Should we show an interest in the OWS movement?

[Gerr]

If you are saying that to be involved in such anarchist "protests" is advisable for Christians, you are definitely wrong. Poor diagnoses Doctor...

Read the Bible passages I cited to see if they espouse anarchist sentiments.

[Stan]

So if a CEO gets $100,000,000 bonus after cutting the pensions of the workers on the other end.

We should be ok with that?

Jesus said he came to free to oppressed. I kinda support that.

Who's in?

[ClubV12]

The key is how do we support the poor and who are the worthy poor that we should support?

Sister White does give us some guidelines in determining who the worthy poor are. For instance, she says we should NOT be involved in alcohol treatment centers, as a church. Some individuals may be called to that work and may God bless their efforts. She also talks about those needing help should be willing to get counsel on things like a budget, and if there not willing to do so, we can't help them. What about the needy who are spending money on vices?

I recently got up in the middle of the night to help a lady who was strained (ran out of gas) and was at a gas station but had no money. She wanted $10 cash, so she could buy just enough gas to get home AND some cigarettes. I paid at the pump, $10 for gas for her. Another family I've been helping on and off I recently found out has a gambling problem. Unless the father takes steps to deal with that, I can't help them anymore.

I have a lady that attends a bible study class I'm doing in the neighborhood. I call her before hand and remind her she is not welcome if she shows up under the influence. I will not allow her to attend the study (other people are there). Bless her heart, she IS doing much better, but she still occasionally falls off the wagon.

I see our work in our neighborhoods and uniting with civil and church groups within our community to help the poor.

I don't have a clue what to do about the Hedge Fund CEO with the multi million bonus, but it won't be carrying a sign and protesting his income.

[abelisle]

I agree with you Stan but I think the problem is a moral one not an economic one and that's why this movement seems to be confused about creating a workable political agenda.

Just how does one rally against greed, selfishness, usury, self-aggrandizement, fiscal corruption etc. ?

Capitalism isn't evil. It's how those who work within the system make morally corrupt choices. But at least one thing about this is good. It's getting the attention of the masses and those who are guilty of abusing the trust society puts on them to spend/trade/invest our money wisely and not for self.

Alex

[CoAspen]

Remember.....

"Fear is a darkroom where misconceptions develop"

Bolding is 'highlighting', all caps is yelling!!!

[miz3]

So if a CEO gets $100,000,000 bonus after cutting the pensions of the workers on the other end.

We should be ok with that?

Jesus said he came to free to oppressed. I kinda support that.

Who's in?

I don't think the "CEO who gets a hundred million dollar bonus after cutting the pensions of the workers on the other end" is necessarily "free".

I believe that regardless of the tangible assets a person may or may not have determines whether they are "oppressed" or "not oppressed".

I believe all humans have been "oppressed" and God is the only One who can free us. It is not economic condition that determines whether one is "oppressed" or "not oppressed". Economic condition does not determine whether we humans are enslaved or free either. Economic conditions do not determine whether a person has peace and contentment or not as well.

John chapter fourteen Jesus Christ said "that He gives us peace not as the world gives us peace but He gives it unto us" (my paraphrase). Jesus Christ gives it to us "free of charge".

No amount of economic prosperity can bring us that kind of peace. No amount of economic prosperity can free us from any and all oppression.

ONLY GOD CAN FREE US.

[phkrause]

I don't believe that the OWS are so much against the rich and their riches. My take is that they are fed up with a system that is rigged. I am convinced that Wall St. is rigged by the 1% to benefit the 1% against the 99%, abetted by those in their pockets in Washington.

I agree Gerry. I have no problem with people making millions of dollars or even billions. My problem is with those that make there money while squashing or stepping on others to make that money. Taking there businesses overseas so they can hire people for $2.00 or less and than sell those same goods for outragios markups, while not having to pay one penny in taxes. While those living in the USA who have to pay extra in taxes to make up for them. And I definitely agree that those protesting really have no idea why there there, obviously some do but the majority really don't, they just have nothing better to do. And those protesting in the 60s, they had no glue either, I know, I knew lots of them. It reminds me of the story of when they crucified Jesus. How many of them really knew what they were really doing??

[ClubV12]

Companies moving over seas.

phk, that may be an example of how the system is "rigged", if we want to use that word. Publicly traded companies, by law, have a duty (legal obligation) to maximize return for the share holders. These companies moved overseas for various reasons but the #1 reason was to increase profits, because thats what the law requires of them to do! Another reason is the very high corporate tax rate the USA has compared to most other countries. So their the bottom line increases due to lower tax IF they move over seas. The tax rate for an individual is much different than for a corporation.

Would they move anyway if they were a private company? Sure, they just couldn't hide behind the "law". In that case it would be greed, pure and simple, or in some cases. just reality if they expect to compete and survive in the market place.

Things we COULD DO, (but aren't likely too):

Don't support companies that moved over seas by investing in their stock or buying their products. That comes under the heading of "Buy American" and invest in America. The problem with not buying their product is we really are in a global market. It's extemely tough anymore to separate whats foreign and whats not. Honda's are made in America for the most part, etc. etc. What IS made in America?? Of course there are many products that truly are, but there swamped by the imports that compete with them.

