Should we show an interest in the OWS movement?

[abelisle]

"The news media does not seem to report it in an unbiased way with most videos and articles I have read so far calling the police "Nazi Cops;" and accusing them of "brutality." But I don't agree with those accusations in this case; none of the footage I saw showed anything close to brutality. The cops have to do something when they are stuck with a mob who only wants to hold the general public hostage and harass them and wreck stuff like a bunch of hoodlums. If that's OWS, which is all I have seen so far; then it does not even come anywhere close to what we are being spoonfed with."

This is nonsense.

I live here. I've been there. And I've had many personal experiences with the NYPD that bear out their aggressiveness, corruption and total disdain for minorities. Just check out what's happening with the cops in the Bronx in the large corruption scandal here in the Bronx:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-04-...bronx-precincts

Alex

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I think Jesus was pretty radical about the redistribution of wealth for his followers.

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

That doesn't seem to be a popular sermon in most Christian Churches. LOL

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Not to mention that the early church was communistic, and gave all of their money to the central agency for fair distribution.

That was small scale, very small scale.

That is quite different from the Feds doing it on such a mass scale as dealing with hundreds of millions of people.

Second the Early Church was a LOCAL entity close to the people not the Feds who are very far from the people they deal with.

It's a big big big vast difference between the two. The two situations are not even anywhere near equal.

Third God required that of the Rich Young Ruler and did not require such a thing from all people.

Clearly the church has dropped the ball, otherwise this would not be an issue.

There wouldn't be any welfare abuse on the scale we have today if the church had made an active inroad into these communities.

Clean up your own house first then you might have something to complain about.

I agree that money won't solve these problems, but the things conservatives want to cut are infrastructure. They want to cut social security, fire departments, police departments, roads, public transportation, and health care. These hurt all of us.

I pay a boat load of taxes and I want the wealthy to pay their fair share for infrastructure that they have benefitted from. The oil industry doesn't need subsidies. Banks don't need bail outs. And wall street doesn't need tax breaks. There is no trickle down. If you can't see that then you are a sucker.

Do you realize that the bank bailout, which is welfare, cost every man, woman, and child over $2300? And what did they spend that bail out on? They bought US debt in the form of treasury bonds. They got free money and loaned it back to the government instead of fixing the housing problem.

Don't blame the poor when the most wealthy, who know what they are doing, are willfully fleecing the American people and feeding you distractions in these idiotic sound bytes that you parrot for them.

[Overaged]

Just to clarify Sir; I was referring specifically to all of the video clips I viewed online at web sites that support OWS; and I am saying that in these videos, and commentaries; there was no evidence of police brutality. It was clearly embellished "reporting" at it's best.

If there are examples of NYPD brutality that you can point us to; it does not reflect that brutality is/has taken place in their responses to the OWS movement.

[phkrause]

Clearly the church has dropped the ball, otherwise this would not be an issue.

Unfortuanely I have to agree with you here. Having said that I do know that are a number of churches that do there share in the community. On a smaller scale EGW has mentioned that if members gave of there prosperity we would not need to do "Ingathering." So we can see as the church has gotten richer, they have given less to those around them or it could just be that attitude we see of many around us.

[phkrause]

I agree that money won't solve these problems, but the things conservatives want to cut are infrastructure. They want to cut social security, fire departments, police departments, roads, public transportation, and health care. These hurt all of us.

I pay a boat load of taxes and I want the wealthy to pay their fair share for infrastructure that they have benefitted from. The oil industry doesn't need subsidies. Banks don't need bail outs. And wall street doesn't need tax breaks. There is no trickle down. If you can't see that then you are a sucker.

Do you realize that the bank bailout, which is welfare, cost every man, woman, and child over $2300? And what did they spend that bail out on? They bought US debt in the form of treasury bonds. They got free money and loaned it back to the government instead of fixing the housing problem.

Don't blame the poor when the most wealthy, who know what they are doing, are willfully fleecing the American people and feeding you distractions in these idiotic sound bytes that you parrot for them.

And lets not forget all the bonuses paid out to these same bank people.

[ClubV12]

Beyond the fact that the poor will always be with us, the "poor", in quotes, I do believe our society has helped increase the number by various well intentioned ways that missed the target.

