Should we show an interest in the OWS movement?

[olger]

We should show an interest in saving the souls of those that show up for OWS style events.

in Christ,

Bob

Amen!

[John317]

I'm saying that we should follow the counsels of Ellen White:

Quote:

God never set you to engage in gathering means, and in doing the work that the Salvation Army are doing. Let them work in that line, and you attend to your appointed work, and not spend God's means in channels that are not doing the work of God for this time. . . . {4MR 432.2}

Your voice is working against the success and triumph of the truth in these last days. Our God has a message for His people represented by an angel flying through heaven proclaiming the last message to a fallen world. What is the angel proclaiming? The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This represents that God's messengers are to hold this banner high, and with no feeble voice proclaim to a perishing world the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. . . .

The work that God has for the SDA church is different from the work that organizations such as the Salvation Army do. Their work may be wonderful and good, but that doesn't mean that the SDA Church ought to be doing the same things. Our work is the proclaimation of the Three Angels' Messages, lifting up the downtroddlen law of God.

There's a difference between what individual SDAs do and what the church's institutions should do.

Quote:

In connection with the proclamation of the message is to be done the work of relieving families who are in distress. Those who take their position on the Lord's side are to see in Seventh-day Adventists a warm-hearted, self-denying, self-sacrificing people, who cheerfully and gladly minister to the needy. Especially are those who suffer because they have had moral courage to accept the truth, to be helped. Those who are cast out are to receive attention. {1MR 224.3}

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The work that God has for the SDA church is different from the work that organizations such as the Salvation Army do.

Can't let this go!!! Lets follow what Christ did and his words. The last I checked the SA feeds the poor, shelters, clothes, etc. That would would be no different than the words of Christ though out the NT. That is our work also. The belief that we are special and have a special duty that other followers of Christ can't do... is well....I can only shake my head and wonder about our drift away from following Christ.

[lazarus]

You're contradicting the writings of Ellen White, Lazarus. Read what she says about the SDA church getting involved in the kind of work that the Salvation Army does. She says our church isn't called by God to do that sort of work.

Sorry that is very wrong, Clearly EGW is not condemning their work but their methods.

Quote:

The Lord has marked out our way of working. As a people we are not to imitate and fall in with Salvation Army methods. This is not the work that the Lord has given us to do. Neither is it our work to condemn them and speak harsh words against them. There are precious, self-sacrificing souls in the Salvation Army. We are to treat them kindly. There are in the Army honest souls, who are sincerely serving the Lord and who will see greater light, advancing to the acceptance of all truth. The Salvation Army workers are trying to save the neglected, downtrodden ones. Discourage them not. Let them do that class of work by their own methods and in their own way. But the Lord has plainly pointed out the work that Seventh-day Adventists are to do. Camp meetings and tent meetings are to be held. The truth for this time is to be proclaimed. A decided testimony is to be borne. And the discourses are to be so simple that children can understand them. {8T 184}

Here's another quote that supports this view. To suggest that EGW thinks that we should not do the work the SA is doing is not have a grasp of the other things that EGW says. I'm surprised you would suggest this considering all the other things EGW says about help for the needy.

Here we go:

There is need for every soul to study the Pattern, Christ Jesus. Those who follow his methods of labor will have freedom in utterance and earnestness in manner. They will be inspired by the sacred themes of truth. Christ understood the needs of all classes, and was successful in preaching the gospel to the poor. He understood all their temptations. We need to study methods whereby we may preach the gospel to the poor and downtrodden and degraded of humanity. But let no one think that God will approve of a method which will require a man to act the part of a clown, or like a man who has lost his senses. Such methods as these are wholly unnecessary and inappropriate. {ST, March 19, 1894 par. 2}

Among the Salvation Army workers such methods as these have been employed; but it is more necessary that they should study and preach the word than act in a sensational way in order to draw the attention of the people. It is the word of truth that, like a strong, golden chain, will bind men to God, where they will learn of the great Teacher. It is the word of God that is to test character. The Lord has precious, conscientious souls who have joined the Army; but they need to advance and receive other and higher truths of the word of God. {ST, March 19, 1894 par. 3}

EGW clearly criticizes their methods. The following quote clearly show that EGW is in favor of the kind of work they were doing, meeting the needs of people.

