I have been given special light that we are not to center our work in the cities. The turmoil and confusion that fill these cities, the conditions brought about by the labor unions and the strikes, would prove a great hindrance to our work. Men are seeking to bring those engaged in the different trades under bondage to certain unions. This is not God's planning, but the planning of a power that we should in no wise acknowledge. God's Word is fulfilling; the wicked are binding themselves up in bundles ready to be burned. {CL 11.2}

We are now to use all our entrusted capabilities in giving the last warning message to the world. In this work we are to preserve our individuality. We are not to unite with secret societies or with trades unions. We are to stand free in God, looking constantly to Christ for instruction. All our movements are to be made with a realization of the importance of the work to be accomplished for God.-- Testimonies, vol. 7, p. 84. (1902) {CL 11.3}

In Disregard of the Decalogue

These unions are one of the signs of the last days. Men are binding up in bundles ready to be burned. They may be church members, but while they belong to these unions, they cannot possibly keep the commandments of God; for to belong to these unions means to disregard the entire Decalogue. {CL 11.4}

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." These words sum up the whole duty of man. They mean the consecration of the whole being, body, soul, and spirit, to God's service. How can men obey these words, and at the same time pledge themselves to support that which deprives their neighbors of freedom of action? And how can men obey these words, and form combinations that rob the poorer classes of the advantages

12

which justly belong to them, preventing them from buying or selling, except under certain conditions?--Letter 26, 1903. {CL 11.5}

Unions That Are Formed or Shall Be Formed

Those who claim to be the children of God are in no case to bind up with the labor unions that are formed or that shall be formed. This the Lord forbids. Cannot those who study the prophecies see and understand what is before us?--Letter 201, 1902.

[Overaged]

Where does she say this John 317?

[Woody]

Quote:

God wants us as SDA's to be involved in the work of God in all its manifestations on planet earth. This notion that the proclamation of the 3AM precludes the kind of work that the Sally Army does is unbalanced. God uses other sheep because our parochialism has blinded us to the full spectrum of Gods work.

Excellent comment Laz

Others would have us go back to the days of "Camp meetings and tent meetings" and not deviate from that.

[John317]

Where does she say this John 317?

See the quote on post #520057.

Quote:

The work of the people of God is to enlighten the world, in accordance with the directions given in the fifty-eighth chapter of Isaiah. Here is presented the plan of work which is to be carried on in every place where the truth takes hold of minds and hearts. In connection with the proclamation of the message is to be done the work of relieving families who are in distress. Those who take their position on the Lord's side are to see in Seventh-day Adventists a warm-hearted, self-denying, self-sacrificing people, who cheerfully and gladly minister to the needy. Especially are those who suffer because they have had moral courage to accept the truth, to be helped. Those who are cast out are to receive attention. {1MR 224.3}

But the work of providing for all the depraved, all the drunkards, and all the prostitutes, has not and never will be given by the Lord to Seventh-day Adventists. . . . {1MR 224.4}

God has given direction that sanitariums ought to be established in different places. These institutions are to be His agencies for reaching a class of people that nothing else will reach. In these instrumentalities the light

225

of truth is to burn brightly. . . . {1MR 224.5}

Quote:

The "holiness people" and the Salvation Army have a great deal of what Paul denominates "bodily exercise," that "profiteth little." They follow impressions and claim to be taught of the Spirit; and like the fanatics that troubled Luther, they place these impressions above the written word of God, while they trample upon the divine law because their hearts are not in harmony with its precepts. The Spirit and the word agree. The Spirit of Christ leads into all truth; but there is in these spirit-taught ones an enmity against the plainest statements of the Bible. The spirit that guides them leads to the believing of lies rather than the truth, showing that their teacher is the great master spirit that "worketh in the children of disobedience." {ST, February 26, 1885 par. 5}

Quote:

God never set you to engage in gathering means, and in doing the work that the Salvation Army are doing. Let them work in that line, and you attend to your appointed work, and not spend God's means in channels that are not doing the work of God for this time. . . . {4MR 432.2}

Your voice is working against the success and triumph of the truth in these last days. Our God has a message for His people represented by an angel flying through heaven proclaiming the last message to a fallen world. What is the angel proclaiming? The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This represents that God's messengers are to hold this banner high, and with no feeble voice proclaim to a perishing world the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. . . .