Like the UN's plan to eliminate the poor on a world wide scale, won't happen, CAN'T happen becuase the bible says they will ALWAYS be with us. The Government, that would be society actually, has done much to increase the numbers of poor by making it to easy to qualify for various assisstance programs. Churches and civic groups are over whelmed with the need, not just locally, but globally. We've set up a system where greed, graft and fraud can grow like a fungus.

Right now is an especially bad time with unemployment and such as it is, but this didn't happen overnight. One BIG reason were in this mess was the attempt to let my poor people have a slice of American pie. "We", Gov, society, Wall St, banks, pick a group you don't like, lowered the loan standards SO low anybody could buy a house! You could get a loan for an amount that exceeded the value of the house before you even moved in! The system was "rigged" all right, everyone was looking the other way while the "numbers" were fudged on the loan application. GREED was running rampant, all in the name of letting the poor buy a house, at any price.

I don't think the Gov has figured it out yet, there are STILL trying to figure out how to share the wealth. A fine goal, a worthy consideration, but the poor will always be with us. We HAVE to figure out who the WORTHY poor are or were all going down.

[doug yowell]

NOT ALL rich people have tainted riches. But look at this list and see why a lot of people have become suspicious about rich people.

List of businessmen who were called robber barons

John Jacob Astor (real estate, fur)—New York City

Andrew Carnegie (steel)—Pittsburgh and New York

Jay Cooke (finance)—Philadelphia

Charles Crocker (railroads)—California

Daniel Drew (finance)—New York

James Buchanan Duke (tobacco)— Durham, North Carolina

James Fisk (finance)—New York

Henry Morrison Flagler (railroads, oil, the Standard Oil company)—New York and Florida[6]

Henry Clay Frick (steel)—Pittsburgh and New York City

John Warne Gates (barbed wire)

Jay Gould (railroads)--New York[7]

Edward Henry Harriman (railroads)—New York[8]

Mark Hopkins (railroads)—California

Andrew W. Mellon (finance, oil)—Pittsburgh

J. P. Morgan (finance, industrial consolidation)—New York City

Henry B. Plant (railroads)—Florida

John D. Rockefeller (oil), Cleveland, New York

Charles M. Schwab (steel) Pittsburgh and New York

John D. Spreckels (sugar)— California

Leland Stanford (railroads)—California

Joseph Seligman (banking)

Cornelius Vanderbilt (water transport, railroads)--New York[9]

Charles Tyson Yerkes (street railroads)--Chicago.[10]

Add to that the Ken Lays, Goldman-Sachs, Joseph Kennedy, and how many more? The robber barons are still living and well.

How bout Stan Jensen,internet mogul?

[ClubV12]

Not just Stan,,,

Last time we had a list, Parade Orange was on it, has had gone into hiding for this one?

:)

[CoAspen]

Quote:

We HAVE to figure out who the WORTHY poor are or were all going down.

It is such statements as that, which in turn fuel the disdain cardw and others have for organized religion. According to the Bible NONE are worthy of salvation, but we get it for free, argue all you want, so show me where you or anyone else has the right to say who is WORTHY!

[ClubV12]

If you don't want any standards for welfare, then why not invite a herion addict in out of the cold to your home? You know, do your part!

Hey, I know, we can offer a $500,000 loan to a family on welfare so they can buy a new home, just like any other American. If they default on the payments, no problem, we can send the bill to the church of your choice or the Federal Government. Maybe we can ask some fat cat Wall St guy to pick up the tab?

A little common sense please....

A homeless guy I help on occasion can't get food stamps, goes hungry sometimes. One day I asked him why he doesn't qualify? He got caught selling his food stamp card for beer and was busted for fraud. I'm OK with that, better than putting him in jail and billing the tax payers for his three square meals. I don't GIVE him anything, I let him do some WORK around the house.

A hand up, not a hand out.

[Kountzer]

Rodney Walker

@Rodney_Walker Rodney Walker

Vatican Calls for 'Central World Bank' to Be Set Up. http://t.co/thqINLd6

[miz3]

"The news media does not seem to report it in an unbiased way with most videos and articles I have read so far calling the police "Nazi Cops;" and accusing them of "brutality." But I don't agree with those accusations in this case; none of the footage I saw showed anything close to brutality. The cops have to do something when they are stuck with a mob who only wants to hold the general public hostage and harass them and wreck stuff like a bunch of hoodlums. If that's OWS, which is all I have seen so far; then it does not even come anywhere close to what we are being spoonfed with."