The poverty of the people to whom we are sent is not to prevent us from working for them. Christ came to this earth to walk and work among the poor and suffering. They received the greatest share of His attention. And today, in the person of His children, He visits the poor and needy, relieving woe and alleviating suffering. {7T 226.1}

By our churches there is a work to be done of which many have little idea, a work as yet almost untouched. "I was an hungred," Christ says, "and ye gave Me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me in: naked, and ye clothed Me: I was sick, and ye visited Me: I was in prison, and ye came unto Me." Matthew 25:35, 36. Some think that if they give money to this work, it is all they are required to do, but this is an error. Donations of money cannot take the place of personal ministry. It is right to give our means, and many more should do this; but according to their strength and opportunities, personal service is required of all. {WM 189.1}

The work of gathering in the needy, the oppressed, the suffering, the destitute, is the very work which every church that believes the truth for this time should long since have been doing. We are to show the tender sympathy of the Samaritan in supplying physical necessities, feeding the hungry, bringing the poor that are cast out to our homes, gathering from God every day grace and strength that will enable us to reach to the very depths of human misery and help those who cannot possibly help themselves. In doing this work we have a favorable opportunity to set forth Christ the crucified One.--Ibid., pp. 274-276. {WM 189.2}

Begin by Helping Your Neighbors.--Every church member should feel it his special duty to labor for those living in his neighborhood. Study how you can best help those who take no interest in religious things. As you visit your friends and neighbors show an interest in their spiritual as well as in their temporal welfare.

It is God's purpose that the rich and the poor shall be closely bound together by the ties of sympathy and helpfulness. He bids us interest ourselves in every case of suffering and need that shall come to our knowledge. Think it not lowering to your dignity to minister to suffering humanity. . . . {WM 192.3}

Men and women of God, persons of discernment and wisdom, should be appointed to look after the poor and needy, the household of faith first. These should report to the church and counsel as to what should be done. {WM 194.1}

Attention should be given to the establishment of various industries so that poor families can find employment. Carpenters, blacksmiths, and indeed everyone who understands some line of useful labor should feel a responsibility to teach and help the ignorant and the unemployed. {WM 198.2}

In ministry to the poor there is a wide field of service for women as well as for men. The efficient cook, the housekeeper, the seamstress, the nurse--the help of all is needed. . . . {WM 198.3}

Missionary families are needed to settle in the waste places. Let farmers, financiers, builders, and those who are skilled in various arts and crafts go to neglected fields to improve the land, to establish industries, to prepare humble homes for themselves, and to help their neighbors.--Ministry of Healing, p. 194.

Years ago I was shown that God's people would be tested upon this point of making homes for the homeless; that there would be many without homes in consequence of their believing the truth. Opposition and persecution would deprive believers of their homes, and it was the duty of those who had homes to open a wide door to those who had not. I have been shown more recently that God would specially test His professed people in reference to this matter. {WM 211.1}

God will hold the church at _____ responsible, as a body, for the wrong course of its members. If a selfish and unsympathizing spirit is allowed to exist in any of its members toward the unfortunate, the widow, the orphan, the blind, the lame, or those who are sick in body or mind, He will hide His face from His people until they do their duty and remove the wrong from among them.