We know "greed" will increase, thats a given, not much anyone can do about it. What we CAN do, is reach our neighbors, our city and towns with the three angels message. A few, some, will actually listen, it is for those few for whom we labor.

No easy way out of this "rigged" economic global mess...

The POPE offers his solution: Global currency and tax rates administered through the United Nations counsel. OK, I wasn't scared until I typed THAT out, but now I've moved in the dark room and fear is slowly developing. :)

[CoAspen]

noun

an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat

When we refuse to listen...

When we dismiss their concerns...

When we marginalize someone...

When we attach unrelated outcomes...

Now we have misconceptions about that individual based on our preconceived thoughts of them, yes, fear begins to set in. A really old concept, not original with myself.

[ClubV12]

I admit it, I'm just a little bit afraid of the Pope and his global economy idea. And you can bet survivalist, now stocking ammo and reinforcing their hide-a-way, are equally concerned. :)

[lazarus]

The Bible urges us to be patient until the coming of the Lord, not to take things into our hands and make protests, etc. Those verses are telling us that the Lord's coming is the only real solution to the problems of the world.

I always thought there was something impatient about that Martin Luther King dude and Martin Luther for that matter. Hmmmm.

Praise the Lord for Christians who are willing to get up from the pews and onto the pavement, from behind the stained glass onto the streets.

[doug yowell]

God is not against the "rich" either. In fact God actually in the Bible made people "rich". However, like everyone else God expects rich, to follow His Rules.

And if they don't it's ok for Christians to join together with anyone who attempts to force them to by burning their businesses, and generally running roughshot over the whole system!! Seems like there should be a better way for Christians to change the mindset of both those who ignore the plight of the less wealthy and those who are envious of the lifestyle choices that they condemn.Don't forget that most of the beneficiaries of that millionaire's selfishness are those who make their living from feeding those opulant desires. Wonder why no one's rioting over the hundreds of thousands of American jobs that the construction industry, food service industry, ect... are giving to lower paid illegal workers here in the USA? No need for the company to relocate.This world is full of inequities and the rich are no more culpable than the poor. Don't think OWS and it's myriad alias's will help things much using that approach.

[CoAspen]

Yes, the Bible is full of people who choose not to sit by and say, "Lord, when did we see you without food, without clothes, with out....etc, etc".

Tis so easy to sit by and say 'it doesn't concern me', 'how do I know who the needy really are', 'give them a Bible study' and we will sit around expanding our intellect about what the 'truth' is....wait a minute...wasn't there a group already doing that in Christs day? What did he call them...it slips my mind at the moment?

[ClubV12]

'how do I know who the needy really are'....

Good question, HOW do you know? Is EVERYONE deserving of financial aid, food, housing always, no matter what?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

God is not against the "rich" either. In fact God actually in the Bible made people "rich". However, like everyone else God expects rich, to follow His Rules.

And if they don't it's ok for Christians to join together with anyone who attempts to force them to by burning their businesses, and generally running roughshot over the whole system!! Seems like there should be a better way for Christians to change the mindset of both those who ignore the plight of the less wealthy and those who are envious of the lifestyle choices that they condemn.Don't forget that most of the beneficiaries of that millionaire's selfishness are those who make their living from feeding those opulant desires. Wonder why no one's rioting over the hundreds of thousands of American jobs that the construction industry, food service industry, ect... are giving to lower paid illegal workers here in the USA? No need for the company to relocate.This world is full of inequities and the rich are no more culpable than the poor. Don't think OWS and it's myriad alias's will help things much using that approach.

I wasn't saying that it was OK for us humans to punish the "selfish" rich. In fact I am saying that is God's job and not always ours. I don't support OWS. I don't think those people know two cents worth of truth.

Morality is not determined by economics. Unfortunately the template seems in some minds:

Rich=bad Poor=good

Morality by economics is not Biblical. A person's economic/social standing has nothing to do with their moral standing before God.

What I did say was that God expects everyone regardless of economic/social/political/etc. standing to follow His Rules or God will take care of the guilty.

In fact for us to focus only on the rich to vent our moral goodness is not only not Biblical but very dangerous.

Christians should be aware of this dangerous pitfall of morality by economics.

[Gerr]

The key is how do we support the poor and who are the worthy poor that we should support?

That does not address the underlying cause of the problems. Wall St. is rigged by morally and ethically corrupt people, and abetted by too many people in gov't.

[John317]

The Bible urges us to be patient until the coming of the Lord, not to take things into our hands and make protests, etc. Those verses are telling us that the Lord's coming is the only real solution to the problems of the world.

Originally Posted By: lazarus

I always thought there was something impatient about that Martin Luther King dude and Martin Luther for that matter. Hmmmm.

Praise the Lord for Christians who are willing to get up from the pews and onto the pavement, from behind the stained glass onto the streets.

God didn't raise up the SDA church for the purpose of doing the kinds of things being done in OWS.

