Should we show an interest in the OWS movement?

[Overaged]

Pretty hard to make all that fancy eutopian theology stick when someone is hungry.

Maybe Jesus thinks I am unworthy too, because I have not been "good."

[miz3]

So are the unions which make up a disproportionate % of the governmental workers that would be the regulators of any governmental oversight. Where does one begin to right the situation when those spearheading the process have exactly the same moral values? I see the real problem as originating in the greed,and envy of all.When money and ease of life becomes the ultimate goal of a people it becomes the root of all kinds of evil. One of the missing pieces in this puzzle is the fact that many of the less wealthy want a piece of the pie that they really don't need. They simply aren't content with the number of perks that they already have. They think little of thankfulness and content.I haven't followed this story in depth but it seems like many of those protesting are college students who are already living off government dollars and daddy's generosity. Am I wrong?

No Doug you are not wrong. You are indeed very correct.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I wasn't saying that it was OK for us humans to punish the "selfish" rich. In fact I am saying that is God's job and not always ours. I don't support OWS. I don't think those people know two cents worth of truth.

Morality is not determined by economics. Unfortunately the template seems in some minds:

Rich=bad Poor=good

Morality by economics is not Biblical. A person's economic/social standing has nothing to do with their moral standing before God.

What I did say was that God expects everyone regardless of economic/social/political/etc. standing to follow His Rules or God will take care of the guilty.

In fact for us to focus only on the rich to vent our moral goodness is not only not Biblical but very dangerous.

Christians should be aware of this dangerous pitfall of morality by economics.

I knew that. My tongue got stuck in my cheek for a moment. I was reminded of God's warning in Ex.23:3,6 and I agree with everything you've said so far,I think.

Thanks. I like what you say as well.

[ClubV12]

"Maybe Jesus thinks I am unworthy too, because I have not been "good.""

I agree, that, sadly could be the case, and will be for most. We have freedom of choice and not all will be found "worthy", if you want to use that word, choose carefully.

[CoAspen]

In the case of the "Good Samaritan" that was an emergency situation. A famine is an emergency situation. At times a family is out of food at the end of the month, and it MAY be their own fault, but it's still an emergency situation.

What if there out of food AGAIN, next month and every month after that because they gambled or drank the money away? Follow the bible principle, "don't work. don't eat". The hungry will figure out what to do when they get hungry enough, your not helping them by feeding them all the time. Your encouraging their bad behaviour, your supporting their gambling, drinking, smoking and vices. Don't be an "enabler".

SOME poor cannot be expected to change much or at all. The lame, the mentally handicapped, some widows, some elderly. We need to be wise to discern the when, where and who the "worthy poor" are and how best to help them. How best to help in emergency situations (regardless of fault). We have biblical principles and Sister White counsel given to us from God to help with this discernment.

Wow!!!!

Didn't realize there was a "filter" for worthiness. Would love to see the list of questions on the worthy vs unworthy form. What committee decides on the included questions?

I can see it now....Two Pearly Gates in Heaven, one marked Worthy and one marked Unworthy.....want to bet the line forms behind the Unworthy Gate??

[Gerr]

I saw something online about the faces of those protesters. Most of those shown are not young college students.

[ClubV12]

The young college students were way in the back,,, rolling joints and scheming how they could get the Government to pay for their student loans. :)

[doug yowell]

Pretty hard to make all that fancy eutopian theology stick when someone is hungry.

Even harder when the recipient thinks the world owes him a living (ala "Goofy")and refuses to work. Supplying them with free food merely frees up the funds that they do have to spend on life threatening activities.

[doug yowell]

I saw something online about the faces of those protesters. Most of those shown are not young college students.

Like I said, I'm not all over this story, just heard snippets here and there,saw a brief story on Yahoo news of the Oakland group. Who are these people, what is their purpose, and what are their methods?

[doug yowell]

Maybe Jesus thinks I am unworthy too, because I have not been "good."

the Bible account is pretty clear that even true welfare has it's restrictions. The poor in the OT were to be included in the national prosperity by leaving some of the food in the fields unharvested (particularly every 7th year). It was then the duty of the poor to go and do their own harvesting (remember Naomi & Ruth?). For those that are able there is great dignity in helping one's own cause. In the NT Paul warned that the church was not to help those widows(hungry or not)who were capable of providing for themselves. He also forbade giving free food to those who refused to work. What do you think Jesus didn't pick up the crippled man's bed and take it to his house for him?

[Jack Chaffin Jr]

Yes, the Bible is full of people who choose not to sit by and say, "Lord, when did we see you without food, without clothes, with out....etc, etc".

Tis so easy to sit by and say 'it doesn't concern me', 'how do I know who the needy really are', 'give them a Bible study' and we will sit around expanding our intellect about what the 'truth' is....wait a minute...wasn't there a group already doing that in Christs day? What did he call them...it slips my mind at the moment?