Christ regards all acts of mercy, benevolence, and thoughtful consideration for the unfortunate, the blind, the lame, the sick, the widow, and the orphan as done to Himself: and these works are preserved in the heavenly records and will be rewarded. On the other hand, a record will be written in the book against those who manifest the indifference of the priest and the Levite to the unfortunate, and those who take any advantage of the misfortunes of others.--Ibid., pp. 512, 513. {WM 213.1}

All around us we see want and suffering. Families are in need of food; little ones are crying for bread. The houses of the poor lack proper furniture and bedding. Many live in mere hovels, which are almost destitute of conveniences. The cry of the poor reaches to heaven. God sees; God hears.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 385. {WM 188.1}

While God in His providence has laden the earth with His bounties and filled its storehouses with the comforts of life, want and misery are on every hand. A liberal Providence has placed in the hands of His human agents an abundance to supply the necessities of all, but the stewards of God are unfaithful. In the professed Christian world there is enough expended in extravagant display to supply the wants of all the hungry and to clothe the naked. Many who have taken upon themselves the name of Christ are spending His money for selfish pleasure, for the gratification of appetite, for strong drink and rich dainties, for extravagant houses and furniture and dress, while to suffering human beings they give scarcely a look of pity or a word of sympathy. {WM 188.2}

Fatherless and motherless children are thrown into the arms of the church, and Christ says to his followers, Take these destitute children, bring them up for me, and ye shall receive your wages. I have seen much selfishness exhibited in these things. Unless there is some special evidence that they themselves are to be benefited by adopting into their family those who need homes, some turn away and answer, No. They do not seem to know or care whether such are saved or lost. That, they think, is not their business. With Cain they say, "Am I my brother's keeper?" They are not willing to be put to inconvenience or to make any sacrifice for the orphans, and they indifferently thrust such ones into the arms of the world, who are sometimes more willing to receive them than are these professed Christians. In the day of God, inquiry will be made for those whom Heaven gave them the opportunity of saving. But they wished to be excused, and would not engage in the good work unless they could make it a matter of profit to themselves. It has been shown me that those who refuse these opportunities for doing good, will hear from the lips of the Master, "Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." {HM, November 1, 1889 par. 19}

The poor, the homeless, and the widows are among us; and dare those whom God has made his stewards, to whom he has intrusted means, withhold from the needy disciples of Christ? If so, they withhold from Jesus. Do you expect the Lord to rain down grain from heaven to supply the needy? Has he not rather placed it in your hands, to help and bless them through you? Has he not made you his instrument in this good work to prove you, and to give you the privilege of laying up a treasure in heaven? {HM, November 1, 1889 par. 18}

To suggest that churches or individuals should not be engaged in meeting the needs of the poor and need in the community is both unbiblical and is not supported by the writings of Ellen White. EGW was very balanced in her comments regarding the poor. The message of truth was the priority but clearly she saw that meeting needs was the will and work of the Lord.

Christ’s method alone will give true success in reaching the people. The Saviour mingled with men as one who desired their good. He showed His sympathy for them, ministered to their needs, and won their confidence. Then He bade them, “Follow Me.” Ellen White, Ministry of Healing p 143.

[lazarus]

Sorry folks for the length of the post but I think it was warranted.

[lazarus]

There's a difference between what individual SDAs do and what the church's institutions should do.

This notion is not supported by scripture or EGW. Sadly, I think your own political persuasion is coloring your theology here.

[lazarus]

Bill Knot on labor unions and EGW:

A thorough survey of all her discussions of labor unions, however, reveals that Ellen White clearly understood the social inequities and injustices which they at least initially sought to redress. Side by side with her critiques of the violence, greed, and oppression wrought by labor unions are equally strident denunciations of the "captains of industry" whose unjust and avaricious behavior frequently pushed workers to the very edge of survival. Like the prophets of the Old Testament, she denounced the ungodly excesses of both groups, a fact not usually appreciated by the many lay Adventists who have unfairly been made aware of only her criticisms of the labor movement. Her Christian compassion for the oppressed classes of her society led her to reject the morally ambiguous goals of the labor unions, many of which employed unworthy means to otherwise worthy ends.

Ellen White was not, in the final analysis, a partisan for either labor or management. She instead called all parties to a social compact based on Christ's ethic of justice and peace.

[Bravus]

[Overaged]

Ellen White was not, in the final analysis, a partisan for either labor or management. She instead called all parties to a social compact based on Christ's ethic of justice and peace.