This is nonsense.

I live here. I've been there. And I've had many personal experiences with the NYPD that bear out their aggressiveness, corruption and total disdain for minorities. Just check out what's happening with the cops in the Bronx in the large corruption scandal here in the Bronx:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-04-...bronx-precincts

Alex

No one should ever say that "Big city Police Forces" are pure as the driven snow. We should know that again when "big orgs" are made at the governmental level that it follows as sure as the sun rises that corruption, brutality, etc. will exist.

Thus, the NYPD along with other "big city police forces" will not be a model of goodness. This then is another reason to strip "Big Government" of its size, power, and money.

Thank you abelisle for helping us to see more clearly the need for reform in American civics by making Government smaller, with less power, and more accountable to the people they actually serve.

Also the fact that the NYPD is not Mother Teresa does not make the OWS people the Angels in Heaven.

[Aliensanctuary]

In order for wealth to exist, there must be disparity. There must be the "have nots" and the "have littles" in order for the "haves" to have and control wealth.

Because the wealthy have a strong tendency to be greedy and selfish, they will have great difficulty entering the Kingdom of Heaven, according to Jesus. Although they could help the common people by charging less for their products, services, or loans, they do not. Instead, they take every advantage they can find to increase their wealth, often at the expense of those who can least afford it.

In the Kingdom, I suspect there will be no need for bankers, CEO's, politicians, corporations, etc., all so willing to enrich themselves at other's expense.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I think Jesus was pretty radical about the redistribution of wealth for his followers.

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

That doesn't seem to be a popular sermon in most Christian Churches. LOL

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Not to mention that the early church was communistic, and gave all of their money to the central agency for fair distribution.

That was small scale, very small scale.

That is quite different from the Feds doing it on such a mass scale as dealing with hundreds of millions of people.

Second the Early Church was a LOCAL entity close to the people not the Feds who are very far from the people they deal with.

It's a big big big vast difference between the two. The two situations are not even anywhere near equal.

Third God required that of the Rich Young Ruler and did not require such a thing from all people.

[cardw]

However, your other part of your tirade is dead wrong on its face.

1. Conservatives want to end those items at the Federal Level and not end them at other levels of government. They want to lower your taxes to the Federal Government so that the States and other lower governments can get that money directly from you (that only makes sense and less waste and corruption). They want to limit the Power of the Federal Government so that State and local governments have more power and more accountability to you the citizen.

The Federal Government should never ever be involved in any of these activities such as, social security, fire departments, police departments, roads, public transportation, and health care. These are the responsibility of State and local governments. Let these lower governments tax you so as to fulfill these responsibilities to your satisfaction.

When the Feds get their hands on such things there is more waste, corruption, etc. than you can count to infinity.

2. I agree with you that the Federal Government should not be paying "oil subsidies" (this is nothing more than gov't corruption), "bank bailouts" (this is nothing more than paying Fed gov't cronies), and Wall Street etc. do not need "tax subsidies".

By citing this you more than make my point again that the Fed Gov't needs to be made smaller, with less power, and less money. The Fed gov is in far toooo much stuff for which it has no business ever being in.

Don't blame Conservatives they actually want to help you by doing these things. At a more local level it is easier to make everyone pay their fair share. The lower down in government we get the more the local people can hold them accountable because they are the people.

The Feds are so far away they don't care what you think or do. They will ignore you as an individual all day long. However, at the local level the government people are your neighbors and they have to listen or they get booted.

That is why when the American People yelled and screamed at "Obama Care" and that they did not want it passed Washington thumbed their nose at the public and did what they wanted.

You can change all this by voting for Conservative representatives that will indeed "CUT THE FEDS" so that your local governments and you can be free of the Fed tyranny.

Don't be mad at Conservatives be mad at the Feds who bleed you white and then thumb their nose at you.

So who are these conservatives that don't want to cut medicare and social security?

Who are these conservatives that want to level the tax code?

Who are these conservatives that actually have a plan that doesn't simply cut everything?

I used to be a conservative before the religious right got a hold of it. Today the democrats look more like old style conservatives than the Republicans.

Look at the clowns running for president. Obama is going to win simply because he's the lesser of two evils.

[Overaged]

Does ANYONE have any idea at all what this thread is about now?