The OWS groups are not advocating that people personally be kinder and more concerned with helping people in need - they are advocating that GOVERNMENT do it. They are advocating, in some places, that rich people be "hung" simply because they are rich, on the Marxist assumption that all the rich are evil. When Jesus told us to remember the poor, He wasn't talking about making our government do it. He was talking about us, personally, doing it. Effort made toward making a government "more compassionate" results, usually, in making it more tyrannical. I don't see how a Christian can suport the OWS.

[Dottie]

Agreed

[Neil D]

God didn't raise up the SDA church for the purpose of doing the kinds of things being done in OWS.

There are many and important things that people do in the world, such as MLK did, but that doesn't mean God wants SDAs to do them.

As for Martin Luther, his work was primarily concerned with proclaiming the gospel, not with politics or with anything like Wall Street.

We definitely should be out in the streets but to preach and teach the Three Angels Messages, not making protests and demonstrations like the world.

Yeah, it's a good thing not to be involved with other people voicing thier concerns...Like those pesky SDAs who helped with the underground railroad to allow black men to obtain thier freedom...Tis a good thing that our leaders didn't get involved in that...

[/tic]

[ClubV12]

Ya got to choose your battles wisely HB. I fail see anywhere near the connection between a protest group over Wall St. and at the same time begging for Government aid and slavery.

But if "anything" goes, I'm getting a sign made up right away to protect those rare bugs threatened by the latest housing development. Those greedy land developers will just have to lay off the entire construction crew to save those poor little bugs. Who's with me??? Grab your pitchforks, lanterns, picket signs and lets assemble in front of city hall!

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Pretty hard to make all that fancy eutopian theology stick when someone is hungry.

Even harder when the recipient thinks the world owes him a living (ala "Goofy")and refuses to work. Supplying them with free food merely frees up the funds that they do have to spend on life threatening activities.

Next time you work in a soupline somewhere; you'll be one of the "true remnant" with the "truth about welfare ministry;" checking everyone's income tx forms to see who is "worthy."

You are sucking at straws on this one my boy

[ClubV12]

Uh oh,,, soupline, he's got me now, I'll have to give it up.

...but if I see that guy leaving the soup line and driving away in his Cadillac...

I actually DID that once. I wanted to discreetly check out a soup line in Sacramento, so I dressed the part (poor) and literally parked my Cadillac a few blocks away. I had a nice lunch. Satisfied they were doing a great job, I left them a hefty tip. So, don't be to quick to Judge that guy driving a Cadillac from the soup line, it might be me... :)

[Overaged]

Yes; you are right on. We are way too quick to judge the rich as "unworthy"

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Yes, the Bible is full of people who choose not to sit by and say, "Lord, when did we see you without food, without clothes, with out....etc, etc".

Tis so easy to sit by and say 'it doesn't concern me', 'how do I know who the needy really are', 'give them a Bible study' and we will sit around expanding our intellect about what the 'truth' is....wait a minute...wasn't there a group already doing that in Christs day? What did he call them...it slips my mind at the moment?

The OWS groups are not advocating that people personally be kinder and more concerned with helping people in need - they are advocating that GOVERNMENT do it. They are advocating, in some places, that rich people be "hung" simply because they are rich, on the Marxist assumption that all the rich are evil. When Jesus told us to remember the poor, He wasn't talking about making our government do it. He was talking about us, personally, doing it. Effort made toward making a government "more compassionate" results, usually, in making it more tyrannical. I don't see how a Christian can suport the OWS.

AMEN, AND AMEN AGAIN!

[Gerr]

The OWS groups are not advocating that people personally be kinder and more concerned with helping people in need - they are advocating that GOVERNMENT do it.

Why is that? Because Christians have not followed the Master's command to love their neighbor as themselves. And there are not enough of those who do care to meet all the needs of the destitute, so the government has to step in.

Quote:

They are advocating, in some places, that rich people be "hung" simply because they are rich, on the Marxist assumption that all the rich are evil. When Jesus told us to remember the poor, He wasn't talking about making our government do it. He was talking about us, personally, doing it. Effort made toward making a government "more compassionate" results, usually, in making it more tyrannical. I don't see how a Christian can suport the OWS.

NOT ALL rich people have tainted riches. But look at this list and see why a lot of people have become suspicious about rich people.