-433- {4MR 432.3}

You are leading away from the very work to be done. You are presenting obstructions by diverting workers and means in a direction that God has never appointed. . . . {4MR 433.1}

God has plainly revealed to me that our faith as Seventh-day Adventists is to stand before the world clear and distinct in all our institutions. Letter 45, 1900, pp. 1-8. (To Dr. J. H. Kellogg, March 12, 1900.)

[Woody]

Quote:

These unions are one of the signs of the last days. Men are binding up in bundles ready to be burned.

This is an interesting comment John317.

[Overaged]

So by posting such quotes John 317, are you saying that it is a teaching of the Seventh-day Adventist Church that we do not minister to "all the depraved, all the drunkards, and all the prostitutes,?"

[BobRyan]

We should show an interest in saving the souls of those that show up for OWS style events.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Compare the above with what Ellen White wrote concerning the labor unions

Quote:

Labor Trouble Ahead

The trades unions will be one of the agencies that will bring upon this earth a time of trouble such as has not been since the world began.--Letter 200, 1903. {CL 10.2}

Conflicts Between Trade Confederacies and Labor Unions

The work of the people of God is to prepare for the events of the future, which will soon come upon them with blinding force. In the world gigantic monopolies will be formed. Men will bind themselves together in unions that will wrap them in the folds of the enemy. A few men will combine to grasp all the means to be obtained in certain lines of business. Trades unions will be formed, and those who refuse to join these unions will be marked men.--Letter 26, 1903. {CL 10.3}

Quote:

For years I have been given special light that we are not to center our work in the cities. The turmoil and confusion that fill these cities, the conditions brought about by the labor unions and the strikes, would prove a great hindrance to our work. Men are seeking to bring those engaged in the different trades under bondage to certain unions. This is not God's planning, but the planning of a power that we should in no wise acknowledge. God's Word is fulfilling; the wicked are binding themselves up in bundles ready to be burned. {CL 11.2}

We are now to use all our entrusted capabilities in giving the last warning message to the world. In this work we are to preserve our individuality. We are not to unite with secret societies or with trades unions. We are to stand free in God, looking constantly to Christ for instruction. All our movements are to be made with a realization of the importance of the work to be accomplished for God.-- Testimonies, vol. 7, p. 84. (1902) {CL 11.3}

In Disregard of the Decalogue

These unions are one of the signs of the last days. Men are binding up in bundles ready to be burned. They may be church members, but while they belong to these unions, they cannot possibly keep the commandments of God; for to belong to these unions means to disregard the entire Decalogue. {CL 11.4}

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." These words sum up the whole duty of man. They mean the consecration of the whole being, body, soul, and spirit, to God's service. How can men obey these words, and at the same time pledge themselves to support that which deprives their neighbors of freedom of action? And how can men obey these words, and form combinations that rob the poorer classes of the advantages

12

which justly belong to them, preventing them from buying or selling, except under certain conditions?--Letter 26, 1903. {CL 11.5}

Unions That Are Formed or Shall Be Formed

Those who claim to be the children of God are in no case to bind up with the labor unions that are formed or that shall be formed. This the Lord forbids. Cannot those who study the prophecies see and understand what is before us?--Letter 201, 1902.

Thank you for sharing those quotes John.

Very enlightening!

Very applicable to these last days.

in Christ,

Bob

[olger]

Do you think that the following is also something the SDA church should get involved in, as part of the last-day message?

Quote:

"Occupy Wall Street" is heading to the Super Bowl.

Labor groups are teaming up with the Occupy movement for a series of high-profile protests in Indianapolis, where Super Bowl XLVI will take place this Sunday. The demonstrations are centered on Indiana's new right-to-work law, which critics say will hamstring unions and leave the state's workers in a vulnerable position.

