Should we show an interest in the OWS movement?

[Overaged]

You're now talking to yourself?

LOL; us church goers do some strange things sometimes don't we cardw? But the fact that you have stuck with us for so long through it all tells me that something good must be rubbing off on you.

[John317]

@John

"Many of the same people that were in Denver are in New York agitating people against the upper classes. A lot of those people are professional protestors. They want the police and the government to look bad."

And you know this for sure because ___________________? I live here and haven't seen or heard anything like this.

Alex

Have you ever actually been a member of the groups that organizise these protests and demonstrations?

Have you ever sat in on their meetings while they are planning them?

They don't make any bones about hiding what their intentions are. They're not out for a walk in the park. They are out to do one thing: cause problems for the system and make them give in to their demands. They're not asking, they're demanding. You give them what they want-- or else. That's the situation.

I got out of doing those things when I decided to be baptized into Christ and join the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I could no longer promote and support such actions.

Did you hear about the riots in Oakland that occurred today?

Check it out:

Quote:

OAKLAND, Calif. (The Blaze/AP) — A day of demonstrations in Oakland that began as a significant step toward expanding the political and economic influence of the Occupy Wall Street movement, ended with police in riot gear arresting dozens of protesters who had marched through downtown to break into a vacant building, shattering windows, spraying graffiti and setting fires along the way.

“We go from having a peaceful movement to now just chaos,” said protester Monique Agnew, 40.

The confrontation began after protesters started a large bonfire in the middle of a downtown street. Dozens of police in riot gear moved in on hundreds of protesters as the flames leapt more than 15 feet in the air from several large metal and plastic trash bins that had been pushed together.

Police warned protesters to clear out before firing several rounds of tear gas and “flash bang” grenades to clear the area.

In the aftermath of the police actions, protesters with cloth wrapped around their faces to protect them from the stench of the gas marched through the area chanting, “Whose streets? Our streets.”

Some marchers wore gas masks.

Glass covered streets and sidewalks from windows of area businesses that were shattered.

For the rest of the article, together with photos and videos, see:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/riot-gea...haos-overnight/

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The experience of Jesus Christ at the pool of Bethesda is a great example.

Here Jesus Christ was surrounded by all kinds of poor and needy but He didn't heal them all.

Why didn't Christ just heal them all? Why did Christ only heal "ONE LONE CRIPPLE"?

Christ could have healed them all but He didn't heal them all.

I will comment on my own post.

To be fair we also know that Jesus Christ did heal large numbers of people in many villages. So there is both sides to this issue.

The question was asked "why didn't Jesus heal them all"?

The answer to miz3's question is that Jesus Christ did what His Father told Him to do. So the Father in His infinite wisdom told Christ when, how, etc. to heal and not to heal. It was the Father's Wisdom not merely the wisdom of the human entity.

So it may be with us humans of Christ's Family. We are dependent on the Father to tell us when and when not to do.

How many of us are following Christ's example of being so close to the Father that we know all the right moves?

Hmmm!

I know I don't measure up. I would like too though.

[cardw]

I did that for a reason and a promise I made to someone. That is why I had to comment to myself.

I know you will not understand but I hope the person I promised will understand. If I look stupid in order to keep that promise I guess I will have to look stupid.

I'm not saying that you are stupid. I may call you ignorant, but that doesn't mean you are stupid. The core word in ignorant is "ignore."

Let me give you a tip. Once I realize that I'm incorrect or I didn't communicate something very well I admit it right away. It doesn't weaken my position at all. And if I'm wrong I want to stop defending an incorrect position as soon as possible.

I respond very well to evidence. I don't respond well to triumphal announcements or misrepresentations of my own position or Bible quotes as proof.

If you have feelings or convictions about things that you aren't imposing on everyone else, I generally have no comment, but respect your right to have convictions and feelings.

I don't generally take things personally and I don't believe in enabling ignorance by being vague. If one takes the idea that the truth sets people free seriously then it does not pay to be "nice" when that creates a mixed message.

I am a detail person because complex issues require a lot of detail to untangle. Too many positions on complex issues, such as poverty, are poorly thought out. (No pun intended) LOL

I respect people enough to be as honest as I can and that includes avoiding being fake nice. Life is too short.