List of businessmen who were called robber barons

John Jacob Astor (real estate, fur)—New York City

Andrew Carnegie (steel)—Pittsburgh and New York

Jay Cooke (finance)—Philadelphia

Charles Crocker (railroads)—California

Daniel Drew (finance)—New York

James Buchanan Duke (tobacco)— Durham, North Carolina

James Fisk (finance)—New York

Henry Morrison Flagler (railroads, oil, the Standard Oil company)—New York and Florida[6]

Henry Clay Frick (steel)—Pittsburgh and New York City

John Warne Gates (barbed wire)

Jay Gould (railroads)--New York[7]

Edward Henry Harriman (railroads)—New York[8]

Mark Hopkins (railroads)—California

Andrew W. Mellon (finance, oil)—Pittsburgh

J. P. Morgan (finance, industrial consolidation)—New York City

Henry B. Plant (railroads)—Florida

John D. Rockefeller (oil), Cleveland, New York

Charles M. Schwab (steel) Pittsburgh and New York

John D. Spreckels (sugar)— California

Leland Stanford (railroads)—California

Joseph Seligman (banking)

Cornelius Vanderbilt (water transport, railroads)--New York[9]

Charles Tyson Yerkes (street railroads)--Chicago.[10]

Add to that the Ken Lays, Goldman-Sachs, Joseph Kennedy, and how many more? The robber barons are still living and well.

[cardw]

Didn't even need to read the thread to know which way it'd go...

Sunday Law is so far off topic it's not funny.

OWS is somewhat chaotic, but it's basically about social justice, and that is a massive concern of Jesus and of the whole Bible.

Have a look at what the Bible says about usury, as just one example.

And about our treatment of the poor, as another.

Never ceases to stun me, the ability of (many) Christians to automatically leap to the less-Biblical side of *any* issue.

I think Jesus was pretty radical about the redistribution of wealth for his followers.

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

That doesn't seem to be a popular sermon in most Christian Churches. LOL

[Overaged]

I think Jesus was pretty radical about the redistribution of wealth for his followers.

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

That doesn't seem to be a popular sermon in most Christian Churches. LOL

LOL; cardw you are so right! I appreciate many of the one liners you come up with like this!!

[SivartM]

I think Jesus was pretty radical about the redistribution of wealth for his followers.

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

That doesn't seem to be a popular sermon in most Christian Churches. LOL

Not to mention that the early church was communistic, and gave all of their money to the central agency for fair distribution.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I think Jesus was pretty radical about the redistribution of wealth for his followers.

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

That doesn't seem to be a popular sermon in most Christian Churches. LOL

Not to mention that the early church was communistic, and gave all of their money to the central agency for fair distribution.

That was small scale, very small scale.

That is quite different from the Feds doing it on such a mass scale as dealing with hundreds of millions of people.

Second the Early Church was a LOCAL entity close to the people not the Feds who are very far from the people they deal with.

It's a big big big vast difference between the two. The two situations are not even anywhere near equal.

Third God required that of the Rich Young Ruler and did not require such a thing from all people.

[Overaged]

Uh oh,,, soupline, he's got me now, I'll have to give it up.

...but if I see that guy leaving the soup line and driving away in his Cadillac...

I actually DID that once. I wanted to discreetly check out a soup line in Sacramento, so I dressed the part (poor) and literally parked my Cadillac a few blocks away. I had a nice lunch. Satisfied they were doing a great job, I left them a hefty tip. So, don't be to quick to Judge that guy driving a Cadillac from the soup line, it might be me...

If it is you; I'll give you an extra sandwhich; but you would have to come to Canada to be in my soupline, and where would you get money for gas in the Caddy?

I think that we should show an interest in the OWS movement, now that i read all of this thread; plus all the time I have just spent viewing various video footage online.

But the way we need to show interest is only in the sense of replacing that mob mentality with something better. And getting that 'something better" message out to the public.

I have watched many videos on this and in every one of them I noticed one common denominator. It seemed like the more confrontational ones were rehearsing scripts of some kind - that it was well planned and orchestrated.

The news media does not seem to report it in an unbiased way with most videos and articles I have read so far calling the police "Nazi Cops;" and accusing them of "brutality." But I don't agree with those accusations in this case; none of the footage I saw showed anything close to brutality. The cops have to do something when they are stuck with a mob who only wants to hold the general public hostage and harass them and wreck stuff like a bunch of hoodlums. If that's OWS, which is all I have seen so far; then it does not even come anywhere close to what we are being spoonfed with.

[olger]

"It was not the purpose of God that poverty should ever leave the world. The ranks of society were never to be equalized; for the diversity of conditions which characterizes our race is one of the means by which God has designed to prove and develop character. Many have urged with great enthusiasm that all men should have an equal share in the temporal blessings of God; but this was not the purpose of the Creator. Christ has said that we shall have the poor always with us. The poor, as well as the rich, are the purchase of His blood; and among His professed followers, in most cases, the former serve Him with singleness of purpose, while the latter are constantly fastening their affections on their earthly treasures, and Christ is forgotten. The cares of this life and the greed for riches eclipse the glory of the eternal world. It would be the greatest misfortune that has ever befallen mankind if all were to be placed upon an equality in worldly possessions" (CH 230).