The Indiana chapter of the AFL-CIO, one of the largest union federations in the country, will be passing out literature at and around Lucas Oil Stadium, the site of Sunday's game, according to ThinkProgress. The hotel workers' union UNITE HERE will stage a demonstration on Friday, and local Occupy activists are said to be planning a protest of their own -- an extension of the rabble-rousing that took place this past weekend, when union members and Occupy demonstrators joined forces for several marches and rallies around Indianapolis.

Indiana's new law, which makes it impossible for employers to require their workers to join a union or pay membership dues, is only the latest in a string of recent setbacks for American labor. Union membership has fallen off dramatically since the 1980s, and 2009 and 2010 saw especially steep declines in participation. (In what some analysts say is likely not a coincidence, paychecks for most Americans have barely grown since the 1980s.)

Over the past year, conservative politicians from Wisconsin to Arizona have proposed or passed laws that aim to reduce the power of organized labor, and Republicans at the federal level have been voicing steadily louder opposition to the National Labor Relations Board, claiming that the agency advocates for union members in a way that harms the interests of the business community.

Labor advocates say that Indiana's right-to-work law, which Governor Mitch Daniels signed on Wednesday, will erode the political and financial strength of unions in that state. Supporters of the law say it will attract more companies to Indiana and kick-start job growth. Indiana is the 23rd state with a right-to-work law on the books, and the first in the Rust Belt, the central-northeastern part of the country historically associated with heavy industry.

This weekend's protests are part of what right-to-work opponents call an ongoing campaign to get the law repealed. They also represent a continuation of the alliance between organized labor and the Occupy movement, groups that share an interest in preserving working- and middle-class power. The visibility of Occupy protesters has dropped somewhat in recent months, with more and more cities taking measures to dispel long-term encampments, though the movement is still conspicuously active in New York, D.C., Miami, Oakland and other places.

Compare the above with what Ellen White wrote concerning the labor unions

Quote:

Labor Trouble Ahead

The trades unions will be one of the agencies that will bring upon this earth a time of trouble such as has not been since the world began.--Letter 200, 1903. {CL 10.2}

Conflicts Between Trade Confederacies and Labor Unions

The work of the people of God is to prepare for the events of the future, which will soon come upon them with blinding force. In the world gigantic monopolies will be formed. Men will bind themselves together in unions that will wrap them in the folds of the enemy. A few men will combine to grasp all the means to be obtained in certain lines of business. Trades unions will be formed, and those who refuse to join these unions will be marked men.--Letter 26, 1903. {CL 10.3}

Quote:

For years I have been given special light that we are not to center our work in the cities. The turmoil and confusion that fill these cities, the conditions brought about by the labor unions and the strikes, would prove a great hindrance to our work. Men are seeking to bring those engaged in the different trades under bondage to certain unions. This is not God's planning, but the planning of a power that we should in no wise acknowledge. God's Word is fulfilling; the wicked are binding themselves up in bundles ready to be burned. {CL 11.2}

We are now to use all our entrusted capabilities in giving the last warning message to the world. In this work we are to preserve our individuality. We are not to unite with secret societies or with trades unions. We are to stand free in God, looking constantly to Christ for instruction. All our movements are to be made with a realization of the importance of the work to be accomplished for God.-- Testimonies, vol. 7, p. 84. (1902) {CL 11.3}

In Disregard of the Decalogue

These unions are one of the signs of the last days. Men are binding up in bundles ready to be burned. They may be church members, but while they belong to these unions, they cannot possibly keep the commandments of God; for to belong to these unions means to disregard the entire Decalogue. {CL 11.4}

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." These words sum up the whole duty of man. They mean the consecration of the whole being, body, soul, and spirit, to God's service. How can men obey these words, and at the same time pledge themselves to support that which deprives their neighbors of freedom of action? And how can men obey these words, and form combinations that rob the poorer classes of the advantages

12

which justly belong to them, preventing them from buying or selling, except under certain conditions?--Letter 26, 1903. {CL 11.5}

Unions That Are Formed or Shall Be Formed

Those who claim to be the children of God are in no case to bind up with the labor unions that are formed or that shall be formed. This the Lord forbids. Cannot those who study the prophecies see and understand what is before us?--Letter 201, 1902.

This is REALLY good stuff.