So I have to admit that you baffle me. I have a very hard time understanding where you are coming from. That doesn't mean that I am saying there is something wrong with you. It means that, so far, I am unable to comprehend where you are coming from.

[cardw]

LOL; us church goers do some strange things sometimes don't we cardw? But the fact that you have stuck with us for so long through it all tells me that something good must be rubbing off on you.

Hey, I was a church goer for the majority of my life.

And yes, good does rub off on me from dialoging here. I am very grateful for the conversation here. I wouldn't participate if I didn't find value.

[cardw]

For years, before I joined the Adventist church, I've been active in my community helping the poor. The need is over whelming!!! You absolutely cannot help them all, you HAVE to pick and choose and sometimes are forced to make terrible choices. When I joined the church, I started looking around and saw there was a lot of need right at my door step. My efforts now are primarily with the churches, plural, in my area, while I STILL reach out to the community. I'm working with a few folks right now who have been so traumatized by society they are fearful of taking help from anybody, and that especially includes church groups.

This is a very insightful position from someone who has obviously been in the trenches.

There are some very loving individuals who are out there doing great work. The needs of some people are so great that it takes a whole community to provide what is needed. No one person can take on some of these very complex cases.

What people don't realize is that many of these people look like adults, but they are still children. And some of them will never be able to be completely self sufficient. They need a lot of structure. Giving them money or telling them to go find a job is not only cruel, it reveals a profound lack of understanding.

Many of them can be useful members of society, but not on their own. So many of them have simply been dumped on the street by policies that have been short sighted.

Club12 is right. The need is overwhelming. In this country, it is not from a lack of resources. It is from a lack of compassion and understanding. Love is not enabling, nor is it judging. To skillfully love these people takes a whole community, intelligent intervention, accountability, patience, and time.

[miz3]

I just simply don't believe the Fed Gov can handle this problem with even the remotest competence at all.

I believe that to make the Feds solve this problem is the worst possible solution ever.

I believe the more local the solutions come from to this problem the better.

I believe the problem will always continue to be with us. We will never ever wipe out poverty, hunger, or disease. These horrors will always be with us as a chronic problem.

I believe that American Republican form of Gov with a free market (that is regulated to the smallest possible degree without letting the free market run wild and evil unchecked) is the best way to minimize the horrors of poverty, hunger, and/or disease.

I believe the more "central planning" (strong central gov) the greater the problems of poverty, hunger, and/or disease will grow and run rampant. In addition such a strong "central planning" forms of gov always reduces individual freedom and also reduces individual responsibility both of which are absolutely necessary for the success, the peace, and the tranquility of the group (nation).

[Bravus]

The problem is... the OWS people are not *asking* the Federal government to solve it! Assuming they are is just the old conservative obsessions playing out again.

[ClubV12]

Which gets right to the heart of the matter Bravus,,,

What ARE they asking for? Besides the Feds to pay their student loans for them. :)

[Gerr]

Well, if GM, Goldman-Sachs, B of A, AIG, Chrysler, (how many did I leave out?) could get gov't aid, any reason why students can't do the same?

[phkrause]

I also agree that the church should be doing what they can, but sorry to say that I believe its very overwhelming for them. And I believe that one reason is less giving, and I'm not just talking about the last few years, its been on going for many years. Obviously getting worse. His own party hasn't help much either. As Shane has mentioned on a number of occasions on other threads, he had the House and the Senate in his first 2 years of office and from what I can see, they have failed him, over and over.

[ClubV12]

Gerry,,, sure, why not, as long as were bailing out every one anyway, whats a few student loans.

Do like Oprah, everyone gets a free car, and lets throw a chicken in every pot, then tax that rich 1% to pay for it all.

Ye Haw, party time!

You do make a valid point though, once you open that "bail out" door, where do you stop?

[Overaged]

Ha ha! If I was. King. I would tax all those chickens you were just talking about!

[doug yowell]

"It was not the purpose of God that poverty should ever leave the world. The ranks of society were never to be equalized; for the diversity of conditions which characterizes our race is one of the means by which God has designed to prove and develop character. Many have urged with great enthusiasm that all men should have an equal share in the temporal blessings of God; but this was not the purpose of the Creator. Christ has said that we shall have the poor always with us. The poor, as well as the rich, are the purchase of His blood; and among His professed followers, in most cases, the former serve Him with singleness of purpose, while the latter are constantly fastening their affections on their earthly treasures, and Christ is forgotten. The cares of this life and the greed for riches eclipse the glory of the eternal world. It would be the greatest misfortune that has ever befallen mankind if all were to be placed upon an equality in worldly possessions" (CH 230).