To be honest; I am shocked and appalled that some "Adventists" have portrayed Ellen G White as someone who teaches that Adventists should not help people who need help. I am not going to go into a bunch of quotes and stuff on this right now; except to say that if someone I run into needs my help; and I am able to give them that help; I am going to risk "erring on the side of mercy;" and help that person or group. To disparage the ministry of the Salvation Army by dogmatically maligning Ellen White as being "against" this, shows a very poor understanding of the spirit of prophecy, of Christianity, and of the ministry of EGW and her writings.

Pro_3:27 Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it.

How dare we use Ellen White as an excuse to disobey this scripture, or as an excuse to disparage those in ministry for Christ who are "not one of us?"

[BobRyan]

Bill Knot on labor unions and EGW:

A thorough survey of all her discussions of labor unions, however, reveals that Ellen White clearly understood the social inequities and injustices which they at least initially sought to redress.

I agree. It is just like the basic truth that people "need to learn new things" and yet "eating from the tree of knowledge of evil" was not the way to do it.

in Christ,

Bob

[lazarus]

Overaged,

You caught my facial expression perfectly with the picture of that cat.

[doug yowell]

Ellen White was not, in the final analysis, a partisan for either labor or management. She instead called all parties to a social compact based on Christ's ethic of justice and peace.

I liked this piece,laz. I think it shows that EGW would not have been supportive of the OWS movement because of their methodology and motive while at the same time not keeping quiet about the responsibility of management to voluntarily look out for the needs of the less fortunate.

As a lifetime member of the working class I have both sympathy and criticism of each entity in this struggle for the "good life".

[Overaged]

Overaged,

You caught my facial expression perfectly with the picture of that cat.

LOL, thx. In this case a picture is worth 2000 words.

[Overaged]

Laz; sorry if this is a stupid question. Who is Bill Knot?

[phkrause]

[phkrause]

Overaged,

You caught my facial expression perfectly with the picture of that cat.

I agree

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Ellen White was not, in the final analysis, a partisan for either labor or management. She instead called all parties to a social compact based on Christ's ethic of justice and peace.

I liked this piece,laz. I think it shows that EGW would not have been supportive of the OWS movement because of their methodology and motive while at the same time not keeping quiet about the responsibility of management to voluntarily look out for the needs of the less fortunate.

As a lifetime member of the working class I have both sympathy and criticism of each entity in this struggle for the "good life".

This was what I was trying to say in an earlier post, but didn't quite say as well as you did here doug.

[phkrause]

Laz; sorry if this is a stupid question. Who is Bill Knot?

Editor of the Review Magazine OA.

[Overaged]

LOL, Thanks! Shows how much I know...

[phkrause]

Do you get the Adventist Review? I guess obviously not. Besides even without the Review, I already knew who he was. We both lived in South Lancaster, MA, for some years until be moved to Union Springs Academy, I believe. than I think he went to Andrews. His parents went to the College Church that's how we got to know each other.

[Overaged]

We get the Review & Signs here but I confess that I never pay attention to names/authors. I just read articles with titles that interest me...

[phkrause]

Is that from your local conference or do you get that from the review? I do the same, and also when I see a name I know, I read those articles too.

[lazarus]

I liked this piece,laz. I think it shows that EGW would not have been supportive of the OWS movement because of their methodology and motive while at the same time not keeping quiet about the responsibility of management to voluntarily look out for the needs of the less fortunate.

My challenge with certain perspectives I seen posted in this thread is the simple parroting of GOP talking points and using EGW as a cover. She was always very balanced in her views.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I liked this piece,laz. I think it shows that EGW would not have been supportive of the OWS movement because of their methodology and motive while at the same time not keeping quiet about the responsibility of management to voluntarily look out for the needs of the less fortunate.

My challenge with certain perspectives I seen posted in this thread is the simple parroting of GOP talking points and using EGW as a cover. She was always very balanced in her views.

Excellent point

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Laz; sorry if this is a stupid question. Who is Bill Knot?

Editor of the Review Magazine OA.

I think he spells it with 2 t's,no? And he owns a lucrative amusement park in Buena Park, California.