[Gerr]

"It was not the purpose of God that poverty should ever leave the world. The ranks of society were never to be equalized; ....

Neither was it His plan that there should be rampant abject poverty. In the Hebrew economy, God provided means to prevent this - Year of Jubilee, by the 7th year a slave was to be set free, no usury, leave some fruit on the trees and vines, and grains in the fields for the poor to glean, and some tithes for them

[Gerr]

How bout Stan Jensen,internet mogul?

Where did I read that this forum was worth $8?

[Gerr]

It is such statements as that, which in turn fuel the disdain cardw and others have for organized religion. According to the Bible NONE are worthy of salvation, but we get it for free, argue all you want, so show me where you or anyone else has the right to say who is WORTHY!

How long will you keep feeding and housing an able-bodied person who would not work?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

However, your other part of your tirade is dead wrong on its face.

1. Conservatives want to end those items at the Federal Level and not end them at other levels of government. They want to lower your taxes to the Federal Government so that the States and other lower governments can get that money directly from you (that only makes sense and less waste and corruption). They want to limit the Power of the Federal Government so that State and local governments have more power and more accountability to you the citizen.

The Federal Government should never ever be involved in any of these activities such as, social security, fire departments, police departments, roads, public transportation, and health care. These are the responsibility of State and local governments. Let these lower governments tax you so as to fulfill these responsibilities to your satisfaction.

When the Feds get their hands on such things there is more waste, corruption, etc. than you can count to infinity.

2. I agree with you that the Federal Government should not be paying "oil subsidies" (this is nothing more than gov't corruption), "bank bailouts" (this is nothing more than paying Fed gov't cronies), and Wall Street etc. do not need "tax subsidies".

By citing this you more than make my point again that the Fed Gov't needs to be made smaller, with less power, and less money. The Fed gov is in far toooo much stuff for which it has no business ever being in.

Don't blame Conservatives they actually want to help you by doing these things. At a more local level it is easier to make everyone pay their fair share. The lower down in government we get the more the local people can hold them accountable because they are the people.

The Feds are so far away they don't care what you think or do. They will ignore you as an individual all day long. However, at the local level the government people are your neighbors and they have to listen or they get booted.

That is why when the American People yelled and screamed at "Obama Care" and that they did not want it passed Washington thumbed their nose at the public and did what they wanted.

You can change all this by voting for Conservative representatives that will indeed "CUT THE FEDS" so that your local governments and you can be free of the Fed tyranny.

Don't be mad at Conservatives be mad at the Feds who bleed you white and then thumb their nose at you.

So who are these conservatives that don't want to cut medicare and social security?

Who are these conservatives that want to level the tax code?

Who are these conservatives that actually have a plan that doesn't simply cut everything?

I used to be a conservative before the religious right got a hold of it. Today the democrats look more like old style conservatives than the Republicans.

Look at the clowns running for president. Obama is going to win simply because he's the lesser of two evils.

You need to read carefully. You need to listen to real Conservatives carefully. It appears that you are so set against them because of the propaganda that you have been fed that you can't hear or see the truth.

What is it about smaller Fed gov that you don't understand?

[bonnie]

http://youtu.be/vlMVazw_vUE

[Stan]

taking videos of the marginal makes everyone look like that doesn't it? Makes us feel much better. whewww

[Overaged]

taking videos of the marginal makes everyone look like that doesn't it? Makes us feel much better. whewww

[bonnie]

taking videos of the marginal makes everyone look like that doesn't it? Makes us feel much better. whewww

Marginal? I feel for those who have businesses being destroyed,losing up to 60% of their livelihood.The protesters taking advantage of bathroom facilities and internet are hardly concerned about the working class.Business owners have been pushed and shoved out of the way when they have tried to stop them. Craigs list has or did have an ad offering 22.00 an hour plus transportation and food for any that wanted to come and protest. Paid protesting is always so sincere.Wonder who is paying them to put on this performance?

Those so concerned about the downtrodden,eating gourmet food,refuses to offer the same to homeless. They can have rice.

If this is so authentic take the existing pigsty they have created to the grounds of the White House and the doorstep of congress.Neither Wall Street or the banks write the rules they conduct business under.Take it to those that do

[ClubV12]

A new report mentioned the former ACORN workers were paying homeless $10 an hour to hang out. Paying others to solicite funds. Sounds like Capitalism is alive and well, no problem! :)