Awesome observation.Whoever wrote this is obviously a real insensitive troublemaker. Wonder why nobody has bothered to openly argue with it?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I think Jesus was pretty radical about the redistribution of wealth for his followers.

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

That doesn't seem to be a popular sermon in most Christian Churches. LOL

Not to mention that the early church was communistic, and gave all of their money to the central agency for fair distribution.

...and not to mention that the central agency had no armed collection agents and did not operate out of (with all due respect to those find this unbelievable)Rome.

[doug yowell]

Quote:

We HAVE to figure out who the WORTHY poor are or were all going down.

It is such statements as that, which in turn fuel the disdain cardw and others have for organized religion. According to the Bible NONE are worthy of salvation, but we get it for free, argue all you want, so show me where you or anyone else has the right to say who is WORTHY!

Do the words "if a man does not work he should not eat" have any impact on your statement?

[doug yowell]

taking videos of the marginal makes everyone look like that doesn't it? Makes us feel much better. whewww

ANyone willing to apply this same standard to the Operation Rescue movement of the 90"s? Except there were no videos they just made up stuff.Do videos of the "marginal damage" and the "marginal arrests" count?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: olger

"It was not the purpose of God that poverty should ever leave the world. The ranks of society were never to be equalized; ....

Neither was it His plan that there should be rampant abject poverty. In the Hebrew economy, God provided means to prevent this - Year of Jubilee, by the 7th year a slave was to be set free, no usury, leave some fruit on the trees and vines, and grains in the fields for the poor to glean, and some tithes for them

This of course would require everyone to keep the spirit of the Sabbath as well as the letter of the Sabbath. If we could get a few Sabbath laws passed we could lick this problem in no less than 7, no more than 50 years!! But then if the US government can't teach that there was a Creator I guess the Sabbath thing won't go over so big.Do you think OWS has a better solution?

[doug yowell]

this is called trickle down sin. Unions have been doing the same thing things for years including the teachers unions. Ever heard of tenure? Not everyone who gets rewards are doing a good job. Democratic politicians have been in control of the big cities for decades and have continued to get reelected to those well paid posts for doing a good job?? Many conservative right advocates are themselves not particularly well off financially. Almost all want to help the legitimate poor but demand more accountability. Knowing that the poor can be just as dishonest as the rich, welfare fraud is no less important than the neglect of the rich.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Do the words "if a man does not work he should not eat" have any impact on your statement?

Any reason it should! An out of context, partial quote!

If I were to take that question seriously, and I don't, I would ask then why is there unemployed peoples? Oh, thats right, In your world there is jobs for everyone!!!

[miz3]

Ha ha! If I was. King. I would tax all those chickens you were just talking about!

The "chicken union" wouldn't like that.

Unfortunately Col. Sanders has decimated and enslaved the "chicken union". Maybe you could tax that old Col. Sanders?

By the way do you think Col. Sanders dyes his hair or is white his hair's natural color?

[cardw]

I just simply don't believe the Fed Gov can handle this problem with even the remotest competence at all.

I believe that to make the Feds solve this problem is the worst possible solution ever.

I believe the more local the solutions come from to this problem the better.

[cardw]

Do the words "if a man does not work he should not eat" have any impact on your statement?

Do you call what banks, trading houses, and insurance companies do work?

They don't produce a product or provide food. They leach money off of every transaction. They live off usury.

Maybe they shouldn't eat.

Maybe the retired at 30 CEOs and entrepreneurs who aren't working, but live off their wealth, shouldn't eat.

We don't reward working people. We reward smart lazy people who know how to game the system.

[miz3]

I just simply don't believe the Fed Gov can handle this problem with even the remotest competence at all.

I believe that to make the Feds solve this problem is the worst possible solution ever.

I believe the more local the solutions come from to this problem the better.

[miz3]

I believe the problem will always continue to be with us. We will never ever wipe out poverty, hunger, or disease. These horrors will always be with us as a chronic problem.