There are many and important things that people do in the world, such as MLK did, but that doesn't mean God wants SDAs to do them.

As for Martin Luther, his work was primarily concerned with proclaiming the gospel, not with politics or with anything like Wall Street.

We definitely should be out in the streets but to preach and teach the Three Angels Messages, not making protests and demonstrations like the world.

Quote:

There is a large vineyard to be cultivated; but while Christians are to work among unbelievers, they are not to appear like worldlings. They are not to spend their time talking politics or acting politics; for by so doing they give the enemy opportunity to come in and cause variance and discord. {CCh 316.5}

Quote:

God's children are to separate themselves from politics, from any alliance with unbelievers. Do not take part in political strife. Separate from the world, and refrain from bringing into the church or school ideas that will lead to contention and disorder. Dissension is the moral poison taken into the system by human beings who are selfish. 570 {CCh 316.6}

[Overaged]

In your last quote; she uses the specific term "political strife." Therefore, I am wondering if that includes some political activities where there is none of this "strife?"

What is the context of that quote? Who was she talking to and why?

[Overaged]

'how do I know who the needy really are'....

Good question, HOW do you know? Is EVERYONE deserving of financial aid, food, housing always, no matter what?

Sometimes you can't worry about that stuff. You just have to feed people because they are hungry. Period.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

The key is how do we support the poor and who are the worthy poor that we should support?

That does not address the underlying cause of the problems. Wall St. is rigged by morally and ethically corrupt people, and abetted by too many people in gov't.

So are the unions which make up a disproportionate % of the governmental workers that would be the regulators of any governmental oversight. Where does one begin to right the situation when those spearheading the process have exactly the same moral values? I see the real problem as originating in the greed,and envy of all.When money and ease of life becomes the ultimate goal of a people it becomes the root of all kinds of evil. One of the missing pieces in this puzzle is the fact that many of the less wealthy want a piece of the pie that they really don't need. They simply aren't content with the number of perks that they already have. They think little of thankfulness and content.I haven't followed this story in depth but it seems like many of those protesting are college students who are already living off government dollars and daddy's generosity. Am I wrong?

[doug yowell]

I wasn't saying that it was OK for us humans to punish the "selfish" rich. In fact I am saying that is God's job and not always ours. I don't support OWS. I don't think those people know two cents worth of truth.

Morality is not determined by economics. Unfortunately the template seems in some minds:

Rich=bad Poor=good

Morality by economics is not Biblical. A person's economic/social standing has nothing to do with their moral standing before God.

What I did say was that God expects everyone regardless of economic/social/political/etc. standing to follow His Rules or God will take care of the guilty.

In fact for us to focus only on the rich to vent our moral goodness is not only not Biblical but very dangerous.

Christians should be aware of this dangerous pitfall of morality by economics.

I knew that. My tongue got stuck in my cheek for a moment. I was reminded of God's warning in Ex.23:3,6 and I agree with everything you've said so far,I think.

[ClubV12]

"That does not address the underlying cause of the problems. Wall St. is rigged..."

Moral failings are at the heart of the problem of the "rigging". We know this will get worse and increase. God is holding back the four winds and at times he will use groups and individuals to accomplish do this. Not all CEO's, politicians and stock brokers have bowed the knee to Baal, as it were. We need to be looking to Him to figure out what part we are to play in all this.

"You just have to feed people because they are hungry."

Sometimes you do, like when there's a famine in Africa or an emergency situation. For a long term solution you need to be organized, thoughtful and have a solid plan in order to reach as many as you can, for as long as you can, with limited funding (money, food, labor, energy).

[Overaged]

"Long-term" solutions are sometimes out of sight, and impossible. Sometimes you just have to feed them because thay are hungry...Our great need is the reason for calvary, not our worthiness. We must have the same salvation that we bring to others. Even if it's just in a cup of soup or a loaf of bread.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

'how do I know who the needy really are'....

Good question, HOW do you know? Is EVERYONE deserving of financial aid, food, housing always, no matter what?

Sometimes you can't worry about that stuff. You just have to feed people because they are hungry. Period.

Even if they are spending what money they do have on beer, cigarettes, and big cable T.V.? Even if they refuse to go someplace where they could be employed or taken care of by their family?

[ClubV12]

In the case of the "Good Samaritan" that was an emergency situation. A famine is an emergency situation. At times a family is out of food at the end of the month, and it MAY be their own fault, but it's still an emergency situation.

What if there out of food AGAIN, next month and every month after that because they gambled or drank the money away? Follow the bible principle, "don't work. don't eat". The hungry will figure out what to do when they get hungry enough, your not helping them by feeding them all the time. Your encouraging their bad behaviour, your supporting their gambling, drinking, smoking and vices. Don't be an "enabler".

SOME poor cannot be expected to change much or at all. The lame, the mentally handicapped, some widows, some elderly. We need to be wise to discern the when, where and who the "worthy poor" are and how best to help them. How best to help in emergency situations (regardless of fault). We have biblical principles and Sister White counsel given to us from God to help with this discernment.